Help me choose a secondary computer

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Kriegsspiel
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Re: Help me choose a second computer

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:27 pm

TennPaGa wrote: My wife would like to have a low-capability laptop on which she can do word processing and a little bit of internet surfing.  This would be a secondary machine in our household.

She doesn't really like tablet computers, she wants a real keyboard.

However, the sales dude at a Best Buy was trying to steer her toward a refurbished Toshiba Satellite ($429 for the refurb'ed version; originally $650+), because he thought the RAM (2 GB), and storage (32 GB) on the Stream were a bit low.

Any recommendations on things to consider?  Recommendations for machines?  Brand?  New?  Used?  Refurbished?
I got/and use a used netbook off Amazon. I think I paid $100 for it? I can type like a fucking warlock, and my USB mouse lets me point at shit and stuff.

It also had like EDIT: 150 GB of memory.
As most of us here do for most purchases, I'm looking for an appropriate balance between quality and price.  I must confess that I don't have a good feel for where that should be in a limited-capability machine, though.  Should we make sure that we get a machine that can handle system upgrades?  Or should we not care?

Finally, I would say that we're not really gadget people or computer people.
Admittedly, I still have a strip of duct tape over the camera thing on my USED COMPUTER, since I can't be sure there isn't some type of worm that would let a guilty party watch me through that digital eye.
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Re: Help me choose a second computer

Post by madbean » Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:30 pm

If she's only going to do word processing and surfing the HP Stream looks like a hell of a deal, especially since the one I'm looking at includes Microsoft Office 365.
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Re: Help me choose a second computer

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:06 am

TennPaGa wrote:
Kriegsspiel wrote:
I got/and use a used netbook off Amazon. I think I paid $100 for it? I can type like a fucking warlock, and my USB mouse lets me point at shit and stuff.
I've never seen a regular warlock working at a keyboard, so I'm not sure if I should be impressed or not.
Regular warlocks, like the kind in Russia that hacked our beloved corporate institutions, type at around 80 wpm.
Last edited by Kriegsspiel on Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Help me choose a second computer

Post by Mark Leavy » Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:42 am

TennPaGa wrote: My wife would like to have a low-capability laptop <snip>
She's been looking on line and was attracted to the HP Stream (the $279 version).
</snip>
If you were an expert, I would recommend that you buy your wife a mac Air and give it to her as a surprise.

If your wife were an expert, you would be only peripherally involved in the conversation.

Since neither you or your wife are experts, you should tell your wife to pick what she wants.

Then you should buy it unquestionably. i.e. the HP Stream.

Not all technology problems are technology problems.
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Re: Help me choose a second computer

Post by Mountaineer » Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:38 am

Mark Leavy wrote:
TennPaGa wrote: My wife would like to have a low-capability laptop <snip>
She's been looking on line and was attracted to the HP Stream (the $279 version).
</snip>
If you were an expert, I would recommend that you buy your wife a mac Air and give it to her as a surprise.

If your wife were an expert, you would be only peripherally involved in the conversation.

Since neither you or your wife are experts, you should tell your wife to pick what she wants.

Then you should buy it unquestionably. i.e. the HP Stream.

Not all technology problems are technology problems.
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Re: Help me choose a second computer

Post by bedraggled » Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:48 am

Greetings,

Mark Leavy nailed it.  I got my wife a macbook air 3 1/2 years ago.  She uses it all the time.  I do not get to use it often.  Apple may throw in a free printer.

Macbook air is definitely a winner.

Good luck.
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Re: Help me choose a secondary computer

Post by dualstow » Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:08 am

I was going to suggest looking for a used Macbook Air since Apple is now producing Macbooks that are thinner than the Airs. (So I think a lot of Air owners will be unloading theirs). Then you'd have quality and affordability, plus a great operating system.

That HP Stream looks nifty, though. The 13 model is $217 at Amazon right now. Date first available: mid-October 2014. That's pretty recent, but I would look through the reviews and see if someone has had one for several months.
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Re: Help me choose a secondary computer

Post by Pointedstick » Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:52 am

"Happy Wife Happy Life" definitely seems to apply but I have to agree that leaving a non-techy person to buy a tech product is a bad idea (irrespective of gender). They are liable to buy something that is either the prettiest, the cheapest, or the most expensive. Usually none are optimal.

