Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by Pointedstick » Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:57 am

vnatale wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:16 am
My house orientation is exactly opposite optimal. Rather than having the more desirable north / south roofs, I have east / west roofs. The west is slightly more tilted toward the south than the east but I'm going with the east because it has almost no shading while the west has some.

Therefore a 6.5 kW system ends up providing me only about 6,000 kWh. Does all the above make sense to you?
Seems sane, yeah.
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by Pointedstick » Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:59 am

Jack Jones wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:03 am
I already have a metal roof, but it required Tesla to send a contractor out here to tell me they don't install onto my type of roof. That kind of discouraged me from the whole thing. Is that just some lame Tesla policy and I should find a better solar contractor?

I actually did have another solar contractor out, more local. But she did the assessment and I never heard from her. She was doing the talking down about my choices thing you were talking about earlier, so maybe she just didn't want me as a customer.
I have a solar PV array on my metal roof. There is no problem. These people are telling you in contractor-speak that they lack the skills and experience to install a solar PV array on a metal roof (the attachment method is different than with shingles, and that's likely all they have experience with). If you want solar, find a different solar contractor who doesn't remark on it at all.
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by vnatale » Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:27 am

Pointedstick wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:57 am

vnatale wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:16 am

My house orientation is exactly opposite optimal. Rather than having the more desirable north / south roofs, I have east / west roofs. The west is slightly more tilted toward the south than the east but I'm going with the east because it has almost no shading while the west has some.

Therefore a 6.5 kW system ends up providing me only about 6,000 kWh. Does all the above make sense to you?


Seems sane, yeah.


I have kept extensive records of my electricity usage going back to 1998.

This is how many kWh per day I have averaged per month with the total for the year on the far right.

Capture.JPG
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You can see that for the 1999 to 2008 time period my annual usage was between 7,300 and 9,600. 2009 represented a significant drop to 6,000 which stayed even lower than that through 2019. I do not have any notes for any significant changes in my electrical usage behavior but I do know that at some point I finally heeded the advice to have all your phantom usage devices plugged into a power strip that you then shut off when you were not using those devices. I did set that up in my living room where my TV and numerous audio devices were connected. I was shocked at much my electricity usages dropped and how much those phantom devices had been using. I also used to keep two computers and all their monitors running 24 hours a day. Also at some point I shut them down every night and other times when I am going to be away from my house for a significant amount of hours. Immediately saw a reduction in subsequent bills. Then around May 2020 my average daily usage was persistently higher than the prior year. My only guess for that was the my 30 year old refrigerator had become more inefficient. But now that I write that I'm thinking that the bigger factor could have been the fan in my heat pump hot water heater going so that from that point onwards the hot water heater was at its maximum inefficiency, operating strictly on resistance heating. Then starting in May 2021 I saw a persistent decrease from the prior year. I attributed that to finally replacing my 30 year old refrigerator with a new one. Of course telling me that that was something I should have done years ago. Finally from my last bill (July 2021) you can see the drastic increase over the prior year due to my having turned on that electricity monster dehumidifier. My last bill estimated that I'm due for a reading today so I will soon be able to see the bill reflecting that reading and how much electricity that dehumidifier has continued to consume.

This is the Variable cost per kWh I've paid each month:

Capture1.JPG
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You can see that initially it refutes the common solar vendor's claim of "You know that electric rates are just going to keep increasing every year."

In January 1998 I was paying 9.8 cents per kWh. For the rest of that year and the next two years rates actually DECREASED. They went up one year but then decreased again so that in 2004, a FULL SEVEN years later, I was still paying the same 9.8 cents.

Looking at the averages for all the rest of the years, it is true that the general trend is upwards but there have been some years with decreases. This year has represented a HUGE increase.

Now in terms of me evaluating solar proposals in my own way I want to come up with my own Electricity Inflation Rate based upon my direct experience rather than what each solar vendor assumes in each of their proposals (which incidentally do not all have the same assumption. This round I think I have seen them range from 2.0% to 3.9%).

The following (showing only the last five years) is my examination of electricity rate inflation.

