Vaccines

[Pointedstick]

I don't get this notion of vaccination being a "duty" for which people can be fined or even imprisoned (IIRC). It affects the refuser himself, not anyone who has been vaccinated. If there were ever a victimless crime, this is it.

Who said anything about fines or imprisonment? I'm pretty sure all vaccines are voluntary.

Culturally, we also have a duty to reproduce, but there's no baby police locking up childless couples or bachelors.

[4x4]

Some times I wonder about the new adjuvants and related technology they are bringing into the mix that will show problems more distinctly further down the road.  Although I identify with one side of this argument, I do think there is a small area of uncertainty.  Also, just think about the flu vaccine, weak link to Guillain-Barre, but if you are of of the people.... might have preferred a simple flu episode.

PS Not sure if your asking this as well but my two cents would be to not become involved seriously with those that don't share similar / fundamental view points in life.

[BearBones]

PS Not sure if your asking this as well but my two cents would be to not become involved seriously with those that don't share similar / fundamental view points in life.

No I did not ask that!

But actually I agree.  Tricky when 75-90% beliefs shared, some uncommon, and 10-25% don't.

Thank you all for participating.

[BearBones]

Being vaccinated is a duty: you accept a small amount of personal risk in exchange for strengthening your whole society.

While I agree, I can see the other side, since it is a restriction on personal liberty. Same sentiment as resenting taxation. Or restrictions on buying weapons of mass destruction, etc.

In order to live in a society we tacitly agree to certain things that are in the best interest for all (hopefully, but certainly not always), even if it restrict personal freedoms. One can always move to a different country if you feel oppressed, I suppose, so you actually have a choice. I choose to live in the US. But that could change if Trump is elected  Ha! That will get this going! Watch this now. This will have hundreds of posts, and my question on commission free trades of treasuries will stop with 6, half of which are mine.

[Pointedstick]

Ideally all of this stuff works if we like our society. When that's the case, taking a small personal hit in order to protect or improve the society seems like a good bargain. When people don't like their society, or feel oppressed by it, or feel like aliens in it or feel like it doesn't return them as much as they're giving up, or whatever, that's when you start needing big government to bludgeon people into doing things with threats of violence for non-compliance. This is kind of the thing that Craig refers to when he talks about how diverse societies require big government. It seems true.

[dualstow]

It affects the refuser himself, not anyone who has been vaccinated. If there were ever a victimless crime, this is it.

This is a common fallacy. When large numbers of people refuse vaccinations, outbreaks occur (most recently: measles), spawning new mutations which can eventually affect the vaccinated. It's not a crime, but a victimless decision it is not.

related: http://shotofprevention.com/2011/04/12/ ... accinated/

[BearBones]

I don't get this notion of vaccination being a "duty" for which people can be fined or even imprisoned (IIRC). It affects the refuser himself, not anyone who has been vaccinated. If there were ever a victimless crime, this is it.

Agree with dualstow. But also some diseases such as pertussis can still infect and kill a child before the immunity is conferred from vaccination. Just doesn't happen very often because it is rare in our population. Because of... vaccines.

[Fred]

Machine Ghost said to avoid vaccines and that's good enough for me!

Me too. I also quit taking statins, started following the permanent supplement regime, the permanent tooth care regime, and the permanent hydration regime.

[Mountaineer]

Machine Ghost said to avoid vaccines and that's good enough for me!

Me too. I also quit taking statins, started following the permanent supplement regime, the permanent tooth care regime, and the permanent hydration regime.

Don't forget to make sure your images fit, if you choose to post a picture. 

... M

[Libertarian666]

Ideally all of this stuff works if we like our society. When that's the case, taking a small personal hit in order to protect or improve the society seems like a good bargain. When people don't like their society, or feel oppressed by it, or feel like aliens in it or feel like it doesn't return them as much as they're giving up, or whatever, that's when you start needing big government to bludgeon people into doing things with threats of violence for non-compliance. This is kind of the thing that Craig refers to when he talks about how diverse societies require big government. It seems true.

So what you are saying is that a dictator has no choice but to enforce his dictates by violence.

This is true... so long as you have a dictator.

In other words, we don't need big government to do anything because we don't need it at all. Anything that can only be done by big government, such as throwing peaceful people in prison for possessing a plant, should not be done.

[Reub]

So it's a duty to risk my health and my life for the supposed betterment of society?  Where does it say that?

[MediumTex]

So it's a duty to risk my health and my life for the supposed betterment of society?  Where does it say that?

Has your doctor asked you to be vaccinated against any kind of diseases lately?

Mine hasn't.

It seems like this is a 100% hypothetical and academic discussion for most of us.

[Mountaineer]

So it's a duty to risk my health and my life for the supposed betterment of society?  Where does it say that?

