Abortion and 19th Century Science

[vnatale]

Louis C.K. - If Murder Was Legal (3:25)

I like Louis so much, I made him my avatar earlier in the week. :-)

Still?

When the headlines came out about him in 2017, I had no idea who he was. And, this is the above is the first time I've read anyone write about him (aside from just seeing those headlines). I just did a search and saw that he is a comedian. And, that he is now again performing.

Vinny

[vnatale]

But weren't per-civilization mankind also deeply religious; they completely believed there were Gods watching over them (they had the fear of God).  I personally think that the Moral Law or Golden Rule is one of the strangest mysteries in the Universe.  Here is a quote from Immanuel Kant:

“Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the more often and steadily we reflect upon them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me. I do not seek or conjecture either of them as if they were veiled obscurities or extravagances beyond the horizon of my vision; I see them before me and connect them immediately with the consciousness of my existence."

Why does every single human being seem to be aware of some form of the Golden Rule?  I agree some people have polished their moral compass more than others, but there is no doubt something pushing down on every human to "be good".  But an even stranger thing is that almost nobody is "good", or if they are it is mostly superficial, only to satisfy themselves.  The Golden Rule pushes against our natural evolutionary instinct to think only for ourselves.  It is a constant war inside of our own minds. 

We admire saints and hate tyrants.  The saint has placed the Golden Rule at the center of their life, while the tyrant has placed their enormous ego at the center of their life.

For me this is one of strongest clues to their being a purpose or meaning behind the Universe.  IMO we should fear and love the Golden Rule, not just think it is a lovely concept that is impossible to follow.  But this requires a partial or complete sacrifice of the ego, which is not easy, maybe even impossible in today's culture.

I actually don't find it that hard to follow the Golden Rule, because I believe that what you do is what will be done to you, as a law of nature, although sometimes there is a time lag. Thus, being mean or vicious, or even merely disregarding the effects of my actions on others, will harm me.

My real question is why others don't see this. I want to say, "Look around you and see who is happy. Is it the liars, cheaters and thieves, or the honest people? So then why would you want to violate the Golden Rule?"

We obviously have a person leading our country who is the exact opposite of what you state above and, therefore, opposite to which you seem to stand for. Do you disagree?

Strictly on the basis of you stating your beliefs on this matter, if it was you running against him, you'd get my vote.

Vinny

[vnatale]

Child sacrifice then and now

January 24, 2014 By Gene Veith

Collin Garbarino tells of a controversy in archaeology about whether or not the ancient Carthaginians practiced child sacrifice, as the Romans always said they did.  Recently, evidence has arisen that they did, in fact, sacrifice children.  Some archaeologists, though, just won’t believe it.  Mr. Garbarino says that the Carthaginians sacrificed children for the same reason we do.

From Collin Garbarino, Child Sacrifice, Ancient and Modern:

Some things are just so horrible that we do not want to think about them. We do not want to believe they are true. This archeologist correctly notes that we ought to look at the Carthaginians honestly. But I think we need to look at ourselves honestly too.

She said, “We like to think that we’re quite close to the ancient world, that they were really just like us—the truth is, I’m afraid that they really weren’t.”? I, on the other hand, am afraid that we are too much like them.

How is American abortion so very different from what the Carthaginians did? Priests killed their children in a temple, and abortionists kill our children in a clinic. Carthaginian parents expected favors from their gods if they offered their children. They expected a better life. Why do we abort our children?

Americans abort their children because they believe they’ll have a better life. Maybe they want better health by not undergoing the rigors of pregnancy. Maybe they expect that their career opportunities will be better without a child. Maybe they just don’t want to shop at Costco.

Carthaginians killed babies because they wanted a better life. We kill babies because we want a better life. The only difference that I can see is that the Carthaginians sacrificed children to their gods, while we just sacrifice them to ourselves.

But this level of selfishness is too terrible to think about, so most of us will turn a blind eye to our atrocities, just as most scholars have refused to see the atrocities of the Carthaginians.

