Figuring Out Religion

[Pointedstick]

How is being fatter, weaker, and able to get pregnant a better design for this world?

Let's not go in this direction.

[Lowe]

Just saying, I think the hundreds of millions of women, who lived as slaves to physically stronger men for thousands of years, might disagree with the premise.

[Gosso]

Mountaineer,

Do you find that men need God more than women?  It seems to me that women are better designed for this world, they have beauty, intelligence, good work ethic, can create life, and all this seems to give meaning to their lives.  While men have intelligence and desire to create, yet they seem to crave a deeper meaning to all of it.  Or else they turn to alcohol, TV, video games, workaholism, etc as an escape.  Obviously this isn't a rule, but generally speaking.

In my experience, I do not observe much difference between men and women when it comes to needing God.  There for a minute in your second sentence, I thought you had subconsciously and inadvertently included a "wo" and subsequently left it out of your third sentence. 

What prompted your question?  I assume your experience is different?

... Mountaineer

Just an observation.  It seems men struggle more than women in this secular world.

[Gosso]

Just saying, I think the hundreds of millions of women, who lived as slaves to physically stronger men for thousands of years, might disagree with the premise.

I'm not suggesting we return to the oppression of women, and I think this was completely wrong.  In fact I was clearly saying women were the better sex.  Men need more help to break out of their immaturity which our society no longer provides.

Here's a YouTube video from Joseph Campbell on this topic (5:40): http://youtu.be/aGx4IlppSgU

[Lowe]

Better at what?

[Libertarian666]

Just saying, I think the hundreds of millions of women, who lived as slaves to physically stronger men for thousands of years, might disagree with the premise.

I'm not suggesting we return to the oppression of women, and I think this was completely wrong.  In fact I was clearly saying women were the better sex.  Men need more help to break out of their immaturity which our society no longer provides.

Here's a YouTube video from Joseph Campbell on this topic (5:40): http://youtu.be/aGx4IlppSgU

I don't think it is correct to say women are the better sex. They have their strengths and weaknesses just as men do.

[Mountaineer]

Better at what?

Do you have something of substance to offer or do you just enjoy taunting and being argumentative for the sake of it?

... Mountaineer

[Lowe]

No, I have a question.

[Gosso]

Better at what?

Primarily becoming a mature person (at least in my generation <30).  Forget I even brought up the topic.  Obviously it is politically incorrect to suggest there are differences between men and women.

[Lowe]

Yeah, but there are big differences.  Like muscle mass, and longevity.

[Mountaineer]

Better at what?

Primarily becoming a mature person (at least in my generation <30).  Forget I even brought up the topic.  Obviously it is politically incorrect to suggest there are differences between men and women.

Gosso,

Your original question was about differences in women vs. men needing God.  Somehow, this got diverted into slavery, muscle mass, etc. likely due to some hidden agendas.  (I'm a bit sensitive because I just read some of the logic references that l82start provided - and my experience with liberals is they often divert as there is not a lot of original thinking available to their grey matter - wow, was that ever politically incorrect  ).  My answer was in reference to your original question.  And as far as being politically incorrect, go for it.  Our culture has been smothered far too long by the do-gooders who push that agenda (do-good in name only, not in behavior).  Being PC is not really necessary as long as one is polite and sticks to the truth.  Just remember that Christ was not PC (e.g. moneychangers in the temple) but He did always tell the truth.  Of course, this is all just my opinion, based on quite a number of years of experience - I probably have about 40 more than you. 

... Mountaineer

... Mountaineer

[Gosso]

Better at what?

Primarily becoming a mature person (at least in my generation <30).  Forget I even brought up the topic.  Obviously it is politically incorrect to suggest there are differences between men and women.

