Figuring Out Religion

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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:41 am

PBS presented a very good movie recently - Martin Luther: The Idea that Changed the World. Those interested in history and/or the Reformation might have interest.

“The goal of the film is to lead the nation’s conversation about the 500th anniversary of the Reformation,” said co-producer Mike Trinklein. “On one hand, it’s a great adventure story, with chase scenes, kidnappings, political intrigue and life-or-death decisions. At the same time, it’s a story about the most important questions of life, including, ‘Who am I? What is my purpose?’ and ‘How do I get right with God?’ Our goal is to weave both elements together in a way that satisfies Lutherans and piques the curiosity of the secular world.”

http://www.pbs.org/show/martin-luther-i ... ged-world/
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:50 am

Good article about our assumptions: https://thejaggedword.com/2017/10/26/da ... sumptions/

<snip> "We all do it. We all assume things. We assume things about our friends and family, about strangers and perceived enemies. Assumptions function as a sort of lazy shortcut so that we don’t have to do the hard work of actually engaging in the details of an argument or the context of a statement. It’s easier to assume things are written or spoken with a particular agenda in mind and then speed to our judgment. ........."
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Libertarian666 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:27 pm

I finally have something to contribute to this thread: http://tech-novelist.com/tag/NIQM/?order=asc
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:54 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:I finally have something to contribute to this thread: http://tech-novelist.com/tag/NIQM/?order=asc
I don't think I ever said so, but I had read your blog a while back. Interesting to say the least. You need to contribute more to this topic. O0
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Libertarian666 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:00 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Libertarian666 wrote:I finally have something to contribute to this thread: http://tech-novelist.com/tag/NIQM/?order=asc
I don't think I ever said so, but I had read your blog a while back. Interesting to say the least. You need to contribute more to this topic. O0
Thanks. I'm trying to figure out how to spread the good word that we almost certainly don't really die, based on the nature of reality as disclosed by quantum mechanics. Any thoughts on how to do this would be most welcome.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:17 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:
Libertarian666 wrote:I finally have something to contribute to this thread: http://tech-novelist.com/tag/NIQM/?order=asc
I don't think I ever said so, but I had read your blog a while back. Interesting to say the least. You need to contribute more to this topic. O0
Thanks. I'm trying to figure out how to spread the good word that we almost certainly don't really die, based on the nature of reality as disclosed by quantum mechanics. Any thoughts on how to do this would be most welcome.
Ever read this? Buckle your seat belt. ;) https://www.amazon.com/Quantum-Physics- ... near+death

Or this? https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/178 ... ed-to-hear

Maybe you could write a book. Go for it.
Last edited by Mountaineer on Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:43 pm, edited 4 times in total.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Libertarian666 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:18 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Libertarian666 wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:
I don't think I ever said so, but I had read your blog a while back. Interesting to say the least. You need to contribute more to this topic. O0
Thanks. I'm trying to figure out how to spread the good word that we almost certainly don't really die, based on the nature of reality as disclosed by quantum mechanics. Any thoughts on how to do this would be most welcome.
Ever read this? Buckle your seat belt. ;) https://smile.amazon.com/Quantum-Physic ... um+physics

Or this? https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/178 ... ed-to-hear

Maybe you could write a book. Go for it.
Thanks.

I have not read either of those, but I certainly will read the first one.

As for the second one, I have nothing against Christianity but I don't think it can be demonstrated scientifically.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:53 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:
Libertarian666 wrote:
Thanks. I'm trying to figure out how to spread the good word that we almost certainly don't really die, based on the nature of reality as disclosed by quantum mechanics. Any thoughts on how to do this would be most welcome.
Ever read this? Buckle your seat belt. ;) https://smile.amazon.com/Quantum-Physic ... um+physics

Or this? https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/178 ... ed-to-hear

Maybe you could write a book. Go for it.
Thanks.

I have not read either of those, but I certainly will read the first one.

As for the second one, I have nothing against Christianity but I don't think it can be demonstrated scientifically.

