Figuring Out Religion

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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by MediumTex » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:27 pm

Pointedstick wrote:
Mountaineer wrote: Think about the first testament (OT) this way.  God created everything and it was good.  Man chose to go with his own knowledge instead of trusting God (the fall).  Death entered the world.  The point of the rest of the OT is to show how man, over, and over, and over, and over, cannot achieve righteousness on his own and thus show the need for a savior.  Events spiral downward.  God gave his story (man did not listen - Noah, rebirth via water (flood)), God chose Abraham and then Israel as the people to bring him to the world.  God gave his law (10 Commandments).  Man still did not get it.  God gave kings, judges, prophets.  Man still did not get it.  The downward spiral continued.  God decided to come to earth himself and brought Jesus to save man from himself.  The NT is all about Jesus (as is the OT when you learn to read it through his lens).  Many men still do not get it.
If God is all-powerful, I don't understand why he had to bother with all this indirection. It seems like God had the contradictory aims of steering man in a certain direction He preferred while simultaneously preserving man's free will (since I assume God could simply cause us all to do what He wanted due to his omnipotence). Why bother sending his son down to offer to save man? Why not offer to save man himself, or even just save us without the offer? Why not create a new kind of man that doesn't need to be saved? What is the point of free will if He knows what he wants from us and has the power to make us all do it if He really wanted to? I'm finding myself agreeing with Kshartle that it seems like He sort of enjoys seeing certain men suffer.
I also wonder about God's choice of leaders in the Old Testament.

If the best you can do is a homophobic rapist like Moses or a cad like David and his spoiled womanizing son Solomon, it sort of makes it look like you don't have good judgment in the people you select as leaders.

It's sort of tempting to think that some of the stories in the Old Testament were created to help smooth over grumbling about what was basically incompetent leadership, especially when it came to David.

Also, and this is a minor point, but what's up with some of the guys in the Old Testament living hundreds of years?  That just doesn't make any sense at all to me.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:34 pm

Pointedstick wrote:
Mountaineer wrote: Think about the first testament (OT) this way.  God created everything and it was good.  Man chose to go with his own knowledge instead of trusting God (the fall).  Death entered the world.  The point of the rest of the OT is to show how man, over, and over, and over, and over, cannot achieve righteousness on his own and thus show the need for a savior.  Events spiral downward.  God gave his story (man did not listen - Noah, rebirth via water (flood)), God chose Abraham and then Israel as the people to bring him to the world.  God gave his law (10 Commandments).  Man still did not get it.  God gave kings, judges, prophets.  Man still did not get it.  The downward spiral continued.  God decided to come to earth himself and brought Jesus to save man from himself.  The NT is all about Jesus (as is the OT when you learn to read it through his lens).  Many men still do not get it.
If God is all-powerful, I don't understand why he had to bother with all this indirection. It seems like God had the contradictory aims of steering man in a certain direction He preferred while simultaneously preserving man's free will (since I assume God could simply cause us all to do what He wanted due to his omnipotence). Why bother sending his son down to offer to save man? Why not offer to save man himself, or even just save us without the offer? Why not create a new kind of man that doesn't need to be saved? What is the point of free will if He knows what he wants from us and has the power to make us all do it if He really wanted to? I'm finding myself agreeing with Kshartle that it seems like He sort of enjoys seeing certain men suffer.
I feel I'm disappointing you with this answer, but "I don't know".  To the best of my knowledge, that is not addressed in Scripture and is the "hidden side of God".  If I speculate on something that is not addressed in Scripture, then I have tried to make myself on the same plane as God.  As God is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, He would likely not think that a very good path for me to take.  After all, if we understood everything, there would be no need for Grace through Faith would there?  See how "inborn" it is to doubt and question and try to reason out everything?  At least that is my natural inclination.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by MediumTex » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:37 pm

What will happen to all of the Jews, Hindus and Buddhists when they die?

Is it just straight to Hell or what?

With Jews in particular, I've always struggled with the idea that in the post-Jesus era basically all of "God's People" are going to suffer in in Hell in perpetuity for their failure to understand who Jesus was, and yet there is this new gigantic population of non-Jews who are going to Heaven to spend eternity with a deity that grew out of the Jewish culture and history.

