Abortion and 19th Century Science

[Gosso]

The abortion debate strikes me as an unsolvable one for two reasons, the first being that it pits two moral certainties against one another:

If you are absolutely certain of the moral position that life begins at conception, then abortion is nothing more than socially-acceptable murder of a helpless, innocent human.

If, on the other hand, you are absolutely certain that women have the right to their own bodies during pregnancy, than restricting women's choices in that field--even if abortion is murder, crucially--is essentially enslavement of one half of the human race.

Even if you agree that abortion is murder, maybe you can think that effectively enslaving women is the worse evil. In this case, you have to say that one right is more important than another. This gets us into the second major problem: we have to wade into the messy realm of rights being political creations that can be defined, re-defined, and weighed against one another by the government.

What does the "right to life" actually mean? Does it mean the right not to get murdered? Then abortion violates it. But is a component of it the ability to live your own life free from other people telling you what you can and can't do with your own body? Then restricting abortion violates it. We have a classic clash where two asserted rights directly oppose one another, and each side feels strongly enough that there's no real societal consensus.

And note that both versions of "right to life" represent restraints on the actions of other people! That's why I think the concept of rights actually leads to incredible polarization in non-homogenous communities: every right actually represents a negative claim on the behavior of other people, which they will naturally resent if they feel differently from you.

Not according to the modern day philosopher Kayne West (3:41): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vwNcNOTVzY

She take my money, when I'm in need
Yea she's a trifling friend indeed
Oh, she's a gold digger, way over town
That digs on me

[Hook]
(She give me money) Now I ain't saying she a gold digger
(When I'm in need) But she ain't messing with no broke niggas
(She give me money) Now I ain't saying she a gold digger
(When I'm in need) But she ain't messing with no broke niggas
Get down girl, go 'head, get down (I gotta leave)

[Verse 1]
Cutie the bomb, met her at a beauty salon
With a baby Louis Vuitton under her underarm
She said I can tell you rock, I can tell by your charm
Far as girls you got a flock, I can tell by your charm and your arm
But I'm looking for the one, have you seen her?
My psychic told me she'll have a ass like Serena
Trina, Jennifer Lopez, four kids
And I gotta take all they bad asses to showbiz?
Ok, get your kids but then they got their friends
I pulled up in the Benz, they all got up in
We all went to din and then I had to pay
If you fucking with this girl then you better be paid
You know why? It take too much to touch her
From what I heard she got a baby by Busta
My best friend say she use to fuck with Usher
I don't care what none of y'all say, I still love her

[Hook]

[Verse 2]
18 years, 18 years
She got one of your kids, got you for 18 years
I know somebody paying child support for one of his kids
His baby momma's car and crib is bigger than his
You will see him on TV any given Sunday
Win the Super Bowl and drive off in a Hyundai
She was supposed to buy your shorty Tyco with your money
She went to the doctor got lipo with your money
She walking around looking like Michael with your money
Should've got that insured, Geico for your money
If you ain't no punk, holla "We want prenup"
"We want prenup" Yeah
It's something that you need to have
Cause when she leave your ass she gonna leave with half
18 years, 18 years
And on the 18th birthday he found out it wasn't his?!

[Hook]

[Verse 3]
Now I ain't saying you a gold digger, you got needs
You don't want a dude to smoke but he can't buy weed
You go out to eat and he can't pay, y'all can't leave
There's dishes in the back, he gotta roll up his sleeves
But while y'all washing watch him
He gone make it into a Benz out of that Datsun
He got that ambition baby look in his eyes
This week he mopping floors next week it's the fries
So stick by his side
I know there's dudes balling and yeah that's nice
And they gonna keep calling and trying but you stay right girl
And when you get on he leave your ass for a white girl

Both the man and woman are enslaved by the child.

[Pointedstick]

Both the man and woman are enslaved by the child.

Hah, true enough! I was talking more about the pregnancy, though. We don't abort children!

[Gosso]

Both the man and woman are enslaved by the child.

Hah, true enough! I was talking more about the pregnancy, though. We don't abort children!

True.  But then we are enslaving only the woman for the nine months and it seems mother nature does all the heavy lifting, while I'd imagine the father (if he is still around) needs to put up with a lot as well.  It seems to me the burden is placed fairly evenly for both the man and woman...but I haven't had any kids yet, so what do I know.