The columns are: Date / Rate / Index (with January 1998 being 100) / monthly compounded rate of inflation / annualized compounded rate of inflation

Capture2.JPG
Capture2.JPG (100.2 KiB) Viewed 2909 times


Main observations here are that the annualized compounded increase started at 3.4% five years ago in August 2017. It hit a peak of 4.1% in April 2018 but came down as low as 3.2% as of December 2020. However the 2022 increases have caused it to skyrocket to 4.3% as of July 2022. And, that 4.3% is what I shall be using to evaluate all the solar proposals that I receive.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by I Shrugged » Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:06 pm

How big is your lot? Can you put an array in your yard, facing generally south? Then, would it be permitted? Have a detached garage? Would you like one?

I don’t see how you’re going to make this pencil out anyway. You’re frugal with electricity and you don’t assign any intangible value to the green or self reliance aspects.
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by vnatale » Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:51 pm

I Shrugged wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:06 pm

How big is your lot? Can you put an array in your yard, facing generally south? Then, would it be permitted? Have a detached garage? Would you like one?

I don’t see how you’re going to make this pencil out anyway. You’re frugal with electricity and you don’t assign any intangible value to the green or self reliance aspects.


My lot is about 0.4 acres. I'd need to get a zoning variance to get a ground mount, which are more expensive than roof mounts. I have an attached garage. Presently the array would start on the garage (northeast roof side) and move down toward the southeast roof side of the house as needed (to avoid any potential shading from a tree in the southeast corner of my property).

I'm seeing working out quite well on a financial investment basis - particularly when it'd be replacing a small part of my short-term Treasury Bills investments and their extremely low returns.

With the issue of the tax credit carry forward seemingly no longer being a concern, now getting a 30% credit rather than a 26% or 22% credit, and raising the Electricity Inflation rate from 3.0% to 4.3% ..... all the foregoing tilts it toward being an investment worth making.

You are correct I do not assign any intangible value to the green (to clarify - not a motivation to do it but do appreciate what it will do). However, I assign a lot to the self-reliance aspect as I'm an owner whenever possible. I buy / own whenever I can so as to avoid any periodic, e.g., monthly, payments. I'd greatly look forward to being free from what future electric rates are going to be. And, though, it may not be completely logical I'd be freer with my electricity use if it was coming from my own solar as compared to having to pay the electric company for every kWh consumed.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by vnatale » Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:57 pm

Desert wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:33 pm

Vinny, sorry if you've already covered this, but do you have heirs? I'm wondering if your estate value is meaningful to you, to pass along to heirs or charities after you depart.

And nice job no the kWh tracking! Wow. That's some high-level nerd stats there, and I mean that as a compliment.


I have no natural heirs. And, from having been extensively involved in non-profits which led me to acquire a viewpoint that a lot of them waste a lot of money ....I presently do not have natural places for my estate to go. I have some ideas but it's going to take a lot of work to figure it out. Presently that work is not appealing to me. It's more difficult in my case than the traditional where it all first goes primarily to the other spouse and then secondarily to the children. A lot more thought is required in my case. At this time I am not willing to put in the necessary time, energy, thought to get that accomplished.

Thanks for the above. I did take it as a compliment.

I formed a "house committee" of over 15 friends to advise me on all these house improvements this year because I tell all that my forte is NOT dealing with the real, physical world. My forte is sitting in front of a computer monitor and relentlessly manipulating information. Plus, I've always said that if it has two rows and two columns then it is automatically an Excel spreadsheet!
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by vnatale » Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:27 pm

As I continue this solar installation, I have the following which, hopefully, one (some) of you can offer input.

Paramount is deciding what size system you want. To do that you have to have a good idea of how much electricity in kWh you will be consuming in a year.

In January 2021 had an Emporia system installed in my service box so that I can monitor electric usage for every one of my house circuits. I can see right now what each of them are consuming. Or, I can go back and see how much each has consumed per second, per minute, per 15 minutes, per hour, per day.

Today I went through all the information provided by the system to project how much electricity each circuit would use for the coming year on a monthly basis so as to come up with a total for the year for my entire house.

Last year / this year I embarked upon my HUGE book project which resulted in many, many, many books in the basement. I told myself that that meant I needed to dehumidify my basement during the high humidity months of May to September.

I did start in May but have not been fully diligent with it. If the bucket fills up it stops and is not dehumidifying until I empty that bucket. Today was a case in point of emptying it after forgetting to have done it for the last two days so that it ran not at all Tuesday and Wednesday. If I was checking it and emptying it twice every day it would be running 24 hours a day.

