Figuring Out Religion

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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:44 am

I think fundamentally it breaks down into whether saving faith causes good works, or whether faith plus good works lead to salvation.

I doubt anybody who has an entrenched position on this is likely to change it, so I think we're done with this conversation for a while. But, it started with Murphy asking why anybody would look anywhere other than the Roman church.

For me, the reasons are:
* The Roman church departed from the teachings of the Bible and the Fathers into works righteousness
* We are charged to reject even an angel from heaven preaching a different gospel
* The Lutheran tradition (as practiced by faithful congregations) retains all the benefits of the Catholic church (primarily, the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist) while keeping the Gospel (which is supposed to be "good news", remember) of Christ's saving work for us at the very center of everything.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by vnatale » Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:45 am

Since I just made a post in this topic here is a question forall that I have been wanting to ask for a while ....

No matter what you believe, i.e.,

1) When you die that is it
2) Catholicism in whatever form you believe
3) Bible believing Christianity in whatever variations you believe
4) Buddhism
5) Islam
6) Anything else

..... IF what you believe is true in all the aspects you believe of it ...then do you these constitute spiritual laws in the same way we live under the laws of physics?

No matter what anyone believes regarding the law of physics ... physics does not care. No matter how much one may not believe in gravity .... one WILL be subject to gravity.

Therefore, if all you believe ends up being true .... do you believe that every human on the planet is subject to all that goes along with what you believe (whether they believe it or not or have some alternatives beliefs)?

I'm not asking what your beliefs are. But if whatever you believe applies universally to everyone -- today and in the future?
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Dec 11, 2021 11:39 am

vnatale wrote:
Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:45 am
Since I just made a post in this topic here is a question forall that I have been wanting to ask for a while ....

No matter what you believe, i.e.,

1) When you die that is it
2) Catholicism in whatever form you believe
3) Bible believing Christianity in whatever variations you believe
4) Buddhism
5) Islam
6) Anything else

..... IF what you believe is true in all the aspects you believe of it ...then do you these constitute spiritual laws in the same way we live under the laws of physics?

No matter what anyone believes regarding the law of physics ... physics does not care. No matter how much one may not believe in gravity .... one WILL be subject to gravity.

Therefore, if all you believe ends up being true .... do you believe that every human on the planet is subject to all that goes along with what you believe (whether they believe it or not or have some alternatives beliefs)?

I'm not asking what your beliefs are. But if whatever you believe applies universally to everyone -- today and in the future?
.


Christianity hinges on the resurrection of Jesus, of which there is quite a lot of evidence, evidence, not proof. If somehow Jesus' resurrection is ever disproved, there goes Christianity. Until then, Jesus says in John 14:6 "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." I believe his use of the definite article "the" instead of the indefinite article "a" indicates His statement applies universally to everyone.

.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by murphy_p_t » Sat Dec 11, 2021 12:08 pm

Vinny wrote:

From my knowledge ....

Catholicism is referred to as the "step-ladder" religion. If you do all these steps (to some unspecified quality level) then you might make be allowed into Heaven.


It may be referred to that by the enemies of Christ, who remain outside of the Church, either through malice or ignorance. Please let me know if you can find this doctrine in a reliable Catholic catechism.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by vnatale » Sat Dec 11, 2021 7:03 pm

murphy_p_t wrote:
Sat Dec 11, 2021 12:08 pm

Vinny wrote:

From my knowledge ....

Catholicism is referred to as the "step-ladder" religion. If you do all these steps (to some unspecified quality level) then you might make be allowed into Heaven.


It may be referred to that by the enemies of Christ, who remain outside of the Church, either through malice or ignorance. Please let me know if you can find this doctrine in a reliable Catholic catechism.


I shall try to be brief (as I can be) here.

Being 100% Italian I went to a Roman Catholic church from the ages of 7 to 19 years old.

I called myself a "devout" Catholic. Why? Because not only did I go to church EVERY Sunday but I also went on those odd week days during the year which were called "Holy Days of Obligation".

Why did I go to either? Because we were told that missing church was a mortal sin. If you died with an unconfessed mortal sin then you went directly to Hell.

That is why I refer to Catholicism as the "fear" religion.