Gosso,

Your original question was about differences in women vs. men needing God.  Somehow, this got diverted into slavery, muscle mass, etc. likely due to some hidden agendas.  (I'm a bit sensitive because I just read some of the logic references that l82start provided - and my experience with liberals is they often divert as there is not a lot of original thinking available to their grey matter - wow, was that ever politically incorrect  ).  My answer was in reference to your original question.  And as far as being politically incorrect, go for it.  Our culture has been smothered far too long by the do-gooders who push that agenda (do-good in name only, not in behavior).  Being PC is not really necessary as long as one is polite and sticks to the truth.  Just remember that Christ was not PC (e.g. moneychangers in the temple) but He did always tell the truth.  Of course, this is all just my opinion, based on quite a number of years of experience - I probably have about 40 more than you. 

... Mountaineer

No worries.  You gave a satisfactory answer to my original question.  I haven't spent much time around Christians, so I wanted the opinion of someone who has been in the trenches.

Yeah, but there are big differences.  Like muscle mass, and longevity.

I concur.

[Mountaineer]

For those of you who are interested in "why God permits suffering", the linked essay on Job by Todd Wilken may be of interest.

For those of you who are interested in "why Missouri Synod Lutheranism", the linked article by Ross Johnson may be of interest.

http://issuesetc.org/wp-content/uploads ... ER2013.pdf

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

Desert,

Thanks for the link, sounds interesting and I'll have to check it out.  I read Tim Keller's bio, a fascinating man.

I may have mentioned this before but this site  http://www.whitehorseinn.org/&nbsp; has interesting archived podcasts each about half an hour long (or listen on your computer).  The podcasts are by four pastors of different denominations and discuss a variety of subjects.  If you go to the link, be sure to check out the menu bar for "first time visitors" and  "the white horse inn" section that has information about the show hosts. 

... Mountaineer

[Gosso]

Questioning Christianity - Session 1
http://new.livestream.com/accounts/3231 ... ts/2682018

Thanks for the link!  Here are the notes I took from the above presentation given by Tim Keller (with a couple quotes that I added):

Is there meaning to life?
-  With God there is a deep/rich meaning. (expands thinking and imagination)
-  Without God there is a shallow/arbitrary meaning. (limits thinking and imagination)

New experiment in society to create your own meaning:
-  Need to stop being so serious and stop worrying about the meaning of life.
-  Just have fun and stop thinking.  (“Let us eat and drink! For tomorrow we die!”? – St. Paul's comments on if Christianity is false). 
-  Become more animalistic, live the life of illusion.
-  Stay drunk on life, you won’t like being sober.  (Jesus: “I found them all drunk, and I did not find any of them thirsty. My soul ached for the children of humanity, because they are blind in their hearts and do not see, for they came into the world empty, and they also seek to depart from the world empty. But meanwhile they are drunk. When they shake off their wine, then they will change their ways.”? – Gospel of Thomas)

Created vs discovered meaning:
Self-created:
-  Less rational, more arbitrary
-  Less durable, will be destroyed by suffering or loss of object of desire (beauty, money, social status, health, career, family, etc).  Victor Frankl – Man’s Search for Meaning.

Other systems:
-  Stoicism: harden yourself, accept whatever happens (only the elite can sustain this).
-  Hedonism: Be selfish and do whatever makes you happy at the moment.
-  Relativism: There is no meaning, create your own.
-  Moralism: Follow a code of ethics.

Discovered
-  Christianity: personal relationship with Christ (personality of God)
-  Other religions: Can provide meaning beyond the material world, which also provides durability.
-  Tim Keller will discuss the differences in future lectures

[Mountaineer]

Thanks for the link!  Here are the notes I took from the above presentation given by Tim Keller (with a couple quotes that I added):

Thanks for the notes Gosso - nice summary.  I also liked his comment about how people don't come to a belief system merely based on evidence.  First they have to have some attraction to the belief before they'll be convinced by the evidence.  I think that's quite true.

I'm looking forward to part II.

Just finished watching Session 1.  Excellent.  Keller is a very calm, thoughtful, respectful, and believable speaker and obviously well acquainted with the subject matter.  I thought he did a really good job with the audience questions which were not softballs.  I thought his comments about why many in our culture are able to find meaning within  themselves instead of outside themselves (e.g. in a god) was interesting.  Basically he says it is because our culture is very prosperous; much of the rest of the world is well in tune with suffering, we are not.  When things go "bad" those who only find meaning within themselves will likely have a very hard time of it as there will be no external "bigger than me" to rely upon.   