As it is with the way I am doing it it looks like that dehumidifier is consuming 5 to 10 kWh PER day! Or about 150 to 300 per month or 750 to 1,500 from May to September. That represents a significant increase to my all other house use of about 5,400 kWh annually.

That could be the difference between buying a 5.4 Solar Installation or a 6.0 or a 7.0. Big difference in costs for the overall system.

So it is key for me to decide how much I am going to consume in a year.

In December 2012 I had a hot water heat pump installed. It cost $1,000 but with a $1,000 rebate it only cost me the $70 sales tax. It did cost $400 to install. However, a few years ago the fan stopped working which means it is working on the most expensive option - strictly resistance.

A new hot water heat pump goes for about $1,400 with I think a $600 rebate. So about $900 with tax and another $400 for installation (hoping some of the existing piping for my current setup can be used).

Hot water heat pumps do provide a certain amount of dehumidification. Question would it provide enough dehumidification so that I'd not have to at all run a dehumidifier? If so that would cut my needs below 5,400 per year because not only would I not be using electricity for a dehumidifier a new heat pump hot water heater would be more efficient than the current one that I am using (which is no longer functioning as a heat pump).

I use extremely small amounts of hot water. Sometimes the only hot water I use all day is for brushing my teeth twice a day.

Another question is whether the dehumidification happens with the heat pump water heater only when new water is coming in to replace the hot water consumed? Or, hopefully, also when it is constantly keeping the water in the tank hot enough while it just sits in that tank in my basement?

Finally, my variable cost per kWh has now reached an all-time high of 29.4 cents. Since 1998 when it was 9.8 cents it has increased at an annualized compounded rate of 4.6%.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by Xan » Thu Aug 18, 2022 4:12 pm

vnatale wrote:
Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:27 pm
Paramount is deciding what size system you want. To do that you have to have a good idea of how much electricity in kWh you will be consuming in a year.
Why is that? Assuming you can sell excess electricity back to the grid, either solar power pays for itself (in which case you want as much as your roof can fit) or it does not (in which case you want none). Neither case depends on what your power usage is.

Why would you stop at the point when your bill is zero? Why not go negative?
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by Pointedstick » Thu Aug 18, 2022 6:03 pm

I think you're over-analyzing. :) What you end up with is never going to perfectly match your calculations and predictions. At a certain point you just have to take the plunge, if it's something you actually want to do.

My take?
- Get a 6 kW system for a bit of wiggle room (always build in wiggle room).
- Don't store anything sensitive to moisture in your basement in the first place. It's a losing battle. You're single, you have a house, and you're a quirky guy with no spouse to complain about what you do in the house; move the books into somewhere else in your house and then your humidity issues reduce significantly.
- Have an HVAC guy (not a plumber) fix the fan on your heat pump water heater. Much cheaper than buying a new one. That combined with the above may take care of the basement humidity automatically.
- Regardless, rig your dehumidifier so that its tank drains somewhere. For example, you can mount it over a sink or drain in your basement, and run a hose down from the bottom of its drainage tank.
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by vnatale » Mon Aug 22, 2022 9:45 pm

Xan wrote:
Thu Aug 18, 2022 4:12 pm

vnatale wrote:
Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:27 pm
Paramount is deciding what size system you want. To do that you have to have a good idea of how much electricity in kWh you will be consuming in a year.


Why is that? Assuming you can sell excess electricity back to the grid, either solar power pays for itself (in which case you want as much as your roof can fit) or it does not (in which case you want none). Neither case depends on what your power usage is.

Why would you stop at the point when your bill is zero? Why not go negative?


Friday I had a two hour meeting with a solar installer. I brought this up to him. He works for a national company so he works with a lot of utility companies and was not as familiar with how my utility handles net metering as would a company whose business is more Massachusetts based.

While on the phone with him I located this:

https://www.eversource.com/content/ema- ... t-metering

Key sections are:

EARN MONTHLY BILL CREDITS
The energy you generate from your solar panels is used to power your home throughout the day. On sunny days, your system may produce more electricity than you need. When this happens, this excess energy is sent back to the Eversource electric grid.

At the end of each billing month, the total electricity you sent back (sold) to the grid will be subtracted from the total amount of energy you used (purchased) from the grid. This determines your "net" amount.