For your wife's use case, the way I see it you basically have two feasible options:

1. Apple MacBook Air

2. Generic Linux ultraportable


The MacBook air is the long-term purchase that delivers the highest quality. Apple laptops are a joy to use and almost universally last longer than PC laptops. It's not uncommon for people to be using theirs six years later or more. By contrast, most PC laptops wear out far before this due to a combination of poor build quality leading to physical breakage, and bad software that slows down, gets worse over time, and is a chore to update, causing non-techy people to give up and just buy a new machine in a year or two (I have seen this a zillion times before). Apple's operating system is really top-notch and the software ecosystem is now very large. An Apple laptop will also feel dramatically faster than most cheap PC laptops you can buy due to its extremely fast SSD storage. Nearly all PC laptops in the low price range have slow hard drives that are a major bottleneck. A used or refurbished MacBook air made in the last 2 years or so will be an incredible value.

The generic Linux ultraportable is the ultimate value machine. You can get these for under $300 easily, and the software is a mile ahead of Windows 8 IMHO for common use cases. Modern Linux is sleek, fast, and easy to use. Anyone can learn to use it very quickly and easily. My sister-in-law bought one of these last year for about $250 to take abroad with her and has loved it. She had no prior Linux experience and is not at all a techy person. Such a laptop will not be especially fast or beautiful, but it will be small and cheap and should last reasonably long with moderate use.

Don't buy a bottom-of-the-barrel Windows 8 laptop, whatever you do. It will come loaded with crapware (to offset the price of the Windows license and keep it cheap) that you'll have to remove to make it remotely functional or pleasant to use. Some of this stuff is so bad that it can border on spyware. And windows 8 itself is just terrible for non-techy people. It's weird, confusing, ugly, common things are totally non-obvious, and it just plain doesn't work the way it was envisioned. Techy people can figure this stuff out; others will just be frustrated. When Microsoft finally relents on this idiocy and releases Windows 10 which is much more like 7 than 8, this might change. Until then, stay away!
Last edited by Pointedstick on Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Help me choose a secondary computer

Post by whatchamacallit » Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:53 pm

I would personally buy a bargain Windows 8.1 laptop with a credit card that gives you an extra 1 year warranty. You can uninstall their extra software easily.

The technology changes so fast that if it dies after 2 years so what. If it dies after 1 year, the credit card company might just refund you because it would cost them more to replace a motherboard than to just refund you. I actually made money this way before because a laptop had mail in rebates that didn't show on the purchase price.

If you have a Micro Center near by:

http://www.microcenter.com/product/4377 ... mond_Black

I agree that you need to have more than 2 GB of ram. I am running 2 GB of ram myself and it is doable but you can't multitask anything.

Edit:
I missed this one for only $190
http://www.microcenter.com/product/4381 ... er_-_Black

Edit 2:
If you are looking to purchase Microsoft Office and work for larger companies you can generally get it for $10 legally:
http://www.microsofthup.com/hupus/home.aspx
Last edited by whatchamacallit on Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Help me choose a secondary computer

Post by Pointedstick » Sun Mar 15, 2015 11:16 pm

whatchamacallit wrote: The technology changes so fast that if it dies after 2 years so what.
I disagree with this attitude. For someone who wants to use a computer for word processing, web browsing, and maybe email, technological change is irrelevant; a computer that is so shoddy that it dies after a year is just a frustrating waste of money. Furthermore, technological change in the PC industry is not so fast; what was the latest major innovation that benefited the small netbook-style computers we're discussing here? How long ago was it? How many netbooks have IPS screens, SSDs with reasonable storage capacity, speakers that you would actually want to play anything worth listening through, and get more than 4 hours of battery life? If you're starting to get the sense that these things are cheap because they use old technology, you're not on the wrong track...

If you go with a cheap laptop, for goodness sakes get one with Linux on it. A cheap computer with Windows 8 is not only crippled from the start due to the bloat, and slowness, of the OS itself and the preinstalled crapware, but it will only get slower with updates. The Linux community values compatibility and speed; it will be faster and stay faster. This is probably my pro-Linux bias speaking here, but I really just think that Windows 8 is a terrible confusing mess that is totally unsuited for non-techy people.