Has your doctor asked you to be vaccinated against any kind of diseases lately?

Mine hasn't.

It seems like this is a 100% hypothetical and academic discussion for most of us.

Shingles.  Pneumonia.  Flu.

... Mountaineer

[dualstow]

There is often an interesting take on things here at this forum.
I don't get shots out of a sense of duty. I do it because I don't want to catch these diseases and I believe this is an easy and effective way to reduce my chances of doing so.

I don't expect to catch them or am I not trembling with fear, but by the same token if my friend has a cold I won't rush to shake hands with him and then rub my eyes.

When I visited Taiwan annually, I didn't get travel shots, but when going to unfamiliar territory (e.g. Honduras), I went to a travel clinic and got the works.

All opinions are my own / not intending to dispense medical advice / etc etc

[jafs]

I think the issue of duty or responsibility comes into play more with children.

Whether or not an adult chooses to get vaccinated seems to me more of an individual choice, which may affect others, but doesn't necessarily involve those aspects.

But, if you have children, you have a responsibility to care for them well, and make choices that are good for them.  And, if you bring them around other children, then your responsibility extends in some way to those other children as well.

Of course, if you're unvaccinated adult, then you shouldn't go to public parks where there are young children around who may not be vaccinated.

Like many issues, this one shows how issues of individual freedom and social responsibility are complex.

[MachineGhost]

But seriously. MG is a great guy. I just don't understand why his recommendation has more weight than pretty much every physician out there.

Because I'm not an unwitting tool for Big Pharma?  It's not as if literally every physician kowtows to the propaganda conga line, but they're not going to be public about it due to career risk.  That's simply not a factor for me.

If you think a rash is what is considered an adverse event to vaccines, you're woefully ignorant.  You're trivializing the permanent damage (if not death) that unproven and untested vaccines are doing to innocent children.  The latest is the HPV vaccine is now causing premature ovary failure.  Fucking wonderful.

Seriously, it should be old hat by now that just about every damn industry suppresses damaging information and conspires with government to do so or vice versa.  Profit or public policy -- there's ambition behind either motive.  Why is it so hard not to be in denial?  Is it just too scary on any number of levels to think that Big Government is lying to you?  Well, it's reality.  Deal with it or it will deal with you.

[MachineGhost]

So vaccines are settled science too?

I think you can only make that claim about the first or second generation vaccines based on actual evidence.  The latest stuff (the creepy transgenic DNA from other species) is simply insufficiently tested (if at all) -- both in bomb dosing protocols, toxic excipients and efficacy itself.  Keep in mind the way the FDA works is they rely on the fox guarding the henhouse to provide the "safety data" for any approval.

[MachineGhost]

Being vaccinated is a duty: you accept a small amount of personal risk in exchange for strengthening your whole society. And even on an individual level, if you are even remotely capable of weighing risk vs reward, getting vaccinated is a no-brainer. You're going to need your personal immunity if eradicable diseases break out due to the anti-vax movement.

So your kids outright dying, becoming permanently disabled, brain damaged or unable to conceive is accepting a "small personal amount of risk" from unproven and untested vaccines?  From a public policy standpoint the benefit is not for your own kids, but for other kids.  That's what "herd immunity" implies.  The so-called authorities don't care if your kids happen to be a casuality on the way to that ideological ideal.  Why should they?  They have no skin in the game.

The funny thing is all the outbreaks so far have been largely happening in those that were already vaccinated.  So the vaccines don't work in the vaccinated against the non-vaccinated?!!  Fuck wow.  Brilliant.  I'm sure that got an excuse for that one.  Mutation it looks like?  Whatever it takes to cover up the incompetence.  Do I need to remind anyone that theres no longer a competitive free market in vaccines and there certainly isn't a litigation feedback loop anymore either?

You have to be very, very careful about making assumptions on the vaccination topic with the public policy brainwashing we've all received for decades.  What we reflexively knee-jerk in assuming to be true (scientifically proven, efficacious, safe, herd immunity, non-vaccinated infecting vaccinated, etc.) can be like the emperor wearing no clothes.

[MachineGhost]

Who said anything about fines or imprisonment? I'm pretty sure all vaccines are voluntary.

Its becoming mandatory in many states although citizen protests seem to have slowed it down.  I believe it is now mandatory in CA.  That is the strict definition of tyranny and authoritarianism no different than living in the former USSR.

Don't be such fucking patsy just because its all seductively wrapped up in the color of "science" and everyone and their mother believes it is inviolate.  I see the same hallmarks of intolerance to dissent and denial of facts in pro-vaccination ideology that were present in the food pyramid, global warming, trans-fat, saturated fat/cholesterol, etc..  You do realize the people involved in making these public policy decisions for the rest of us are the transnational elite, right???