My church was HUGE! Mine was where the Italian-Americans went to while we shared a parking lot with a church where the Irish-Americans went to. I'd estimate they had about 3,000 in their congregation. We had 10,000! There were simulataneous services each Sunday (upstairs and downstairs) which started quite early in the day.

We never shown a Bible. That was for "The Protestants".

All I remember from that whole experience is "Jesus, Jesus, Lamb of God."

I know that my momentous sermon EVER there BY FAR was when the head priest did not give a message but, instead, went over the entire church finances - income and expenses for the past year. I was quite alert for that and was fascinated by it. That was a portending of me realizing at least 10 years later that I was cut out to be an accountant.

I also described both my Catholic and other Catholics I observed as belonging to a religion that was confined to that time on Sunday you were in the church. There was absolutely no carryover into how one behaved in one's personal life.

In January, February 1974 I read through the entire BIble (Living Bible version) from page one of the Old Testament to the last page of the New Testament.

I discovered that there was no basis for any of the Catholic doctrines we'd been taught in Catholic Cathecism classes such as:

Priests cannot marry

The concept of Nuns

Mortal and venial sins

Purgatory

Confessing your sins to a priest

Not being able to eat on Fridays (I remember being shaken as a 12 year old when that changed. I asked myself how could you got to Hell last year for eating meat on Friday but this year you do not? Where are the absolutes in this religion?)

Mary being anything special outside of the Mother of Jesus.

Any concept of all the saints

Paying money to light candles and praying to get someone out of Purgatory sooner.

So I'm like one of those ex-smokers who are now really obnoxious around people who smoke. That is the way I am towards the Catholic religion.

I fully believe that the Catholic Church to be a cult. It perfectly fits the definition of a cult. It has some elements of the truth from the Bible but then it makes up too much of its own un-Biblical doctrine and leads people astray from the real truth.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Vil » Sun Dec 12, 2021 2:43 am

vnatale wrote:
Sat Dec 11, 2021 7:03 pm
I also described both my Catholic and other Catholics I observed as belonging to a religion that was confined to that time on Sunday you were in the church. There was absolutely no carryover into how one behaved in one's personal life.
That's right to the spot. Moreover, based on my observations the people that tend to have religious aspirations (mild believers) are normally the ones that need least moral 'navigations'. If most of the followers of any religion can really stick to what's been a common intersection in all of the doctrines - 'humility' - the world would look quite opposite to what it is.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mark Leavy » Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:10 pm

Happy Solstice everyone.

I usually like to spill a little wine on a nice oak tree during the solstices, but this year I settled for a majestic palm.

I think I'll head over to La Paz tomorrow. I do enjoy a good Mexican Catholic Christmas.

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Festivus

Post by Mark Leavy » Thu Dec 23, 2021 10:32 pm

Today is a sacred day for the rest of us.

And I got a lot of problems with you people!

Start your pushups.
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Re: Festivus

Post by barrett » Fri Dec 24, 2021 6:06 am

Mark Leavy wrote:
Thu Dec 23, 2021 10:32 pm
Today is a sacred day for the rest of us.

And I got a lot of problems with you people!

Start your pushups.
The annual airing of the grievances! Just dusting off the old pole (I still find that the Christmas tree stand is the best way to keep it upright. Adding water is optional). Happy Festivus everyone!
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Dec 25, 2021 12:07 pm

Merry Christmas to all! Celebrate the Good News.

From the First Testament
Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

From the Second Testament
Luke 2:10-14
And the angel said to them, “Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. And this will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in swaddling cloths and lying in a manger.” And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying, “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among those with whom he is pleased!”

From our Sermon today: "No Surprise Here!" (based on Hebrews 1:1-12)
God interacts with His creation in unusal ways. Noah’s ark - God drowns evil. Baalam’s ass - God talks through a donkey. God talks via the prophet Isaiah. God talks through John the Baptizer. God continued to do the unexpected in the human form of Jesus, the temple, teaching in the temple. God continued doing the unexpected - the promise of Genesis 3:14-15 is fulfilled by Jesus on the cross defeating Satan and death to save humanity. (Genesis 3:14-15 So the Lord God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, Cursed are you above all livestock and all wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life. And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”)
God acts in unusual ways. Everything has changed because of Jesus, no surprise here!