That said, the [img=http://smile.amazon.com/HP-Stream-Lapto ... uctDetails]http://HP stream[/img] I found on Amazon for $200 doesn't look half bad! The keyboard looks good, the battery life is impressive, and I like that it has an SSD instead of a hard drive. But keep in mind the following:

- It has Windows 8 on it which is a confusing and frustrating nightmare.
- It is pre-loaded with a bunch of crap that you have to remove in order to actually achieve its rated performance.
- The screen (the thing you're staring at all day) looks bad, with limited viewing angles that cause the colors to change or invert depending on how you tilt it.
- With only 2 GB of RAM (non-upgradeable, bare minimum for a big resource hog OS like Windows 8 ), it will be somewhat pokey forever.
- With only 32 GB of storage (non-upgradeable, likely half is already taken up by the OS and apps), once you're out of space, you're out of luck.

You'll notice that the top review is by a tech wizard type of person who admits that you have to do some work to get it into a usable state. Evaluate honestly if you can do all the things he did to get this laptop working properly, or if it's worth your time to do so vs buying something better for more money.
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Re: Help me choose a secondary computer

Post by MilfordTony » Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:00 am

11-inch MacBook Air lasts up to 9 hours between charges. So from her morning coffee till her evening commute, she can work unplugged.
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Re: Help me choose a secondary computer

Post by Mike59 » Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:49 am

Pointedstick wrote: If you go with a cheap laptop, for goodness sakes get one with Linux on it.
^ THIS!

I've been so frustrated by every windows machine I've ever owned, I inevitably end up installing Ubuntu. Thankfully you can now smoothly dual-boot Ubuntu 14 and Windows 8, I just hit a button upon startup and bam I'm into Ubuntu. Ubuntu 14 isn't perfect by any means but it's rare that I have to go back to Win8 for anything and I spend alot less time waiting for programs to start.

If one has money to burn stick with a macbook, I swear by imacs for my main machine and they are bulletproof. You wouldn't regret it (too bad I'm too cheap with my laptops, but the accumulating pile of Windows8 laptops in my closet destined for the dump should convince me enough to go apple next time even though it's about 3 x the price of what I usually pay!)
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Re: Help me choose a secondary computer

Post by dualstow » Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:54 am

Pointedstick wrote: 2. Generic Linux ultraportable
Speaking of Linux, I definitely wouldn't buy this for myself at this price, but it looks neat.
http://liliputing.com/2015/03/system76- ... l-cpu.html
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Re: Help me choose a secondary computer

Post by madbean » Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:06 am

Mike59 wrote: If you go with a cheap laptop, for goodness sakes get one with Linux on it.
A couple of years ago, the hard drive on my daughter's laptop went bad and I had to replace it. I tried using the Windows recovery disk on the new one but it told me it wasn't allowed since the drive didn't exactly match the old one (and this was AFTER spending about an hour on the recovery process until it was almost complete). Pissed off, I downloaded a copy of Ubuntu and installed it.

About a month later I reluctantly went back to Windows because I got tired of trying to get all the things working that my daughter was used to using, including her webcam, Itunes, etcetera. Linux might very well be a better operating system than Windows and I've used it a lot for enterprise computing, but as a replacement for Windows on the desktop, unless it has improved in the past few years it didn't seem ready for prime time to me.
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Re: Help me choose a secondary computer

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:02 am

madbean wrote:
Mike59 wrote: If you go with a cheap laptop, for goodness sakes get one with Linux on it.
A couple of years ago, the hard drive on my daughter's laptop went bad and I had to replace it. I tried using the Windows recovery disk on the new one but it told me it wasn't allowed since the drive didn't exactly match the old one (and this was AFTER spending about an hour on the recovery process until it was almost complete). Pissed off, I downloaded a copy of Ubuntu and installed it.

About a month later I reluctantly went back to Windows because I got tired of trying to get all the things working that my daughter was used to using, including her webcam, Itunes, etcetera. Linux might very well be a better operating system than Windows and I've used it a lot for enterprise computing, but as a replacement for Windows on the desktop, unless it has improved in the past few years it didn't seem ready for prime time to me.
In my experience the Mint distribution, which is based on Ubuntu, is easier to set up and use than most other distros I've tried - I currently have it on a thumb drive I use to boot my circa 2005/6 desktop PC every once in a while.  However, I still like OS X (currently using Yosemite version 10.10.2) better than other operating systems - it just "works".  I just play with Linux and Windows 7 occasionally.