[Ad Orientem]

Both the man and woman are enslaved by the child.

Hah, true enough! I was talking more about the pregnancy, though. We don't abort children!

Why not? What's the difference between a late third trimester fetus and newborn child? From my perspective the only difference is mainly geographic, perhaps 1-2 feet.

[Pointedstick]

Hah, true enough! I was talking more about the pregnancy, though. We don't abort children!

Why not? What's the difference between a late third trimester fetus and newborn child? From my perspective the only difference is mainly geographic, perhaps 1-2 feet.

The difference is that it's not socially acceptable. Leaving the birth canal is a very strong and symbolic moment. Arbitrary, maybe, but that's how an awful lot of people seem to feel about it.

[Ad Orientem]

Hah, true enough! I was talking more about the pregnancy, though. We don't abort children!

Why not? What's the difference between a late third trimester fetus and newborn child? From my perspective the only difference is mainly geographic, perhaps 1-2 feet.

The difference is that it's not socially acceptable. Leaving the birth canal is a very strong and symbolic moment. Arbitrary, maybe, but that's how an awful lot of people seem to feel about it.

That's an honest, if extremely chilling, answer. One that I respect for its straight forwardness along with those feminists who say that parents should not be forced to bear the burden of unwanted children until they attain a certain age or degree of development. That is to say they should have the option of euthanizing (humanely of course) unwanted children up to perhaps 1 year or so after birth.

It's an honest position.

And one that demonstrates the depth of moral depravity to which the developed world has sunk.

[Pointedstick]

It's an honest position.

And one that demonstrates the depth of moral depravity to which the developed world has sunk.

If this moral depravity is visible in how we victimize the innocent, let me remind you of scaphism, human sacrifice, witch burning, and forcing someone to ingest a snake that ate its way out of his stomach--in the name of Christianity, no less!

I for one am pretty happy that we've outgrown that kind of barbarism. Maybe we're simply doomed to substitute one form for another as we outgrow our brutal old habits but take on new ones as society evolves faster than our sense of morality.

[Mountaineer]

It's an honest position.

And one that demonstrates the depth of moral depravity to which the developed world has sunk.

If this moral depravity is visible in how we victimize the innocent, let me remind you of scaphism, human sacrifice, witch burning, and forcing someone to ingest a snake that ate its way out of his stomach--in the name of Christianity, no less!

I for one am pretty happy that we've outgrown that kind of barbarism. Maybe we're simply doomed to substitute one form for another as we outgrow our brutal old habits but take on new ones as society evolves faster than our sense of morality.

That's a horrific list of evils there. 

My belief is that humankind is not progressing toward a higher moral state.  Nor do I think we're getting worse.  It seems to me that we're pretty much staying the same, and in the case of this topic, just substituting a more hidden barbarism (abortion) for some of the more visible acts of the past. 

And I think the invisibility of abortion is what helps it to survive.  It doesn't sound that bad, and it's embraced by good progressives that support women's rights, are anti-war, etc.  I think if we all had to stand in a clinic and observe the process up close, that we'd view it very differently.  And some of us would be forced to actually try to do something to attempt to stop it. 

By the way, I don't necessarily primarily blame the women getting the abortions.  The choice for abortion is presented by our society as a decent, even responsible, option.  Now the clinic doctors ... I do wonder how they sleep at night.  At least the SS guards could claim they were ordered to do their killing.

Perhaps we should rename "abortion" and "womens rights" to what it really is.  Something like "Mother chooses death for her child", or more realistically, "Procedure to kill unwanted humans" or "My right to party superceeds your right to live".  Where is Josef Mengele when you need his perspective?

[dualstow]

Perhaps we should rename "abortion" and "womens rights" to what it really is.  Something like "Mother chooses death for her child", or more realistically, "Procedure to kill unwanted humans" or "My right to party superceeds your right to live".  Where is Josef Mengele when you need his perspective?

I don't think you're shedding more light than heat here. Maybe you should follow your own suggestion.

[Mountaineer]

Perhaps we should rename "abortion" and "womens rights" to what it really is.  Something like "Mother chooses death for her child", or more realistically, "Procedure to kill unwanted humans" or "My right to party superceeds your right to live".  Where is Josef Mengele when you need his perspective?

I don't think you're shedding more light than heat here. Maybe you should follow your own suggestion.