To counter that the world is getting worse.....the above and this...

https://blogs.kent.ac.uk/lucius-romans/ ... ient-rome/

...both state that in ancient times actual born children were either killed or left to die. I don't know (I'm sure, though, that someone here does) if there were abortions in ancient times? However, is it not some form of progress (and not things getting worse) that nowhere in today's civilized world is it permissible to sacrifice born children or to let unwanted born children to die?

For the record on an intellectual level, I'm 100% anti-abortion with NO exceptions. If one believes that abortion is the taking of a life than there can be no exceptions. I never can understand the logical inconsistency of those who say they are pro-life but believe in the exception in the cases of rape or incest. How do those reasons negate the taking of a human life (if that is what you believe). My views have been somewhat tempered that I'm only speaking the theoretical in that never would I have to face the decision of whether or not I should have an abortion.

And, a friend and I like to think we are true pro-life: Anti-abortion, supporting single / poor mothers, anti-war.

On the other hand we see the Democrats as being for abortion but wanting to take care of the child once born and being less militaristic of taking human life while Republicans are anti-abortion but you are on your own once they mandate you to have a baby and they'll also send the baby to later get killed in some useless war while also killing some other grown up babies (and, as a write that realizing that they will actually be killing real babies as "collateral damage").

Vinny

[boglerdude]

Can we get a rolling list of the regulations he removes

[vnatale]

I actually don't find it that hard to follow the Golden Rule, because I believe that what you do is what will be done to you, as a law of nature, although sometimes there is a time lag. Thus, being mean or vicious, or even merely disregarding the effects of my actions on others, will harm me.

My real question is why others don't see this. I want to say, "Look around you and see who is happy. Is it the liars, cheaters and thieves, or the honest people? So then why would you want to violate the Golden Rule?"

We obviously have a person leading our country who is the exact opposite of what you state above and, therefore, opposite to which you seem to stand for. Do you disagree?

Strictly on the basis of you stating your beliefs on this matter, if it was you running against him, you'd get my vote.

Vinny

Thank you for your support, but I disagree very strongly on President Trump. I believe that while of course he is not a libertarian (nor has he ever claimed to be one), he is the least non-libertarian President of my lifetime.

Why do I say this?

He has cut taxes and regulations, especially the latter.
He has been trying to end the Korean War with some progress seeming to have been made.
He has been interfering with Iran's terrorism but almost entirely by financial means other than the killing of a mass murderer, which doesn't bother me.
He has been instrumental in the Right to Try Act, the First Step Act, and a number of other laws that have reduced the interference of the government in society.
He is very inclusive, welcoming people of all races and religions into his movement. Just watch a rally sometime if you haven't done so already; there are plenty of women and minority members, and even quite a few Democrats if you believe his campaign manager's statistics gathered from the people waiting in line for days to see him.
He almost never attacks anyone verbally without first being attacked himself, which is a valid justification for defensive action. Of course in his case he has been attacked 24/7 by the mainstream media and the Democrat party, with very little support from others in the Republican party.

So why do you say that he is the exact opposite of what I was stating? Please be specific.
[/quote]

Let me first start by quoting here what you said above with bolding all I believe he is (in the negative) and is not (in the positive).

"Thus, being mean or vicious, or even merely disregarding the effects of my actions on others, will harm me.

My real question is why others don't see this. I want to say, "Look around you and see who is happy. Is it the liars, cheaters and thieves, or the honest people?"

I'll say without a doubt he is NOT honest. He is: mean, vicious, disregards the effects of his actions on others, is a First Ballot Hall of Fame Superstar LIAR (being only second to Mariano Rivera to get this vote from EVERYONE), a cheater, and a thief!

And, I'm glad that none of them describe you!

And, I still think there is hope for you (politically) since you have told us that you voted for Bernie in the primaries (something I'd NEVER EVER do under any circumstances) and that you voted for Obama in 2012 (I gleefully voted for him in both elections, although Hillary in the 2008 primaries). Therefore you can be both MORE liberal and MORE conservative than me, depending upon what else is going on.

Regarding your next list, which was NOT what I was addressing -- I was only addressing your description of your version of the Golden Rule...but I will address each of them.

