Figuring Out Religion

[Pointedstick]

Maybe I'm off base here, but the way I see it (remember my two kingdoms discussion - vertical that deals with God and horizontal that deals with life here on earth):  we have free will only in the earthly kingdom because God loves you enough to not make you a puppet.  Your statement above, in my opinion, is dealing with the horizontal.  So, if you choose not to believe what God is saying via his Word, I believe you, living here on earth, have made the choice for eternal punishment of yourself.  God does not choose that for you, he offers you eternal life (vertical kingdom), you made the choice and thus your punishment is a consequence of your rejecting the gift.  As with many bad things that happen to us (certainly not all by a long shot) "we do it to ourselves".  So, God indeed does love us, we just choose not to love God.

This makes sense from the perspective of God being the master and basically offering us two choices, and then cosmically saying, "Welp, it's not my fault if you chose eternal torture."

However, I hope you can see how this does not make for an especially appealing version of God that I am very inclined to believe in. Things that spring to mind include questions about how exactly we make the choice to go to heaven. Do all Christians avoid hell, or only Lutherans? Do Evangelicals go there? What about non-Christians? Are all the Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists all going to hell? Don't nearly all religious people make this same claim about their own religion and afterlife? Are they all just wrong?

[Kshartle]

If God gives us the free will to choose whether or not to believe in him.....but then says if we choose to not he will torture us for all eternity....this is sadistic. Why would a being do such a thing and how is this demonstrating love? This is the moral equivalent of telling your kid to not run out into the street but when they do you want or cause a car to come along and hit them. Where is the love?

Maybe I'm off base here, but the way I see it (remember my two kingdoms discussion - vertical that deals with God and horizontal that deals with life here on earth):  we have free will only in the earthly kingdom because God loves you enough to not make you a puppet.  Your statement above, in my opinion, is dealing with the horizontal.  So, if you choose not to believe what God is saying via his Word, I believe you, living here on earth, have made the choice for eternal punishment of yourself.  God does not choose that for you, he offers you eternal life (vertical kingdom), you made the choice and thus your punishment is a consequence of your rejecting the gift.  As with many bad things that happen to us (certainly not all by a long shot) "we do it to ourselves".  So, God indeed does love us, we just choose not to love God.

If I point a gun at someone and say give me your child or I will shoot you....was their refusal really the "choice" of getting shot? Do they really have free will at this moment? If they don't, can the kidnapper claim they gave them a choice?

He doesn't offer you enternal life. He offers you eternal life or eternal suffering. No rationale person would choose the latter, and yet wide is the gate..........

If he does exist.....and you really will burn forever if you don't believe.....then I have to conclude he's sadistic. If he really wanted everyone to believe then he would come down and show himself quite clearly. Since he doesn't do that he must at least want some to "choose" to burn. Being all-powerful he would know in advance who would choose it also so it just becomes one big exercise in human torture.

If the argument is made that he wants us to choose it without proof from him and just take it on faith....this is again just giving us free will (now in the God stuff which I think you said you disagree with) but damning us if we exercise it. It's telling your kid to not disobey and play in the road without ever explaining why or preventing them from going if they are too young to understand the explanation. If they do out and get hit.....well....hey they deserved it....they should have obeyed. They had free will to obey or die. This is not good parenting and you'd think he'd be the perfect parent right?

Not trying to be a jerk, but how can God want to see humans be tortured and still make the claim he loves us? It's the inconsitency that tells me something is not right here.

[MediumTex]

As a very basic matter, on what basis would someone conclude that he was immortal in the first place?

Even in the Old Testament, I don't recall any discussion of human immortality.  In fact, in Ecclesiastes Solomon talked about how when you die you die and that's it, as if this was something that everyone understood.

I would like to be immortal, but I don't think that I can become immortal by simply declaring that I am immortal.  I am not suggesting a higher standard of proof than I would apply to other things, but concluding that I am immortal based upon the writings of an anonymous author from 2,000 years ago (when human immortality was a common belief in many religions) seems like a stretch.

[Kshartle]

This makes sense from the perspective of God being the master and basically offering us two choices, and then cosmically saying, "Welp, it's not my fault if you chose eternal torture."

However, I hope you can see how this does not make for an especially appealing version of God that I am very inclined to believe in.

