Figuring Out Religion

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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:20 am

For those of you who are interested in "why God permits suffering", the linked essay on Job by Todd Wilken may be of interest.

For those of you who are interested in "why Missouri Synod Lutheranism", the linked article by Ross Johnson may be of interest.

http://issuesetc.org/wp-content/uploads ... ER2013.pdf

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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:35 am

Desert,

Thanks for the link, sounds interesting and I'll have to check it out.  I read Tim Keller's bio, a fascinating man.

I may have mentioned this before but this site  http://www.whitehorseinn.org/  has interesting archived podcasts each about half an hour long (or listen on your computer).  The podcasts are by four pastors of different denominations and discuss a variety of subjects.  If you go to the link, be sure to check out the menu bar for "first time visitors" and  "the white horse inn" section that has information about the show hosts. 

... Mountaineer
Last edited by Mountaineer on Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Gosso » Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:24 pm

Desert wrote: Questioning Christianity - Session 1
http://new.livestream.com/accounts/3231 ... ts/2682018
Thanks for the link!  Here are the notes I took from the above presentation given by Tim Keller (with a couple quotes that I added):

Is there meaning to life?
-  With God there is a deep/rich meaning. (expands thinking and imagination)
-  Without God there is a shallow/arbitrary meaning. (limits thinking and imagination)

New experiment in society to create your own meaning:
-  Need to stop being so serious and stop worrying about the meaning of life.
-  Just have fun and stop thinking.  (“Let us eat and drink! For tomorrow we die!”? – St. Paul's comments on if Christianity is false). 
-  Become more animalistic, live the life of illusion.
-  Stay drunk on life, you won’t like being sober.  (Jesus: “I found them all drunk, and I did not find any of them thirsty. My soul ached for the children of humanity, because they are blind in their hearts and do not see, for they came into the world empty, and they also seek to depart from the world empty. But meanwhile they are drunk. When they shake off their wine, then they will change their ways.”? – Gospel of Thomas)

Created vs discovered meaning:
Self-created:
-  Less rational, more arbitrary
-  Less durable, will be destroyed by suffering or loss of object of desire (beauty, money, social status, health, career, family, etc).  Victor Frankl – Man’s Search for Meaning.

Other systems:
-  Stoicism: harden yourself, accept whatever happens (only the elite can sustain this).
-  Hedonism: Be selfish and do whatever makes you happy at the moment.
-  Relativism: There is no meaning, create your own.
-  Moralism: Follow a code of ethics.

Discovered
-  Christianity: personal relationship with Christ (personality of God)
-  Other religions: Can provide meaning beyond the material world, which also provides durability.
-  Tim Keller will discuss the differences in future lectures
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:12 am

Desert wrote:
Gosso wrote:
Thanks for the link!  Here are the notes I took from the above presentation given by Tim Keller (with a couple quotes that I added):
Thanks for the notes Gosso - nice summary.  I also liked his comment about how people don't come to a belief system merely based on evidence.  First they have to have some attraction to the belief before they'll be convinced by the evidence.  I think that's quite true.

I'm looking forward to part II.
Just finished watching Session 1.  Excellent.  Keller is a very calm, thoughtful, respectful, and believable speaker and obviously well acquainted with the subject matter.  I thought he did a really good job with the audience questions which were not softballs.  I thought his comments about why many in our culture are able to find meaning within  themselves instead of outside themselves (e.g. in a god) was interesting.  Basically he says it is because our culture is very prosperous; much of the rest of the world is well in tune with suffering, we are not.  When things go "bad" those who only find meaning within themselves will likely have a very hard time of it as there will be no external "bigger than me" to rely upon.   

On a side note, it was refreshing to watch and listen to the moderator who seemed interested in representing the speaker and the audience objectively - so unlike the talking heads that dominate cable and network news and politics with their own egocentric agendas.

I'm also looking forward to Part 2.  Thanks again Gosso for sharing.

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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Gosso » Sat Feb 01, 2014 10:47 am

While on the topic of "the meaning of life", I thought I'd link to David Foster Wallace's commencement address given in 2005, called "This is Water" (23 minutes):

Link to audio: http://youtu.be/PhhC_N6Bm_s

Link to text: http://moreintelligentlife.com/story/da ... -own-words

I believe Wallace was an atheist/agnostic, but had an amazing ability to cut through the bullshit and truly see what life in the modern era is about...it ain't pretty.  My generation is one raised primarily by TV and advertising, at some point we need to decide whether to submit to that culture or find our own path.

