Guess What's Destroying the Middle Class?

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Guess What's Destroying the Middle Class?

Post by Pointedstick » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:49 pm

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2 ... ages-china

Perhaps the biggest question in American political economy right now is why middle-class wages have been falling. There are three main hypotheses. Roughly, these are: Robots, unions and China.

[...]

Neither side really wants to blame China. The right generally represents business interests and capital owners who have made a lot of money off of China, and hope to make a lot more. The left is afraid to go against the free-trade orthodoxy that has dominated postwar American economic thinking, and also fears a potential cold war with China.

But there’s just one problem: The evidence may point to least favored answer being the right one.
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Re: Guess What's Destroying the Middle Class?

Post by Benko » Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:01 pm

Pointedstick wrote:
Since the writer of that article has also written an article called:

"Liberalism Makes America Exceptional"

is it possible he conveniently left out other possible causes?
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Re: Guess What's Destroying the Middle Class?

Post by I Shrugged » Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:20 pm

There are a couple of billion people out there, experiencing relatively more and more freedom, who want to stop eating dirt.  Ain't nothing gonna stop them from undercutting the old world.
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Re: Guess What's Destroying the Middle Class?

Post by dragoncar » Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:57 pm

OBAMA*


*this post brought to you in memorial for kshartle
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Re: Guess What's Destroying the Middle Class?

Post by Libertarian666 » Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:18 pm

The US government, including the Federal Reserve.
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Re: Guess What's Destroying the Middle Class?

Post by dualstow » Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:53 pm

dragoncar wrote: OBAMA*


*this post brought to you in memorial for kshartle
Not for Reub?
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Re: Guess What's Destroying the Middle Class?

Post by dragoncar » Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:13 pm

dualstow wrote:
dragoncar wrote: OBAMA*


*this post brought to you in memorial for kshartle
Not for Reub?
Probably.. Is reub still around?
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Re: Guess What's Destroying the Middle Class?

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:12 am

"Us".  In honor of Pogo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogo_(comic_strip)

Probably the most famous Pogo quotation is "We have met the enemy and he is us." Perhaps more than any other words written by Kelly, it perfectly sums up his attitude towards the foibles of mankind and the nature of the human condition.
The quote was a parody of a message sent in 1813 from U.S. Navy Commodore Oliver Hazard Perry to Army General William Henry Harrison after his victory in the Battle of Lake Erie, stating, "We have met the enemy, and they are ours." It first appeared in a lengthier form in "A Word to the Fore", the foreword of the book The Pogo Papers, first published in 1953. Since the strips reprinted in Papers included the first appearances of Mole and Simple J. Malarkey, beginning Kelly's attacks on McCarthyism, Kelly used the foreword to defend his actions:
“ Traces of nobility, gentleness and courage persist in all people, do what we will to stamp out the trend. So, too, do those characteristics which are ugly. It is just unfortunate that in the clumsy hands of a cartoonist all traits become ridiculous, leading to a certain amount of self-conscious expostulation and the desire to join battle. There is no need to sally forth, for it remains true that those things which make us human are, curiously enough, always close at hand. Resolve then, that on this very ground, with small flags waving and tinny blasts on tiny trumpets, we shall meet the enemy, and not only may he be ours, he may be us. Forward! ”?
—Walt Kelly, June 1953


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Re: Guess What's Destroying the Middle Class?

Post by madbean » Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:03 am

I know of at least one group that is still doing well and achieving the American dream - Asian immigrants.

I was at a banquet the other day where a Filipino immigrant gave a speech and he bragged about the fact that Filipinos had the second highest median family income of any immigrant group, behind only Indians. I think the figures were something like $82k for the Filipinos and $90k for Indians. This was in contrast to around $50k for natural born Americans.

Whether the natural born Americans would have the $82k and $90k jobs if the Asian weren't taking them or not, I have no clue but it makes you wonder.
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Re: Guess What's Destroying the Middle Class?

Post by dualstow » Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:14 am

dragoncar wrote: Probably.. Is reub still around?
Don't know. I thought he was only temporarily banned.


