Islamic State 'planning to use Libya as gateway to Europe'

Other discussions not related to the Permanent Portfolio

Moderator: Global Moderator

User avatar
Ad Orientem
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3483
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:47 pm
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Islamic State 'planning to use Libya as gateway to Europe'

Post by Ad Orientem » Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:56 pm

Islamic State militants are planning a takeover of Libya as a "gateway" to wage war across the whole of southern Europe, letters written by the group's supporters have revealed.

The jihadists hope to flood the north African state with militiamen from Syria and Iraq, who will then sail across the Mediterranean posing as migrants on people trafficking vessels, according to plans seen by Quilliam, the British anti-extremist group.

The fighters would then run amok in southern European cities and also try to attack maritime shipping.
Read the rest here...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... urope.html


Good morning Europe, this is your wake up call. May I suggest you skip the De-Caf and take you coffee straight this morning. I think you are going to need it.
Trumpism is not a philosophy or a movement. It's a cult.
User avatar
Ad Orientem
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3483
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:47 pm
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Re: Islamic State 'planning to use Libya as gateway to Europe'

Post by Ad Orientem » Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:01 pm

Reub arriving in 5-4-3-2-1...
Trumpism is not a philosophy or a movement. It's a cult.
User avatar
ochotona
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3354
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:54 am

Re: Islamic State 'planning to use Libya as gateway to Europe'

Post by ochotona » Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:06 pm

If they take over Greece and Rome, will the sovereign debt problem be solved???
User avatar
Pointedstick
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 8864
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Islamic State 'planning to use Libya as gateway to Europe'

Post by Pointedstick » Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:15 pm

Hmm, Libya… that name rings a bell… say, didn't we help a bunch of rebels oust the (somewhat) friendly dictator who used to rule the place with an iron fist?
Human behavior is economic behavior. The particulars may vary, but competition for limited resources remains a constant.
- CEO Nwabudike Morgan
fnord123
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 233
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:33 pm

Re: Islamic State 'planning to use Libya as gateway to Europe'

Post by fnord123 » Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:27 pm

Pinky and the Brain were planning to take over the world too.  Should we bomb Warner Brothers?  Anybody can make plans - executing on them is an entirely different matter.

The article says ISIL will send militants to bomb Europe.  As an American, why should I get involved?  Assuming they could even succeed in their plans, why is this not Europe's problem?  (Apologies to any Europeans on the board, but you are big boys, please take care of yourselves).
User avatar
MachineGhost
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 10054
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:31 am

Re: Islamic State 'planning to use Libya as gateway to Europe'

Post by MachineGhost » Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:36 pm

fnord123 wrote: The article says ISIL will send militants to bomb Europe.  As an American, why should I get involved?  Assuming they could even succeed in their plans, why is this not Europe's problem?  (Apologies to any Europeans on the board, but you are big boys, please take care of yourselves).
I'll hazard a guess in that its for the same reasons they needed our help in World War II.  I have no qualms about the Russians, though!
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
fnord123
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 233
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:33 pm

Re: Islamic State 'planning to use Libya as gateway to Europe'

Post by fnord123 » Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:41 pm

MachineGhost wrote:I'll hazard a guess in that its for the same reasons they needed our help in World War II.  I have no qualms about the Russians, though!
In World War II, Hitler had annexed Austria and Czechoslovakia, conquered Poland, and crushed Belgium and France before the US got actively engaged.  Europe (at least Britain) was screaming for our help.

In contrast to this, ISIS has not conquered a single square foot of European soil.  So why do they need our help?
User avatar
MachineGhost
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 10054
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:31 am

Re: Islamic State 'planning to use Libya as gateway to Europe'

Post by MachineGhost » Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:47 pm

fnord123 wrote: In contrast to this, ISIS has not conquered a single square foot of European soil.  So why do they need our help?
Because, unlike us, they're asleep at wheel about ISIS just as they were about the Nazi's?  Do you want to deal with ISIS while its a minor Caliphate or when its a friggin' Empire?
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
User avatar
Ad Orientem
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3483
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:47 pm
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Re: Islamic State 'planning to use Libya as gateway to Europe'

Post by Ad Orientem » Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:55 pm

fnord123 wrote:
MachineGhost wrote:I'll hazard a guess in that its for the same reasons they needed our help in World War II.  I have no qualms about the Russians, though!
In World War II, Hitler had annexed Austria and Czechoslovakia, conquered Poland, and crushed Belgium and France before the US got actively engaged.  Europe (at least Britain) was screaming for our help.

In contrast to this, ISIS has not conquered a single square foot of European soil.  So why do they need our help?
I think we are comparing apples and oranges here. ISIS is not going to conquer Europe. What they can do though is cause major havoc and kill/injury a lot of people. We should get involved because they are our neighbors and if their house burns down, ours is likely to be the next to catch fire.

