Permanent cookware

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Mark Leavy
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Re: Permanent cookware

Post by Mark Leavy » Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:27 pm

There is a really wonderful thing about inert materials.

It seems that beauty combines with function and non intrusiveness.

My travel kit is almost all glass and Titanium.  It just works.
I had a ceramic tin cup for a while (which I loved), but eventually swapped it out for a Titanium double walled cup.

Life is about living.  If you can find something that is beautiful and meets your needs, then it is hard to improve on that.  I've always thought that inert is good.  Plastic is damn ugly and sublimates into your life.

Ceramic on cast iron with a wood handle is an art form.
Borosilicate glass is pretty damn impressive.
Air dried jerky on an oak stick is to die for.
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Re: Permanent cookware

Post by Mark Leavy » Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:54 pm

Since I know PS is all about the science :)  Let me bring it back around.

I've found that thermal conductivity and inertness are the two main properties.

If you are going to make a Moscow Mule - you want a copper cup.  The thermal conductivity allows the alcohol and ice to create a situation where the dew point freezes on the exterior.  That is pretty cool. 

But of course, copper is reactive.  Not a good cup for your tomato sauce.

Also not good for a cup of coffee.  I've never seen coffee get cold so quickly as in a copper cup

What about a copper clad bottom on a stainless steel pan?  That was all the rage when I was a child.  Good thermal conductivity with a (supposedly inert interior).

Titanium has both good thermal conductivity and is highly inert.  Great for hip joints, but no so good for a coffee cup.

A double walled coffee cup is my ideal today.

When I had a house I absolutely loved my Le Creuset.  Ceramic inert surface.  Cast Iron Thermal Conductivity Interior.  Absolutely beautiful aesthetics.

Oh... and yes they were expensive.  Maybe fragile?  I don't know.  My super chef gal brought her set into the house (20 years old) and they were immaculate.  We joked over who would get the pans if we ever split...
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Re: Permanent cookware

Post by Mark Leavy » Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:21 am

Clearly the answer is to introduce the Permanent Portfolio line of cookware.

Titanium Frying Pans.
22K gold cocktail mugs
Borosilicate water glasses and coffee mugs
Oak Serving Trenches

No better conductivity or inertness.

Sign me up for equal amounts of each.
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Re: Permanent cookware

Post by l82start » Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:54 am

Gumby wrote:
l82start wrote:i tested at a bit over halfway between top and bottom in the "old" normal range, as far as i can tell i have no issues, i don't tend toward sensitivity, and i have always taken the hormesis approach to life over the OCD, live in a bubble everything is bad approach...
Btw, you've implied you're around 170. I know you don't enjoy the OCD bubble approach, but you should know that there is a fair amount of research linking "normal" subclinical hemochromatosis to diabetes. Major health organizations have yet to rule that this subclinical hemochromatosis is a "cause" of diabetes but the evidence is piling up each year. It's pretty shocking if you look into it.

If you believe in hormesis, then bloodletting is a good exercise. Anyhow, if you do take the time to research ferritin you'll find that recent evidence points to the low end of normal being safest.

For instance...
Little-Known Secrets About Optimal Iron Levels

The healthy range of serum ferritin lies between 20 and 80 ng/ml. Below 20, you are iron deficient, and above 80, you have an iron surplus. Ferritin levels can go really high. I’ve seen levels over 1,000, but anything over 80 is likely going to be a problem. The ideal range is 40-60 ng/ml
I know Mercola doesn't get everything right, but in this case he is actually summarizing what a lot of recent research is suggesting.

For instance...
Iron and Diabetes Revisited

The pathological effects of iron accumulation in tissue in iron-overload states are well known. What is new in the field is the recognition that iron plays an important role in the pathophysiology of disease in the absence of systemic iron overload...Thus, even at “normal” levels, iron exerts a detrimental effect on Beta-cell function that may be reversible with removal of iron, either through phlebotomy or possibly iron chelation.
It really doesn't take much effort to find studies associating "subclinical hemochromatosis" to diabetes. Nor does it take much effort to find intake of iron linked with diabetes. Nor does it take much effort to find evidence that bloodletting/phlebotomy reduces or reverses these problems.