It almost seems like the Jews should be given a make-up test or something like that because what we have now is a setup where Jews are going to continue going to Hell in droves as they both turn away from Jesus and turn away from Judaism itself.  I have probably met more agnostic Jews than I have met from any other identifiable group.

Think about how annoyed God must be with the Jewish people.  I'm picturing thousands of years of facepalms.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:41 pm

MediumTex wrote:
I also wonder about God's choice of leaders in the Old Testament.

If the best you can do is a homophobic rapist like Moses or a cad like David and his spoiled womanizing son Solomon, it sort of makes it look like you don't have good judgment in the people you select as leaders.

It's sort of tempting to think that some of the stories in the Old Testament were created to help smooth over grumbling about what was basically incompetent leadership, especially when it came to David.

Also, and this is a minor point, but what's up with some of the guys in the Old Testament living hundreds of years?  That just doesn't make any sense at all to me.
See my downward spiral comments previously.  Yes, David was indeed one of those who kept sinning ... but then repented and God forgave him.  Just like us and what is available to us.

Old guys:  If indeed you accept or tolerate the created perfectly part, then a long downward spiral, would not people closer to the perfection side live longer than the ones closer to the really corrupted side?
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by MediumTex » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:43 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Pointedstick wrote:
Mountaineer wrote: Think about the first testament (OT) this way.  God created everything and it was good.  Man chose to go with his own knowledge instead of trusting God (the fall).  Death entered the world.  The point of the rest of the OT is to show how man, over, and over, and over, and over, cannot achieve righteousness on his own and thus show the need for a savior.  Events spiral downward.  God gave his story (man did not listen - Noah, rebirth via water (flood)), God chose Abraham and then Israel as the people to bring him to the world.  God gave his law (10 Commandments).  Man still did not get it.  God gave kings, judges, prophets.  Man still did not get it.  The downward spiral continued.  God decided to come to earth himself and brought Jesus to save man from himself.  The NT is all about Jesus (as is the OT when you learn to read it through his lens).  Many men still do not get it.
If God is all-powerful, I don't understand why he had to bother with all this indirection. It seems like God had the contradictory aims of steering man in a certain direction He preferred while simultaneously preserving man's free will (since I assume God could simply cause us all to do what He wanted due to his omnipotence). Why bother sending his son down to offer to save man? Why not offer to save man himself, or even just save us without the offer? Why not create a new kind of man that doesn't need to be saved? What is the point of free will if He knows what he wants from us and has the power to make us all do it if He really wanted to? I'm finding myself agreeing with Kshartle that it seems like He sort of enjoys seeing certain men suffer.
I feel I'm disappointing you with this answer, but "I don't know".  To the best of my knowledge, that is not addressed in Scripture and is the "hidden side of God".  If I speculate on something that is not addressed in Scripture, then I have tried to make myself on the same plane as God.  As God is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, He would likely not think that a very good path for me to take.  After all, if we understood everything, there would be no need for Grace through Faith would there?  See how "inborn" it is to doubt and question and try to reason out everything?  At least that is my natural inclination.
But my first thought is that the nonsensical structure of the whole thing is one more reason to think that it is basically just a cobbled together projection of human fantasies and desires that have repeatedly been made obsolete as times have changed, but people nevertheless cling to them.

I can picture meeting God one day and being asked if I had been distracted by all of that clumsy human folklore and mysticism in trying to understand his nature.  I can imagine him saying that to learn about him all I really needed to do was to take a walk in the woods, spend time with a baby and be honest with myself.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:43 pm

MediumTex wrote: What will happen to all of the Jews, Hindus and Buddhists when they die?

Is it just straight to Hell or what?

With Jews in particular, I've always struggled with the idea that in the post-Jesus era basically all of "God's People" are going to suffer in in Hell in perpetuity for their failure to understand who Jesus was, and yet there is this new gigantic population of non-Jews who are going to Heaven to spend eternity with a deity that grew out of the Jewish culture and history.

It almost seems like the Jews should be given a make-up test or something like that because what we have now is a setup where Jews are going to continue going to Hell in droves as they both turn away from Jesus and turn away from Judaism itself.  I have probably met more agnostic Jews than I have met from any other identifiable group.