Edit: fixed dragoncar quote
Last edited by dualstow on Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Guess What's Destroying the Middle Class?

Post by WiseOne » Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:30 am

I wonder if the whole thing about the middle class being "destroyed" is overstated.  The middle class 30 years ago didn't save any more than they are today, and they didn't have iPhones, iPads, laptops, XBoxes, Wiis, DVRs, GPS navigators, enormous refrigerators, central air conditioning, 6000 sq ft houses, big W/D's that practically shine your shoes, 2 SUVs in 2 car garages, etc.  And things like going on vacation via air travel and putting in swimming pools were rarely done.  Even the "poor" have many of these things...I often see people in the Medicaid clinic who come in brandishing new iPhones and telling me they can't afford the $10 copay for the visit.

You can argue that the problem isn't that the middle class is "poor" but that there's too much stuff available to buy, and they can't buy it all.  Or, they buy it all anyway and then end up paying >20% interest on credit cards, which effectively reduces their income.  I love how my brother put it once:  "A credit card is like a hard drive.  If your hard drive fills up, you get a bigger hard drive."

It all comes down to financial management.  Most people are comically bad at this.  I don't know what the solution is...requiring personal finance courses in high school?  More personal finance blogs?  Giving everyone a copy of YNAB upon high school graduation?  Increasing income certainly won't solve anything.  There's always more stuff to buy.
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Re: Guess What's Destroying the Middle Class?

Post by dragoncar » Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:01 am

dualstow wrote:
dragoncar wrote: Not for Reub?
Don't know. I thought he was only temporarily banned.
What did he did?
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Re: Guess What's Destroying the Middle Class?

Post by FarmerD » Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:49 am

WiseOne wrote: It all comes down to financial management.  Most people are comically bad at this.  I don't know what the solution is...requiring personal finance courses in high school?  More personal finance blogs?  Giving everyone a copy of YNAB upon high school graduation?  Increasing income certainly won't solve anything.  There's always more stuff to buy.
The biggest problem is a total lack of personal restraint.  We live in an era of instantaneous gratification.  If you want something, put it on the charge card.  Never mind with the antiquated idea of saving up your money til you can buy with cash. 
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Re: Guess What's Destroying the Middle Class?

Post by Kbg » Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:36 am

I agree with WiseOne...just go into a house that was built in the 50s compared to the new house that is built now, the size alone points out the differences as to what middle-class men then and what it means now.
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Re: Guess What's Destroying the Middle Class?

Post by Pointedstick » Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:48 am

I agree. I live in an 1,100 sf house (3 person family) and people are always asking when we're going to move to a bigger place or build an addition. Really!? What's wrong with the place I already live? It's totally adequate for our needs. I don't get what people do with all the space. From what I can tell, most of the extra space in larger houses is wasted on huge entry foyers, lots of halls and passageways to get from place to place, unnecessarily enormous laundry rooms and closets, dining rooms that nobody uses, redundant living areas, and excessive numbers of bathrooms. No thanks.
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Re: Guess What's Destroying the Middle Class?

Post by clacy » Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:50 am

There are probably too many causes to list for the middle class decline.  I think a couple obvious culprits:

-Globalization.  The middle class was built by and large through manufacturing and capitalizing on the perfect storm which combined to allow us to receive a premium for the products that we manufactured relative to foreign counties.  Obviously other countries aren't interested in paying our auto workers 4-10x what the ones in their country make.

-Destruction of the family.  Liberals don't want to talk about it, but it's obvious to anyone that looks around.  A strong, traditional family is far more likely to keep each other working and striving for the betterment of the family.  A lose, frequently changing family structure is hard on everyone and creates an environment that is far easier to slide into poverty, crime, etc. 

-The US is a product of its own success.  Maybe we have it too easy now.  Do millennials want to do what it takes to achieve the American dream that many of our parents, great grandparents and prior generations had to do to work their way up the social ladder?  I'm not sure I would want to take the route that many of our ancestors did, which was not easy in the least.  Fortunately I haven't really had to because of the price that others paid before me. 