.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by seajay » Sat Dec 25, 2021 1:38 pm

God the creator and put into perspective https://youtu.be/M4M6wlBjU38 one lifeform on a tiny spec (our solar system) in a tiny branch of the Milky way being his son ... IMO is a man made creation, where millions have died in arguments about belief/interpretation. Offset by the good that places of gathering can provide - community, sense of belonging, help from/giving help to others that might otherwise not be known to you.

I was born into Catholicism but have matured into being indifferent. My Muslim neighbours are equally as happy to say Happy Christmas as I am to say Eid Mubarak (Happy Eid) .. despite the PC crew suggesting we should both be saying happy holidays or suchlike.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by murphy_p_t » Sun Dec 26, 2021 8:35 am

Isn't the phrase "happy holidays" the perfect embodiment of the religious indifferentism / apostasy which you embrace?
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Sun Dec 26, 2021 6:29 pm

seajay wrote:
Sat Dec 25, 2021 1:38 pm
God the creator and put into perspective https://youtu.be/M4M6wlBjU38 one lifeform on a tiny spec (our solar system) in a tiny branch of the Milky way being his son ... IMO is a man made creation, where millions have died in arguments about belief/interpretation. Offset by the good that places of gathering can provide - community, sense of belonging, help from/giving help to others that might otherwise not be known to you.

I was born into Catholicism but have matured into being indifferent. My Muslim neighbours are equally as happy to say Happy Christmas as I am to say Eid Mubarak (Happy Eid) .. despite the PC crew suggesting we should both be saying happy holidays or suchlike.
seajay, It appears you were influenced by a version Christianity that emphasized works, "be like Jesus", i.e. "what would Jesus do?", that emphasizes ethics as the means to salvation; that view is common to all religions, perhaps like your Muslim neighbors were taught. It is unfortunate that you were not exposed to an interpretation of Scripture that taught Jesus is our Savior, i.e. what He did for us sinners who are dead in our sins. Doing evil "in the name of God" is not consistent with Scripture (1 Peter 3:15). Without God and a true understanding of His Word, man has done, does, and will likely do horrible things to our fellow man. Man can do absolutely nothing to save himself or participate in his being saved. I'm sorry you were steeped in that view of "ethical behavior required for salvation" (if my understanding of what you said is correct).

You might like this discussion about our little piece of the universe - Answering Arguments against Christianity: Science Has Disproven the Existence of God – Dr. John Warwick Montgomery, 12/26/21. https://issuesetc.org/2021/12/26/3601-a ... -12-26-21/

I'm sorry if I misunderstood your comments. Blessings on this second day of Christmas.

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DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mark Leavy » Sun Dec 26, 2021 9:12 pm

Happy Boxing Day to all!

This is a day well spent in fox hunting or betting on the horses at the tracks.

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And, of course, make sure to leave a box of leftovers for the servants before heading out with the horses.

Good luck to all!
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mark Leavy » Sun Dec 26, 2021 9:49 pm

I was a mere lad when some Californian (torturer of women) dude invented Kwanzaa. But a lucky man I was to be there when history was born after the Watts riots.

When I think of all of the transparently thin also ran holidays that attempt to hitch a free ride on the glory of the Solstice Debauchery, I think Kwanzaa is my favorite. It had a slow start, but the debauchery has been rising to the occasion in recent years. It's the strong horse to bet on.

No one expects the toaster.

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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:30 am

.

Christmas cannot be separated from the birth of Jesus Christ. The national holiday is about Christ's birth no matter what the forces of political correctness say. Yes, its fine for Jews to celebrate Hanukkah, but the national holiday is Christmas. In our present time there are those among us who want to deny that Christianity is a force for good in the world. Indeed, some have called Christianity a “White Supremacist” religion, which is to say that it is a religion that oppresses others. I suspect that this irrational and uninformed understanding of Christianity will only become more and more twisted as time goes on.

Christianity is unique among the religions of the world and that is certainly part of the reason for the rejection of Christianity by so many. In reality there are only three religions that exist in the world.

There are religions that are based on keeping the law in order to make God happy with you. (Buddhism, Islam, Mormonism, Hinduism, Janism, Animistic religions, etc.)