It makes me think it can't be true because it means we're supposed to love and worship someone who created a pit of fire to burn us in. How can an all-powerful being do something like that. If a human did it.....we would call them barbaric and even the most strident anti capital punishment person would call for their execution. I can't square this circle.

[Kshartle]

I would like to be immortal, but I don't think that I can become immortal by simply declaring that I am immortal.

You don't think so? Ah-ha I kid I kid.

[MediumTex]

This makes sense from the perspective of God being the master and basically offering us two choices, and then cosmically saying, "Welp, it's not my fault if you chose eternal torture."

However, I hope you can see how this does not make for an especially appealing version of God that I am very inclined to believe in.

It makes me think it can't be true because it means we're supposed to love and worship someone who created a pit of fire to burn us in. How can an all-powerful being do something like that. If a human did it.....we would call them barbaric and even the most strident anti capital punishment person would call for their execution. I can't square this circle.

Was there a Hell in the Old Testament?  I don't remember anything about anyone going to Hell.  As I recall, if you did something bad in the Old Testament you would either be attacked and destroyed by a Jewish army or have to deal with some supernatural curse like a nasty disease or swarm of locusts.  If you were Jewish and you did something bad you might have to wander in the woods for the rest of your life or maybe murder someone you loved to demonstrate your belief in the goodness of God.

The saddest story in the Old Testament, to me, is Job.  All Job ever wanted to do was love God, but for whatever reason God chose to do a "Trading Places"-style test of Job's faith that involved killing his children and taking everything from Job, including the fruit of his labor and his health.  After watching him suffer long enough, he gave most of Job's stuff back, though you can't give back dead children, so I guess that was just water under the bridge.

[MediumTex]

I would like to be immortal, but I don't think that I can become immortal by simply declaring that I am immortal.

You don't think so? Ah-ha I kid I kid.

Well, maybe I can.  I will give it a try.

[Mountaineer]

If you know that there is an all-powerful immortal being that created you and everything else in the universe and that this being has certain hopes and expectations for you, how could you possibly have a "long dry spell" when it came to your relationship with this being?  That is incomprehensible to me.

If I were certain that God existed and that the Bible was basically an accurate guide to understanding his nature and expectations of me, I would do nothing but study my Bible and hang out at church.  It would be impossible to think about anything else.

This is one matter that troubles me about many Christians.  They often don't really act like what they believe is true.  Contrast the casual nature of many Christians' religion to the way Muslims approach their faith, which seems to involve far more discipline and commitment and frequently even provides a rationalization for suicide and murder under the pretext of simply following God's will for their lives.

MT, good questions.

There are two types of sin that we all have: 
Original or imputed - a result of Adam and Eve and the trusting of themselves vs. trusting God and the subsequent curse.
Actual - all those things we do every day knowingly or unknowingly.  Every thing from the biggies like murder to the "little" ones like looking at a woman lustfully without ever acting on it, or not helping my neighbor when he needs it.
They are both equivalent in God's eyes.  Thank God we have Jesus who paid for all of our sins for all time (except the unpardonable sin .... bait for a future question).

We humans, due to imputed sin, rebel against God at every opportunity; we cannot help it.  So, as for my long dry spell ... I'm just so very thankful it ended and I hope I do not fall into unbelief and do it to myself .........

My long dry spell was precipitated by all the hypocricy I saw in the church.  I was not mature enough to understand it.  I finally realized we are all hypocrites and worse.  Some are just more honest and open about showing it.  It is not about me or the other hypocrites, it is all about God.  I am just so very thankful I finally heard  his Word.

How did Adam and Eve fall into sin?  They walked in the presence of God and still did it.  Man surely has a powerful, maybe genetic, longing to understand everything, think everything can be explained by reason, and place himself above all else ... including God.  We sing the same song, just a different verse, every day.

[Mountaineer]

Was there a Hell in the Old Testament?  I don't remember anything about anyone going to Hell.  As I recall, if you did something bad in the Old Testament you would either be attacked and destroyed by a Jewish army or have to deal with some supernatural curse like a nasty disease or swarm of locusts.  If you were Jewish and you did something bad you might have to wander in the woods for the rest of your life or maybe murder someone you loved to demonstrate your belief in the goodness of God.

The saddest story in the Old Testament, to me, is Job.  All Job ever wanted to do was love God, but for whatever reason God chose to do a "Trading Places"-style test of Job's faith that involved killing his children and taking everything from Job, including the fruit of his labor and his health.  After watching him suffer long enough, he gave most of Job's stuff back, though you can't give back dead children, so I guess that was just water under the bridge.