I think there are many other contributing factors but those are the three overarching causes, IMO.
Last edited by clacy on Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Guess What's Destroying the Middle Class?

Post by WiseOne » Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:53 am

Yup!  My vote for what's "destroying" the middle class:

1) Credit cards.

2) The car.

3) Large suburban tract housing.

4) Shopping malls.
Last edited by WiseOne on Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Guess What's Destroying the Middle Class?

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:18 pm

WiseOne wrote: Yup!  My vote for what's "destroying" the middle class:

1) Credit cards.

2) The car.

3) Large suburban tract housing.

4) Shopping malls.
Those are certainly one layer of "what".  But then we should look under that visible layer to what lies underneath, perhaps a "why" layer.  Things like greed, quest for happiness, degradation of the family, the need for instant gratification, and other things that have already been mentioned.  Then under those whys, yet another layer appears: "why" are we greedy, "why" do we lust for happiness, "why" is the family disintegrating, "why" are we not satisfied with what we have, "why" do we raise our children to get used to a silver spoon instead of bamboo chop sticks, "why" do we succumb to politician lies and "why" don't we do anything about it, etc.  And so forth until some root causes are exposed.  I expect we do not want to face the answer that is peering back at us from the mirror.  This is why several posts back, I said the answer to the thread title was "us".  We are increasingly becoming a nation of seekers  and suckers, freebie hunters, and want-to-be lottery winners.  Flip through the TV channels - see what most Americans are attracked to - mostly junk entertainment, sex (depraved and otherwise), someone hawking self-help books or flat ab pills, exhorbitantly overpaid athletes with bodies built by steroids, and violent crime shows.  Perhaps the Filipinos and Indians are only a generation or two away from where we pale faces were before falling off the cliff.  Anyone want to buy some snake oil?  Send me your credit card info and I'll get right back to you.  ;)

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Re: Guess What's Destroying the Middle Class?

Post by Tyler » Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:31 pm

Is the middle class really being destroyed everywhere?  In New York and San Francisco it's certainly an endangered species, but here in Texas it seems to be doing pretty well.  Maybe the middle class is just moving to more welcoming pastures, where lower wages are more than made up for by much lower cost of living.
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Re: Guess What's Destroying the Middle Class?

Post by moda0306 » Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:05 pm

clacy wrote: There are probably too many causes to list for the middle class decline.  I think a couple obvious culprits:

-Globalization.  The middle class was built by and large through manufacturing and capitalizing on the perfect storm which combined to allow us to receive a premium for the products that we manufactured relative to foreign counties.  Obviously other countries aren't interested in paying our auto workers 4-10x what the ones in their country make.

-Destruction of the family.  Liberals don't want to talk about it, but it's obvious to anyone that looks around.  A strong, traditional family is far more likely to keep each other working and striving for the betterment of the family.  A lose, frequently changing family structure is hard on everyone and creates an environment that is far easier to slide into poverty, crime, etc. 

-The US is a product of its own success.  Maybe we have it too easy now.  Do millennials want to do what it takes to achieve the American dream that many of our parents, great grandparents and prior generations had to do to work their way up the social ladder?  I'm not sure I would want to take the route that many of our ancestors did, which was not easy in the least.  Fortunately I haven't really had to because of the price that others paid before me. 

I think there are many other contributing factors but those are the three overarching causes, IMO.
To your last point, I really don't like getting into generationalism, since there's so much diversity within each one, and I tend to think there are far more telling groups that people fall into that are much more about culture than age group, but to the degree that there is some validity there, I don't see most millenials looking at their parents and seeing "success."  Boomers are something of an embarrassment (if we're going to go "there" (judging generations)).  I see flaws in millenials, overall.  But if we're going to decide what we want as a generation, I would never put boomers in the running.

The reason that may be hard to see for so many boomers, is simply because (IMO), boomers don't see computer work as "hard work," and they can't stand people playing on electronic devices for fun vs playing baseball or something.  I think there's a lot of legitimacy on the latter point (though I think people should be able to pick their hobbies without ridicule), but the former is just rationalizing their own out-of-touch relationship with technology, and resenting society's dependence on something they don't understand.