Think about how annoyed God must be with the Jewish people.  I'm picturing thousands of years of facepalms.
God says the way is through Jesus.  So, if you do not believe in Jesus ... you have chosen Hell.  Once again, you do it to yourself.

My daughter-in-law struggles mightly with this because she sees Jewish people who are "good".  Unfortunately, their deeds while on this earth mean nothing to God as far as salvation goes.  At least, that is what the Word says and I believe it.
Last edited by Mountaineer on Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by MediumTex » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:45 pm

Mountaineer wrote: Old guys:  If indeed you accept or tolerate the created perfectly part, then a long downward spiral, would not people closer to the perfection side live longer than the ones closer to the really corrupted side?
I don't know.  If the goal is to get closer to God as soon as possible, I would think that a shorter life expectancy would be better.

I would be like asking if you wanted to sit in the waiting room for 30 minutes or three hours.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Pointedstick » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:45 pm

"I don't know" is a great answer, actually, and and appreciate your being able to say it, mountaineer. That said, I hope you can appreciate how the lack of any answer to such a humongous glaring contradiction is not very satisfying either.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:48 pm

MediumTex wrote:
Mountaineer wrote: Old guys:  If indeed you accept or tolerate the created perfectly part, then a long downward spiral, would not people closer to the perfection side live longer than the ones closer to the really corrupted side?
I don't know.  If the goal is to get closer to God as soon as possible, I would think that a shorter life expectancy would be better.

I would be like asking if you wanted to sit in the waiting room for 30 minutes or three hours.
Interesting point.  If you have three hours, you have longer to tell others about Jesus and thus possibly save them from Hell.  That is being the ultimate "good neighbor".    :)
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by MediumTex » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:50 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
MediumTex wrote: What will happen to all of the Jews, Hindus and Buddhists when they die?

Is it just straight to Hell or what?

With Jews in particular, I've always struggled with the idea that in the post-Jesus era basically all of "God's People" are going to suffer in in Hell in perpetuity for their failure to understand who Jesus was, and yet there is this new gigantic population of non-Jews who are going to Heaven to spend eternity with a deity that grew out of the Jewish culture and history.

It almost seems like the Jews should be given a make-up test or something like that because what we have now is a setup where Jews are going to continue going to Hell in droves as they both turn away from Jesus and turn away from Judaism itself.  I have probably met more agnostic Jews than I have met from any other identifiable group.

Think about how annoyed God must be with the Jewish people.  I'm picturing thousands of years of facepalms.
God says the way is through Jesus.  So, if you do not believe in Jesus ... you have chosen Hell.  Once again, you do it to yourself.

My daughter-in-law struggles mightly with this because she sees Jewish people who are "good".  Unfortunately, their deeds while on this earth mean nothing to God as far as salvation goes.  At least, that is what the Word says and I believe it.
What about the people who never heard about Jesus?

What about the people in the decades following Jesus's death who couldn't have heard about him because nothing had been written about him yet and they lived outside the community in which the Jesus story would have been discussed?

What about the people who died later that same week that Jesus died but in another part of the world?  What were they supposed to do if they wanted to go to Heaven?  What would they have needed to do to get to Heaven before Jesus came along?  I guess they would have needed to be pious Jews, right?

For the pious Jews of the time who wanted to get to Heaven, I guess they would have needed to embrace Jesus's message, even though it would have potentially caused them to be kicked out of the Jewish faith for heresy.  (It would really have taken some balls to do that.)
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Pointedstick » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:52 pm

Mountaineer wrote: My daughter-in-law struggles mightly with this because she sees Jewish people who are "good".  Unfortunately, their deeds while on this earth mean nothing to God as far as salvation goes.  At least, that is what the Word says and I believe it.
I respect that you believe this, but doesn't it seem a bit cruel? I wonder what God's motivation is in saving a repentant serial killer but not a Hindu who distributes food to the hungry. It just seems so… arbitrary and capricious, and it doesn't square with the "loving God" often referred to. I have difficulty reconciling these things.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:52 pm

Pointedstick wrote: "I don't know" is a great answer, actually, and and appreciate your being able to say it, mountaineer. That said, I hope you can appreciate how the lack of any answer to such a humongous glaring contradiction is not very satisfying either.
Thanks.  And, yep! 