I am about as far from a military interventionist as you can get, short of being an outright pacifist. But enough is enough. This kind of barbarous criminality needs to be dealt with. I say break out the napalm and let's see how the murderous little savages like it when THEY are the ones being set on fire.
Last edited by Ad Orientem on Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Trumpism is not a philosophy or a movement. It's a cult.
Reub
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3158
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:44 pm

Re: Islamic State 'planning to use Libya as gateway to Europe'

Post by Reub » Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:58 pm

Ad Orientem wrote: Reub arriving in 5-4-3-2-1...
AO, you'll have to get over your obsession with me. It's bordering on neurosis.
User avatar
Ad Orientem
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3483
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:47 pm
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Re: Islamic State 'planning to use Libya as gateway to Europe'

Post by Ad Orientem » Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:00 pm

Reub wrote:
Ad Orientem wrote: Reub arriving in 5-4-3-2-1...
AO, you'll have to get over your obsession with me. It's bordering on neurosis.
LOL
Trumpism is not a philosophy or a movement. It's a cult.
fnord123
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 233
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:33 pm

Re: Islamic State 'planning to use Libya as gateway to Europe'

Post by fnord123 » Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:02 pm

Ad Orientem wrote:I am about as far from a military interventionist as you can get, short of being an outright pacifist. But enough is enough. This kind of barbarous criminality needs to be dealt with. I say break out the napalm and let's see how the murderous little savages like it when THEY are the ones being set on fire.
So are you advocating bombing Saudi Arabia as well? Why not?
User avatar
Ad Orientem
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3483
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:47 pm
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Re: Islamic State 'planning to use Libya as gateway to Europe'

Post by Ad Orientem » Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:04 pm

fnord123 wrote:
Ad Orientem wrote:I am about as far from a military interventionist as you can get, short of being an outright pacifist. But enough is enough. This kind of barbarous criminality needs to be dealt with. I say break out the napalm and let's see how the murderous little savages like it when THEY are the ones being set on fire.
So are you advocating bombing Saudi Arabia as well? Why not?
I don't think the Saudis have anything to do with ISIS. In fact ISIS is probably an existential threat to the Saudis.
Trumpism is not a philosophy or a movement. It's a cult.
fnord123
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 233
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:33 pm

Re: Islamic State 'planning to use Libya as gateway to Europe'

Post by fnord123 » Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:08 pm

Ad Orientem wrote:I don't think the Saudis have anything to do with ISIS. In fact ISIS is probably an existential threat to the Saudis.
Both of them are savages who behead people based on the writings of Muhammad.
Both are sources of terrorists - although Saudi Arabian terrorists have a much more successful track record against Americans than ISIS terrorists.
Saudi Arabia has billions of dollars, first grade military equipment, and is a crazy combination of a theocracy and monarchy. ISIS has a lot less money, a lot lower quality equipment, and a lot less organization.

Seriously - what's the difference?  For folks eager to go off in foreign wars, why not go after Saudi Arabia?
User avatar
Pointedstick
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 8864
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Islamic State 'planning to use Libya as gateway to Europe'

Post by Pointedstick » Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:17 pm

Saudi Arabia is basically a giant Islam-themed corporation that sells oil. That means they need to act reasonably civilized in their dealings with foreigners who buy their product, however brutal they may be domestically. Without a key geopolitical resource to sell, I suspect they would be largely like ISIS. Truly, the civilizing effect of commerce in action.
Human behavior is economic behavior. The particulars may vary, but competition for limited resources remains a constant.
- CEO Nwabudike Morgan
User avatar
Ad Orientem
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3483
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:47 pm
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Re: Islamic State 'planning to use Libya as gateway to Europe'

Post by Ad Orientem » Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:23 pm

fnord123 wrote:
Ad Orientem wrote:I don't think the Saudis have anything to do with ISIS. In fact ISIS is probably an existential threat to the Saudis.
Both of them are savages who behead people based on the writings of Muhammad.
Both are sources of terrorists - although Saudi Arabian terrorists have a much more successful track record against Americans than ISIS terrorists.
Saudi Arabia has billions of dollars, first grade military equipment, and is a crazy combination of a theocracy and monarchy. ISIS has a lot less money, a lot lower quality equipment, and a lot less organization.