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Re: Help me choose a secondary computer

Post by Pointedstick » Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:54 am

madbean wrote:
Mike59 wrote: If you go with a cheap laptop, for goodness sakes get one with Linux on it.
A couple of years ago, the hard drive on my daughter's laptop went bad and I had to replace it. I tried using the Windows recovery disk on the new one but it told me it wasn't allowed since the drive didn't exactly match the old one (and this was AFTER spending about an hour on the recovery process until it was almost complete). Pissed off, I downloaded a copy of Ubuntu and installed it.

About a month later I reluctantly went back to Windows because I got tired of trying to get all the things working that my daughter was used to using, including her webcam, Itunes, etcetera. Linux might very well be a better operating system than Windows and I've used it a lot for enterprise computing, but as a replacement for Windows on the desktop, unless it has improved in the past few years it didn't seem ready for prime time to me.
It has gotten vastly better recently, and this is also why I recommend a laptop with Linux already installed; everything is assured to automatically work right out of the box. Assuming managing an iOS device is not part of the plan for this secondary computer, the lack of a Linux iTunes should be irrelevant.
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Re: Help me choose a secondary computer

Post by WiseOne » Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:48 pm

Agree with PS.  Stay away from the cheap netbooks.  Everyone I know who bought one was completely delighted with it until it broke 6 months later.  And then there's Windows...did you hear about the Lenovo Thinkpads that came with malware PURPOSELY installed?

A refurbished Macbook (not an Air - because you can't upgrade it) would be a great deal, because it will outlast any PC in existence.  If you're willing to engage in a little sweat equity, see if somebody you know is planning to buy a new Macbook and has an old one to unload.  Upgrade the memory and hard drive as explained in this other thread:

http://gyroscopicinvesting.com/forum/ot ... #msg109165

p.s. there's instructions on how to change the battery in there too, which I think I probably need to do.  My laptop is down to 2 hours per charge.

You'll have a great machine that will last for years.
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Re: Help me choose a secondary computer

Post by MachineGhost » Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:21 pm

Pointedstick wrote: If you go with a cheap laptop, for goodness sakes get one with Linux on it. A cheap computer with Windows 8 is not only crippled from the start due to the bloat, and slowness, of the OS itself and the preinstalled crapware, but it will only get slower with updates. The Linux community values compatibility and speed; it will be faster and stay faster. This is probably my pro-Linux bias speaking here, but I really just think that Windows 8 is a terrible confusing mess that is totally unsuited for non-techy people.
You can't be serious to recommend Linux to non-techies.  When something goes wrong or doesn't work or fails, they're not gonna know what to look at or what to do.  It's way more complex than Windows ever will be.  And the app ecosystem is still a joke.

My vote goes for a refurbished Mac for non-techies.  If it just works, then it just works!
Last edited by MachineGhost on Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Help me choose a secondary computer

Post by whatchamacallit » Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:33 pm

If you are really serious about going Linux, the most user friendly release of Linux is a Chromebook. It is more user friendly than Windows if you are okay with the limitations.

I have never been able to get on the Apple band wagon because I feel like I am paying more for something that can do less. I hate having to support them and feel like software is made as an afterthought for them.

It is true that a Windows machine takes some work to remove the bloatware. I guess it is just the business model companies have chosen to cut costs on the hardware but I don't mind the Windows 8.1 product. Windows 8.1 actually runs better than Vista or Windows 7 did on my 2008 desktop.
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Re: Help me choose a secondary computer

Post by WiseOne » Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:38 pm

Removing bloatware is harder than you think.  It's now installed in firmware, so that even wiping the hard drive won't get rid of it.

I really hope Apple never goes down that path.
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Re: Help me choose a secondary computer

Post by Pointedstick » Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:05 pm

MachineGhost wrote:
Pointedstick wrote: If you go with a cheap laptop, for goodness sakes get one with Linux on it. A cheap computer with Windows 8 is not only crippled from the start due to the bloat, and slowness, of the OS itself and the preinstalled crapware, but it will only get slower with updates. The Linux community values compatibility and speed; it will be faster and stay faster. This is probably my pro-Linux bias speaking here, but I really just think that Windows 8 is a terrible confusing mess that is totally unsuited for non-techy people.
You can't be serious to recommend Linux to non-techies.
I am--with the caveat that it has to be pre-installed.