Here is something to chew on:  Mercy is not complete unless it is coupled with truth and related to hope.  I try to be truthful and say "I don't know" when that is the truth.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by MediumTex » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:53 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
MediumTex wrote:
Mountaineer wrote: Old guys:  If indeed you accept or tolerate the created perfectly part, then a long downward spiral, would not people closer to the perfection side live longer than the ones closer to the really corrupted side?
I don't know.  If the goal is to get closer to God as soon as possible, I would think that a shorter life expectancy would be better.

I would be like asking if you wanted to sit in the waiting room for 30 minutes or three hours.
Interesting point.  If you have three hours, you have longer to tell others about Jesus and thus possibly save them from Hell.  That is being the ultimate "good neighbor".    :)
I'm visualizing a couple of Mormon missionaries on bicycles saying something like: "Well, my real ambition is to simply ride around on this bike talking about Moroni and the celestial kingdom until the day I die, but I only get to do this for a couple of years and then I have to move on to other things."
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:58 pm

MediumTex wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:
MediumTex wrote: What will happen to all of the Jews, Hindus and Buddhists when they die?

Is it just straight to Hell or what?

With Jews in particular, I've always struggled with the idea that in the post-Jesus era basically all of "God's People" are going to suffer in in Hell in perpetuity for their failure to understand who Jesus was, and yet there is this new gigantic population of non-Jews who are going to Heaven to spend eternity with a deity that grew out of the Jewish culture and history.

It almost seems like the Jews should be given a make-up test or something like that because what we have now is a setup where Jews are going to continue going to Hell in droves as they both turn away from Jesus and turn away from Judaism itself.  I have probably met more agnostic Jews than I have met from any other identifiable group.

Think about how annoyed God must be with the Jewish people.  I'm picturing thousands of years of facepalms.
God says the way is through Jesus.  So, if you do not believe in Jesus ... you have chosen Hell.  Once again, you do it to yourself.

My daughter-in-law struggles mightly with this because she sees Jewish people who are "good".  Unfortunately, their deeds while on this earth mean nothing to God as far as salvation goes.  At least, that is what the Word says and I believe it.
What about the people who never heard about Jesus?

What about the people in the decades following Jesus's death who couldn't have heard about him because nothing had been written about him yet and they lived outside the community in which the Jesus story would have been discussed?

What about the people who died later that same week that Jesus died but in another part of the world?  What were they supposed to do if they wanted to go to Heaven?  What would they have needed to do to get to Heaven before Jesus came along?  I guess they would have needed to be pious Jews, right?

For the pious Jews of the time who wanted to get to Heaven, I guess they would have needed to embrace Jesus's message, even though it would have potentially caused them to be kicked out of the Jewish faith for heresy.  (It would really have taken some balls to do that.)
All I can say is what God says in His Word: Jesus is the way, the truth and the life and so forth.  I don't have to understand it, it is up to God to decide what to do with all those we don't know about.  However, remember that Jesus is all over the OT if you read it correctly, beginning with the creation narrative (sorry, that sounds judgemental and condescending but it is truth and I'm trying to read all these posts and may be responding too quickly).
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by moda0306 » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:02 pm

Mountaineer,

What about children?  Do they all go to hell if they don't believe in Jesus?

What about all the scores of people who had NO WAY of knowing who Jesus was, and didn't come to your One Truth?  Did those children/people get any kind of pass?

It seems to me that God made it extremely easy for some people to "hear Him" (those with Christianity all around them) than others... Isn't that kind of unfair?  A man in Africa or Asia in the wrong century could have spent his entire life trying to open his soul up to God and NEVER would he have known of who Jesus is.

Would God really make it THAT difficult for even the most dedicated of his children to find out his One Truth, while other people just get to stumble into the church and say, "Hmm, this Jesus sounds like a great guy and my soul feels connected to him and I believe his story"??