It is uniquely Christianity that informs us that keeping the law just won't work because no one can do it. It simply isn't possible to “un-sin” once we've committed a sin and just one sin makes us unholy and unfit to be in the presence of a holy and righteous God. What's more, sin isn't merely what we do or fail to do, it is the natural condition of human kind. We are, by nature, sinful and unclean. This is why we can't keep the law and why we need a Savior, not merely a good example to follow. Christianity simply cannot exist without Christ!

God understood that unless He took unilateral action to redeem his fallen creatures that they would be lost and condemned forever. You see, God cannot ignore sin. He can’t “wink” at sin and pretend it doesn't exist because that would violate His own nature since He is Holy and Just. Sin needs a payment rendered for it. Since mankind was unable to render that payment without spending eternity in hell, God sent His only eternal Son who actually was Holy to suffer the punishment that we had coming to us for our sins. His Son is Jesus, the Christ of God. It was for this purpose of redeeming His creatures that Christ suffered as a human and as a sinless man/God, only His sacrifice on the cross was of such value that it rendered adequate payment for sin for us all. Scripture tells us that in some way unseen by human eyes, Christ suffered the punishment of eternal life in hell for all of humanity while He hung of Golgotha's cross. He went to hell for us!

In this way, out of love for His creatures, God saved us from what we deserved and grants to all whose faith rests in Christ's sinlessness and His rendered payment for sin as sufficient to cancel our debt to God and once again, we are made His holy and eternal children forever. So, religions of the law cannot give you what you need. You cannot earn your way into heaven. Christ has already accomplished that for us.

I said there are three religions in the world. There is also the religion of atheism. I call it a religion because it is also based on faith. It is based on faith that despite the intricate, inter-balanced, interdependent creation all around us, an atheist must have faith that it all just kind of fell into place by some cosmic accident. Atheism rejects any notion of a Creator, it rejects any thinking about an afterlife, and it assumes that this world and this momentary life is all there is. When you die you simply become manure for whatever comes next on the evolutionary journey. One must wonder why the suicide rate among atheists isn't much higher than it already is? From an atheist's point of view about the best that can be said of life is that you have a hope to die leaving the world a bit better than when you showed up. Good luck with that! For Atheists, Christmas is simply a waste of time, energy, and money.

So, Christmas is all about Christ. Christmas is all about life. Christmas is God coming to earth to save us all from ourselves. With that understanding, how can Christians possibly say anything other than have a blessed and merry Christmas!

Rev. Richard A. Bolland

http://www.lutherquest.org/cgi-bin/discus40/discus.cgi

.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Hal » Wed Dec 29, 2021 11:10 pm

Well this link arrived in my inbox.

Never heard of this person before, and not even sure what an Arch-Bishop does, but it makes for an interesting read.
https://www.thelibertybeacon.com/archbi ... an-people/
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Jan 03, 2022 12:02 pm

"Were I to choose an auspicious image for the new millenium (RB N.B.: even the new year), I would choose that one: the sudden agile leap of the poet-philosopher who raises himself above the weight of the world, showing that with all his gravity he has the secret of lightness, and that what many consider to be the vitality of the times - noisy, aggressive, revving and roaring - belongs to the realm of death, like a cemetery for rusty old cars." Italo Calvino.

The New Year, rededicated daily to Christ, is a continuous New Life because of His grace, mercy and salvation for us. Rejoice and be glad in it! (Randy Bosch)
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by murphy_p_t » Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:26 pm

Today is The Epiphany of the Lord. Meaning manifestation. To the Magi, that is to the gentiles.

There was a question previously about the prophecies which foretold the Christ. From today's mass in the Roman missal...In today's epistle, taken from Isaias chapter 60, we read that they will come bringing gold and frankincense and showing forth praise of the Lord. Following on that, is the famous passage from Matthew chapter 2 of the three wise men visiting the Lord , following His star, bearing gifts of gold and frankincense. The magi, representing the gentile Nations, adore the Christ child.

Earlier in the same passage, we read that King Herod, inquires of the chief priests and scribes of where the Messiah shall be born. They inform him that it is Bethlehem of Juda, as foretold in the Old testament.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:10 pm

murphy_p_t wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 3:26 pm
Today is The Epiphany of the Lord. Meaning manifestation. To the Magi, that is to the gentiles.