Seriously - what's the difference?  For folks eager to go off in foreign wars, why not go after Saudi Arabia?
If there were credible evidence that the Saudis were behind 9-11 (so far its mostly conspiracy theories) I'd absolutely say bomb them. But I haven't seen it. I don't agree with Islam and would prefer that those people stayed in their part of the world. But that's not a reason to bomb anyone. And as for the Saudis being a monarchy (oh the HORROR!), well lets just say you are new around here and don't know my politics. Maybe someone will fill you in.  8)
Trumpism is not a philosophy or a movement. It's a cult.
fnord123
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 233
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:33 pm

Re: Islamic State 'planning to use Libya as gateway to Europe'

Post by fnord123 » Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:29 pm

Ad Orientem wrote:If there were credible evidence that the Saudis were behind 9-11 (so far its mostly conspiracy theories) I'd absolutely say bomb them. But I haven't seen it.
True, but it was mostly Saudis that flew the planes in 9-11, and the mastermind (bin Laden) was Saudi as well.
And as for the Saudis being a monarchy (oh the HORROR!), well lets just say you are new around here and don't know my politics. Maybe someone will fill you in.  8)
Fair enough - monarchy itself may not be a problem. Elizabeth seems pretty nice for instance.  It is the wacko Imams the Saudi Monarchs pay off that scare me.

In any case, some folks are arguing we should attack ISIS because "it is the right thing to do".  If we are going to attack folks for doing bad things in their lands, then it seems the Saudis are a pretty prime candidate.

Here's an article that points out that many of the Taliban (who of course sheltered Al Qaeda, gave it bases to train in, etc.) were trained by Saudi-financed religious schools: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... assas.html

 
User avatar
dualstow
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 14235
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:18 am
Location: synagogue of Satan
Contact:

Re: Islamic State 'planning to use Libya as gateway to Europe'

Post by dualstow » Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:20 am

fnord123 wrote:
MachineGhost wrote:I'll hazard a guess in that its for the same reasons they needed our help in World War II.  I have no qualms about the Russians, though!
In World War II, Hitler had annexed Austria and Czechoslovakia, conquered Poland, and crushed Belgium and France before the US got actively engaged.  Europe (at least Britain) was screaming for our help.

In contrast to this, ISIS has not conquered a single square foot of European soil.  So why do they need our help?
Perhaps it was a mistake that we waited so long to help Europe. I remember watching a D-Day anniversary celebration in which, instead of thanking the Americans, a Frenchman said that "the (American) bombings were almost worse than the Germans, if not worse."

Why wait until ISIS actually reaches Europe? We don't want to drop bombs on Europe again.
RIP Daniel Kahneman | Happy Good Friday
User avatar
MachineGhost
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 10054
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:31 am

Re: Islamic State 'planning to use Libya as gateway to Europe'

Post by MachineGhost » Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:28 pm

Ad Orientem wrote: I am about as far from a military interventionist as you can get, short of being an outright pacifist. But enough is enough. This kind of barbarous criminality needs to be dealt with. I say break out the napalm and let's see how the murderous little savages like it when THEY are the ones being set on fire.
Another one joins the fold!  Welcome!  All you isolationists/libertarians/anarchists are on the losing march.

fnord: I think you're overlooking the fact that ISIS is capturing, torturing and crucifying or beheading Western citizens, including Americans, not just the local Arabs.  We're going to nuke them more for the former than the latter.

Seriously, people, CRUCIFIXATION with all the horror that entails!  Hello, did I wake up in the wrong century?
Last edited by MachineGhost on Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
User avatar
dualstow
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 14235
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:18 am
Location: synagogue of Satan
Contact:

Re: Islamic State 'planning to use Libya as gateway to Europe'

Post by dualstow » Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:42 pm

MachineGhost wrote: Seriously, people, CRUCIFIXATION with all the horror that entails!  Hello, did I wake up in the wrong century?
I don't know. I think there are worse things than having a fixation wth crosses.
;D
RIP Daniel Kahneman | Happy Good Friday
User avatar
Ad Orientem
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3483
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:47 pm
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Re: Islamic State 'planning to use Libya as gateway to Europe'

Post by Ad Orientem » Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:51 pm

dualstow wrote:
MachineGhost wrote: Seriously, people, CRUCIFIXATION with all the horror that entails!  Hello, did I wake up in the wrong century?
I don't know. I think there are worse things than having a fixation wth crosses.
;D
Image
Trumpism is not a philosophy or a movement. It's a cult.
User avatar
MachineGhost
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 10054
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:31 am

Re: Islamic State 'planning to use Libya as gateway to Europe'

Post by MachineGhost » Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:16 pm

Belly laugh!  lol!!!!
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
fnord123
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 233
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:33 pm

Re: Islamic State 'planning to use Libya as gateway to Europe'

Post by fnord123 » Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:38 pm

MachineGhost wrote:fnord: I think you're overlooking the fact that ISIS is capturing, torturing and crucifying or beheading Western citizens, including Americans, not just the local Arabs.  We're going to nuke them more for the former than the latter.