So, I guess you could say the "symptoms" of subclinical hemochromatosis are mainly diabetes, but actually there is research linking iron to most diseases of civilization if you look.

I know you don't want to live in an OCD bubble, but I think most OCD types would say this one is worth paying attention to more than most. Anthony Colpo has some good advice on how to get your iron down to low normal.

In my experience, coming down from 160 wasn't possible from bloodletting only once every 50-something days. I think I went down only 10 points when I was ready to donate again (you go down maybe 20-40 initially but then you start accumulating iron again). I took 800mg/day of IP6 for ~3 months of IP-6 to get down to 80. As Colpo points out though, everyone is different, so you need to test. Your doctor probably won't keep testing you if he thinks you're "normal" so if this is something you want to take seriously, it requires getting your own tests online (they're pretty cheap). Colpo explains the routine. Good luck.
while i am strongly in favor avoiding OCD sensitivity (argh my levels are .002 nanograms to high and i feel like crap  :o) i am not adverse to research and experimentation i will look into the IRON FEAR a bit deeper on my next health kick, and maybe experiment with getting my levels down, if nothing else donating blood is a nice thing to do...
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Re: Permanent cookware

Post by Mark Leavy » Sat Feb 27, 2016 1:07 am

It must be late :)

Okay... let's explore 4 dimensions.

1) Inert/Reactive
2) Thermal Mass
3) Thermal Conductivity
5) Physically Robust

Let me posit that any surface materiel used for cooking or serving should be inert.  If you want the flavor of the vessel to affect the product - we'll call that an ingredient.

High thermal mass seems positive in any situation.  What am I missing?

High thermal conductivity is good for cooking but it is bad for serving or storage.

Physically Robust seems like a good thing.

So... what do we have?

It seems like everything should be made from either 22K Gold or Borosilicate or Solid Oak.  Depending on the usage.  Material combinations or vacuum layers and coated thermal masses may influence your choice.

And there is no damn reason that everything shouldn't be beautiful.
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Re: Permanent cookware

Post by Libertarian666 » Sat Feb 27, 2016 4:58 am

Mark Leavy wrote: It must be late :)

Okay... let's explore 4 dimensions.

1) Inert/Reactive
2) Thermal Mass
3) Thermal Conductivity
5) Physically Robust

Let me posit that any surface materiel used for cooking or serving should be inert.  If you want the flavor of the vessel to affect the product - we'll call that an ingredient.

High thermal mass seems positive in any situation.  What am I missing?

High thermal conductivity is good for cooking but it is bad for serving or storage.

Physically Robust seems like a good thing.

So... what do we have?

It seems like everything should be made from either 22K Gold or Borosilicate or Solid Oak.  Depending on the usage.  Material combinations or vacuum layers and coated thermal masses may influence your choice.

And there is no damn reason that everything shouldn't be beautiful.
I'm still waiting for someone to come up with a way to coat arbitrary surfaces with a vapor-deposited diamond coating, which would have these awesome characteristics:
1. Inert other than if you heat it up too much in the presence of oxygen, then it burns to carbon dioxide.
2. Very high thermal conductivity but an electrical insulator.
3. Very cheap ingredient: carbon.
4. And of course it is hard as diamond.  :P
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Re: Permanent cookware

Post by Pointedstick » Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:13 am

Borosilicate glass is cool stuff, for sure, but they don't make pots and pans out of it. And it doesn't work on an induction range.

What think we really need is titanium cookware. 18/0 stainless base (for induction compatibility and reducing the cost), thick aluminum core (for thermal conductivity and a certain amount of thermal mass), and titanium cooking surface (for inertness and durability). Such a vessel would be nigh-indestructible, last forever, be perfectly safe to cook with, and work on any kind of heating device. Better than a ceramic cooking surface because there's no fragile veneer or layer to get broken; just a solid layer of titanium through-and-through. Sadly titanium cookware doesn't seem to be made outside of small camping sets.