But listening to boomers complain about following generations is annoying as hell to me.  They're the ones who took savings habit to $hit in this country, loosened the family structure, simultaneously complain about their SS/Medicare being taken away AND millenials asking for too much free college and food stamps.

I really do hate getting into this generationalism crap, but if I'm going to be pulled in... as a millennial (and all that lovely tribalism rolling around my subconscious brain), I'm going to make sure that boomers at least leave with a black eye (figuratively, of course).  Boomers have no position upon which to judge millenials.  They've failed (as individuals and therefore, in a way, as parents), and millenials see that.  They don't want to "put their head down" and work hard for a company that's just going to can them when it's convenient.  They see that their parents are failing, but don't know how to NOT fail without taking some of the same convenient advice that seems to be self-serving... ("just work really, really hard and make your employer proud and it'll help you out.")  Really?  Basically, serve the giant ego-trip of those who've spent their lives sucking-up-to or manipulating others in their work environment to get ahead?

Here's a couple articles that sum up a lot of this:

http://www.salon.com/2014/10/20/baby_bo ... _annoying/

http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/20 ... were-worse


What's more, so much of the abundance of the "responsible class" comes as a natural result of the "over-spending" of the dip-shits.  You can't have your cake and eat it, too.  If you own a business that depends on consumption of un-needed goods, you can't b!tch and moan how "society is going to hell" because "nobody's as responsible as me."  Sure, you'd have lots of eager employees looking to serve you at low pay and save money, but no friggin' customers!

That's another reason I can't stand boomers in this debate.  Their entire support system relies on people that they're actively insulting, and relies on them doing the very think they're actively insulting them for.  The wealthy of them started businesses when tax rates were even higher than they are now, and somehow want to blame taxes, regulations, and lazy employees for their lack of position today.  This is completely natural, as anyone who over-leverages and under-plans is going to look for scapegoats for their failure.  It's no different for liberals.  It's just I generally don't have to listen to liberals insult my generation, when theirs had everything and took a big dump on it.



This wasn't all supposed to sound like an angry rant against you, clacy.  Just had to vent a bit! :)
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Re: Guess What's Destroying the Middle Class?

Post by MWKXJ » Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:46 pm

Guess What's Destroying the Middle Class?
...a lack of tariffs. 
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Re: Guess What's Destroying the Middle Class?

Post by hoost » Thu Apr 23, 2015 10:23 am

WiseOne wrote: I wonder if the whole thing about the middle class being "destroyed" is overstated.  The middle class 30 years ago didn't save any more than they are today, and they didn't have iPhones, iPads, laptops, XBoxes, Wiis, DVRs, GPS navigators, enormous refrigerators, central air conditioning, 6000 sq ft houses, big W/D's that practically shine your shoes, 2 SUVs in 2 car garages, etc.  And things like going on vacation via air travel and putting in swimming pools were rarely done.  Even the "poor" have many of these things...I often see people in the Medicaid clinic who come in brandishing new iPhones and telling me they can't afford the $10 copay for the visit.

You can argue that the problem isn't that the middle class is "poor" but that there's too much stuff available to buy, and they can't buy it all.  Or, they buy it all anyway and then end up paying >20% interest on credit cards, which effectively reduces their income.  I love how my brother put it once:  "A credit card is like a hard drive.  If your hard drive fills up, you get a bigger hard drive."

It all comes down to financial management.  Most people are comically bad at this.  I don't know what the solution is...requiring personal finance courses in high school?  More personal finance blogs?  Giving everyone a copy of YNAB upon high school graduation?  Increasing income certainly won't solve anything.  There's always more stuff to buy.
I think you're spot on here WiseOne.  I always thought we were poor growing up...then I realized my parents just didn't manage their money well and we were pretty normal.
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Re: Guess What's Destroying the Middle Class?