This just seems very convenient for Christians and inconvenient for those who have grown up in areas that, at some points in history, literally had NO way of knowing who Jesus was.  Do you think Jesus really wanted that?  For his message, and therefore the salvation of any one individual, to depend on geography?

How many people, between his death and Resurrection, (heck, even ones nearby) died simply because they hadn't heard of him yet?

When did one have to make the switch to Christianity from Judaism?  His initial birth? The day of Christ's death?  His rebirth?  What about the poor shlubs that died a few hours after this moment?  Did they really all go to hell?  That really sucks for them.

I'm trying my best not to sound condescending, but you have to see how unfortunate this seems to the rest of us, that a Christian murderer/rapist/kidnapper could "find Christ," while millions, if-not billions of Children and very good people who were DESPERATELY trying to find and be one with God, but had no access to understanding that Christ was even a person, could go to hell.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:03 pm

Pointedstick wrote:
Mountaineer wrote: My daughter-in-law struggles mightly with this because she sees Jewish people who are "good".  Unfortunately, their deeds while on this earth mean nothing to God as far as salvation goes.  At least, that is what the Word says and I believe it.
I respect that you believe this, but doesn't it seem a bit cruel? I wonder what God's motivation is in saving a repentant serial killer but not a Hindu who distributes food to the hungry. It just seems so… arbitrary and capricious, and it doesn't square with the "loving God" often referred to. I have difficulty reconciling these things.
Perfect subject to discuss with an LCMS Pastor.  All I can say is God's ways are not our ways and that God's Law has three purposes, to curb man's evil desires, to be a mirror so we can see how far we fall short of God's desire for us on how to live, and a guide for Christians to show us the way God wishes us to live and serve one another.  The overall purpose of the Law is to show us unquestionably why we need to hear the Gospel.  This is my opinion only, but it is kind of like Marine training, break 'em down and show 'em they are scumbags and need to be shown the way, then build them up to be a great Marine.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:04 pm

MediumTex wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:
MediumTex wrote: I don't know.  If the goal is to get closer to God as soon as possible, I would think that a shorter life expectancy would be better.

I would be like asking if you wanted to sit in the waiting room for 30 minutes or three hours.
Interesting point.  If you have three hours, you have longer to tell others about Jesus and thus possibly save them from Hell.  That is being the ultimate "good neighbor".    :)
I'm visualizing a couple of Mormon missionaries on bicycles saying something like: "Well, my real ambition is to simply ride around on this bike talking about Moroni and the celestial kingdom until the day I die, but I only get to do this for a couple of years and then I have to move on to other things."
ROFLOL! 
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:09 pm

moda0306 wrote: Mountaineer,

What about children?  Do they all go to hell if they don't believe in Jesus?

What about all the scores of people who had NO WAY of knowing who Jesus was, and didn't come to your One Truth?  Did those children/people get any kind of pass?

It seems to me that God made it extremely easy for some people to "hear Him" (those with Christianity all around them) than others... Isn't that kind of unfair?  A man in Africa or Asia in the wrong century could have spent his entire life trying to open his soul up to God and NEVER would he have known of who Jesus is.

Would God really make it THAT difficult for even the most dedicated of his children to find out his One Truth, while other people just get to stumble into the church and say, "Hmm, this Jesus sounds like a great guy and my soul feels connected to him and I believe his story"??

This just seems very convenient for Christians and inconvenient for those who have grown up in areas that, at some points in history, literally had NO way of knowing who Jesus was.  Do you think Jesus really wanted that?  For his message, and therefore the salvation of any one individual, to depend on geography?

How many people, between his death and Resurrection, (heck, even ones nearby) died simply because they hadn't heard of him yet?

When did one have to make the switch to Christianity from Judaism?  His initial birth? The day of Christ's death?  His rebirth?  What about the poor shlubs that died a few hours after this moment?  Did they really all go to hell?  That really sucks for them.