MachineGhost wrote: When something goes wrong or doesn't work or fails, they're not gonna know what to look at or what to do.
Which, for non-techies, differs from Windows how?

MachineGhost wrote: It's way more complex than Windows ever will be.
Wrong on the architectural level and wrong on the user-facing level. Try a recent Linux mint or Ubuntu sometime. You may be shocked by how well they work.

MachineGhost wrote: And the app ecosystem is still a joke.
True, but irrelevant for the use case in question--word processing, web browsing, maybe some email.

MachineGhost wrote: My vote goes for a refurbished Mac for non-techies.  If it just works, then it just works!
Hard to go wrong with this. But it's a lot more expensive. You get what you pay for but it's not one of the cheaper options.
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Re: Help me choose a secondary computer

Post by dualstow » Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:11 pm

I'm anxious to play w/ Linux again but when most friends or relatives ask me about it, I'm in the it's-not-ready-for-primetime camp. That's not to say that some novices won't do fine with it. But, it helps if someone has a cousin PointedStick in the family for when the printer suddenly stops working or something on the keyboard no longer does what it's supposed to do.

And mine was pre-installed. (Linux Mint on a ZaReason brand laptop).
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Re: Help me choose a secondary computer

Post by MachineGhost » Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:28 am

Pointedstick wrote: Wrong on the architectural level and wrong on the user-facing level. Try a recent Linux mint or Ubuntu sometime. You may be shocked by how well they work.
I was definitely referring to the user-facing level.  And I have tried all the latest Ubuntu and Mint derivatives, but am still not impressed.  I'm always left wondering...  is this all there is?  Isn't there anything more?  I'm bored, what's to do?  Essentially, they're just all trying to be Windows clones without the ease of use, bloat or app ecosystem -- keep in mind I don't use 8.1, so my frame of reference is more old school with 7/XP Pro x64 where things made more sense.  I can't recommend 8.1 either -- it's a Japanese beast mutated by nuclear radiation!
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Re: Help me choose a secondary computer

Post by Xan » Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:02 am

Pointedstick wrote:Hard to go wrong with this. But it's a lot more expensive. You get what you pay for but it's not one of the cheaper options.
Except that Apple has a terrible track record of abandoning not-very-old hardware.  Very quickly, your used Mac won't be able to upgrade to the latest OS, and very quickly after that you won't be getting security updates for the OS you can run.
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Re: Help me choose a secondary computer

Post by Pointedstick » Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:13 am

MachineGhost wrote:
Pointedstick wrote: Wrong on the architectural level and wrong on the user-facing level. Try a recent Linux mint or Ubuntu sometime. You may be shocked by how well they work.
I was definitely referring to the user-facing level.  And I have tried all the latest Ubuntu and Mint derivatives, but am still not impressed.  I'm always left wondering...  is this all there is?  Isn't there anything more?  I'm bored, what's to do?
This is the attitude of a gadget enthusiast, not a normal user. An operating system is not a toy or an entertainment machine; it's a system to facilitate your doing what you want to do. How well it facilitates that--in terms of its speed, reliability, user-friendliness, consistency of interface, compatibility with software, ease of upgrading, customizability, etc--is really all that matters. Linux certainly isn't perfect, and it falls down compared to Windows 8 in the software and ease of upgrading categories

MachineGhost wrote: Essentially, they're just all trying to be Windows clones without the ease of use, bloat or app ecosystem -- keep in mind I don't use 8.1, so my frame of reference is more old school with 7/XP Pro x64 where things made more sense.  I can't recommend 8.1 either -- it's a Japanese beast mutated by nuclear radiation!
And yet that's what you'll get if you buy a Windows laptop today. That's my point--Linux is the lesser of two evils if you buy a PC today. Windows 7 was just fine, pretty good even, and Windows 10 may follow in its footsteps. But 8 is a real stinker.

And of course, an Apple laptop is going to be better than either one--but it will probably cost more compared to sorts of bottom-of-the-barrel laptops we're discussing here.
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