[quote=David Foster Wallace]Because here's something else that's weird but true: in the day-to-day trenches of adult life, there is actually no such thing as atheism. There is no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship. And the compelling reason for maybe choosing some sort of god or spiritual-type thing to worship--be it JC or Allah, be it YHWH or the Wiccan Mother Goddess, or the Four Noble Truths, or some inviolable set of ethical principles--is that pretty much anything else you worship will eat you alive. If you worship money and things, if they are where you tap real meaning in life, then you will never have enough, never feel you have enough. It's the truth. Worship your body and beauty and sexual allure and you will always feel ugly. And when time and age start showing, you will die a million deaths before they finally grieve you. On one level, we all know this stuff already. It's been codified as myths, proverbs, clichés, epigrams, parables; the skeleton of every great story. The whole trick is keeping the truth up front in daily consciousness.

Worship power, you will end up feeling weak and afraid, and you will need ever more power over others to numb you to your own fear. Worship your intellect, being seen as smart, you will end up feeling stupid, a fraud, always on the verge of being found out. But the insidious thing about these forms of worship is not that they're evil or sinful, it's that they're unconscious. They are default settings.

They're the kind of worship you just gradually slip into, day after day, getting more and more selective about what you see and how you measure value without ever being fully aware that that's what you're doing.[/quote]

I could literally watch David Foster Wallace interviews all day - here is another great one, "The Soul is not a Smithy" (28 minutes).

Tim Keller has mentioned David Foster Wallace a few times in his other lectures that I've seen.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Pointedstick » Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:28 pm

Mountaineer wrote: Just finished watching Session 1.  Excellent.  Keller is a very calm, thoughtful, respectful, and believable speaker and obviously well acquainted with the subject matter.  I thought he did a really good job with the audience questions which were not softballs.  I thought his comments about why many in our culture are able to find meaning within  themselves instead of outside themselves (e.g. in a god) was interesting.  Basically he says it is because our culture is very prosperous; much of the rest of the world is well in tune with suffering, we are not.  When things go "bad" those who only find meaning within themselves will likely have a very hard time of it as there will be no external "bigger than me" to rely upon.
This makes sense to me.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Gosso » Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:50 pm

interactive processing wrote: has anyone ever watched "pastor Melisa Scott"? i used to watch her show on TV and found it fascinating, she does biblical lessons using interpretation of passages from original language through to modern translations, http://www.pastormelissascott.com/ it is interesting to see how different reading of original language has effected different understanding and different translations of scripture.. not to many "religion" TV shows capture my attention hers is definitely different...

i haven't watched recently or watched from the website, you might have to check out the archive to find the shows that go into this, although almost all the ones i saw a few years ago did,  regardless of what passages/principals were being discussed ..
I watched the "Ministry of the Thorn" video.  I agree that the faults we have can actually be used to help us live a better life; they can humble us and perhaps even lead us towards God.  Carl Jung said the same thing, that depression, anxiety, etc can actually be a sign of a healthy soul that is trying to transform or break free of the limited thinking of the person.

As for how to translate and interpret the Bible, well, this is a tricky and touchy subject (it's the reason there are over 30,000 Christian denominations).  I personally don't take everything in the Bible literally, but rather see it as a tool to link my consciousness with Gods...if that makes any sense.  I don't see the entire Bible as an encyclopedia of scientific/historic facts, but rather as true literature.  For example the Books of Job and Jonah can be read as tales which convey truth, even though they are not telling us of historical events.  And for Genesis we can also assume that it is symbolically attempting to convey something that cannot easily be explained.  Blaise Pascal claimed that the entire Old Testament has a double meaning; the first being only of the material world, and the other of the spiritual world which is what Jesus taught his disciples.

It's all very weird.  The more I study Christianity the more I realize how little I know.  Which can be a bit terrifying, but also very freeing.