On a side note, it was refreshing to watch and listen to the moderator who seemed interested in representing the speaker and the audience objectively - so unlike the talking heads that dominate cable and network news and politics with their own egocentric agendas.

I'm also looking forward to Part 2.  Thanks again Gosso for sharing.

... Mountaineer

[Gosso]

While on the topic of "the meaning of life", I thought I'd link to David Foster Wallace's commencement address given in 2005, called "This is Water" (23 minutes):

Link to audio: http://youtu.be/PhhC_N6Bm_s

Link to text: http://moreintelligentlife.com/story/da ... -own-words

I believe Wallace was an atheist/agnostic, but had an amazing ability to cut through the bullshit and truly see what life in the modern era is about...it ain't pretty.  My generation is one raised primarily by TV and advertising, at some point we need to decide whether to submit to that culture or find our own path.

[quote=David Foster Wallace]Because here's something else that's weird but true: in the day-to-day trenches of adult life, there is actually no such thing as atheism. There is no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship. And the compelling reason for maybe choosing some sort of god or spiritual-type thing to worship--be it JC or Allah, be it YHWH or the Wiccan Mother Goddess, or the Four Noble Truths, or some inviolable set of ethical principles--is that pretty much anything else you worship will eat you alive. If you worship money and things, if they are where you tap real meaning in life, then you will never have enough, never feel you have enough. It's the truth. Worship your body and beauty and sexual allure and you will always feel ugly. And when time and age start showing, you will die a million deaths before they finally grieve you. On one level, we all know this stuff already. It's been codified as myths, proverbs, clichés, epigrams, parables; the skeleton of every great story. The whole trick is keeping the truth up front in daily consciousness.

Worship power, you will end up feeling weak and afraid, and you will need ever more power over others to numb you to your own fear. Worship your intellect, being seen as smart, you will end up feeling stupid, a fraud, always on the verge of being found out. But the insidious thing about these forms of worship is not that they're evil or sinful, it's that they're unconscious. They are default settings.

They're the kind of worship you just gradually slip into, day after day, getting more and more selective about what you see and how you measure value without ever being fully aware that that's what you're doing.[/quote]

I could literally watch David Foster Wallace interviews all day - here is another great one, "The Soul is not a Smithy" (28 minutes).

Tim Keller has mentioned David Foster Wallace a few times in his other lectures that I've seen.

[Pointedstick]

Just finished watching Session 1.  Excellent.  Keller is a very calm, thoughtful, respectful, and believable speaker and obviously well acquainted with the subject matter.  I thought he did a really good job with the audience questions which were not softballs.  I thought his comments about why many in our culture are able to find meaning within  themselves instead of outside themselves (e.g. in a god) was interesting.  Basically he says it is because our culture is very prosperous; much of the rest of the world is well in tune with suffering, we are not.  When things go "bad" those who only find meaning within themselves will likely have a very hard time of it as there will be no external "bigger than me" to rely upon.

This makes sense to me.

[Gosso]

has anyone ever watched "pastor Melisa Scott"? i used to watch her show on TV and found it fascinating, she does biblical lessons using interpretation of passages from original language through to modern translations, http://www.pastormelissascott.com/ it is interesting to see how different reading of original language has effected different understanding and different translations of scripture.. not to many "religion" TV shows capture my attention hers is definitely different...

i haven't watched recently or watched from the website, you might have to check out the archive to find the shows that go into this, although almost all the ones i saw a few years ago did,  regardless of what passages/principals were being discussed ..

I watched the "Ministry of the Thorn" video.  I agree that the faults we have can actually be used to help us live a better life; they can humble us and perhaps even lead us towards God.  Carl Jung said the same thing, that depression, anxiety, etc can actually be a sign of a healthy soul that is trying to transform or break free of the limited thinking of the person.