I have to admit that I'm really, really tempted to get an antique Copco skillet.
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Re: Permanent cookware

Post by Gumby » Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:15 am

Many ancient cultures used copper for their water vessels because copper has antimicrobial properties. It was said to have purified their water after a few hours—something that various metals can do. Silver vessels had similar antimicrobial properties.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimicro ... _of_copper

Copper toxicity is relatively rare—we can excrete excess copper. The main problem with iron is that there is no major mechanism to excrete it beyond bleeding or intense sweating. Bloodletting was extremely common until only the last century. Up until the 19th century, you could have a bloodletting performed by your barber anytime you felt like it—and people demanded it regularly.
Last edited by Gumby on Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Permanent cookware

Post by jafs » Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:40 am

I recently learned that that's the origin of the red and white striped barbershop poles - they used to hang bloody rags from their poles.

Kind of gross.
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Re: Permanent cookware

Post by Gumby » Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:45 am

jafs wrote: I recently learned that that's the origin of the red and white striped barbershop poles - they used to hang bloody rags from their poles.
I think that's probably somewhat of an exaggeration. Wikipedia highlights that legend with a "dubious" warning:
Wikipedia wrote:Wikipedia: Barber's Pole

The origin of the red and white barber pole is associated with the service of bloodletting and was historically a representation of bloody bandages wrapped around a pole.[dubious – discuss] During medieval times, barbers performed surgery on customers, as well as tooth extractions. The original pole had a brass wash basin at the top (representing the vessel in which leeches were kept) and bottom (representing the basin that received the blood). The pole itself represents the staff that the patient gripped during the procedure to encourage blood flow."
I think the interesting idea here is that bloodletting was a common practice in every single major culture—ever since societies were formed and possibly earlier than that. The practice only fell out of favor roughly 150 years ago. Since then chronic diseases have only worsened considerably (for various reasons, obviously).
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Re: Permanent cookware

Post by Gumby » Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:49 am

I did find out that the Copco Denmark pots/pans are highly coveted. They cooked amazingly well, though the instructions say you can only use low heat.

However, my vintage Copco pans—which were purchased in the 70s and have never been used—gave off faint fumes that made me a bit lightheaded the first two times I used it. Hopefully that only happens in the first few uses—I assume it was some manufacturer's coating. I can't imagine enamel off-gassing forever.  :-\
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Re: Permanent cookware

Post by goodasgold » Sun Feb 28, 2016 1:39 pm

Gumby wrote: I think the interesting idea here is that bloodletting was a common practice in every single major culture—ever since societies were formed and possibly earlier than that. The practice only fell out of favor roughly 150 years ago....
Actually, periodic bloodletting is still a standard treatment today after a diagnosis of hemochromatosis.

In past ages, perhaps surgery was considered too gory and dangerous for physicians to perform, given very high fatality rates due to shock and sepsis. Instead of doing surgery themselves, doctors with dread and sadness dispatched their patients to barbers for surgery, knowing there was a high chance their patients would not survive an operation.
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Re: Permanent cookware

Post by Gumby » Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:00 pm

goodasgold wrote:
Gumby wrote: I think the interesting idea here is that bloodletting was a common practice in every single major culture—ever since societies were formed and possibly earlier than that. The practice only fell out of favor roughly 150 years ago....
Actually, periodic bloodletting is still a standard treatment today after a diagnosis of hemochromatosis.

In past ages, perhaps surgery was considered too gory and dangerous for physicians to perform, given very high fatality rates due to shock and sepsis. Instead of doing surgery themselves, doctors with dread and sadness dispatched their patients to barbers for surgery, knowing there was a high chance their patients would not survive an operation.
Actually, often a quick bloodletting was said to be performed on patients before the surgery began. That's how they knocked them out! Can you imagine?
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Re: Permanent cookware

Post by Pointedstick » Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:20 pm

Dammit gumby, now you have me bidding on Copco cookware on eBay.
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Re: Permanent cookware

Post by Gumby » Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:05 am

Pointedstick wrote: Dammit gumby, now you have me bidding on Copco cookware on eBay.
Sorry. :) It seems that there are maybe a dozen or so different quality manufacturers that cropped up during that post-mid-century era that all have good products. Some of the brands are mentioned in this post:

http://www.castironcollector.com/enameled.php

Only a few companies make em like that now, but lots of other great vintage brands to choose from.
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Re: Permanent cookware

Post by Gumby » Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:47 pm

TennPaGa wrote: The other thread convinced me...