Thank you.  I do  respect your opinion, but I was intending to only speak the truth (except for the Mengele part for which I apologize for bad-mouthing Mengele; he did not kill nearly so many people as Roe vs. Wade - a fact).  My comments really were the truth as best I understand it.  Call a thing what it is, I do not care for the sugar coated terminology such as "womens rights" used to advance evil agendas.  And if this is more heat than light, I again appologize.

[Gosso]

Perhaps look at it from the males perspective.  He is needed for only a few seconds.  At this point he is done and the little life will grow on its own (provided the mother eats enough food).  At this point the only way to stop this little life is from a natural death (miscarriage, etc), or if a human being willingly decides that this life should be stopped.  To me this is clearly murder.  The ball has been set into motion at conception, and the willful act of a human to stop this at any point is murder.

There is also the moral compass that pushes down on all of us, if you look to that then you'll quite clearly find the answer - no matter how you try to rationally explain it away.

[Tortoise]

For those of you who feel that a woman should have the right to choose an abortion for reasons other than rape or risk to her life, how would you feel about chemical sterilization of that woman (either forced or at least strongly encouraged) for a certain number of years afterward?

After all, the woman clearly doesn't want to have children--at least not right now. Why not help her achieve that goal through chemical sterilization, since more traditional methods of contraception don't seem to be working very well for her?

Perhaps the sterilization could be lifted after a few years, after the woman has had time to (hopefully) develop a bit more maturity and perhaps be in a better situation in her life where she's willing to have a child and be a responsible, loving parent?

[dualstow]

Perhaps we should rename "abortion" and "womens rights" to what it really is.  Something like "Mother chooses death for her child", or more realistically, "Procedure to kill unwanted humans" or "My right to party superceeds your right to live".  Where is Josef Mengele when you need his perspective?

I don't think you're shedding more light than heat here. Maybe you should follow your own suggestion.

Thank you.  I do  respect your opinion, but I was intending to only speak the truth (except for the Mengele part for which I apologize for bad-mouthing Mengele; he did not kill nearly so many people as Roe vs. Wade - a fact).

Mengele was a sadist who, among other things, injected dye into children's eyes to see what would happen. Abortion may be murder, but even if it is, it's got nothing to do with sadism. I can't accept your apology if you're going to keep making a connection between the two.

[Pointedstick]

For those of you who feel that a woman should have the right to choose an abortion for reasons other than rape or risk to her life, how would you feel about chemical sterilization of that woman (either forced or at least strongly encouraged) for a certain number of years afterward?

After all, the woman clearly doesn't want to have children--at least not right now. Why not help her achieve that goal through chemical sterilization, since more traditional methods of contraception don't seem to be working very well for her?

Perhaps the sterilization could be lifted after a few years, after the woman has had time to (hopefully) develop a bit more maturity and perhaps be in a better situation in her life where she's willing to have a child and be a responsible, loving parent?

To be honest, that sounds rather monstrous to me. Permitting the state to directly determine who can and cannot reproduce--even only temporarily--strikes me as an exceptionally dangerous slope to begin sliding down.

And from a utilitarian perspective, anybody who publicly expresses such an opinion is likely to lose the support of approximately 100% of women who hear it. This is, I believe, one of the problems that the Republican party is having right now. There is a wing composed of people who say things of that nature that make big honkin' alarm bells go off in the mind of any woman who hears it.

[Pointedstick]

And for the record, I reluctantly support the legality of abortion in the first trimester. So you have heard from an "abortion supporter." That term isn't really accurate IMHO. Very few people are in favor of abortion itself; being "pro choice" (I hate that term too) is really more about supporting abortion being legal. There aren't a lot of women who are really excited to kill their in-utero baby. All of the women I know who have had abortions have described it as a wrenching experience and emotionally scarring. Some have even very plainly and frankly said that what they did was murder. It's a hard decision for most women, and that's something that I think it's important to keep in mind. It's not like the common case is some thoughtless bimbo who callously kills her unborn children for the hell of it because she's too stupid to use birth control, which is the position that a lot of pro-life people seem to express.

[Gosso]

Perhaps look at it from the males perspective.  He is needed for only a few seconds.  At this point he is done and the little life will grow on its own (provided the mother eats enough food).  At this point the only way to stop this little life is from a natural death (miscarriage, etc), or if a human being willingly decides that this life should be stopped.  To me this is clearly murder.  The ball has been set into motion at conception, and the willful act of a human to stop this at any point is murder.