Think about the first testament (OT) this way.  God created everything and it was good.  Man chose to go with his own knowledge instead of trusting God (the fall).  Death entered the world.  The point of the rest of the OT is to show how man, over, and over, and over, and over, cannot achieve righteousness on his own and thus show the need for a savior.  Events spiral downward.  God gave his story (man did not listen - Noah, rebirth via water (flood)), God chose Abraham and then Israel as the people to bring him to the world.  God gave his law (10 Commandments).  Man still did not get it.  God gave kings, judges, prophets.  Man still did not get it.  The downward spiral continued.  God decided to come to earth himself and brought Jesus to save man from himself.  The NT is all about Jesus (as is the OT when you learn to read it through his lens).  Many men still do not get it. 

Story of Job - In spite of Job's "friends", Job finally realized God is in charge and so far above us men that he is incomprehensible.  Through the whole sad story of Job and his suffering, God did not abandon him.  Contrary to how everyone abandoned Jesus throughout his suffering, culminating with an agonizing death on the cross where He defeated death for all who accept the gift.  The good news is that Satan no longer has access to God in God's presence (like he did in Job) and we have a mediator with God (Jesus).  The devil now just roams around on earth spreading his lies, tempting us to doubt, and creating havoc.  Thank God he has been defeated (on the cross).  I have to try to think outside of time to even have a small glimpse of this ... God's time is not like our time.  God created time just as he created everything else and can do anything with time He chooses.

Think of Christ's gift this way.  I give you a gift at Christmas.  You can take it as offered.  You can reject it if you wish.  The gift still exists and is offered either way.

[Gosso]

Here is Fr Barron's take on Hell (9 minutes): http://youtu.be/dmsa0sg4Od4

So Hell is not something that God does to us but rather the pain and loneliness of not being with God.

Also I have always enjoyed this dramatized conversation between CS Lewis and JRR Tolkien about Christianity being the one true myth (9 minutes): http://youtu.be/NzBT39gx-TE

I find Christianity fascinating but I have greatly distanced myself from the literalistic Christianity preached in most North American Churches.

[MediumTex]

How did Adam and Eve fall into sin?  They walked in the presence of God and still did it.  Man surely has a powerful, maybe genetic, longing to understand everything, think everything can be explained by reason, and place himself above all else ... including God.  We sing the same song, just a different verse, every day.

Humans are more curious than cats.

Surely God knew that if he put some magic trees in front of us, we were going to check them out.

That would be like putting a "Raiders of the Lost Ark" sized ball of catnip in front of a cat and expecting the cat to leave it alone.  I would expect a cat to be surprised to learn that because he checked out the ball of catnip he screwed it up for all future cats for all of eternity.

Was there really a choice there, or were humans ultimately just acting according to their nature?  I don't mean their evil nature, I mean their curious nature.

[Pointedstick]

Think about the first testament (OT) this way.  God created everything and it was good.  Man chose to go with his own knowledge instead of trusting God (the fall).  Death entered the world.  The point of the rest of the OT is to show how man, over, and over, and over, and over, cannot achieve righteousness on his own and thus show the need for a savior.  Events spiral downward.  God gave his story (man did not listen - Noah, rebirth via water (flood)), God chose Abraham and then Israel as the people to bring him to the world.  God gave his law (10 Commandments).  Man still did not get it.  God gave kings, judges, prophets.  Man still did not get it.  The downward spiral continued.  God decided to come to earth himself and brought Jesus to save man from himself.  The NT is all about Jesus (as is the OT when you learn to read it through his lens).  Many men still do not get it.

If God is all-powerful, I don't understand why he had to bother with all this indirection. It seems like God had the contradictory aims of steering man in a certain direction He preferred while simultaneously preserving man's free will (since I assume God could simply cause us all to do what He wanted due to his omnipotence). Why bother sending his son down to offer to save man? Why not offer to save man himself, or even just save us without the offer? Why not create a new kind of man that doesn't need to be saved? What is the point of free will if He knows what he wants from us and has the power to make us all do it if He really wanted to? I'm finding myself agreeing with Kshartle that it seems like He sort of enjoys seeing certain men suffer.