Re. the second one, correct! That is why faith is so important. If one can demonstrate it scientifically, there is no need for faith, except faith in the one who is proposing something or faith in the repeatability of experiments. Have you considered almost everything requires faith (with the possible exception of what you have seen yourself, except if you are in the matrix you may perceive fiction as fact)? Eg. faith in someone else's comments or speculation, faith in some scientist's "discovery", faith in logic, etc.? We weird humans tend to just have faith in the things/people/ideas that make sense to us - everything else is just so much noise emanating from that alternate universe. ;)
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Libertarian666 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:46 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Libertarian666 wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:
Ever read this? Buckle your seat belt. ;) https://smile.amazon.com/Quantum-Physic ... um+physics

Or this? https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/178 ... ed-to-hear

Maybe you could write a book. Go for it.
Thanks.

I have not read either of those, but I certainly will read the first one.

As for the second one, I have nothing against Christianity but I don't think it can be demonstrated scientifically.

Re. the second one, correct! That is why faith is so important. If one can demonstrate it scientifically, there is no need for faith, except faith in the one who is proposing something or faith in the repeatability of experiments. Have you considered almost everything requires faith (with the possible exception of what you have seen yourself, except if you are in the matrix you may perceive fiction as fact)? Eg. faith in someone else's comments or speculation, faith in some scientist's "discovery", faith in logic, etc.? We weird humans tend to just have faith in the things/people/ideas that make sense to us - everything else is just so much noise emanating from that alternate universe. ;)
My plan is to propose a hypothesis that can be experimentally tested.

So it isn't a "normal" religion that requires faith.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Michellebell » Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:40 pm

For me becoming a Christian has the most to do with what kind of life I choose to live while I'm still alive. In a nutshell, I can live for myself, the way I always used to, or I can live my life to serve God by doing my best to follow the teachings of Jesus.

I simply do not see any other point to being here on this planet with all this good and evil here simultaneously, if not to make a choice between the two.

I was raised by atheists and never went to church growing up. I eventually examined several different religions and had some issues with certain aspects of Christianity for quite a few years. But over the past several years, I kept coming back to Christianity and the teachings of Jesus. I just kept recognizing truth in what is stated in the Bible and in the parables.I still haven't settled on a particular denomination because I agree with some aspects of some denominations more than others. I also am still unsure about my beliefs or understandings of quite a few things. But Jesus also said in the Bible that it's good to be humble and like a child, so I think it's good to be open-minded and not expect to know all the answers. That one is hard for me as I'm the type who likes to research and understand everything.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Maddy » Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:23 am

Libertarian666 wrote: I'm trying to figure out how to spread the good word that we almost certainly don't really die, based on the nature of reality as disclosed by quantum mechanics. Any thoughts on how to do this would be most welcome.
Tech, I would be interested in knowing your view on the nature of such existence. I think we can all agree that even after death we continue to "exist" forever as a pile of carbon atoms, but that's not what anybody's really talking about when they postulate that we continue to "be" even after death. To "be," in any meaningful sense, requires not only consciousness, but consciousness of self. How does quantum mechanics, or any other model, account for consciousness of self or suggest that it continues after death?

And if it's not consciousness of self that you're talking about, but rather some enigmatic "existence" of which "self" has no meaning, why would it make sense to even talk about such existence as a continuation of "me?"
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Libertarian666 » Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:30 am

Maddy wrote:
Libertarian666 wrote: I'm trying to figure out how to spread the good word that we almost certainly don't really die, based on the nature of reality as disclosed by quantum mechanics. Any thoughts on how to do this would be most welcome.
Tech, I would be interested in knowing your view on the nature of such existence. I think we can all agree that even after death we continue to "exist" forever as a pile of carbon atoms, but that's not what anybody's really talking about when they postulate that we continue to "be" even after death.
No, that's not what I'm talking about at all. Life is superior to matter, just as a chess player is superior to the chess pieces he plays with. What happens to the chess player after the game is over? Does he die at that point?
Maddy wrote:
To "be," in any meaningful sense, requires not only consciousness, but consciousness of self. How does quantum mechanics, or any other model, account for consciousness of self or suggest that it continues after death?
QM requires something outside of the apparent physical universe that we see around us. What that "something" is, however, is not at all well-understood. I'm proposing a model for that "something": http://tech-novelist.com/tag/NIQM/?order=asc. Have you read it?
Maddy wrote:
And if it's not consciousness of self that you're talking about, but rather some enigmatic "existence" of which "self" has no meaning, why would it make sense to even talk about such existence as a continuation of "me?"
If you lost all of your memories, would you still be you?
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Maddy » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:23 am