Any recommendations on a grain mill?  Ideally, it would be human-powered (not electric), but still be capable of producing 4 cups of flour in a reasonable amount of time.
I haven't done the research yet, so I cannot vouch for anything. But, I was going to eventually take a closer look at the corona mill, with a "stone conversion kit" option:

http://nazko.com/corona_stone_kit.html

I think we need to read up on it though before making any purchases. Oddly it talks about getting "fine flour" from this kit, but I'm wondering if that's just "fine" in comparison to very coarse grains. The link suggests that basic hand mills require multiple passes to get fine flour. I don't think it's possible to get as fine as a roller mill (which supposedly shears the grain in a totally different way) so I'm imagining "fine" in this case is preserving some structure/grist.
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Re: Permanent cookware

Post by Gumby » Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:54 pm

And looks like the "nugget" mill (another product in the same site) offers stones with settings adjustments (coarse to fine).

http://nazko.com/nugget.html

Again, no idea if these are any good or not. Sounds interesting though. But a lot more expensive than the corona.
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Re: Permanent cookware

Post by Gumby » Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:56 pm

Another link from my bookmarks (again, haven't had time to investigate)

http://www.grainmillcomparison.com/

I imagine this makes for a good emergency food source. Always keep a big container of wheat berries on hand and you have a cheap and fresh long term food source assuming you have access to a wood-fired oven of some kind. :)

Supposedly wheat berries can keep for ~20 years with the right storage container (and oxygen absorbers)! Though, at that point you might as well just grow more, lol.
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Re: Permanent cookware

Post by Gumby » Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:08 pm

This is harder than I thought. That mill comparison blog didn't like the corona mill (says it's really for corn). sounds like if you get the wrong handmills they really are a lot of work (multiple passes to get decent flour for bread).
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Re: Permanent cookware

Post by Maddy » Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:23 pm

Gumby wrote: Another link from my bookmarks (again, haven't had time to investigate)
http://www.grainmillcomparison.com/
I'm surprised the reviewers didn't include the Country Living Grain Mill.  At the time I researched them (admittedly a number of years ago), it was the gold standard among the homesteader types.
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Re: Permanent cookware

Post by MachineGhost » Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:01 pm

dragoncar wrote: From my osmotic dental knowledge, I'd guess you had micro cavities.  These do not need to be drilled because they can be repaired via remineralization.  But remineralization relies on flouride.  So maybe your first dentist knew you avoided flouride and thus drilled.  Or maybe he's one of the unethical ones (I've heard these cases too).
Correct, its called: http://gyroscopicinvesting.com/forum/ot ... re-regime/

I'm surprised PS would have such an irrational fear of flouride given the science.  BTW, I need to update that with some minor enhancements.

Flouride in water is not the same as flouride in toothpaste.  There's very little benefit of the former and a lot of health problems which is why its on the way out worldwide.
Last edited by MachineGhost on Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Permanent cookware

Post by MachineGhost » Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:03 pm

Gumby wrote: In my experience, coming down from 160 wasn't possible from bloodletting only once every 50-something days. I think I went down only 10 points when I was ready to donate again (you go down maybe 20-40 initially but then you start accumulating iron again). I took 800mg/day of IP6 for ~3 months of IP-6 to get down to 80. As Colpo points out though, everyone is different, so you need to test. Your doctor probably won't keep testing you if he thinks you're "normal" so if this is something you want to take seriously, it requires getting your own tests online (they're pretty cheap). Colpo explains the routine. Good luck.
Eeek!  I guess a whole teaspoon of IP6 was way too much...
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