There is also the moral compass that pushes down on all of us, if you look to that then you'll quite clearly find the answer - no matter how you try to rationally explain it away.

Gosso, you stated that well.  I agree completely.

Thanks...I stole it from C.S. Lewis.

Now that I got the wheels turning here is another thought.  What is the purpose of sex?  Is it mainly for fun or is to create new life?  If you are participating in the act of sexual intercourse then you need to be held responsible for your actions.  It might be fun to drive 100 miles/hour down the highway, but if you cause an accident and kill someone, you cannot avoid the consequences by saying you just wanted to have some fun.  The woman and man were fully aware of the risks they were taking (unless you consider the act of sex a form of temporary insanity, but even drunk drivers could be considered temporarily insane).  The man is already required to help support the child for the first 18 years of the child’s life, so it is not only the woman that becomes enslaved to the child.

[Tortoise]

To be honest, that sounds rather monstrous to me. Permitting the state to directly determine who can and cannot reproduce--even only temporarily--strikes me as an exceptionally dangerous slope to begin sliding down.

I agree it's a slippery slope. But as for the idea of forced sterilization being "monstrous," I think the ideas of (1) digging a fetus out of a woman's womb and (2) bringing a completely unwanted child into a cruel, harsh world filled with poverty and neglect are even more monstrous. Of those three ideas, I actually find forced sterilization to be the least monstrous.

Do I think it's politically feasible? Absolutely not. I just think it's an interesting idea to discuss.

And by the way, the emotionally-charged adjective "monstrous" probably falls under the category of "more heat than light." So I'll stop using it if you do

[AdamA]

Abortion is something I think about from time to time, but then I think I make an effort to put it out of my mind.  If one believes, as I do, that abortion is murder, then the current state of affairs is horrific.  I feel like the German citizens during WWII that tried not to look at the trains carrying people to the concentration camps.  It's not my problem, I try to convince myself.

Are there any circumstances under which you feel abortion is acceptable?

[Mountaineer]

I don't think you're shedding more light than heat here. Maybe you should follow your own suggestion.

Thank you.  I do  respect your opinion, but I was intending to only speak the truth (except for the Mengele part for which I apologize for bad-mouthing Mengele; he did not kill nearly so many people as Roe vs. Wade - a fact).

Mengele was a sadist who, among other things, injected dye into children's eyes to see what would happen. Abortion may be murder, but even if it is, it's got nothing to do with sadism. I can't accept your apology if you're going to keep making a connection between the two.

Let me try to explain further.

1. Connection between sadist and abortionist: both are evil in God's eyes where ALL sins are the same.  In man's eyes, all evil is not the same, for example stealing a loaf of bread is not the same as murder.  The consequences of sin from God's perspective is death - Jesus came to take on the sin of all from all time, if the gift is not rejected, and came to conquerer death - which He did on the cross.  The consequences of evil from man's perspective are variable, reasonably unpredictable even if the punishment is intended to fit the crime, and subject to the moral compass of the observer/judge.  So, the connection depends on whether one is able to see both God's realm and man's realm concurrently - apparently some can, some cannot.

2. Apology:  I offered the apology (a gift).  The gift is given.  Whether or not you choose to accept it is totally your choice.  I will say that in my experience, those who are unable to forgive become "eaten from within" and suffer far more than those who are able to forgive.  Been there, done that!  Now I try but not always successfully to forgive immediately; everyone, including myself is better for it.  I also now try to tolerate the views of others, even if I disagree with them to my core, unless their view is contrary to God's wishes for a Christian life - then I am compelled to speak the truth even though I am usually persecuted for it (e.g. a Biblical example of that is Jesus in the Temple with the moneychangers); my experience is that those who most loudly preach tolerance are usually the ones most intolerant of those who have a different set of values.

3. Mengele vs. the Abortionist: Desert posted a couple of links dealing with Mengele and Gosnell.  I hope we can all agree that both are horrifying examples of human behavior.  From a Christian perspective, they are both examples that Satan is indeed roaming the world causing many to succumb to his (Satan and man) most evil inner perverted desires.  I expect Satan is laughing the whole time we humans are willfully physically or mentally killing our own species (whether by abortion, war, or hurtful comments) and painting that murder with an "OK label".

... Mountaineer

[Gosso]

Are there any circumstances under which you feel abortion is acceptable?