As for how to translate and interpret the Bible, well, this is a tricky and touchy subject (it's the reason there are over 30,000 Christian denominations).  I personally don't take everything in the Bible literally, but rather see it as a tool to link my consciousness with Gods...if that makes any sense.  I don't see the entire Bible as an encyclopedia of scientific/historic facts, but rather as true literature.  For example the Books of Job and Jonah can be read as tales which convey truth, even though they are not telling us of historical events.  And for Genesis we can also assume that it is symbolically attempting to convey something that cannot easily be explained.  Blaise Pascal claimed that the entire Old Testament has a double meaning; the first being only of the material world, and the other of the spiritual world which is what Jesus taught his disciples.

It's all very weird.  The more I study Christianity the more I realize how little I know.  Which can be a bit terrifying, but also very freeing.

Here are a couple videos from the Catholic tradition on how to read and interact with the Bible, they are presented by Fr. Barron:
- Deep Misunderstandings about the Bible (7:36)
- Protestantism and Authority (8:00)

its been awhile since i watched the show often but if i recall correctly, i suspect " tool to link my consciousness with Gods..." would be in keeping with her interpretations, i was pretty blown away with the knowledge of old languages and her ability to show the drift in meaning from one language to the next (IE Hebrew to Latin to English) and wrap it all up in a sermon that was not preachy or holy-roller or smarmy like most televised Christianity. what i get from biblical or other religions writings is probably "good enough" but i admire (and maybe envy a bit) the extra depth real scholarship and in this case language skills can seem to pull from a few "simple" passages.

[Gosso]

As for how to translate and interpret the Bible, well, this is a tricky and touchy subject (it's the reason there are over 30,000 Christian denominations).  I personally don't take everything in the Bible literally, but rather see it as a tool to link my consciousness with Gods...if that makes any sense.  I don't see the entire Bible as an encyclopedia of scientific/historic facts, but rather as true literature.  For example the Books of Job and Jonah can be read as tales which convey truth, even though they are not telling us of historical events.  And for Genesis we can also assume that it is symbolically attempting to convey something that cannot easily be explained.  Blaise Pascal claimed that the entire Old Testament has a double meaning; the first being only of the material world, and the other of the spiritual world which is what Jesus taught his disciples.

It's all very weird.  The more I study Christianity the more I realize how little I know.  Which can be a bit terrifying, but also very freeing.

Here are a couple videos from the Catholic tradition on how to read and interact with the Bible, they are presented by Fr. Barron:
- Deep Misunderstandings about the Bible (7:36)
- Protestantism and Authority (8:00)

its been awhile since i watched the show often but if i recall correctly, i suspect " tool to link my consciousness with Gods..." would be in keeping with her interpretations, i was pretty blown away with the knowledge of old languages and her ability to show the drift in meaning from one language to the next (IE Hebrew to Latin to English) and wrap it all up in a sermon that was not preachy or holy-roller or smarmy like most televised Christianity.  what i get from biblical or other religions writings is probably "good enough" but i admire (and maybe envy a bit) the extra depth real scholarship and in this case language skills can seem to pull from a few "simple" passages.

I see this a lot, where someone will try to justify their opinion by saying this word should have been translated this or that way.  If it makes the passage more beautiful then I usually agree

Joseph Campbell always said he preferred the Latin translation of the Bible, which gave him the "pitch into the mystery". CS Lewis has made similar comments.

Tim Keller mentioned in his first lecture that the phrase "The Word was made flesh", has "word" which comes from the Greek for logos which means mind/will/intelligence of God.

Frig now i want to learn Latin.

[Mountaineer]

As for how to translate and interpret the Bible, well, this is a tricky and touchy subject (it's the reason there are over 30,000 Christian denominations).  I personally don't take everything in the Bible literally, but rather see it as a tool to link my consciousness with Gods...if that makes any sense.  I don't see the entire Bible as an encyclopedia of scientific/historic facts, but rather as true literature.  For example the Books of Job and Jonah can be read as tales which convey truth, even though they are not telling us of historical events.  And for Genesis we can also assume that it is symbolically attempting to convey something that cannot easily be explained.  Blaise Pascal claimed that the entire Old Testament has a double meaning; the first being only of the material world, and the other of the spiritual world which is what Jesus taught his disciples.