Cutting taxes? I'm neither for high or low taxes. Just if you are going to spend then you'd better tax to cover that spending. And, he clearly is not doing that. Just a big lie of how he was going to wipe out the deficit in four years.

Regulations? We need some. What is the right balance? I'd not trust him to be capable of deciding which ones to keep and which ones to get rid of.

Ending the Korean War. Great if he can do it. But again it seems like he's been getting played on that one.

Yes, he's been interfering with Iran's way of life. But he also unilaterally walked away from an agreement which was keeping them in their place. Big negative on this one.

I plead ignorance regarding both: Right to Try Act, the First Step Act. Therefore, I plead nolo and throw myself at the mercy of the court!

I'd not say he is welcoming at all! That is borne out in that after three years he's never had higher than a 46% approval rating. How can that be with the economy and market returns we've had since he's been president? He has to therefore be doing SOMETHING wrong? And, since I absolutely love C-Span I have it on a lot. Whenever he comes on I keep watching. And, then sometimes I watch and listen to it again on my computer! I could not dislike Obama's predecessor any more than I did (and still do). Trump still has not done 10% of the damage to our country and the world than Obama's predecessor did. But back to Trump and his rallies. I watch (but am mainly listening while doing something else) because I find him so fascinating and entertaining. Prior to him running for president I'd only heard of him, never having prior seen him or heard him talk. The rallies are great TV viewing even though I disagree with just about everything he says at them. As I just stated I had / have a white hot intense dislike of Obama's predecessor. I just don't have that emotional dislike of Trump. He IS a charmer as odious as his words and tweets too oftentimes may be!

His attacks? He is extremely thin skinned. He is like the bully who cries once you confront the bully with a tiny portion of what the bully has regularly been dishing out.

I'll conclude with these questions (and you can tell me if they are valid questions to ask at all).

Are these good measures for our president, who in this particular case happens to be Trump?

1. Would you want your child to marry him?
2. Would you want to be a co-worker of his?
3. And, maybe the biggest one of all. You have worked all your life to create this highly successful business which you own 100%. You've done the whole entrepreneurial thing working way too many 50, 60 hour weeks for years on end. Now it's time for you to sit back, enjoy the fruits of all that work, and turn over the day-to-day running of the company to a president while you remain 100% owner. Would you turn over the reins of the company to the brilliant businessman aka Donald Trump? A man who turns 74 years old in five months from now. Before you answer, your equity in your company represents your ENTIRE net worth. You going to do it??!! I would certainly NOT do it! And, I certainly don't want him running my country! (Nor do I want Biden / Warren / Bernie doing so, either!)

Vinny

[Mountaineer]

<snip>

I'll conclude with these questions (and you can tell me if they are valid questions to ask at all).

Are these good measures for our president, who in this particular case happens to be Trump?

1. Would you want your child to marry him?
2. Would you want to be a co-worker of his?
3. And, maybe the biggest one of all. You have worked all your life to create this highly successful business which you own 100%. You've done the whole entrepreneurial thing working way too many 50, 60 hour weeks for years on end. Now it's time for you to sit back, enjoy the fruits of all that work, and turn over the day-to-day running of the company to a president while you remain 100% owner. Would you turn over the reins of the company to the brilliant businessman aka Donald Trump? A man who turns 74 years old in five months from now. Before you answer, your equity in your company represents your ENTIRE net worth. You going to do it??!! I would certainly NOT do it! And, I certainly don't want him running my country! (Nor do I want Biden / Warren / Bernie doing so, either!)

Vinny

I'm not Libertarian666 but I can't resist responding. You ask:

Are these good measures for our president?

1. No - (I want a leader for president, not a son-in-law who "might" think he has to be nice to me); way too subjective a question/criteria.
2. No - this is another question based on "nice guy or not" as being the most important qualification; way too subjective a question/criteria.
3. No - I do not want a king or dictator for a leader (regardless of potential ageism bias); I prefer the Constitutional Republic we currently have with all the various checks and balances; ditto for a corporate CEO/Board of Directors/Stockholders model aimed at mutual accountability and responsibility. I would never turn over my assets to a "one-person in charge" company. Concentration of power in one person rarely works out well.