Here are a couple videos from the Catholic tradition on how to read and interact with the Bible, they are presented by Fr. Barron:
- Deep Misunderstandings about the Bible (7:36)
- Protestantism and Authority (8:00)
interactive processing wrote: its been awhile since i watched the show often but if i recall correctly, i suspect " tool to link my consciousness with Gods..." would be in keeping with her interpretations, i was pretty blown away with the knowledge of old languages and her ability to show the drift in meaning from one language to the next (IE Hebrew to Latin to English) and wrap it all up in a sermon that was not preachy or holy-roller or smarmy like most televised Christianity. what i get from biblical or other religions writings is probably "good enough" but i admire (and maybe envy a bit) the extra depth real scholarship and in this case language skills can seem to pull from a few "simple" passages.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Gosso » Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:47 pm

interactive processing wrote:
Gosso wrote:
As for how to translate and interpret the Bible, well, this is a tricky and touchy subject (it's the reason there are over 30,000 Christian denominations).  I personally don't take everything in the Bible literally, but rather see it as a tool to link my consciousness with Gods...if that makes any sense.  I don't see the entire Bible as an encyclopedia of scientific/historic facts, but rather as true literature.  For example the Books of Job and Jonah can be read as tales which convey truth, even though they are not telling us of historical events.  And for Genesis we can also assume that it is symbolically attempting to convey something that cannot easily be explained.  Blaise Pascal claimed that the entire Old Testament has a double meaning; the first being only of the material world, and the other of the spiritual world which is what Jesus taught his disciples.

It's all very weird.  The more I study Christianity the more I realize how little I know.  Which can be a bit terrifying, but also very freeing.

Here are a couple videos from the Catholic tradition on how to read and interact with the Bible, they are presented by Fr. Barron:
- Deep Misunderstandings about the Bible (7:36)
- Protestantism and Authority (8:00)
its been awhile since i watched the show often but if i recall correctly, i suspect " tool to link my consciousness with Gods..." would be in keeping with her interpretations, i was pretty blown away with the knowledge of old languages and her ability to show the drift in meaning from one language to the next (IE Hebrew to Latin to English) and wrap it all up in a sermon that was not preachy or holy-roller or smarmy like most televised Christianity.  what i get from biblical or other religions writings is probably "good enough" but i admire (and maybe envy a bit) the extra depth real scholarship and in this case language skills can seem to pull from a few "simple" passages.
I see this a lot, where someone will try to justify their opinion by saying this word should have been translated this or that way.  If it makes the passage more beautiful then I usually agree :)

Joseph Campbell always said he preferred the Latin translation of the Bible, which gave him the "pitch into the mystery". CS Lewis has made similar comments.

Tim Keller mentioned in his first lecture that the phrase "The Word was made flesh", has "word" which comes from the Greek for logos which means mind/will/intelligence of God.

Frig now i want to learn Latin. :)
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Feb 01, 2014 8:05 pm

Gosso wrote:
interactive processing wrote:
Gosso wrote:
As for how to translate and interpret the Bible, well, this is a tricky and touchy subject (it's the reason there are over 30,000 Christian denominations).  I personally don't take everything in the Bible literally, but rather see it as a tool to link my consciousness with Gods...if that makes any sense.  I don't see the entire Bible as an encyclopedia of scientific/historic facts, but rather as true literature.  For example the Books of Job and Jonah can be read as tales which convey truth, even though they are not telling us of historical events.  And for Genesis we can also assume that it is symbolically attempting to convey something that cannot easily be explained.  Blaise Pascal claimed that the entire Old Testament has a double meaning; the first being only of the material world, and the other of the spiritual world which is what Jesus taught his disciples.

It's all very weird.  The more I study Christianity the more I realize how little I know.  Which can be a bit terrifying, but also very freeing.

Here are a couple videos from the Catholic tradition on how to read and interact with the Bible, they are presented by Fr. Barron:
- Deep Misunderstandings about the Bible (7:36)
- Protestantism and Authority (8:00)
its been awhile since i watched the show often but if i recall correctly, i suspect " tool to link my consciousness with Gods..." would be in keeping with her interpretations, i was pretty blown away with the knowledge of old languages and her ability to show the drift in meaning from one language to the next (IE Hebrew to Latin to English) and wrap it all up in a sermon that was not preachy or holy-roller or smarmy like most televised Christianity.  what i get from biblical or other religions writings is probably "good enough" but i admire (and maybe envy a bit) the extra depth real scholarship and in this case language skills can seem to pull from a few "simple" passages.
I see this a lot, where someone will try to justify their opinion by saying this word should have been translated this or that way.  If it makes the passage more beautiful then I usually agree :)

Joseph Campbell always said he preferred the Latin translation of the Bible, which gave him the "pitch into the mystery". CS Lewis has made similar comments.

Tim Keller mentioned in his first lecture that the phrase "The Word was made flesh", has "word" which comes from the Greek for logos which means mind/will/intelligence of God.