Net metering is one way you can be compensated for this extra energy your system produces. The formula is simple:

Energy you produce - Energy you consume = net energy

NET METERING RATE
If your system is 10kW or less, the rate at which you earn net metering credits will be slightly lower than the full retail rate you pay for power from Eversource. This is because charges for energy efficiency, renewable energy and distributed solar are excluded from the net metering rate.

YOUR MONTHLY ELECTRIC BILL
Earned net metering credits can be used to reduce the amount owed on your monthly electric bill.

Your monthly bill will look different than it did before you installed a solar energy system. In months where you produced more energy than you used, your Eversource bill should show a negative balance because net metering credits were applied to that bill and possibly roll over to future bills.

If you use more electricity than you generate, Eversource supplies the power you need at the standard rate. If this occurs over the course of a month, net metering credits will not appear on your bill.

VIRTUAL NET METERING
Earned credits roll over each month. If you find yourself accumulating too many credits, you can share them with other Eversource customers in Massachusetts. This is known as virtual net metering.

You are limited by your home's location to where you can transfer credits. In western Massachusetts, you can share net metering credits only with other customers in western Massachusetts.


Let's assume I buy a system that produces 6,000 kWh per year and every year I use 5,500, thereby creating a surplus of 500 each year.

My utility company will not issue me a check for that 500 surplus. If I never get to use them all when I am having deficit months then that surplus will just continue to grow. The only way I can get any value for them is to assign them to you (if you are also an Eversource customer). I can either gift them to you or charge you for them. But that obviously requires a lot more time to fill out the proper form to get this done plus negotiating with you a price if I do want to get paid for them.

Seems fairly clear to me from the above that I do not want to pay for an oversized system that will end up producing kWh that cannot be used by me and only have some form of value to me if I put some work into it.

Therefore it does seem important to narrow down what my annual electricity consumption will be.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by vnatale » Mon Aug 22, 2022 9:59 pm

Pointedstick wrote:
Thu Aug 18, 2022 6:03 pm

I think you're over-analyzing. :) What you end up with is never going to perfectly match your calculations and predictions. At a certain point you just have to take the plunge, if it's something you actually want to do.

My take?
- Get a 6 kW system for a bit of wiggle room (always build in wiggle room).
- Don't store anything sensitive to moisture in your basement in the first place. It's a losing battle. You're single, you have a house, and you're a quirky guy with no spouse to complain about what you do in the house; move the books into somewhere else in your house and then your humidity issues reduce significantly.
- Have an HVAC guy (not a plumber) fix the fan on your heat pump water heater. Much cheaper than buying a new one. That combined with the above may take care of the basement humidity automatically.
- Regardless, rig your dehumidifier so that its tank drains somewhere. For example, you can mount it over a sink or drain in your basement, and run a hose down from the bottom of its drainage tank.


OF COURSE I am over-analyzing. If I did not I would not be me and people would start getting worried about me!

Yesterday I gave a friend of tour of my house. I have a 900 square foot house with basement the same size and 500 square foot garage. So I have 2,300 square feet for one person.

There is NO room in the house for the books aside from being in the basement because there are about 6,000 total books in the house and each room is occupied as follows --

This bedroom -- every wall is shelved with guess what on them? Books!

Living room? East wall has shelves full of books. Some other shelving in the room for some books but almost all the shelving in the room is for the 5,000 or so CDs I own.

The north bathroom wall has shelving so 500+ books can be in it. The other bedroom has every wall shelved with books and other things on them.
Moving to the room between the living room and kitchen we see all walls shelved so as to hold the 8,000 records that are in it.

We make it to the kitchen and the entire south wall is shelves to hold part of the history and politics books.

Hope that I've made the case that there is NO room in the house proper for the probably 3,000 or so books that are in the basement. Those books occupy just a tiny, tiny, tiny portion of the basement as it is filled with tons and tons of other things. Much of it paper based items. Once the books got there I realized I finally had to deal with the basement humidity. At least it is only a May to September issue.

In the above I left out the detail on the current mal-functioning heat pump. In January 2021 the HVAC guy was here to look at my heating system. On his way out he looked at my heat pump hot water heater and said "you got the inferior version that was sold through Home Depot rather than the superior version we'd get at plumbing supply places". He said that GE had had a lot of problems with the version I bought. I told him about the code saying the fan was out.