Libertarian666 wrote: If you lost all of your memories, would you still be you?
This is something I think about a lot, since I have a parent with late-stage dementia. When you realize that progressive degeneration of the brain can cause a person to not only lose their most significant memories but to undergo such a profound change in personality as to no longer bear any resemblance to the person they once were, it does pose a challenge to the idea of an eternal, non-physical "self."
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by sweetbthescrivener » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:58 am

Maddy wrote:
Libertarian666 wrote: If you lost all of your memories, would you still be you?
This is something I think about a lot, since I have a parent with late-stage dementia. When you realize that progressive degeneration of the brain can cause a person to not only lose their most significant memories but to undergo such a profound change in personality as to no longer bear any resemblance to the person they once were, it does pose a challenge to the idea of an eternal, non-physical "self."
Since this is the religion thread, I would propose that all of this is far more mysterious than a simple logical proposition of being yourself if you have no memory.

I am no expert on this, though I do have some personal experiences during retirement home visits, of the concept of "Terminal Lucidity."

Again, not saying this is proof of a soul or anything else, but, strangely, there are often reports of people whose brain long ago turned into Swiss cheese, who, just before they die, have a final few moments of complete lucidity before they go.


https://www.huffingtonpost.com/stafford ... 63492.html
An elderly woman never speaks, no longer recognizes her loved ones when they come to visit, and shows no expression. By the looks of her, she is a human vegetable. And she’s been this way for over a year. Her brain’s cerebral cortex and hippocampus — necessary for memory, thought, language, and normal consciousness — are severely shrunk. Her brain bears little resemblance to a healthy one.

Yet something utterly astonishing is about to happen. As reported by both the nursing staff of her care unit and her family members: “Unexpectedly, she calls her daughter and thanks her for everything. She has a phone conversation with her grandchildren, exchanges kindness and warmth. She says farewell and shortly thereafter dies.”

Similar cases have been scattered side notes in the medical literature, but recently a small body of researchers, such as Bruce Greyson, professor of psychiatry and neurobehavioral sciences at the University of Virginia, and Michael Nahm in Freiburg, Germany, have begun to take a careful look at the phenomenon and agreed to call it terminal lucidity, or TL. Professor Alexander Batthyany, who teaches cognitive science at the University of Vienna, is currently running a large-scale study on the phenomenon — the first of its kind. He is sending out detailed questionnaires to caregivers of Alzheimer’s victims, mostly nurses and medical doctors, and as the questionnaires trickle in, new mysteries arise as fast as older ones are clarified. The case cited above comes from Batthyany’s database.

Almost all brain scientists have assumed up until now that a severely-damaged brain makes normal cognition impossible. But Batthyany’s preliminary results, presented at the annual IANDS Congress in Newport, California, last month, suggests that normal cognition, or lucidity, does occur in spite of a severely-damaged brain — not often, but in about 5-10 percent of Alzheimer’s cases. And only when death is very near.
Make of it what you will. For me this points to a theory of a persistent soul existing alongside of, and submerged under whatever is going on with the brain. Again though, I am not making that claim for anyone else or the world in general. Only for my own spiritual world view.

I was once visiting a relative in a nursing home, and one day this totally vegetative, slumped over woman I had seen many times, straightened up, opened her eyes, and gave a five minute speech about how beautiful the rest home was, and how beautiful all the souls were there, and how we could all meet each other on a spiritual level and be friends. An eloquent, beautiful speech, and darned if it didn't feel spiritual in a direct way, as if an messenger from God had taken over her body for a second to give us hope, and then disappeared.