Frig now i want to learn Latin. :)
LC-MS Pastors have to learn to read and speak Greek and Hebrew in Seminary so they can be reasonably proficient in the original languages.  I was impressed at the last District convention I attended when the President of the LC-MS got up and read (translated on the spot) and discussed a chapter from his Greek Bible.  My experience is when the Pastor knows the original language, he can do so much better understanding the nuances of the text vs. me sitting in a quiet corner reading in English.  Oh well .......

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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:15 am

Desert wrote:
interactive processing wrote: has anyone checked out the  "pastor Melisa Scott" link i posted above? i am curious what some of our well studied Christians take on her work will be..
I haven't yet.  I'll check it out.
I have not yet listened personally to her messages.  I did do a google search.  I saw lots of questionable stuff about her and I thought her website is rather sketchy - seems she is interested more in money and advertising her wares than providing a statement of faith or what she and her church believe.  This was one of the more interesting ones (note that I'm not condemning or endorsing her as I have no first hand facts or facts from sources I would consider credible) and everyone can be "converted" from a sinful past.  I also found a lot of material about her husband who died in 2005 - he appeared to be a typical televangelist to me - e.g. Joel Olsteen, Joyce Meyers, T J Jakes, Benny Hinn, etc. - that is long on style and short on substance and accuracy when you compare their teachings to what Scripture actually says:

http://www.marieclaire.com/world-report ... orn-pastor

... Mountaineer
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:07 am

Interesting view of us.  Opening comments followed by the link to the article.  The discussion covered many of the topics we have been talking about on this forum.

... Mountaineer

LOUISVILLE, Ky. (BP) -- While "cultural Christianity is dead" in an increasingly secular America, evangelicals have the "theological resources" to keep the faith, R. Albert Mohler Jr. said during a "Faith and Freedom in the Public Square" discussion at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

Mohler, president of Southern Seminary, was joined by nationally syndicated radio show host and conservative pundit Dennis Prager and New York Times columnist Ross Douthat for a wide-ranging and often entertaining two-hour discussion Jan. 28 of secularism, faith, politics and shifting morality in America.

Douthat, a Roman Catholic whose 2013 book about religion in the United States, "Bad Religion," appeared on The New York Times bestseller list, opened the session with a "view from Washington." He offered a "distillation" of the socio-religious environment and the cultural conversation in the nation's capital.

http://www.bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?id=41942
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Tortoise » Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:10 pm

Interesting article, but I would disagree with the following passage:
"Everything in leftism [both religious and political liberalism] follows from the belief that people are basically good," Prager said. "And everything in conservatism follows from the belief that people are not basically good. Judaism and Christianity were united in teaching that people were not basically good. With the death of traditional Judaism and traditional Christianity, you have the unbelievably dangerous belief that people are basically good, and everything flows from there to big government to believing that your opinion is what makes things moral.

Source: http://www.bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?id=41942
The reason I disagree is because, if liberals consider people to be basically good, then why do most liberals think government is necessary to keep them in check? Shouldn't "basically good" people be able to keep themselves in check?

See, that's one of the weird things about the liberal, atheist/agnostic viewpoint: If people are basically bad so that they need an external entity--government--to control them, then how is moral relativism a tenable position? Doesn't the legitimacy of said government rest on some kind of claim to moral superiority? By what standard is the government's morality judged?
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by doodle » Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:09 pm

In this discussion I think it is important to realize that most westerners visualize the idea of God as similar to an omnipotent ruler. In the east this supreme master concept of God doesnt really exist in the same way. Ironically, I would argue that Jesus' concepts of God are actually very similar to that which is expressed in Indian Vedanta. When Jesus was talking about the idea of being one with the father, he wasn't speaking about himself exclusively as the son of God as the catholic church interpreted it, but rather that this unity consciousness which he experienced was available to all. Of course, it is hard to subjugate and control people who are told that they are really all gods and so the church decided this son of god stuff had to stop with Jesus.

Anyways, for an interesting perspective on these topics I always turn to the late great Alan Watts...
"There was never a time when the world began, because it goes round and round like a circle, and there is no place on a circle where it begins. Look at my watch, which tells the time; it goes round, and so the world repeats itself again and again. But just as the hour-hand of the watch goes up to twelve and down to six, so, too, there is day and night, waking and sleeping, living and dying, summer and winter. You can't have any one of these without the other, because you wouldn't be able to know what black is unless you had seen it side-by-side with white, or white unless side-by-side with black.