Objective criteria shoud be used for presidential selection purposes, i.e. the objective results the person has accomplished in their life/career AND the trend of his predecessors accomplishments should be examined, the hand dealt when coming into a given situation. Favorable results are usually achieved by those able to learn from their mistakes, get up and try again, and lead regardless of a "nice guy" persona. Being a nice guy is a bonus, not the base pay. I would say that being a "just" guy ("just" being based upon objective criteria) along with a "mercy" guy when others screw up is valuable.

YMMV

[vnatale]

<snip>

I'll conclude with these questions (and you can tell me if they are valid questions to ask at all).

Are these good measures for our president, who in this particular case happens to be Trump?

1. Would you want your child to marry him?
2. Would you want to be a co-worker of his?
3. And, maybe the biggest one of all. You have worked all your life to create this highly successful business which you own 100%. You've done the whole entrepreneurial thing working way too many 50, 60 hour weeks for years on end. Now it's time for you to sit back, enjoy the fruits of all that work, and turn over the day-to-day running of the company to a president while you remain 100% owner. Would you turn over the reins of the company to the brilliant businessman aka Donald Trump? A man who turns 74 years old in five months from now. Before you answer, your equity in your company represents your ENTIRE net worth. You going to do it??!! I would certainly NOT do it! And, I certainly don't want him running my country! (Nor do I want Biden / Warren / Bernie doing so, either!)

Vinny

I'm not Libertarian666 but I can't resist responding. You ask:

Are these good measures for our president?

1. No - (I want a leader for president, not a son-in-law who "might" think he has to be nice to me); way too subjective a question/criteria.
2. No - this is another question based on "nice guy or not" as being the most important qualification; way too subjective a question/criteria.
3. No - I do not want a king or dictator for a leader (regardless of potential ageism bias); I prefer the Constitutional Republic we currently have with all the various checks and balances; ditto for a corporate CEO/Board of Directors/Stockholders model aimed at mutual accountability and responsibility. I would never turn over my assets to a "one-person in charge" company. Concentration of power in one person rarely works out well.

Objective criteria shoud be used for presidential selection purposes, i.e. the objective results the person has accomplished in their life/career AND the trend of his predecessors accomplishments should be examined, the hand dealt when coming into a given situation. Favorable results are usually achieved by those able to learn from their mistakes, get up and try again, and lead regardless of a "nice guy" persona. Being a nice guy is a bonus, not the base pay. I would say that being a "just" guy ("just" being based upon objective criteria) along with a "mercy" guy when others screw up is valuable.

YMMV

1 & 2 are far more than being a "nice guy". They take into account the character of the person. Is the person reliable, fair and does his / her fair share, trustworthy, upstanding, consistent, responsible, effective in all relationships (personal and business / organizational), hard working (whether at work / as a spouse / as a parent), possess requisite intelligence for the task at hand (again, whether at work / as spouse / as a parent), health oriented, not a narcissist but selfless...I hope that paints a better picture of what I mean beyond being a "nice guy".

3. But in my hypothetical, you HAD BEEN the one person in whom all the power was concentrated. That's typical and the norm in thousands and thousands of the successful businesses in our country. So, answer the hypothetical question as posed. You are only going to hire one person to fulfill this needed role for you for where you are at this point in your life. Would you hire Donald Trump today to fulfill that role for you?

I totally agree that objective criteria should be used in choosing a president. I don't think the vast electorate looks upon being the president as an actual job. That is one of my main objections to Bernie and his supporters. It's a real job; it's not one which is confined to simply running around giving speeches whenever one feels like it.

Vinny

[Mountaineer]

<snip>

I'll conclude with these questions (and you can tell me if they are valid questions to ask at all).

Are these good measures for our president, who in this particular case happens to be Trump?

1. Would you want your child to marry him?
2. Would you want to be a co-worker of his?
3. And, maybe the biggest one of all. You have worked all your life to create this highly successful business which you own 100%. You've done the whole entrepreneurial thing working way too many 50, 60 hour weeks for years on end. Now it's time for you to sit back, enjoy the fruits of all that work, and turn over the day-to-day running of the company to a president while you remain 100% owner. Would you turn over the reins of the company to the brilliant businessman aka Donald Trump? A man who turns 74 years old in five months from now. Before you answer, your equity in your company represents your ENTIRE net worth. You going to do it??!! I would certainly NOT do it! And, I certainly don't want him running my country! (Nor do I want Biden / Warren / Bernie doing so, either!)