Seriously, people, CRUCIFIXATION with all the horror that entails!  Hello, did I wake up in the wrong century?
Nuking would be just as barbaric and death-cultish as ISIS' behavior. 

Aside to any pro-nuke folks who think they are followers of Jesus: Note that both the Catholic church (#1 Christian denomination in the US) and the Southern Baptist church (#2) have advocated proportional response.  Nuking is obviously not proportional.  You may want to talk to your priest/preacher/whatever and get some spiritual counseling before advocating such evil.
User avatar
Ad Orientem
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3483
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:47 pm
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Re: Islamic State 'planning to use Libya as gateway to Europe'

Post by Ad Orientem » Thu Feb 19, 2015 7:58 am

fnord123 wrote:
MachineGhost wrote:fnord: I think you're overlooking the fact that ISIS is capturing, torturing and crucifying or beheading Western citizens, including Americans, not just the local Arabs.  We're going to nuke them more for the former than the latter.

Seriously, people, CRUCIFIXATION with all the horror that entails!  Hello, did I wake up in the wrong century?
Nuking would be just as barbaric and death-cultish as ISIS' behavior. 

Aside to any pro-nuke folks who think they are followers of Jesus: Note that both the Catholic church (#1 Christian denomination in the US) and the Southern Baptist church (#2) have advocated proportional response.  Nuking is obviously not proportional.  You may want to talk to your priest/preacher/whatever and get some spiritual counseling before advocating such evil.
If my memory has not failed me, MG is not what most of us would call especially religious.
Trumpism is not a philosophy or a movement. It's a cult.
User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4959
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Islamic State 'planning to use Libya as gateway to Europe'

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:59 am

Ad Orientem wrote:
fnord123 wrote:
MachineGhost wrote:fnord: I think you're overlooking the fact that ISIS is capturing, torturing and crucifying or beheading Western citizens, including Americans, not just the local Arabs.  We're going to nuke them more for the former than the latter.

Seriously, people, CRUCIFIXATION with all the horror that entails!  Hello, did I wake up in the wrong century?
Nuking would be just as barbaric and death-cultish as ISIS' behavior. 

Aside to any pro-nuke folks who think they are followers of Jesus: Note that both the Catholic church (#1 Christian denomination in the US) and the Southern Baptist church (#2) have advocated proportional response.  Nuking is obviously not proportional.  You may want to talk to your priest/preacher/whatever and get some spiritual counseling before advocating such evil.
If my memory has not failed me, MG is not what most of us would call especially religious.
I suspect everyone has a religion, just as everyone has some sort of god.  Sometimes it is themselves and something internal, often something external such as God or false gods, and/or one of the 4200 mentioned below.  Maybe MG's religion is worship of "CRUCIFIXATION by nuke - use 'em or lose 'em".  ;D  Just kidding.

From my Macbook Dictionary App:  A religion is an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to an order of existence. Many religions have narratives, symbols, and sacred histories that aim to explain the meaning of life and/or to explain the origin of life or the Universe. From their beliefs about the cosmos and human nature, people may derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle. According to some estimates, there are roughly 4,200 religions in the world.

... Mountaineer
Simonjester wrote: The problem we have right now as i see it, is that we have not taken the time or had the wisdom to learn from history, or pay much attention to reality at all in our interactions in the middle east. Any quick look at the areas history or study of its religion, sects, people, tribes, would have told us that the middle east is a swamp.. So we ignored reality and built a foreign relations/economic relations railroad train and tracks into the swamp, where it has sunk into the muck and become surrounded by alligators and venomous snakes (and we seem surprised by this some how) so the question is what do we do? Using nukes or excessive force works but only up to a point, the train is still buried and the extra blood in the water only draws in more alligators and venomous snakes.... what we need is a policy that..
1 - kills enough reptiles to allow us to accomplish our goals but is not so much that we attract more or move the train further into the swamp.
2 - build a crane to lift the train out of the swamp, undo our stupid and blundering foreign policy and reduced the flailing around we are doing that has attracted so much awful wildlife to come in looking to feed.
3 - build a foreign policy/economic relationship air boat that can allow us to skim across the surface in the middle east without getting mired in the bottomless ooze or attracting wildlife, and allow us to drive the boat ashore and out of the swamp with ease at any time we feel the need to..

i don't see the above as being entirely non interventionist but it does involve choosing carefully the interventions we have and maintaining the ability to pull out at will. It is not in keeping with the neocon (kill all the critters and drain the swamp... if we want a train we can blow things up till we have one) policy's either. but we are where we are at and so we have to support some fighting if we ever hope to get into a better situation there, or to be safe from having the alligators and snakes following us home.
Last edited by Mountaineer on Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
Post Reply