There was a question previously about the prophecies which foretold the Christ. From today's mass in the Roman missal...In today's epistle, taken from Isaias chapter 60, we read that they will come bringing gold and frankincense and showing forth praise of the Lord. Following on that, is the famous passage from Matthew chapter 2 of the three wise men visiting the Lord , following His star, bearing gifts of gold and frankincense. The magi, representing the gentile Nations, adore the Christ child.

Earlier in the same passage, we read that King Herod, inquires of the chief priests and scribes of where the Messiah shall be born. They inform him that it is Bethlehem of Juda, as foretold in the Old testament.
Really what we celebrate today is that Jesus is the light of the whole world, including the Gentiles. Epiphany was the original gift-giving occasion. Happy Epiphany!
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by vnatale » Sat Jan 22, 2022 9:14 pm

Tonight I read this from Martin Luther for the first time.

It seems that this points out an inconsistency between the beliefs of the Christian "right" who seem to hold in pure disdain almost anything done by the government?

http://www.lutherdansk.dk/Martin%20Luth ... 020306.htm


These three ways of dealing, then, are a masterly keeping of the commandments not to presume upon the future nor to put trust in any man or in self, but to depend solely on God. In this way everything is paid in cash and the word of James is applied, “If God will, so be it.” In this way we deal with people as with those who may fail and are unreliable; we give our money without profit and take the risk that what we lend may be lost.

But here someone will say: “Who then can be saved and where shall we find Christians? Nay, in this way there would be no trade in the world; everyone would have his property taken or borrowed and the door would be thrown open for the idle gluttons, of whom the world is full, to take everything with their lying and cheating.” I reply: I have already said that Christians are rare in the world; therefore the world needs a strict, hard temporal government that will compel and constrain the wicked not to steal and rob and to return what they borrow, even though a Christian ought not demand it, or even hope to get it back. This is necessary in order that the world may not become a desert, peace may not perish, and trade and society may not be utterly destroyed: all which would happen if we were to rule the world according to the Gospel and not drive and compel the wicked, by laws and the use of force, to do and suffer what is right. We must, therefore, keep the roads open, preserve peace in the towns, and enforce law in the land, and let the sword hew brisky and boldly against the transgressors, as Paul teaches in Romans 13:4. For it is God’s will that those who are not Christians shall be held in check and kept from doing wrong, at least with impunity. Let no one think that the world can be ruled without blood; the sword of the ruler must be red and bloody; for the world will and must be evil, and the sword is God’s rod and vengeance upon it.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:15 am

This article may be of interest in addressing Vinny's comments above. I highlighted a couple of key thoughts. Probably a couple of the current "government acting against God's Word" concerns Roe vs. Wade (condoning murder) and endorsement of LGBTQ+ (sexual morality).

Genius and Courage
January 5, 2015 / Letter From the President, The Magazine / By Matthew Harrison /
Late in 1821, Rev. Frederick Schaeffer presided over the cornerstone laying of a new building for the Evangelical Lutheran Church of St. Matthew* in New York City. Afterward, he sent his homily to James Madison, the “Father of the U.S. Constitution,” and chief author of the Bill of Rights. Pastor Schaeffer’s address was rather strongly Lutheran, in spite of the general weakness of American Lutheranism prior to 1840. Madison replied:

Montpellier, Dec. 3rd ,1821

Revd Sir,–I have received, with your letter of November 19th, the copy of your address at the ceremonial of laying the corner-stone of St Matthew’s Church in New York.

It is a pleasing and persuasive example of pious zeal, united with pure benevolence and of a cordial attachment to a particular creed, untinctured with sectarian illiberality. It illustrates the excellence of a system which, by a due distinction, to which the genius and courage of Luther led the way, between what is due to Caesar and what is due God, best promotes the discharge of both obligations. The experience of the United States is a happy disproof of the error so long rooted in the unenlightened minds of well-meaning Christians, as well as in the corrupt hearts of persecuting usurpers, that without a legal incorporation of religious and civil polity, neither could be supported. A mutual independence is found most friendly to practical Religion, to social harmony, and to political prosperity.