You could feel goosebumps to hear this formerly mute, inert figure speak with such eloquence and authority, and when it was over, it was over, and she was gone, just a form in a wheelchair in a corner for all the rest of the days I went there.

This is the way of faith though, coming in an inspired moment, and then disappearing, impossible to share in any meaningful way, and too elusive to nail down in theory. Only there in your memory--yeah that really happened--and then gone.

When I hear accounts like this, in scientific journals or personal testimonies, I smile to myself, been there myself brother, just for a second, and then it is back to all the elements of what can be seen and can be heard and most importantly what can persist.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Libertarian666 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:12 pm

interactive processing wrote:Libertarian666 very interesting blog post, it does seem to conform to the understanding that eastern religion and a mystical interpretation of western religion would give for life and the nature of existence. i am not sure that individual identity after death can be proven, it seems that only the continued existence of life after death is implied by the theory, the appearance individuality or self seems (to me) to be a function of making choices and moving from one static universe to the next creating time, if one is dead and not moving through static universes you would have no perception of time or self, wouldn't you return to a state of "life itself" as opposed to having life/self/individuality (moving in time) after death?
Actually it is exactly the other way around. The ability to create time is a consequence of being alive. And if my hypothesis is fruitful, there is no such thing as being dead.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Libertarian666 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:26 pm

interactive processing wrote:the "no such thing as being dead" does seem to follow the hypothesis, and that life continues after an individuals body stops living seems to follow the hypothesis as well, but i am not sure how the continuation of the individual does? if the "phone line" interconnectedness of life is revealed through quantum physics, and the perception of time is based on having an individual point of perception from a body, how do you know you will have an individual point of perception after the body is gone and not a universal (become the phone line?) timeless state of life instead?
Of course I don't know with certainty. But it seems to me that continuity of individuality matches up better with both the likelihood of conservation laws that I expect by analogy with physics, and with countless reports of near-death experiences.
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Happy Reformation Day!

Post by Xan » Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:31 pm

It was 500 years ago today, on the eve of All Hallows in 1517, that Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the church door. That event is considered to be the start of the Reformation of the Christian Church, and was a turning point in both church and world history.

Happy Reformation Day everyone!
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:06 pm

Yep, a significant move forward towards hospitals, separation of church and state, and much more that many haven’t been educated about.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by farjean2 » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:29 pm

Desert wrote:Here's an article on Luther that I read recently, and seems appropriate to put here on this day, and in this current period in our country:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/arti ... sh-problem
Glad to see a Christian acknowledge the dark side of Luther. I don't believe it's a stretch to say he bears a lot of responsibility for the holocaust.

I would also suggest you turn the same honest spotlight on some other antisemitic writings from which Luther drew his inspiration - namely the gospels.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by farjean2 » Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:45 pm

Desert wrote:
farjean2 wrote:
Desert wrote:Here's an article on Luther that I read recently, and seems appropriate to put here on this day, and in this current period in our country:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/arti ... sh-problem
Glad to see a Christian acknowledge the dark side of Luther. I don't believe it's a stretch to say he bears a lot of responsibility for the holocaust.

I would also suggest you turn the same honest spotlight on some other antisemitic writings from which Luther drew his inspiration - namely the gospels.
God works through some very flawed people, throughout history.

I still give Nietzsche and his ideas more credit for the holocaust than Luther. But yes, Luther's views and comments regarding Jews certainly didn't help.

What gospel passages are you thinking are antisemitic?
Too numerous to list but probably not hard to find with the help of Google. See all the references to "The Jews" in a negative connotation, especially in the gospel of John. And then there is the story of Barabbas, the murderer who was released by Pilate when he offered to let Jesus go.
Can you actually envision a rabid crowd of all the Jews in Jerusalem saying "crucify Him" and "His blood be upon us and our children forever"? In the first place, it's preposterous to think that there was such a custom of letting a convicted criminal go free to celebrate the holiday so it's pretty obvious to me that somebody was just making up a story for dramatic effect. And by the time that story was written it would appear that the antisemitism found in early Christianity was already beginning to take hold.