I'm trying my best not to sound condescending, but you have to see how unfortunate this seems to the rest of us, that a Christian murderer/rapist/kidnapper could "find Christ," while millions, if-not billions of Children and very good people who were DESPERATELY trying to find and be one with God, but had no access to understanding that Christ was even a person, could go to hell.
I addressed this in the answer to a MT post.  Once you allow God to just be God and you stop trying to be God, it will get easier (my experience).  However, there is almost ZERO that I can to to help you understand that.  Pray for the Holy Spirit.  I'm not sure what else to say on this line of questioning.  I agree it is very difficult to come to grips with.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by moda0306 » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:27 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Pointedstick wrote:
Mountaineer wrote: My daughter-in-law struggles mightly with this because she sees Jewish people who are "good".  Unfortunately, their deeds while on this earth mean nothing to God as far as salvation goes.  At least, that is what the Word says and I believe it.
I respect that you believe this, but doesn't it seem a bit cruel? I wonder what God's motivation is in saving a repentant serial killer but not a Hindu who distributes food to the hungry. It just seems so… arbitrary and capricious, and it doesn't square with the "loving God" often referred to. I have difficulty reconciling these things.
Perfect subject to discuss with an LCMS Pastor.  All I can say is God's ways are not our ways and that God's Law has three purposes, to curb man's evil desires, to be a mirror so we can see how far we fall short of God's desire for us on how to live, and a guide for Christians to show us the way God wishes us to live and serve one another.  The overall purpose of the Law is to show us unquestionably why we need to hear the Gospel.  This is my opinion only, but it is kind of like Marine training, break 'em down and show 'em they are scumbags and need to be shown the way, then build them up to be a great Marine.
This doesn't seem consistent.  If God's goals can be summed up in 1) don't do bad things, 2) show us how far short we come against His ideal, and 3) how to be good to one another, then why do we need the Gospel or a belief in Jesus?

What role does the gospel really play in all of this?  Do we think that Buddhist monks didn't avoid bad things and do good things due to a lack of exposure to the Gospel?  Do we think that a Buddhist didn't know how far short he might be lining up against God's ideal?

What use is the standard of believing in Jesus if we have millions of examples of where believing in Jesus didn't produce this, and millions of other examples where people who didn't even know who Jesus was, in general, behaved how God wanted us to?
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by moda0306 » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:38 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
moda0306 wrote: Mountaineer,

What about children?  Do they all go to hell if they don't believe in Jesus?

What about all the scores of people who had NO WAY of knowing who Jesus was, and didn't come to your One Truth?  Did those children/people get any kind of pass?

It seems to me that God made it extremely easy for some people to "hear Him" (those with Christianity all around them) than others... Isn't that kind of unfair?  A man in Africa or Asia in the wrong century could have spent his entire life trying to open his soul up to God and NEVER would he have known of who Jesus is.

Would God really make it THAT difficult for even the most dedicated of his children to find out his One Truth, while other people just get to stumble into the church and say, "Hmm, this Jesus sounds like a great guy and my soul feels connected to him and I believe his story"??

This just seems very convenient for Christians and inconvenient for those who have grown up in areas that, at some points in history, literally had NO way of knowing who Jesus was.  Do you think Jesus really wanted that?  For his message, and therefore the salvation of any one individual, to depend on geography?

How many people, between his death and Resurrection, (heck, even ones nearby) died simply because they hadn't heard of him yet?

When did one have to make the switch to Christianity from Judaism?  His initial birth? The day of Christ's death?  His rebirth?  What about the poor shlubs that died a few hours after this moment?  Did they really all go to hell?  That really sucks for them.

I'm trying my best not to sound condescending, but you have to see how unfortunate this seems to the rest of us, that a Christian murderer/rapist/kidnapper could "find Christ," while millions, if-not billions of Children and very good people who were DESPERATELY trying to find and be one with God, but had no access to understanding that Christ was even a person, could go to hell.
I addressed this in the answer to a MT post.  Once you allow God to just be God and you stop trying to be God, it will get easier (my experience).  However, there is almost ZERO that I can to to help you understand that.  Pray for the Holy Spirit.  I'm not sure what else to say on this line of questioning.  I agree it is very difficult to come to grips with.
You really can't help me understand how a monk eastern China 5 days after Christ dies and rose would NOT have even known he died/rose?

What about children?  Do they go to hell if they're not believers in Christ?  What if they're too young to even believe anything about God?