In return for your kind sentiments, I tender assurances of my esteem and my best wishes.
James Madison

Schaeffer had struck several notes that resonated with Madison, so much so that the aging former president and constitutional patriarch noted “a due distinction, to which the genius and courage of Luther led the way, between what is due to Caesar and what is due God, best promotes the discharge of both obligations.” Wow. The drafter of the Bill of Rights, including the First Amendment (“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”), wrote, “The genius and courage of Luther led the way.”

What is the “due distinction” “between what is due to Caesar and what is due to God”? This is a reference to Luther’s two kingdoms doctrine. Historic, pre-Reformation Catholicism perpetuated the myth of the “Donation of Constantine”–that the Emperor Constantine (ca. A.D. 317) had given authority to the papacy to rule the Roman Empire, and that the Church was supposedly given the divine right and authority to govern both itself and the world. This was used to justify all sorts of mischief through the centuries following, where the Church meddled in governmental affairs and vice versa.

A second approach emerged at the time of the Reformation among the so-called radical reformers. They asserted that society should be ruled only by the Bible. This led to either a radical withdrawal from participation in civil society (e.g., the Amish), or to the view that a “Christian government” is needed to institute biblical principles upon society (e.g., the Puritans and their legacy). The views of both the Roman Catholic as well as the radical reformers resulted in a “mixing the kingdoms.”

Luther’s view, however, is unique. In view of texts like “The truth shall make you free” (John 8:32) and “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and unto God what is God’s” (Matt. 22:21), Luther asserted that the conscience, the religious convictions of the individual Christian, belong to God and not the government. The Bible teaches two distinct realms.

The “right hand” realm or kingdom is that of the Church. In this kingdom there is to be no coercion, no force, no corporal punishment. It is a kingdom ruled solely by the Word of God in service to the Gospel of Christ. “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36). It is a kingdom whose glory is hidden in weakness, small numbers, persecution, reviling, etc. It makes no sense to reason whatsoever–things like “the resurrection of the body,” “baptismal regeneration,” “the body and blood of Christ,” in the Lord’s Supper, etc.

The “left hand” kingdom is temporal government. This kingdom, too, is established by God (Rom. 13:1–7). It flows form the Fourth Commandment (“Honor thy father and mother”). This kingdom operates not by revelation, but by reason or natural law. The Gentiles, “when they do the things of the law, demonstrate that the law is written on their hearts” (Rom. 2:14) The governing authorities “do not bear the sword in vain” (Rom. 13:4). Temporal government is established by God for maintaining good order, peace, to thwart evil (by just war and other means), etc. When government forbids the Gospel, however, or commands us to act against a Christian conscience informed by the inerrant Word of God, then “we must obey God rather than men” (Acts 5:29).

When natural law or reason is functioning properly, it agrees with the Ten Commandments. In fact, the law “written on the heart” is the point of contact with the Law revealed in the Ten Commandments. That’s why the preaching of the Law hits home with people who don’t know Christ. God designed it that way as preparation for the Gospel! When it is commonly said that America was founded as a “Christian Nation,” that is only true in the sense that the overwhelming number of the founders were Christians, and that they recognized the benefit Christianity affords government.

Our founders recognized that “Christian morality” agreed with reason and natural law (law evident to any reasonable person). What was new in America was that there was no nationally established church or religion. But from the beginning, the national government was favorably oriented toward religion and acted to promote it. Even Jefferson (who moved from Deism to Unitarianism) went to church every Sunday of his presidency at Christian services held in the House Chambers! Offering government facilities today for services would be viewed by many secularists and courts as a gross violation of the “separation of church and state.” Yet, there are dozens of such examples of our founders recognizing the great blessing of religion. For the government to thwart religion–so far as it contributes to morality and peace (and this is why orthodox Islam is problematic)–is foolish and self-destructive.

As James Madison indicated to Pastor Schaeffer, our founders had a view of the relationship of church and state that was much closer to Luther than that of modern secularists. The Church serves the state by providing a moral, charitable and decent people. The state serves the Church by providing peace and order, a context in which religious ends may prosper. The state is not to legislate matters of religious conscience. The church is not to meddle in the affairs of the state, nor is it to expect the state to operate according to anything other than sound reason.