It's all very weird.  The more I study Christianity the more I realize how little I know.  Which can be a bit terrifying, but also very freeing.

Here are a couple videos from the Catholic tradition on how to read and interact with the Bible, they are presented by Fr. Barron:
- Deep Misunderstandings about the Bible (7:36)
- Protestantism and Authority (8:00)

its been awhile since i watched the show often but if i recall correctly, i suspect " tool to link my consciousness with Gods..." would be in keeping with her interpretations, i was pretty blown away with the knowledge of old languages and her ability to show the drift in meaning from one language to the next (IE Hebrew to Latin to English) and wrap it all up in a sermon that was not preachy or holy-roller or smarmy like most televised Christianity.  what i get from biblical or other religions writings is probably "good enough" but i admire (and maybe envy a bit) the extra depth real scholarship and in this case language skills can seem to pull from a few "simple" passages.

I see this a lot, where someone will try to justify their opinion by saying this word should have been translated this or that way.  If it makes the passage more beautiful then I usually agree

Joseph Campbell always said he preferred the Latin translation of the Bible, which gave him the "pitch into the mystery". CS Lewis has made similar comments.

Tim Keller mentioned in his first lecture that the phrase "The Word was made flesh", has "word" which comes from the Greek for logos which means mind/will/intelligence of God.

Frig now i want to learn Latin.

LC-MS Pastors have to learn to read and speak Greek and Hebrew in Seminary so they can be reasonably proficient in the original languages.  I was impressed at the last District convention I attended when the President of the LC-MS got up and read (translated on the spot) and discussed a chapter from his Greek Bible.  My experience is when the Pastor knows the original language, he can do so much better understanding the nuances of the text vs. me sitting in a quiet corner reading in English.  Oh well .......

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

has anyone checked out the  "pastor Melisa Scott" link i posted above? i am curious what some of our well studied Christians take on her work will be..

I haven't yet.  I'll check it out.

I have not yet listened personally to her messages.  I did do a google search.  I saw lots of questionable stuff about her and I thought her website is rather sketchy - seems she is interested more in money and advertising her wares than providing a statement of faith or what she and her church believe.  This was one of the more interesting ones (note that I'm not condemning or endorsing her as I have no first hand facts or facts from sources I would consider credible) and everyone can be "converted" from a sinful past.  I also found a lot of material about her husband who died in 2005 - he appeared to be a typical televangelist to me - e.g. Joel Olsteen, Joyce Meyers, T J Jakes, Benny Hinn, etc. - that is long on style and short on substance and accuracy when you compare their teachings to what Scripture actually says:

http://www.marieclaire.com/world-report ... orn-pastor

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

Interesting view of us.  Opening comments followed by the link to the article.  The discussion covered many of the topics we have been talking about on this forum.

... Mountaineer

LOUISVILLE, Ky. (BP) -- While "cultural Christianity is dead" in an increasingly secular America, evangelicals have the "theological resources" to keep the faith, R. Albert Mohler Jr. said during a "Faith and Freedom in the Public Square" discussion at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

Mohler, president of Southern Seminary, was joined by nationally syndicated radio show host and conservative pundit Dennis Prager and New York Times columnist Ross Douthat for a wide-ranging and often entertaining two-hour discussion Jan. 28 of secularism, faith, politics and shifting morality in America.

Douthat, a Roman Catholic whose 2013 book about religion in the United States, "Bad Religion," appeared on The New York Times bestseller list, opened the session with a "view from Washington." He offered a "distillation" of the socio-religious environment and the cultural conversation in the nation's capital.

http://www.bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?id=41942

[Tortoise]

Interesting article, but I would disagree with the following passage:

"Everything in leftism [both religious and political liberalism] follows from the belief that people are basically good," Prager said. "And everything in conservatism follows from the belief that people are not basically good. Judaism and Christianity were united in teaching that people were not basically good. With the death of traditional Judaism and traditional Christianity, you have the unbelievably dangerous belief that people are basically good, and everything flows from there to big government to believing that your opinion is what makes things moral.