Vinny

I'm not Libertarian666 but I can't resist responding. You ask:

Are these good measures for our president?

1. No - (I want a leader for president, not a son-in-law who "might" think he has to be nice to me); way too subjective a question/criteria.
2. No - this is another question based on "nice guy or not" as being the most important qualification; way too subjective a question/criteria.
3. No - I do not want a king or dictator for a leader (regardless of potential ageism bias); I prefer the Constitutional Republic we currently have with all the various checks and balances; ditto for a corporate CEO/Board of Directors/Stockholders model aimed at mutual accountability and responsibility. I would never turn over my assets to a "one-person in charge" company. Concentration of power in one person rarely works out well.

Objective criteria shoud be used for presidential selection purposes, i.e. the objective results the person has accomplished in their life/career AND the trend of his predecessors accomplishments should be examined, the hand dealt when coming into a given situation. Favorable results are usually achieved by those able to learn from their mistakes, get up and try again, and lead regardless of a "nice guy" persona. Being a nice guy is a bonus, not the base pay. I would say that being a "just" guy ("just" being based upon objective criteria) along with a "mercy" guy when others screw up is valuable.

YMMV

1 & 2 are far more than being a "nice guy". They take into account the character of the person. Is the person reliable, fair and does his / her fair share, trustworthy, upstanding, consistent, responsible, effective in all relationships (personal and business / organizational), hard working (whether at work / as a spouse / as a parent), possess requisite intelligence for the task at hand (again, whether at work / as spouse / as a parent), health oriented, not a narcissist but selfless...I hope that paints a better picture of what I mean beyond being a "nice guy".

3. But in my hypothetical, you HAD BEEN the one person in whom all the power was concentrated. That's typical and the norm in thousands and thousands of the successful businesses in our country. So, answer the hypothetical question as posed. You are only going to hire one person to fulfill this needed role for you for where you are at this point in your life. Would you hire Donald Trump today to fulfill that role for you?

I totally agree that objective criteria should be used in choosing a president. I don't think the vast electorate looks upon being the president as an actual job. That is one of my main objections to Bernie and his supporters. It's a real job; it's not one which is confined to simply running around giving speeches whenever one feels like it.

Vinny

Re your 1 & 2 comment: Who gets to decide the criteria you propose and if one measures up? (Can't just be on what YOU think or feel if it is to be truly objective and outside a person, that is the external source that is agreed upon by everyone as THE criteria).

Re 3. Yes, I thought about that. I know I'm currently in charge of my "business"; I know it better than any other person and I am not a mind reader to select who would have my desires. No one person can replace me. Thus my comments above about not concentrating power in one person to run my "business" in my stead. Your hypothetical is not relevant in my worldview; thus, I answered "No" to it being a valid measure for selecting Donald Trump to run my business, or the country.

... M

[vnatale]

I'll conclude with these questions (and you can tell me if they are valid questions to ask at all).
Are these good measures for our president, who in this particular case happens to be Trump?

1. Would you want your child to marry him?
2. Would you want to be a co-worker of his?
3. And, maybe the biggest one of all. You have worked all your life to create this highly successful business which you own 100%. You've done the whole entrepreneurial thing working way too many 50, 60 hour weeks for years on end. Now it's time for you to sit back, enjoy the fruits of all that work, and turn over the day-to-day running of the company to a president while you remain 100% owner. Would you turn over the reins of the company to the brilliant businessman aka Donald Trump? A man who turns 74 years old in five months from now. Before you answer, your equity in your company represents your ENTIRE net worth. You going to do it??!! I would certainly NOT do it! And, I certainly don't want him running my country! (Nor do I want Biden / Warren / Bernie doing so, either!)