He said that the fan was still under warranty but not the labor. The fan was hard to get at and it was going to require 5 hours of labor at $150 an hour to replace it. Not wise to spend $750 on a then 8 year old heat pump hot water heater.

I have no sinks or drains in my basement so your suggestions will not work. I finally starting reading the manual for the new dehumidifier today. The best hope is that I can somehow drain it into my washing machine (which is where I currently dump all the water from the bucket that is in the older dehumidifier I am using as I write this).
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by Xan » Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:12 pm

vnatale wrote:
Mon Aug 22, 2022 9:45 pm
Xan wrote:
Thu Aug 18, 2022 4:12 pm
vnatale wrote:
Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:27 pm
Paramount is deciding what size system you want. To do that you have to have a good idea of how much electricity in kWh you will be consuming in a year.
Why is that? Assuming you can sell excess electricity back to the grid, either solar power pays for itself (in which case you want as much as your roof can fit) or it does not (in which case you want none). Neither case depends on what your power usage is.

Why would you stop at the point when your bill is zero? Why not go negative?
Friday I had a two hour meeting with a solar installer. I brought this up to him. He works for a national company so he works with a lot of utility companies and was not as familiar with how my utility handles net metering as would a company whose business is more Massachusetts based.

While on the phone with him I located this:

https://www.eversource.com/content/ema- ... t-metering

Key sections are:

EARN MONTHLY BILL CREDITS
The energy you generate from your solar panels is used to power your home throughout the day. On sunny days, your system may produce more electricity than you need. When this happens, this excess energy is sent back to the Eversource electric grid.

At the end of each billing month, the total electricity you sent back (sold) to the grid will be subtracted from the total amount of energy you used (purchased) from the grid. This determines your "net" amount.

Net metering is one way you can be compensated for this extra energy your system produces. The formula is simple:

Energy you produce - Energy you consume = net energy

NET METERING RATE
If your system is 10kW or less, the rate at which you earn net metering credits will be slightly lower than the full retail rate you pay for power from Eversource. This is because charges for energy efficiency, renewable energy and distributed solar are excluded from the net metering rate.

YOUR MONTHLY ELECTRIC BILL
Earned net metering credits can be used to reduce the amount owed on your monthly electric bill.

Your monthly bill will look different than it did before you installed a solar energy system. In months where you produced more energy than you used, your Eversource bill should show a negative balance because net metering credits were applied to that bill and possibly roll over to future bills.

If you use more electricity than you generate, Eversource supplies the power you need at the standard rate. If this occurs over the course of a month, net metering credits will not appear on your bill.

VIRTUAL NET METERING
Earned credits roll over each month. If you find yourself accumulating too many credits, you can share them with other Eversource customers in Massachusetts. This is known as virtual net metering.

You are limited by your home's location to where you can transfer credits. In western Massachusetts, you can share net metering credits only with other customers in western Massachusetts.


Let's assume I buy a system that produces 6,000 kWh per year and every year I use 5,500, thereby creating a surplus of 500 each year.

My utility company will not issue me a check for that 500 surplus. If I never get to use them all when I am having deficit months then that surplus will just continue to grow. The only way I can get any value for them is to assign them to you (if you are also an Eversource customer). I can either gift them to you or charge you for them. But that obviously requires a lot more time to fill out the proper form to get this done plus negotiating with you a price if I do want to get paid for them.

Seems fairly clear to me from the above that I do not want to pay for an oversized system that will end up producing kWh that cannot be used by me and only have some form of value to me if I put some work into it.

Therefore it does seem important to narrow down what my annual electricity consumption will be.
Yes, in the case where you can't actually sell the electricity back, it makes sense to get to $0 and not past it.
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by joypog » Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:15 am

vnatale wrote:
Mon Aug 22, 2022 9:59 pm
6,000 total books
5,000 or so CDs
8,000 records
May I suggest getting a Kindle and a Spotify subscription, toss the rest, and move into a 200 SF studio on South Beach?

O0 8) O0
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by vnatale » Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:44 am

joypog wrote:
Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:15 am

vnatale wrote:
Mon Aug 22, 2022 9:59 pm

6,000 total books
5,000 or so CDs
8,000 records

May I suggest getting a Kindle and a Spotify subscription, toss the rest, and move into a 200 SF studio on South Beach?