“Luther rendered greater services to mankind. . . . At present it is more extensively admitted than formerly that no religious or political institution can be salutary and prosperous, unless it is established on the principles for which he become the successful champion.”

I agree with Pastor Schaeffer . . . and James Madison.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by vnatale » Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:54 am

Mountaineer wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:15 am

This article may be of interest in addressing Vinny's comments above. I highlighted a couple of key thoughts. Probably a couple of the current "government acting against God's Word" concerns Roe vs. Wade (condoning murder) and endorsement of LGBTQ+ (sexual morality).


When natural law or reason is functioning properly, it agrees with the Ten Commandments. In fact, the law “written on the heart” is the point of contact with the Law revealed in the Ten Commandments. That’s why the preaching of the Law hits home with people who don’t know Christ. God designed it that way as preparation for the Gospel! When it is commonly said that America was founded as a “Christian Nation,” that is only true in the sense that the overwhelming number of the founders were Christians, and that they recognized the benefit Christianity affords government.



Thanks for this. Just read it.

You cited two items: "Roe vs. Wade (condoning murder) and endorsement of LGBTQ+ (sexual morality)"

The above also stated that: "the overwhelming number of the founders were Christians".

What was the overlap of how many of them both fit into this category (were Christians) and who were also active slaveholders?

From the point of view of now and then would you have added as a third category -- slavery being legal in this country?
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:31 am

vnatale wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:54 am
Mountaineer wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:15 am
This article may be of interest in addressing Vinny's comments above. I highlighted a couple of key thoughts. Probably a couple of the current "government acting against God's Word" concerns Roe vs. Wade (condoning murder) and endorsement of LGBTQ+ (sexual morality).


When natural law or reason is functioning properly, it agrees with the Ten Commandments. In fact, the law “written on the heart” is the point of contact with the Law revealed in the Ten Commandments. That’s why the preaching of the Law hits home with people who don’t know Christ. God designed it that way as preparation for the Gospel! When it is commonly said that America was founded as a “Christian Nation,” that is only true in the sense that the overwhelming number of the founders were Christians, and that they recognized the benefit Christianity affords government.
Thanks for this. Just read it.

You cited two items: "Roe vs. Wade (condoning murder) and endorsement of LGBTQ+ (sexual morality)"

The above also stated that: "the overwhelming number of the founders were Christians".

What was the overlap of how many of them both fit into this category (were Christians) and who were also active slaveholders?

From the point of view of now and then would you have added as a third category -- slavery being legal in this country?
Personally, I do not think slavery as was practiced in 18th, 19th century, and earlier, in the US, Middle East, Africa, Asia etc. is consistent with the way God desires for us to live. I think slavery as discussed in the Bible frequently is not as we have come to understand it by today's secular standards, or by God's will for how we should live. Here is one view: https://www.biblestudytools.com/diction ... e-slavery/ I guess if I were forced to choose though, I'd pick a government that endorsed slavery over a government that endorses abortion. At least the slaves might have a chance to enjoy life, even if a miserable one while on on this earth.

Many actions/practices of the past we find abhorant by today's standards show how desparately man needs a Savior, i.e. what happens when man decides to be in charge instead of God being in charge (the list of examples is long - murder, stealing, sexual immorality, lying, putting ones self above others, desiring that which is not ours, etc.). God's promise of Genesis 3:14, 15 is important; much of the rest of the First Testament shows that God does a lot of strange things to bring the promise to fruition, e.g. brings the seed, Jesus, to save us as we are incapable of saving ourselves. Many actions/practices of our current society are equally abhorant; as Sarah Palin famously said, you can put lipstick on a pig but it is still a pig. It usually reduces to the fundamental question "Who is going to be God? God, or sinful man?" The answer we usually choose is the latter and the consequences are evident. Thanks be to God that those who have been given the gift of belief and trust in His Word are forgiven.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by murphy_p_t » Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:51 am

Mountaineer, this is a worthwhile contribution.

From your perspective, is there a particular church/state arrangement (current or historical) which exemplifies the ideals which you / Luther advocate?

In particular, I'm curious if you view the arrangement in the USA as the ideal, or is your ideal what exists or existed in one of the various Nordic countries.

(In this case, it's not a Socratic question.)
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