"In the same way, there are times when the world is, and times when it isn't, for if the world went on and on without rest for ever and ever, it would get horribly tired of itself. It comes and it goes. Now you see it; now you don't. So because it doesn't get tired of itself, it always comes back again after it disappears. It's like your breath: it goes in and out, in and out, and if you try to hold it in all the time you feel terrible. It's also like the game of hide-and-seek, because it's always fun to find new ways of hiding, and to seek for someone who doesn't always hide in the same place. "God also likes to play hide-and-seek, but because there is nothing outside God, he has no one but himself to play with. But he gets over this difficulty by pretending that he is not himself. This is his way of hiding from himself. He pretends that he is you and I and all the people in the world, all the animals, all the plants, all the rocks, and all the stars. In this way he has strange and wonderful adventures, some of which are terrible and frightening. But these are just like bad dreams, for when he wakes up they will disappear.

"Now when God plays hide and pretends that he is you and I, he does it so well that it takes him a long time to remember where and how he hid himself. But that's the whole fun of it—just what he wanted to do.

He doesn't want to find himself too quickly, for that would spoil the game. That is why it is so difficult for you and me to find out that we are God in disguise, pretending not to be himself. But when the game has gone on long enough, all of us will wake up, stop pretending, and remember that we are all one single Self—the God who is all that there is and who lives for ever and ever.

"Of course, you must remember that God isn't shaped like a person. People have skins and there is always something outside our skins. If there weren't, we wouldn't know the difference between what is inside and outside our bodies. But God has no skin and no shape because there isn't any outside to him.

The inside and the outside of God are the same. And though I have been talking about God as 'he' and not 'she,' God isn't a man or a woman. I didn't say 'it' because we usually say 'it' for things that aren't alive. "God is the Self of the world, but you can't see God for the same reason that, without a mirror, you can't see your own eyes, and you certainly can't bite your own teeth or look inside your head. Your self is that cleverly hidden because it is God hiding.

"You may ask why God sometimes hides in the form of horrible people, or pretends to be people who suffer great disease and pain. Remember, first, that he isn't really doing this to anyone but himself. Remember, too, that in almost all the stories you enjoy there have to be bad people as well as good people, for the thrill of the tale is to find out how the good people will get the better of the bad. It's the same as when we play cards. At the beginning of the game we shuffle them all into a mess, which is like the bad things in the world, but the point of the game is to put the mess into good order, and the one who does it best is the winner. Then we shuffle the cards once more and play again, and so it goes with the world."
All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone. - Blaise Pascal
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Gosso » Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:50 pm

Doodle,

First off let me say that I love Alan Watts, he was the guy that got me out of my "zombie-state".  I'm pretty sure I've listened to most of his YouTube talks (probably a few times).  But I now find that when I read or listen to his work it just seems so hollow/empty...although maybe that's the point?  :-\

I will therefore counter Alan Watts with a little CS Lewis:

[quote=CS Lewis]You can’t go on “seeing through”? things forever. The whole point of seeing through something is to see something through it. It is good that the window should be transparent, because the street or garden beyond it is opaque. How if you saw through the garden too? It is no use trying to “see through”? first principles. If you see through everything, then everything is transparent. But a wholly transparent world is an invisible world. To “see through”? all things is the same as not to see. - CS Lewis from The Abolition of Man[/quote]

Really what it boils down to is this: is God personal or impersonal?  Does the Universe/God care about our life or consciousness?  Why do we have a little voice inside our heads telling us to "be good", and then we feel guilty when we disobey it (at least some people still do)?  Is the only purpose of life to try and escape from the material world?  Maybe these are questions we shouldn't ask, but I can't stop myself from asking them.  After plenty of reflection I have found the impersonal God (or "I am God") unsatisfactory, and have found a personal God far more fulfilling.  From there I began to appreciate the art, literature, architecture, mythology, philosophy, etc already built into Christianity.  I agree that mainstream Christianity can be frustrating, but we don't have to limit ourselves to that side of it.

Even if Christianity is false, then all we have done is paid a compliment to a stupid Universe that didn't deserve it.  I have a difficult time believing that the Universe is stupid, and that somehow humans should have come to know this.  Are we really more intelligent than the Universe?

Doodle, have you read any of Carl Jung's work?  Alan Watts was highly influenced by his work, and I think you might enjoy it.  I'd start with Man and His Symbols.