No, I can't think of any.

The following is very dark, but it is how I feel about the topic:

In the case of rape it is not so black and white.  This is because the act of conception was a purely evil act.  If I was aware that I was conceived via rape then I would contemplate suicide, and would not fault my mother for ending my life early on.  If I could sacrifice my life so that she wouldn't have to relive that moment every time she looked at me, then I would do it (although put a knife in my hands and I might have second thoughts).  I doubt the emotional pain from rape ever truly disappears.  Also, could there ever be any love between the mother and child?  I doubt it.

A mother and father can get over their gross negligence and provide for the child, but I doubt a woman could overcome the rape.

[Mountaineer]

Abortion is something I think about from time to time, but then I think I make an effort to put it out of my mind.  If one believes, as I do, that abortion is murder, then the current state of affairs is horrific.  I feel like the German citizens during WWII that tried not to look at the trains carrying people to the concentration camps.  It's not my problem, I try to convince myself.

Are there any circumstances under which you feel abortion is acceptable?

I don't think so. 

My reasoning:  I believe God is in charge.  Thus, if God allows that sperm and egg to produce a human, who am I to say that the resulting person will not grow up to be the person who invents the way to the next medical innovation, the next energy saving mechanism, the next theologian of world renown, the next .......

At the same time, I feel really, really badly for the woman if she did not want the child.  However, the "Theology of the Cross" (vs. the Theology of Glory presented by many TV preachers) says that it is almost assured that we will suffer in this life because of our fallen, sinful condition - but we will suffer nowhere nearly as much as Christ who took on all our sins and conquored death to assure our salvation.

... Mountaineer

[dualstow]

...

Wow, Mountaineer, thank you for the wonderful gift. You compare legal abortion to the behavior of a war criminal and add insult to injury with an "apology" wrapped up in twisted logic. I suppose my expectations were too high. I gave my perspective without substantial debate, and yet I hoped this thread would be a good read. But, it is clear that you never had any intent to do anything but lay out your opinion and then beat it over our heads with hyperbole and poorly chosen metaphors.

I am grateful that I live under man's law and not god's law. I can choose birth control, such as condoms, rather than leaving it to the almighty to decide if I'm going to father the next Charlemagne. If something happens to a loved one, such as disease, I can bring them to a hospital rather than waiting for God's will to sort it out. And if someone needs an abortion in my country, I can rest assured that she can find a safe clean place to get one without shame, rather seek out a criminal in a dirty apartment with a wire hanger.  And, I can sleep soundly knowing that those people who murder abortion doctors will go to prison, because God will not whisk them to safety when authorities come knocking.

Enjoy your thread. I think I'll have to find enlightenment elsewhere.

[Mountaineer]

Enjoy your thread. I think I'll have to find enlightenment elsewhere.

Your quote reminded me of Descartes  "I think, therefore I am"  on the forefront of man becoming his own god.

Peace be with you, there is always hope.  Until we meet again .......

... Mountaineer

[kka]

In the case of rape it is not so black and white.  This is because the act of conception was a purely evil act.  If I was aware that I was conceived via rape then I would contemplate suicide, and would not fault my mother for ending my life early on.  If I could sacrifice my life so that she wouldn't have to relive that moment every time she looked at me, then I would do it (although put a knife in my hands and I might have second thoughts).  I doubt the emotional pain from rape ever truly disappears.  Also, could there ever be any love between the mother and child?  I doubt it.

A mother and father can get over their gross negligence and provide for the child, but I doubt a woman could overcome the rape.

There are quite a few people with first-hand experience who would disagree: http://www.rebeccakiessling.com/Othersc ... nrape.html

[AdamA]

You compare legal abortion to the behavior of a war criminal and add insult to injury with an "apology" wrapped up in twisted logic.

I don't agree with him either, Dualstow, but isn't this (the idea that abortion is never acceptable) the logical conclusion of the "abortion is murder" mentality?

I suspect there are a lot of people who share Mountaineer's opinion.

My reasoning:  I believe God is in charge.  Thus, if God allows that sperm and egg to produce a human, who am I to say that the resulting person will not grow up to be the person who invents the way to the next medical innovation, the next energy saving mechanism, the next theologian of world renown, the next .......

How about in cases where the mother's life is in danger for medical reasons (i.e., a heart condition that may kill her if she carries the pregnancy to term)?