O0 8) O0


I get the spirit of the suggestion. A lot of the books are not available in any e-form. Many of the CDs and records not available anywhere but the form they are in.

Plus I have an extreme owner bias. Don't like the whole monthly payment thing. Which is one of the minor reasons for going solar. I will now own the means of electricity production (for the most part when the sun is out) rather than renting or paying a monthly fee.

Also, I left out that I have about 1,500 DVDs, which I am going to keep (in alphabetical order) in my garage. But I also have 3,000 VHS tapes that I have been trying to give away for free via Facebook Marketplace and Craigslist (earlier in the year I did give away 1,200 books). I documented that 800 of the VHS tapes have a value of about $6,000 (using their present for sale values on Amazon).

Finally (until I enumerate any more of my collections) I may have a million sports / baseball cards. They are all in boxes in that basement!

Finally, finally, boxes and boxes and boxes of Sports Illustrated's I bought for $7,000 in various eBay purchases 20 years ago with the intention of reselling them on eBay. And, then even more boxes and boxes of magazines I have bought which can be resold individually.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by joypog » Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:18 am

I'm with you. I love the ebook reader we got for my daughter last year.

But I refuse to buy ebooks.

Just bought three physical books last week to go with my boxes of books in the garage (9 years and counting until we find a home worthy of unpacking all the volumes that we dragged across the country).
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by vnatale » Tue Aug 23, 2022 10:08 am

joypog wrote:
Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:18 am

I'm with you. I love the ebook reader we got for my daughter last year.

But I refuse to buy ebooks.

Just bought three physical books last week to go with my boxes of books in the garage (9 years and counting until we find a home worthy of unpacking all the volumes that we dragged across the country).


I will read a book in any form. Paper. iPad. iPad mini. Kindle. Phone. iTouch. Nook. This computer (as I did in its entirety the Harbinger book that Mountaineer recently recommended).

I like paper when reading outside in bright light. But I appreciate the devices for having a perfectly flat reading area as opposed to the slope you get in the middle on real paper books.

I really like my Kindle Paperwhite that I get just put in my back pocket and pull out to use it when a reading opportunity arises.

Last year at this time I had piles and piles of books all over my house plus boxes and boxes of books in my garage and basement. As a super organized person I did not like that they were not organized and that I could not just go to a shelf and get at them.

Last October I decided to remedy that. I had no idea how consuming it turned out to be. I was shocked to find out how many boxes of books I had in the garage. It ended up being a six month process and probably took about 400 hours. But, in the end, I was able to get those 1,200 books out of the house plus get all books shelved into categories and in either alphabetical or chronological order.

I was rewarded for all that work on Sunday when a friend was here and I was giving him the house tour, especially focusing on the books. Another friend had been at my house earlier in the day and he was interested in the book that the friend who I was giving the house tour had written. While we were in the basement we were able to head right to the fiction section and find his book right where it should have been - in alphabetical order by author.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by vnatale » Tue Aug 23, 2022 10:25 am

Xan wrote:
Mon Aug 22, 2022 10:12 pm

vnatale wrote:
Mon Aug 22, 2022 9:45 pm


NET METERING RATE
If your system is 10kW or less, the rate at which you earn net metering credits will be slightly lower than the full retail rate you pay for power from Eversource. This is because charges for energy efficiency, renewable energy and distributed solar are excluded from the net metering rate.

YOUR MONTHLY ELECTRIC BILL
Earned net metering credits can be used to reduce the amount owed on your monthly electric bill.

Your monthly bill will look different than it did before you installed a solar energy system. In months where you produced more energy than you used, your Eversource bill should show a negative balance because net metering credits were applied to that bill and possibly roll over to future bills.

If you use more electricity than you generate, Eversource supplies the power you need at the standard rate. If this occurs over the course of a month, net metering credits will not appear on your bill.




Yes, in the case where you can't actually sell the electricity back, it makes sense to get to $0 and not past it.


Thanks for staying with me on this one because you have motivated me to try to completely understand how this works.

First of all, when I take out the charges for "energy efficiency, renewable energy and distributed solar" the rate I pay 29.4 cents gets reduced to 26.8 cents in "net metering credits" which is a 9% reduction. I consider 9% to be a lot more than "slightly lower". 0.9% would be "slightly lower", not 9%.

Do you agree the above is not clear?