[MachineGhost]

It seems like this is a 100% hypothetical and academic discussion for most of us.

Every year I get a schedule chart showing the list of vaccinations I should have depending on my age.  Every year I also get a call from a nurse wanting me to fill out their comprehensive questionnaire about my health and needs.  And many followup calls.  And every year I ignore it all.  Do you honestly think Boobus Americanus is as intelligent, highly aware and as flippantly militant about crony corruption as myself?

You guys reaaally aren't aware of how much you're all trivializing the risks from latter day vaccines just to maintain cognitive coherence.   But hey, I should be used to it by now, right?

[MachineGhost]

There is often an interesting take on things here at this forum.
I don't get shots out of a sense of duty. I do it because I don't want to catch these diseases and I believe this is an easy and effective way to reduce my chances of doing so.

Yes, I know.  You ignore the evidence showing they're ineffective because of your ineffective (old) immune system and also ignore the evidence showing the risks don't outweigh the paucity, if any, benefit.

In other words, you're engaging in security theatre based on false pretenses and feel good about it.  But the flu vaccine is a bit of a different beast than what is being given to vulnerable children.  It just doesn't have dramatic life changing side effects other than giving you shingles or neurodamage.

The relentless tit sucking at vaccination around here makes me sick.  It is the very last vestige of trust in Omniscient Big Government leftover from the naive 1950's.  It just cannot implode soon enough.

[WildAboutHarry]

[quote=MachineGhost]The relentless tit sucking at vaccination around here makes me sick.  [/quote]

I'm sure there is a vaccine for that! 

Seriously, for me it is a simple equation.  Are the risk and consequences of an adverse reaction to a vaccine greater than the same for the disease?  If so, avoid the vaccine.  If not, get the shot.

Most of the "big ones" - smallpox, polio, diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus, etc. -- dispatched diseases with potentially horrible outcomes.  I predate the measles vaccine, but I did have measles and developed a potentially life-threatening measles-related condition.  So I'd go for the measles vaccine on that basis as well.

In the very old days, sick individuals with certain diseases were quarantined in their homes.  Kind of totalitarian, no?  And quarantine still an option today.

[quote=CDC]The list of quarantinable diseases is contained in an Executive Order of the President and includes cholera, diphtheria, infectious tuberculosis, plague, smallpox, yellow fever, viral hemorrhagic fevers (such as Marburg, Ebola, and Congo-Crimean), and severe acute respiratory syndromes.[/quote]

[BearBones]

Don't be such fucking patsy just because its all seductively wrapped up in the color of "science" and everyone and their mother believes it is inviolate.  I see the same hallmarks of intolerance to dissent and denial of facts in pro-vaccination ideology that were present in the food pyramid, global warming, trans-fat, saturated fat/cholesterol, etc..  You do realize the people involved in making these public policy decisions for the rest of us are the transnational elite, right???

The relentless tit sucking at vaccination around here makes me sick.  It is the very last vestige of trust in Omniscient Big Government leftover from the naive 1950's.

I posted this for a reason. Because I am open to both sides, and I am curious as to whether others have factual data to support one position or another. Conspiracy theories and vulgar, inflammatory language ("I am right and the majority of you are complete idiots") kind of stuff does not do your position any justice.

Can you provide some factual data to support your position, please?

[dualstow]

ADDED A MIDDLE PARAGRAPH

MG, my doctor is not a patsy of Big Pharma or a lover of big government. If the scientific community and/or my physician comes around to your viewpoint, that'd be the time for me to rethink things.

There are a lot of charlatans who sell herbal supplements by making a bad guy out of the (admittedly problematic) pharmaceutical industry. I'm not comparing them to you, but I am saying that you both claim, "This industry is evil and full of lies, so what I have to tell you is true."

But, if I have to choose between my own doc & a general scientific consensus vs Opinionated Guy on the Internet (that's you), I'm going with my doctor.

[MachineGhost]

Seriously, for me it is a simple equation.  Are the risk and consequences of an adverse reaction to a vaccine greater than the same for the disease?  If so, avoid the vaccine.  If not, get the shot.

Don't we only have vaccines for diseases with horrobile outcomes?  The flu shot doesn't really count since thats more marketing fiction for profit than substance.

How do you decide that the risk of premature ovary failure (among many other negative, scary effects) in your pre-teen daughter is acceptable compared to the chance of getting a virus from sexual activity that might cause cervical cancer?  How can you even accurately judge the risk and probabilities when there is no transparency and insufficient data except for the most blatantly obvious?  Adverse events to vaccines are VOLUNTARILY REPORTED -- how well do you think that works as a monitoring system?  Are physicians considered to be the "transnational elite"???