If you believe the gospels are of divine origin, it's probably going to be hard to see it but for someone on the outside looking it, it's pretty obvious.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Michellebell » Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:49 pm

Maddy wrote:
Libertarian666 wrote: If you lost all of your memories, would you still be you?
This is something I think about a lot, since I have a parent with late-stage dementia. When you realize that progressive degeneration of the brain can cause a person to not only lose their most significant memories but to undergo such a profound change in personality as to no longer bear any resemblance to the person they once were, it does pose a challenge to the idea of an eternal, non-physical "self."
I can't prove any of this of course, but I think that dying after having a change like this would be like waking up after a dream. There was only one time in my life where I was feeling so sick I was delirious. I was 18 and had a fever and so confused that I was dreaming but not realizing that I was dreaming. I was asking my mother questions and remember she was getting scared as to how sick I must have been. But I recovered and was completely back to myself in no time. People also have concussions and act very strange but then go back to normal. They are still themselves after all of that.

I also remember reading an analogy comparing our physical bodies to a television. Say the television starts to malfunction and the screen does not show the image as well. Does that mean that the show has fundamentally changed? When the television completely breaks, does that mean there is nothing to be transmitted anymore? No, of course not. There is still something there.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by farjean2 » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:22 pm

Michellebell wrote:I also remember reading an analogy comparing our physical bodies to a television. Say the television starts to malfunction and the screen does not show the image as well. Does that mean that the show has fundamentally changed? When the television completely breaks, does that mean there is nothing to be transmitted anymore? No, of course not. There is still something there.
Not the greatest analogy, I think. If the television completely breaks, the show goes on but the receiver is no longer partaking in it.

Personally, I think it will be nice to find out that Libertarian666 is right and that isn't the end but I'm sure I won't be too disappointed if I just cease to exist. When I was young, that thought really scared me but after a lifetime of practicing it every night it doesn't seem so bad.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Libertarian666 » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:34 pm

Michellebell wrote:
Maddy wrote:
Libertarian666 wrote: If you lost all of your memories, would you still be you?
This is something I think about a lot, since I have a parent with late-stage dementia. When you realize that progressive degeneration of the brain can cause a person to not only lose their most significant memories but to undergo such a profound change in personality as to no longer bear any resemblance to the person they once were, it does pose a challenge to the idea of an eternal, non-physical "self."
I can't prove any of this of course, but I think that dying after having a change like this would be like waking up after a dream. There was only one time in my life where I was feeling so sick I was delirious. I was 18 and had a fever and so confused that I was dreaming but not realizing that I was dreaming. I was asking my mother questions and remember she was getting scared as to how sick I must have been. But I recovered and was completely back to myself in no time. People also have concussions and act very strange but then go back to normal. They are still themselves after all of that.

I also remember reading an analogy comparing our physical bodies to a television. Say the television starts to malfunction and the screen does not show the image as well. Does that mean that the show has fundamentally changed? When the television completely breaks, does that mean there is nothing to be transmitted anymore? No, of course not. There is still something there.
I use the analogy of chess-playing but your analogy is just as good.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Libertarian666 » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:35 pm

farjean2 wrote:
Michellebell wrote:I also remember reading an analogy comparing our physical bodies to a television. Say the television starts to malfunction and the screen does not show the image as well. Does that mean that the show has fundamentally changed? When the television completely breaks, does that mean there is nothing to be transmitted anymore? No, of course not. There is still something there.
Not the greatest analogy, I think. If the television completely breaks, the show goes on but the receiver is no longer partaking in it.

Personally, I think it will be nice to find out that Libertarian666 is right and that isn't the end but I'm sure I won't be too disappointed if I just cease to exist. When I was young, that thought really scared me but after a lifetime of practicing it every night it doesn't seem so bad.
I'm pretty sure you won't be disappointed if you just cease to exist. :D
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by farjean2 » Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:10 am

Libertarian666 wrote:I'm pretty sure you won't be disappointed if you just cease to exist. :D
Exactly my point.
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