Post by moda0306 » Thu Apr 23, 2015 10:29 am

hoost wrote:
WiseOne wrote: I wonder if the whole thing about the middle class being "destroyed" is overstated.  The middle class 30 years ago didn't save any more than they are today, and they didn't have iPhones, iPads, laptops, XBoxes, Wiis, DVRs, GPS navigators, enormous refrigerators, central air conditioning, 6000 sq ft houses, big W/D's that practically shine your shoes, 2 SUVs in 2 car garages, etc.  And things like going on vacation via air travel and putting in swimming pools were rarely done.  Even the "poor" have many of these things...I often see people in the Medicaid clinic who come in brandishing new iPhones and telling me they can't afford the $10 copay for the visit.

You can argue that the problem isn't that the middle class is "poor" but that there's too much stuff available to buy, and they can't buy it all.  Or, they buy it all anyway and then end up paying >20% interest on credit cards, which effectively reduces their income.  I love how my brother put it once:  "A credit card is like a hard drive.  If your hard drive fills up, you get a bigger hard drive."

It all comes down to financial management.  Most people are comically bad at this.  I don't know what the solution is...requiring personal finance courses in high school?  More personal finance blogs?  Giving everyone a copy of YNAB upon high school graduation?  Increasing income certainly won't solve anything.  There's always more stuff to buy.
I think you're spot on here WiseOne.  I always thought we were poor growing up...then I realized my parents just didn't manage their money well and we were pretty normal.
Did people 30 years ago really save a lot less?  I'm quite sure they had quite a bit better savings rates.  But rethinking that, it was 1985.  Perhaps that trend had ended.
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Re: Guess What's Destroying the Middle Class?

Post by hoost » Thu Apr 23, 2015 10:36 am

moda0306 wrote:
hoost wrote:
WiseOne wrote: I wonder if the whole thing about the middle class being "destroyed" is overstated.  The middle class 30 years ago didn't save any more than they are today, and they didn't have iPhones, iPads, laptops, XBoxes, Wiis, DVRs, GPS navigators, enormous refrigerators, central air conditioning, 6000 sq ft houses, big W/D's that practically shine your shoes, 2 SUVs in 2 car garages, etc.  And things like going on vacation via air travel and putting in swimming pools were rarely done.  Even the "poor" have many of these things...I often see people in the Medicaid clinic who come in brandishing new iPhones and telling me they can't afford the $10 copay for the visit.

You can argue that the problem isn't that the middle class is "poor" but that there's too much stuff available to buy, and they can't buy it all.  Or, they buy it all anyway and then end up paying >20% interest on credit cards, which effectively reduces their income.  I love how my brother put it once:  "A credit card is like a hard drive.  If your hard drive fills up, you get a bigger hard drive."

It all comes down to financial management.  Most people are comically bad at this.  I don't know what the solution is...requiring personal finance courses in high school?  More personal finance blogs?  Giving everyone a copy of YNAB upon high school graduation?  Increasing income certainly won't solve anything.  There's always more stuff to buy.
I think you're spot on here WiseOne.  I always thought we were poor growing up...then I realized my parents just didn't manage their money well and we were pretty normal.
Did people 30 years ago really save a lot less?  I'm quite sure they had quite a bit better savings rates.  But rethinking that, it was 1985.  Perhaps that trend had ended.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but 30 years ago I wasn't alive and I'm not sure what "people" you're talking about, but I don't think you know my parents so I'm not sure how you can determine what their savings rate is and was.

Generalizations are not useful when talking about specific people and their known habits.

That being said, I just finished reading your long rant on baby boomers and think that for the most part I can agree with most of your thoughts, and that if people are going to blame generations, they need to take a long hard look at their own first.
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Re: Guess What's Destroying the Middle Class?

Post by moda0306 » Thu Apr 23, 2015 10:48 am

hoost,

Well WiseOne's post, while probably accurate on multiple levels, was filled with generalizations.  One of which was that people didn't save any more 30 years ago than they do today.  I am on a laziness mode with searching google... I guess I thought it was pretty well assumed that we save a lot less today than 30 years ago.

Based on this source...

https://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/data/PSAVERT.txt

It looks like savings rates in the mid-1980's are about 75% higher than they are today.  Not trying to be super picky or anything... just getting the facts straight around this topic.
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