It's ok if the answer is "Yes, they would go to hell," or "I don't know."  I just don't understand some of the answers you give that seem to sorta divert the topic.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:52 pm

moda0306 wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:
Pointedstick wrote: I respect that you believe this, but doesn't it seem a bit cruel? I wonder what God's motivation is in saving a repentant serial killer but not a Hindu who distributes food to the hungry. It just seems so… arbitrary and capricious, and it doesn't square with the "loving God" often referred to. I have difficulty reconciling these things.
Perfect subject to discuss with an LCMS Pastor.  All I can say is God's ways are not our ways and that God's Law has three purposes, to curb man's evil desires, to be a mirror so we can see how far we fall short of God's desire for us on how to live, and a guide for Christians to show us the way God wishes us to live and serve one another.  The overall purpose of the Law is to show us unquestionably why we need to hear the Gospel.  This is my opinion only, but it is kind of like Marine training, break 'em down and show 'em they are scumbags and need to be shown the way, then build them up to be a great Marine.
This doesn't seem consistent.  If God's goals can be summed up in 1) don't do bad things, 2) show us how far short we come against His ideal, and 3) how to be good to one another, then why do we need the Gospel or a belief in Jesus?

What role does the gospel really play in all of this?  Do we think that Buddhist monks didn't avoid bad things and do good things due to a lack of exposure to the Gospel?  Do we think that a Buddhist didn't know how far short he might be lining up against God's ideal?

What use is the standard of believing in Jesus if we have millions of examples of where believing in Jesus didn't produce this, and millions of other examples where people who didn't even know who Jesus was, in general, behaved how God wanted us to?
I appologize for not communicating a clearly as possible.  I'll try some more.  From reading your notes, I think you may be confusing the two kingdoms.  God is in charge of both.  The vertical deals with God.  We humans have no free will in that kingdom (see Luther's "On the Bondage of the Will" where Luther was responding to Erasmus).  The horizontal deals with how we relate to each other.  We do have free will in the horizontal.  We can choose to help others, do good works, etc. whether or not we believe in Jesus (e.g. Buddhist, Mormon, Islamist, pagan).  The Law deals with what God tells us to do (how to live and treat each other - said another way, how to serve God by serving our neighbor).  The Law drives us to see we need desperately the Gospel.  The Gospel tells us what God has done for us (forgiveness of sin, his promises, being judged righteous by Jesus, etc.) and tells us we are saved - eternal life with God - as long as we believe that God came to earth, became man (Jesus), lived, died, and was resurrected and will come again to judge all.  Those who believed in the promises of God (e.g. Noah, Moses, David, Abraham, Job in the OT and a few billion of us since the crucifixion) get a free pass, they have been judged righteous ... they are saved and will live in the presence of God forever.  Those who don't believe will suffer eternal damnation - they chose that for themselves. 
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:02 pm

moda0306 wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:
moda0306 wrote: Mountaineer,

What about children?  Do they all go to hell if they don't believe in Jesus?

What about all the scores of people who had NO WAY of knowing who Jesus was, and didn't come to your One Truth?  Did those children/people get any kind of pass?

It seems to me that God made it extremely easy for some people to "hear Him" (those with Christianity all around them) than others... Isn't that kind of unfair?  A man in Africa or Asia in the wrong century could have spent his entire life trying to open his soul up to God and NEVER would he have known of who Jesus is.

Would God really make it THAT difficult for even the most dedicated of his children to find out his One Truth, while other people just get to stumble into the church and say, "Hmm, this Jesus sounds like a great guy and my soul feels connected to him and I believe his story"??

This just seems very convenient for Christians and inconvenient for those who have grown up in areas that, at some points in history, literally had NO way of knowing who Jesus was.  Do you think Jesus really wanted that?  For his message, and therefore the salvation of any one individual, to depend on geography?

How many people, between his death and Resurrection, (heck, even ones nearby) died simply because they hadn't heard of him yet?

When did one have to make the switch to Christianity from Judaism?  His initial birth? The day of Christ's death?  His rebirth?  What about the poor shlubs that died a few hours after this moment?  Did they really all go to hell?  That really sucks for them.