Do they give net metering credits strictly on a kWh used / produced basis? That would be simple. But that does not seem to be the case when they state "the rate at which you earn net metering credits will be slightly lower". That makes it seem that unlike charging / crediting on a kWh for kWh basis it is all done on a $ basis. So I can continue to absorb electric bills as long as I am net positive $-wise for credits I've earned in $.

Or could they possibly give me credit for kWh at only 91% of what I am producing?

I could call the electric company to clarify but I'm always hesitant to call a company of that size because you can either be put on endless holds before you either talk to someone or finally get someone who actually can answer the question.

I could ask the solar installers but I may be venturing into an all too familiar territory with me wherein I have investigated something so thoroughly that I end up knowing more details of some aspects of a product than does the person trying to sell me that product and I"m put into the position of educating them about their product and how it works.

Intuitively it seems that if I produced 500 kWh in a month and used 500 kWh in that same month that I would see a net zero. It'd seem weird to have consumed 500 kWh but then only got credit for about 455 kWh and have to pay for the other 45 remaining.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by joypog » Tue Aug 23, 2022 10:43 am

vnatale wrote:
Tue Aug 23, 2022 10:08 am
in alphabetical order by author.
I worked on the order of the alphabet with my daughter by organizing her children's book. Lasted for a couple of months before entropy took over.... >:D
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by vnatale » Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:03 am

joypog wrote:
Tue Aug 23, 2022 10:43 am

vnatale wrote:
Tue Aug 23, 2022 10:08 am

in alphabetical order by author.

I worked on the order of the alphabet with my daughter by organizing her children's book. Lasted for a couple of months before entropy took over.... >:D


Now over 50 years ago I can still remember a chemistry professor well embedding in me from what he said to explain entropy. He said, "Think of your dorm rooms. Does anything in it ever go back into order?" We instantly all got it!
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by vnatale » Fri Sep 30, 2022 3:53 pm

It's been a full 38 days since I have given any updates on my solar installation journey.

1. I realized I was primarily down to two things:
a. Deciding on what size system I needed.
b. Who should do the work

2. Taking them in steps led me to thinking about that electric hot water heater heat pump that was only working as a traditional electric hot water heater due to the fan not working.

It seemed that having a functioning electric hot water heater heat pump would save money in three ways:
a. It'd use 60% to 75% less electricity than my current malfunctioning one.
b. It'd allow my dehumidifier to run less and use less electricity since the heat pump hot water heater does some dehumidifying when it is heating the water.
c. The combination of a. & b. would mean I could get by with a small sized solar installation.

My present one cost $1,000 in December 2012 with a $1,000 rebate. So my total cost ended up being $70 for the tax and $400 installation. Total of about $500.

I had a quote (after a lower present rebate of about $650) for a new one installed - about $1,400. So about $900 more than last time around. When I got that quote last spring it did not seem like a good payback for the amount of money I'd save. But now with the solar involved it (the analysis above) it seemed like I should.

I called the person who had done that $400 installation in December 2012 (plus same day doing $1,000 for a 100 amp electrical service). He recommended a Ruud unit for an after rebate cost of about $2,500! Whoa!

Somehow in the conversation he thought it'd be a smart move to, instead, get the fan replaced in my existing, not fully functioning unit. He estimated labor costs of $200 to $500. I asked him if it was wise to put that much money into a ten year old unit. He said yes.

The fan was free under warranty but no associated labor. I called to get the fan. They estimated it to be a two hour job.

One of the players on my softball team is now a fully licensed electrician. I asked him if he'd be interested in doing the work. He said Yes. He came here three weeks ago tomorrow. After 3 hours of tricky work he got that fan in and I've had a fully functioning electric hot water heat pump since!

After he finished the job he said, "How about $60". I told him that job was worth at least $150 so that was what I paid him. I was thrilled to rehabilitate my present one for only $150 compared to my next lowest cost option of about $1,400.

I do have an electricity monitoring system (installed by that same person) that tells me how much electricity every separate house circuit is using - both in real and historical time periods. Like by the second, minute, hour, day. As soon as he replaced the fan there was a dramatic drop in usage on the circuit that the hot water heater is on.

3. Next I focused on the dehumidifier I'd been running since May. I had bought a brand new one last winter. I had tried to use that one initially but I could not even find its bucket! I tried to learn how to run it from its manual but that day I had little patience for it. I decided to just use my old one which I used from May until late August.