Edit: Fixed typo.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by doodle » Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:39 am

Gosso,

Good questions. No time for lengthy response right now gotta do the run around today,  but I think there is a difference between "seeing through" and "looking deeply". In Buddhism they talk about "emptiness" but this is not a nihilistic philosophy. As I understand it, it relates to the concept of dependent origination. That as you dig into something you will never be able to find its "essence" because its existence is in fact not an "entity" or a physical material manifestation but rather an interdependent event. Kind of like Buckminster Fuller's assertion that "you" are a verb and not a noun. You are a process not a thing and this process is sustained and influenced by all that goes on around it. In other words the feeling of separateness and isolation that the skin encapsulated ego creates for us is actually a myth or an illusion. 

Back to the subject of looking deeply, thich nhat hanh uses the example of a book and explores the idea of finding its true essence. He makes the point that if you look deeply you will find that it is really a confluence of events such as the tree and then further the sunshine and rain and soil which nurtured the tree. Then the ideas that are written in that book and the words depend on a long chain of human events which are further connected to other things. These infinite events are so inextricably linked that you cannot separate them and once one begins to truly feel this and see the interconnectedness or "oneness" of everything they apparently have the realization that they are "god".  Of course, by this time their individual ego has withered away so issues of megalomania and what not don't exist. And while they realize that they are "god" they also realize that you are God too....

Anyways, all this is just another perspective that one can enjoy when looking at this mysterious happening here. As Alan Watts used to say, Im not trying to sell you on anything. I am not asking you to believe in this but simply giving you the opportunity to enjoy another perspective that I find pleasurable. And you can take it,  or leave it at that. 
Last edited by doodle on Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Gosso » Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:08 am

Doodle,

In some ways Buddhism and Christianity aren't all that far apart.  For me the difference is that Buddhism becomes too abstract and I begin to lose interest in it (or maybe I'm just too dumb :) ), while Christianity is still plenty weird but also stays grounded.

Here is another passage you might enjoy from a letter that Lewis wrote (this letter is from the book A Severe Mercy, which I have not read):

[quote=CS Lewis]I don't agree with your picture of the history of religion. Christ, Buddha, Mohammed and others elaborating on an original simplicity. I believe Buddhism to be a simplification of Hinduism and Islam to be a simplification of Xianity. Clear, lucid, transparent, simple religion (Tao plus a shadowy, ethical god in the background) is a late development, usually arising among highly educated people in great cities. What you really start with is ritual, myth, and mystery, the death & return of Balder or Osiris, the dances, the initiations, the sacrifices, the divine kings. Over against that are the Philosophers, Aristotle or Confucius, hardly religion at all. The only two systems in which the mysteries and the philosophies come together are Hinduism and Xianity: there you get both the Metaphysics and Cult (continuous with primeval cults). That is why my first step was to be sure that one or the other of these had the answer. For the reality can't be one that appeals either only to savages or only to high brows. Real things aren't like that (e.g. matter is the first most obvious thing you meet like, chocolates, apples, and also the object of quantum physics). There is no question of just a crowd of disconnected religions. The choice is between (a.) The materialist world picture: wh. I can't believe. (b.) The real archaic primitive religions; wh. are not moral enough. (c.) The (claimed) fulfillment of these in Hinduism. (d.) The claimed fulfillment of these in Xianity. But the weakness of Hinduism is that it doesn't really merge the two strands. Unredeemable savage religion goes on in the village; the Hermit philosophizes in the forest: and neither really interfaces with the other. It is only Xianity which compels a high brow like me to partake of a ritual blood feast, and also compels a central African convert to attempt an enlightened code of ethics.

Have you ever tried Chesterton's The Everlasting Man? The best popular apologetic I know.

Meanwhile, the attempt to practice Tao is certainly the right line. Have you read the Analects of Confucius? He ends up by saying, `This is the Tao. I do not know if anyone has ever kept it.' That's significant: one can really go direct from there to the Epistle of the Romans.

I don't know if any of this is the least use. Be sure to write again, or call, if you think I can be of any help.

Source:  https://www.discovery.org/cslewis/artic ... etters.php
[/quote]

For more letters click the source link, I highly recommend them.
Last edited by Gosso on Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:14 pm

Tortoise wrote: Interesting article, but I would disagree with the following passage:
"Everything in leftism [both religious and political liberalism] follows from the belief that people are basically good," Prager said. "And everything in conservatism follows from the belief that people are not basically good. Judaism and Christianity were united in teaching that people were not basically good. With the death of traditional Judaism and traditional Christianity, you have the unbelievably dangerous belief that people are basically good, and everything flows from there to big government to believing that your opinion is what makes things moral.