[MediumTex]

Think about the first testament (OT) this way.  God created everything and it was good.  Man chose to go with his own knowledge instead of trusting God (the fall).  Death entered the world.  The point of the rest of the OT is to show how man, over, and over, and over, and over, cannot achieve righteousness on his own and thus show the need for a savior.  Events spiral downward.  God gave his story (man did not listen - Noah, rebirth via water (flood)), God chose Abraham and then Israel as the people to bring him to the world.  God gave his law (10 Commandments).  Man still did not get it.  God gave kings, judges, prophets.  Man still did not get it.  The downward spiral continued.  God decided to come to earth himself and brought Jesus to save man from himself.  The NT is all about Jesus (as is the OT when you learn to read it through his lens).  Many men still do not get it.

If God is all-powerful, I don't understand why he had to bother with all this indirection. It seems like God had the contradictory aims of steering man in a certain direction He preferred while simultaneously preserving man's free will (since I assume God could simply cause us all to do what He wanted due to his omnipotence). Why bother sending his son down to offer to save man? Why not offer to save man himself, or even just save us without the offer? Why not create a new kind of man that doesn't need to be saved? What is the point of free will if He knows what he wants from us and has the power to make us all do it if He really wanted to? I'm finding myself agreeing with Kshartle that it seems like He sort of enjoys seeing certain men suffer.

I also wonder about God's choice of leaders in the Old Testament.

If the best you can do is a homophobic rapist like Moses or a cad like David and his spoiled womanizing son Solomon, it sort of makes it look like you don't have good judgment in the people you select as leaders.

It's sort of tempting to think that some of the stories in the Old Testament were created to help smooth over grumbling about what was basically incompetent leadership, especially when it came to David.

Also, and this is a minor point, but what's up with some of the guys in the Old Testament living hundreds of years?  That just doesn't make any sense at all to me.

[Mountaineer]

Think about the first testament (OT) this way.  God created everything and it was good.  Man chose to go with his own knowledge instead of trusting God (the fall).  Death entered the world.  The point of the rest of the OT is to show how man, over, and over, and over, and over, cannot achieve righteousness on his own and thus show the need for a savior.  Events spiral downward.  God gave his story (man did not listen - Noah, rebirth via water (flood)), God chose Abraham and then Israel as the people to bring him to the world.  God gave his law (10 Commandments).  Man still did not get it.  God gave kings, judges, prophets.  Man still did not get it.  The downward spiral continued.  God decided to come to earth himself and brought Jesus to save man from himself.  The NT is all about Jesus (as is the OT when you learn to read it through his lens).  Many men still do not get it.

If God is all-powerful, I don't understand why he had to bother with all this indirection. It seems like God had the contradictory aims of steering man in a certain direction He preferred while simultaneously preserving man's free will (since I assume God could simply cause us all to do what He wanted due to his omnipotence). Why bother sending his son down to offer to save man? Why not offer to save man himself, or even just save us without the offer? Why not create a new kind of man that doesn't need to be saved? What is the point of free will if He knows what he wants from us and has the power to make us all do it if He really wanted to? I'm finding myself agreeing with Kshartle that it seems like He sort of enjoys seeing certain men suffer.

I feel I'm disappointing you with this answer, but "I don't know".  To the best of my knowledge, that is not addressed in Scripture and is the "hidden side of God".  If I speculate on something that is not addressed in Scripture, then I have tried to make myself on the same plane as God.  As God is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, He would likely not think that a very good path for me to take.  After all, if we understood everything, there would be no need for Grace through Faith would there?  See how "inborn" it is to doubt and question and try to reason out everything?  At least that is my natural inclination.

[MediumTex]

What will happen to all of the Jews, Hindus and Buddhists when they die?

Is it just straight to Hell or what?

With Jews in particular, I've always struggled with the idea that in the post-Jesus era basically all of "God's People" are going to suffer in in Hell in perpetuity for their failure to understand who Jesus was, and yet there is this new gigantic population of non-Jews who are going to Heaven to spend eternity with a deity that grew out of the Jewish culture and history.

It almost seems like the Jews should be given a make-up test or something like that because what we have now is a setup where Jews are going to continue going to Hell in droves as they both turn away from Jesus and turn away from Judaism itself.  I have probably met more agnostic Jews than I have met from any other identifiable group.

Think about how annoyed God must be with the Jewish people.  I'm picturing thousands of years of facepalms.