Source: http://www.bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?id=41942

The reason I disagree is because, if liberals consider people to be basically good, then why do most liberals think government is necessary to keep them in check? Shouldn't "basically good" people be able to keep themselves in check?

See, that's one of the weird things about the liberal, atheist/agnostic viewpoint: If people are basically bad so that they need an external entity--government--to control them, then how is moral relativism a tenable position? Doesn't the legitimacy of said government rest on some kind of claim to moral superiority? By what standard is the government's morality judged?

[doodle]

In this discussion I think it is important to realize that most westerners visualize the idea of God as similar to an omnipotent ruler. In the east this supreme master concept of God doesnt really exist in the same way. Ironically, I would argue that Jesus' concepts of God are actually very similar to that which is expressed in Indian Vedanta. When Jesus was talking about the idea of being one with the father, he wasn't speaking about himself exclusively as the son of God as the catholic church interpreted it, but rather that this unity consciousness which he experienced was available to all. Of course, it is hard to subjugate and control people who are told that they are really all gods and so the church decided this son of god stuff had to stop with Jesus.

Anyways, for an interesting perspective on these topics I always turn to the late great Alan Watts...

"There was never a time when the world began, because it goes round and round like a circle, and there is no place on a circle where it begins. Look at my watch, which tells the time; it goes round, and so the world repeats itself again and again. But just as the hour-hand of the watch goes up to twelve and down to six, so, too, there is day and night, waking and sleeping, living and dying, summer and winter. You can't have any one of these without the other, because you wouldn't be able to know what black is unless you had seen it side-by-side with white, or white unless side-by-side with black.

"In the same way, there are times when the world is, and times when it isn't, for if the world went on and on without rest for ever and ever, it would get horribly tired of itself. It comes and it goes. Now you see it; now you don't. So because it doesn't get tired of itself, it always comes back again after it disappears. It's like your breath: it goes in and out, in and out, and if you try to hold it in all the time you feel terrible. It's also like the game of hide-and-seek, because it's always fun to find new ways of hiding, and to seek for someone who doesn't always hide in the same place. "God also likes to play hide-and-seek, but because there is nothing outside God, he has no one but himself to play with. But he gets over this difficulty by pretending that he is not himself. This is his way of hiding from himself. He pretends that he is you and I and all the people in the world, all the animals, all the plants, all the rocks, and all the stars. In this way he has strange and wonderful adventures, some of which are terrible and frightening. But these are just like bad dreams, for when he wakes up they will disappear.

"Now when God plays hide and pretends that he is you and I, he does it so well that it takes him a long time to remember where and how he hid himself. But that's the whole fun of it—just what he wanted to do.

He doesn't want to find himself too quickly, for that would spoil the game. That is why it is so difficult for you and me to find out that we are God in disguise, pretending not to be himself. But when the game has gone on long enough, all of us will wake up, stop pretending, and remember that we are all one single Self—the God who is all that there is and who lives for ever and ever.

"Of course, you must remember that God isn't shaped like a person. People have skins and there is always something outside our skins. If there weren't, we wouldn't know the difference between what is inside and outside our bodies. But God has no skin and no shape because there isn't any outside to him.

The inside and the outside of God are the same. And though I have been talking about God as 'he' and not 'she,' God isn't a man or a woman. I didn't say 'it' because we usually say 'it' for things that aren't alive. "God is the Self of the world, but you can't see God for the same reason that, without a mirror, you can't see your own eyes, and you certainly can't bite your own teeth or look inside your head. Your self is that cleverly hidden because it is God hiding.

"You may ask why God sometimes hides in the form of horrible people, or pretends to be people who suffer great disease and pain. Remember, first, that he isn't really doing this to anyone but himself. Remember, too, that in almost all the stories you enjoy there have to be bad people as well as good people, for the thrill of the tale is to find out how the good people will get the better of the bad. It's the same as when we play cards. At the beginning of the game we shuffle them all into a mess, which is like the bad things in the world, but the point of the game is to put the mess into good order, and the one who does it best is the winner. Then we shuffle the cards once more and play again, and so it goes with the world."