Vinny

1. Irrelevant to whether he is a good President. He has been a good provider for his wives and children but so what?
2. Yes, assuming I was capable of doing the tasks he needed me to do. He is by all accounts a strict boss but one who rewards excellence.
3. He wouldn't understand the technical aspects of my business, so I wouldn't want him to be CEO, although he would be a great Chief Marketing Officer. However, he is doing a very good job overall as CEO of the US federal government, which of course is not a tech company.

1. Faithful to his wives / his marriage vows? Respectful towards his wives? Again this reveals character. Why should I trust someone in his presidential duties when he's proven to be untrustworthy in his marital relationships? The character somehow changes when he's doing presidential duties?

2. I said co-worker, not boss. Think of your favorite co-workers. You'd see him performing similarly? Becoming one of your favorite co-workers? My favorite co-workers are the ones who have been the high producers in the workplace. And, there is a lot (of good qualities) that goes along with being a high producer.

3. Does he understand the technical aspects of our country? What were his prior qualifications? What has he done to buttress any areas in which he was weak to perform his duties?

Vinny

[vnatale]

I'll conclude with these questions (and you can tell me if they are valid questions to ask at all).
Are these good measures for our president, who in this particular case happens to be Trump?

1. Would you want your child to marry him?
2. Would you want to be a co-worker of his?
3. And, maybe the biggest one of all. You have worked all your life to create this highly successful business which you own 100%. You've done the whole entrepreneurial thing working way too many 50, 60 hour weeks for years on end. Now it's time for you to sit back, enjoy the fruits of all that work, and turn over the day-to-day running of the company to a president while you remain 100% owner. Would you turn over the reins of the company to the brilliant businessman aka Donald Trump? A man who turns 74 years old in five months from now. Before you answer, your equity in your company represents your ENTIRE net worth. You going to do it??!! I would certainly NOT do it! And, I certainly don't want him running my country! (Nor do I want Biden / Warren / Bernie doing so, either!)

Vinny

1. Irrelevant to whether he is a good President. He has been a good provider for his wives and children but so what?
2. Yes, assuming I was capable of doing the tasks he needed me to do. He is by all accounts a strict boss but one who rewards excellence.
3. He wouldn't understand the technical aspects of my business, so I wouldn't want him to be CEO, although he would be a great Chief Marketing Officer. However, he is doing a very good job overall as CEO of the US federal government, which of course is not a tech company.

1. Faithful to his wives / his marriage vows? Respectful towards his wives? Again this reveals character. Why should I trust someone in his presidential duties when he's proven to be untrustworthy in his marital relationships? The character somehow changes when he's doing presidential duties?

2. I said co-worker, not boss. Think of your favorite co-workers. You'd see him performing similarly? Becoming one of your favorite co-workers? My favorite co-workers are the ones who have been the high producers in the workplace. And, there is a lot (of good qualities) that goes along with being a high producer.

3. Does he understand the technical aspects of our country? What were his prior qualifications? What has he done to buttress any areas in which he was weak to perform his duties?

Vinny

1. Still irrelevant to whether he is a good President.
2. He would probably be a very good co-worker. He is very hard working and co-operative if you are on the same team as he is.
3. He understands the technical aspects of the federal government well enough to do a better job than any of his predecessors in the last 100 years, so he gets a good score on that as well.

I think we end here. I respect your obvious intelligence. We have different judgments and have each stated them. We are not going convince one another of the other's judgements.

Vinny

[vnatale]

of his predecessors in the last 100 years, so he gets a good score on that as well.

I think we end here. I respect your obvious intelligence. We have different judgments and have each stated them. We are not going convince one another of the other's judgements.

Vinny

Sounds fine to me.
[/quote]

Plus, you have the FAR superior writing abilities and the greater ability to express yourself, putting me at a disadvantage!

Vinny

[Libertarian666]

of his predecessors in the last 100 years, so he gets a good score on that as well.

I think we end here. I respect your obvious intelligence. We have different judgments and have each stated them. We are not going convince one another of the other's judgements.

Vinny

Sounds fine to me.

Plus, you have the FAR superior writing abilities and the greater ability to express yourself, putting me at a disadvantage!

Vinny

So my plan for world domination is working!