[Mountaineer]

I also wonder about God's choice of leaders in the Old Testament.

If the best you can do is a homophobic rapist like Moses or a cad like David and his spoiled womanizing son Solomon, it sort of makes it look like you don't have good judgment in the people you select as leaders.

It's sort of tempting to think that some of the stories in the Old Testament were created to help smooth over grumbling about what was basically incompetent leadership, especially when it came to David.

Also, and this is a minor point, but what's up with some of the guys in the Old Testament living hundreds of years?  That just doesn't make any sense at all to me.

See my downward spiral comments previously.  Yes, David was indeed one of those who kept sinning ... but then repented and God forgave him.  Just like us and what is available to us.

Old guys:  If indeed you accept or tolerate the created perfectly part, then a long downward spiral, would not people closer to the perfection side live longer than the ones closer to the really corrupted side?

[MediumTex]

Think about the first testament (OT) this way.  God created everything and it was good.  Man chose to go with his own knowledge instead of trusting God (the fall).  Death entered the world.  The point of the rest of the OT is to show how man, over, and over, and over, and over, cannot achieve righteousness on his own and thus show the need for a savior.  Events spiral downward.  God gave his story (man did not listen - Noah, rebirth via water (flood)), God chose Abraham and then Israel as the people to bring him to the world.  God gave his law (10 Commandments).  Man still did not get it.  God gave kings, judges, prophets.  Man still did not get it.  The downward spiral continued.  God decided to come to earth himself and brought Jesus to save man from himself.  The NT is all about Jesus (as is the OT when you learn to read it through his lens).  Many men still do not get it.

If God is all-powerful, I don't understand why he had to bother with all this indirection. It seems like God had the contradictory aims of steering man in a certain direction He preferred while simultaneously preserving man's free will (since I assume God could simply cause us all to do what He wanted due to his omnipotence). Why bother sending his son down to offer to save man? Why not offer to save man himself, or even just save us without the offer? Why not create a new kind of man that doesn't need to be saved? What is the point of free will if He knows what he wants from us and has the power to make us all do it if He really wanted to? I'm finding myself agreeing with Kshartle that it seems like He sort of enjoys seeing certain men suffer.

I feel I'm disappointing you with this answer, but "I don't know".  To the best of my knowledge, that is not addressed in Scripture and is the "hidden side of God".  If I speculate on something that is not addressed in Scripture, then I have tried to make myself on the same plane as God.  As God is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, He would likely not think that a very good path for me to take.  After all, if we understood everything, there would be no need for Grace through Faith would there?  See how "inborn" it is to doubt and question and try to reason out everything?  At least that is my natural inclination.

But my first thought is that the nonsensical structure of the whole thing is one more reason to think that it is basically just a cobbled together projection of human fantasies and desires that have repeatedly been made obsolete as times have changed, but people nevertheless cling to them.

I can picture meeting God one day and being asked if I had been distracted by all of that clumsy human folklore and mysticism in trying to understand his nature.  I can imagine him saying that to learn about him all I really needed to do was to take a walk in the woods, spend time with a baby and be honest with myself.

[Mountaineer]

What will happen to all of the Jews, Hindus and Buddhists when they die?

Is it just straight to Hell or what?

With Jews in particular, I've always struggled with the idea that in the post-Jesus era basically all of "God's People" are going to suffer in in Hell in perpetuity for their failure to understand who Jesus was, and yet there is this new gigantic population of non-Jews who are going to Heaven to spend eternity with a deity that grew out of the Jewish culture and history.

It almost seems like the Jews should be given a make-up test or something like that because what we have now is a setup where Jews are going to continue going to Hell in droves as they both turn away from Jesus and turn away from Judaism itself.  I have probably met more agnostic Jews than I have met from any other identifiable group.

Think about how annoyed God must be with the Jewish people.  I'm picturing thousands of years of facepalms.

God says the way is through Jesus.  So, if you do not believe in Jesus ... you have chosen Hell.  Once again, you do it to yourself.

My daughter-in-law struggles mightly with this because she sees Jewish people who are "good".  Unfortunately, their deeds while on this earth mean nothing to God as far as salvation goes.  At least, that is what the Word says and I believe it.

[MediumTex]

Old guys:  If indeed you accept or tolerate the created perfectly part, then a long downward spiral, would not people closer to the perfection side live longer than the ones closer to the really corrupted side?