Source: http://www.bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?id=41942
The reason I disagree is because, if liberals consider people to be basically good, then why do most liberals think government is necessary to keep them in check? Shouldn't "basically good" people be able to keep themselves in check?

See, that's one of the weird things about the liberal, atheist/agnostic viewpoint: If people are basically bad so that they need an external entity--government--to control them, then how is moral relativism a tenable position? Doesn't the legitimacy of said government rest on some kind of claim to moral superiority? By what standard is the government's morality judged?
Good questions.  Could you please clarify; it seems to me you are making the assumption that liberals are rational and have the best interests of the people at heart (when it comes to government). 

My observation is liberals/atheists/agnostics have a superiority view of themselves regardless of what they publically profess, and thus want "smart liberals" to be in ever increasingly big government to take care of the rest of us "not so smart less capable" people.  Religious conservatives realize they are sinners in need of an external source of right and wrong (God) for the definition of morals and do not depend upon themselves (an internal source of morals).  In other words, conservatives prefer a small government because they realize the potential for corruption that exists with big government, especially if filled by liberals who establish their own morals. 

Maybe I really have misunderstood what you are saying, so, please do clarify.  Thanks.

... Mountaineer
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by doodle » Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:23 pm

Religious conservatives realize they are sinners in need of an external source of right and wrong (God) for the definition of morals and do not depend upon themselves (an internal source of morals).
Im still waiting for this external source of right and wrong to descend from the heavens. I think it is pretty common knowledge how the Bible came into existence....it certainly didn't descend in its present form from hand of God.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Rick S » Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:50 pm

This thread reminds me of the book “life of Pi”?.

The book opens as Pi talks with a reporter about an adventure he had long ago as a boy.  He starts the interview with the statement of “There is a God and I can prove it”?.

Late in the book Pi recounts the fantastical story of a being thrown out to sea in a lifeboat surrounded by a tiger, baboon, hyena, and a zebra.  These characters go through some unimaginable adventures together.  Some die, but the boy and the tiger make it back to civilization. 

When the authorities question Pi about the adventure he tells them the fantastical story.  Thinking that the he is lying, the authorities demand the truth.  To satisfy the authorities Pi changes the story so that the baboon is his mom, and the tiger is really the mean sailor, etc.  Now, this is a story the authorities can believe in.

The book closes as Pi says “see, I told you that I can prove there is a god”?.  Confused, the reporter asks “How does that prove anything?”?  Pi says “I have told you two stories.  One is a fantastical adventure and the other is something you can believe in.  Which story do you prefer?”?
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:04 pm

doodle wrote:
Religious conservatives realize they are sinners in need of an external source of right and wrong (God) for the definition of morals and do not depend upon themselves (an internal source of morals).
Im still waiting for this external source of right and wrong to descend from the heavens. I think it is pretty common knowledge how the Bible came into existence....it certainly didn't descend in its present form from hand of God.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
Two questions:

1. Why do you choose to believe Wikipedia written a couple of thousand years after the fact rather than the eye-witness accounts of "Jesus becoming man, living, being crucified, and rising again and hearing the promise He will come again in the manner in which he left"? 

2. Why do you not think God could have influenced what happened at the first council of Nicaea?

My point:  Faith is knowing things unseen are true.  You did not see the Council of Nicaea, I did not see the resurection - we both are displaying faith; me in God, you in man.  I choose to go with the eye-witness version as being true. 

... Mountaineer
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Kshartle » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:09 pm

doodle wrote:
Religious conservatives realize they are sinners in need of an external source of right and wrong (God) for the definition of morals and do not depend upon themselves (an internal source of morals).
Im still waiting for this external source of right and wrong to descend from the heavens. I think it is pretty common knowledge how the Bible came into existence....it certainly didn't descend in its present form from hand of God.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
Doodle, how do you know God didn't direct them? Just because something has no proof doesn't mean you shouldn't believe in it. :)

They realize they've been mentally abused into thinking their creator made them a horible creature worthy only of a lake of fire and gave them natural instincts they are supposed to go against (self-interest). They are also responsible for the actions of people who came before them. Listen, it has nothing to do with some men trying to control the minds of other men and give them position and wealth. It can't be that because God wouldn't allow that. Well.....he will in every other religion and in government and other organizations and in abusive homes and etc. etc. but not in this one.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Gosso » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:30 pm

doodle wrote:
Religious conservatives realize they are sinners in need of an external source of right and wrong (God) for the definition of morals and do not depend upon themselves (an internal source of morals).
Im still waiting for this external source of right and wrong to descend from the heavens. I think it is pretty common knowledge how the Bible came into existence....it certainly didn't descend in its present form from hand of God.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
Common knowledge, eh?