I'm trying my best not to sound condescending, but you have to see how unfortunate this seems to the rest of us, that a Christian murderer/rapist/kidnapper could "find Christ," while millions, if-not billions of Children and very good people who were DESPERATELY trying to find and be one with God, but had no access to understanding that Christ was even a person, could go to hell.
I addressed this in the answer to a MT post.  Once you allow God to just be God and you stop trying to be God, it will get easier (my experience).  However, there is almost ZERO that I can to to help you understand that.  Pray for the Holy Spirit.  I'm not sure what else to say on this line of questioning.  I agree it is very difficult to come to grips with.
You really can't help me understand how a monk eastern China 5 days after Christ dies and rose would NOT have even known he died/rose?

What about children?  Do they go to hell if they're not believers in Christ?  What if they're too young to even believe anything about God?

It's ok if the answer is "Yes, they would go to hell," or "I don't know."  I just don't understand some of the answers you give that seem to sorta divert the topic.
God says all will know.  How that will or has happened, I do not know any more than what the Scriptures tell us.  I do not understand the mind of God (his hidden side) and do not want to (the original sin).  One receives the gift of the Holy Spirit at Baptism.  Babies do not need to have an understanding of God (if they did, it would put the emphasis on man, not God.  That is the central issue with a decision based theology - emphasis on man desperately wanting to play a part in his salvation).  It is not about us, it is all about God.  God does it all.  Just do not reject the gift of faith.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:10 pm

Where did Xan and shoestring go?  I'm starting to feel rode hard and put up wet.  You people asking the questions are really, really smart and I'm just a plain ole Mountaineer trying my best to keep up ;) ;)


MediumTex,

Is this discussion meeting your expectations?  If not, what can we do to make it better?  I kind of feel we are not really dealing as much as we could be about your second paragraph items.  Are there additional questions we could kick around?  Serious question for MT and all.  If you think I'm digging in my heels on subjects, please tell me.  My intent is to just share why I see things the way I do, warts and all, and make a stab at effectively communicating my thoughts.  This discussion would be a whole lot more fun sitting around the table with a few bottles of beer or other favorite beverages becoming increasingly empty.  :)

MT's earlier post, in part said:

"I don't bring any position to this discussion other than a sincere desire to understand things better.  I grew up a Christian and still think of myself as a Christian, but more in the sense of a "follower of Christ" than as a subscriber to the typical "God took a mortal form in order to get the Jews back on track and offer the whole world a new post-modern form of Judaism."

"I have so many questions about Christianity as I used to understand it that I would like to discuss with people who still understand it in that way.  I just almost never get to have those discussions because it's so hard for people to look at their beliefs from the outside and discuss them in those terms.  If you would like to have that discussion, though, I would LOVE to have it, and not for the purpose of you making your case and others making their cases, but rather as a way of simply understanding how you arrived at your beliefs and what makes them durable for you. 

"I would like to return to the relaxed certainty I had about the world and eternity that I felt when I was younger, but I think that for many people (myself included) something happens at some point along the way that just causes the whole edifice of religion to crumble and it's very hard to put it back together because the crumbling feels like a part of becoming more mature psychologically.  I would contrast this experience with a person who becomes angry, frustrated, or bitter with respect to religion because it failed them in some way.  I wouldn't be angry at God any more than I would be angry with Santa Claus, and I really do miss the days when each of them were more real to me than they are today.

"I think that there are a lot of people here who would like to have the discussion I am describing.  I hate that discussions about religion get so hot when there is disagreement, in part because religious questions are really really really important questions.  If an immortal God wanted nothing more than for me to connect with Him, I would hate to miss out on something like that."
Last edited by Mountaineer on Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:21 pm

You're doing great!  I haven't been able to check in often enough this afternoon/evening to keep up with you.

Complaining about the people who aren't saved is looking at things backwards.  The miracle is that anyone at all is saved.  None of us deserve to be.  So it's a darn good thing God ISN'T fair, or we're all toast.

As for why didn't God just delete everything and start over once sin entered the world?  That's just plain old mercy.

Gosso, good videos you linked to.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Pointedstick » Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:28 pm

Xan wrote: As for why didn't God just delete everything and start over once sin entered the world?  That's just plain old mercy.
I thought God did that once with the great flood, though. I wonder why He didn't want to do it again.
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