I don't know.  If the goal is to get closer to God as soon as possible, I would think that a shorter life expectancy would be better.

I would be like asking if you wanted to sit in the waiting room for 30 minutes or three hours.

[Pointedstick]

"I don't know" is a great answer, actually, and and appreciate your being able to say it, mountaineer. That said, I hope you can appreciate how the lack of any answer to such a humongous glaring contradiction is not very satisfying either.

[Mountaineer]

Old guys:  If indeed you accept or tolerate the created perfectly part, then a long downward spiral, would not people closer to the perfection side live longer than the ones closer to the really corrupted side?

I don't know.  If the goal is to get closer to God as soon as possible, I would think that a shorter life expectancy would be better.

I would be like asking if you wanted to sit in the waiting room for 30 minutes or three hours.

Interesting point.  If you have three hours, you have longer to tell others about Jesus and thus possibly save them from Hell.  That is being the ultimate "good neighbor".   

[MediumTex]

What will happen to all of the Jews, Hindus and Buddhists when they die?

Is it just straight to Hell or what?

With Jews in particular, I've always struggled with the idea that in the post-Jesus era basically all of "God's People" are going to suffer in in Hell in perpetuity for their failure to understand who Jesus was, and yet there is this new gigantic population of non-Jews who are going to Heaven to spend eternity with a deity that grew out of the Jewish culture and history.

It almost seems like the Jews should be given a make-up test or something like that because what we have now is a setup where Jews are going to continue going to Hell in droves as they both turn away from Jesus and turn away from Judaism itself.  I have probably met more agnostic Jews than I have met from any other identifiable group.

Think about how annoyed God must be with the Jewish people.  I'm picturing thousands of years of facepalms.

God says the way is through Jesus.  So, if you do not believe in Jesus ... you have chosen Hell.  Once again, you do it to yourself.

My daughter-in-law struggles mightly with this because she sees Jewish people who are "good".  Unfortunately, their deeds while on this earth mean nothing to God as far as salvation goes.  At least, that is what the Word says and I believe it.

What about the people who never heard about Jesus?

What about the people in the decades following Jesus's death who couldn't have heard about him because nothing had been written about him yet and they lived outside the community in which the Jesus story would have been discussed?

What about the people who died later that same week that Jesus died but in another part of the world?  What were they supposed to do if they wanted to go to Heaven?  What would they have needed to do to get to Heaven before Jesus came along?  I guess they would have needed to be pious Jews, right?

For the pious Jews of the time who wanted to get to Heaven, I guess they would have needed to embrace Jesus's message, even though it would have potentially caused them to be kicked out of the Jewish faith for heresy.  (It would really have taken some balls to do that.)

[Pointedstick]

My daughter-in-law struggles mightly with this because she sees Jewish people who are "good".  Unfortunately, their deeds while on this earth mean nothing to God as far as salvation goes.  At least, that is what the Word says and I believe it.

I respect that you believe this, but doesn't it seem a bit cruel? I wonder what God's motivation is in saving a repentant serial killer but not a Hindu who distributes food to the hungry. It just seems so… arbitrary and capricious, and it doesn't square with the "loving God" often referred to. I have difficulty reconciling these things.

[Mountaineer]

"I don't know" is a great answer, actually, and and appreciate your being able to say it, mountaineer. That said, I hope you can appreciate how the lack of any answer to such a humongous glaring contradiction is not very satisfying either.

Thanks.  And, yep! 

Here is something to chew on:  Mercy is not complete unless it is coupled with truth and related to hope.  I try to be truthful and say "I don't know" when that is the truth.

[MediumTex]

Old guys:  If indeed you accept or tolerate the created perfectly part, then a long downward spiral, would not people closer to the perfection side live longer than the ones closer to the really corrupted side?

I don't know.  If the goal is to get closer to God as soon as possible, I would think that a shorter life expectancy would be better.

I would be like asking if you wanted to sit in the waiting room for 30 minutes or three hours.

Interesting point.  If you have three hours, you have longer to tell others about Jesus and thus possibly save them from Hell.  That is being the ultimate "good neighbor".   

I'm visualizing a couple of Mormon missionaries on bicycles saying something like: "Well, my real ambition is to simply ride around on this bike talking about Moroni and the celestial kingdom until the day I die, but I only get to do this for a couple of years and then I have to move on to other things."