From the Wikipedia article:
Misconceptions

Biblical canon:

A number of erroneous views have been stated regarding the council's role in establishing the biblical canon. In fact, there is no record of any discussion of the biblical canon at the council at all.[69] The development of the biblical canon took centuries, and was nearly complete (with exceptions known as the Antilegomena, written texts whose authenticity or value is disputed) by the time the Muratorian fragment was written.[70]

In 331 Constantine commissioned fifty Bibles for the Church of Constantinople, but little else is known (in fact, it is not even certain whether his request was for fifty copies of the entire Old and New Testaments, only the New Testament, or merely the Gospels), and it is doubtful that this request provided motivation for canon lists as is sometimes speculated. In Jerome's Prologue to Judith[71][72] he claims that the Book of Judith was "found by the Nicene Council to have been counted among the number of the Sacred Scriptures".

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Coun ... ical_canon
The primary purpose of the Council was to affirm what the vast majority of the early Christians already believed about the divinity of Jesus:
The council settled, to some degree, the debate within the Early Christian communities regarding the divinity of Christ. This idea of the divinity of Christ, along with the idea of Christ as a messenger from God (The Father), had long existed in various parts of the Roman empire. The divinity of Christ had also been widely endorsed by the Christian community in the otherwise pagan city of Rome.[10] The council affirmed and defined what it believed to be the teachings of the Apostles regarding who Christ is: that Christ is the one true God in deity with the Father.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Coun ... a#Overview
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:29 pm

Desert wrote: Questioning Christianity - Session 1
http://new.livestream.com/accounts/3231 ... ts/2682018

This is the first in a 7-part series.  It's not short, but I believe it's worth viewing.  I'll post the next 6 links as they are available.  I'm realistic enough to know that this is likely a monologue, but I really feel this series will be worth our time. 

Here's some info on the speaker, Tim Keller:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Keller_(pastor)

I am not 100% aligned with Keller's views, but I found his writings very helpful when I was finishing my Pascal readings and looking for the voice of someone in the present era.
I just finished watching Session 2 on live broadcast.  Outstanding presentation and Q&A session.  I expect the discussion would give many "fence sitters" or non-believers much to think about. 

http://new.livestream.com/redeemer-nyc/ ... dium=email

... Mountaineer
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by doodle » Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:39 pm

Desert wrote:
doodle wrote: In this discussion I think it is important to realize that most westerners visualize the idea of God as similar to an omnipotent ruler. In the east this supreme master concept of God doesnt really exist in the same way. Ironically, I would argue that Jesus' concepts of God are actually very similar to that which is expressed in Indian Vedanta. When Jesus was talking about the idea of being one with the father, he wasn't speaking about himself exclusively as the son of God as the catholic church interpreted it, but rather that this unity consciousness which he experienced was available to all. Of course, it is hard to subjugate and control people who are told that they are really all gods and so the church decided this son of god stuff had to stop with Jesus.






I think sometimes people state things they wish Jesus had said, rather than things he actually said.  If you read what Jesus actually said, it's clear that he did not say that there was a "unity conciousness" available to anyone.  In fact he said "I am the way, the truth and the life, nobody comes to the Father but by me."  Gnostics in the second century tried to modify things so that they could view themselves as more God-like.  But of course that was nothing new.  The original sin, and all sin that followed, had its roots in our desire to think of ourselves as God.  We want to be in control, we want to follow our own rules, we don't want to be under any external authority. 
When you make the two one, and when you make the inner as the outer and the outer as the inner and the above as the below then you shall enter the Kingdom."

This kind of sounds like unity consciousness to me...and it sounds like he is saying it is available to all...

"
Last edited by doodle on Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by doodle » Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:47 pm

Also, the gospel of Thomas which includes mostly sayings of Jesus was omitted from the bible...

With sayings like this it is pretty evident why the catholic church wanted to keep this out of the cannon...


3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.


When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."
All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone. - Blaise Pascal
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