Once it finally sunk in that that dehumidifier was using a lot of electricity, I got super motivated to finally read the manual for the new dehumidifier.

But first I wanted to document how much electricity that old dehumidifier was using. I put a meter on it that ran continuously.

I took readings on that meter (plus my house meter) for the next three days.

Now the thing could have been running 24 hours a day if emptied the bucket each night but I did not empty that bucket. So it usually stopped running about 11 PM, which meant it was running about 16 hours a day.

In that 16 hours of running it was consuming more electricity than the whole rest of my house put together - about 8 kWh per day! That is nearly $2.50 a day to run it. $80 a month just for that dehumidifier.

After those three days I put in my new one and have been monitoring it since. It allows me to set the humidity level and I set it to 65%.

It does run as much as it wants for 24 hours, i.e., the bucket does not get full to stop it from running.

It uses less than 25% of the electricity than does the old one. Cost than is about $0.60 per day or about $20 per month. Completely palatable.

4. Now I'm seeing all these utility rebates for other things to do for your house. A big one is heat pumps for both heating and cooling.

This week I got through the income verification thing so that I am qualified for enhanced rebates. That is due to my 2021 income being about my lowest. I had not started Social Security until May and it will not be until next year that I start those Required Minimum Distributions. Part of those enhanced rebates is getting free insulation!

This week I contacted a lot of contractors. Two have already been here this week and two more are coming Tuesday with more to come.

The first contractor recommended a 6,000 BTU for this bedroom. Cost would be $4,500 installed less a $650 rebate. Which would be less than $4,000. However, I am eligible for a $16,000 rebate for a full house heat pump system. A full house heat pump system could be adding another 6,000 unit to the other bedroom and then a 12,000 unit to cover the living room, the kitchen, and a room / space you walk through to get to each.

It's now looking quite good that I will be doing this. Of course this will shift my heating costs from oil to electricity which will then increase the size of my solar installation.

I'm trying to determine how much wattage each of those units consume when running. I was shocked to find out that a 6,000 watt unit consumes anywhere between 300 to 600 watts. That is so tiny compared to traditional electric space heaters.

Plus these heat pumps also serve as air conditioning.

Right now I get along quite well without air conditioning. I think I only had it on in my car for about an hour this year. in the house I have two ceiling fans and portable fans and that is always quite tolerable to me. I cannot take the least bit of cold but I can take a lot of hot.

But I will have the air conditioning if I ever need it.

I found a formula in an article which stated that you divide the BTU by the unit's EER to get its wattage. I later realized that was the formula for cooling. Have to still find a formula for when it is heating.

That IS my update!
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Sep 30, 2022 4:37 pm

Vinny, this is suggesting that you should keep your indoor humidity between 30 and 50% to keep mold away. I try to keep my house between 45 and 50% for best balance of no mold and comfortable eyes and lungs. YMMV.

https://www.gpinspect.com/article/humid ... vent-mold/
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by vnatale » Fri Sep 30, 2022 4:55 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 4:37 pm

Vinny, this is suggesting that you should keep your indoor humidity between 30 and 50% to keep mold away. I try to keep my house between 45 and 50% for best balance of no mold and comfortable eyes and lungs. YMMV.

https://www.gpinspect.com/article/humid ... vent-mold/


Thanks. Just read that article in its entirety.

I consider my house to have several zones. Attached garage. Basement. The actual house I live in.

The garage I consider to be almost outside except that it sheltered, which allows me to keep a lot in it. I consider it to be a better environment for things compared to the basement. It has a far wider range of temperatures but far less humidity. The basement is for things. I don't spend much time there. Then, of course, the part of the house I live in.

It is the basement where I am using the dehumidifier at a 65% setting. I just checked the humidity setting for this bedroom where no de-humification is going and the reading is 45%.

This article deals strictly with the desired humidity levels for basements:

https://homeairadvisor.com/what-should- ... -basement/

It looks like my setting puts me right at the edge:

"Anything above 65 percent of moisture in the air is considered a high humidity level."
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by vnatale » Sat Jan 21, 2023 2:22 pm

Pointedstick wrote:
Thu Aug 18, 2022 6:03 pm

I think you're over-analyzing. :) What you end up with is never going to perfectly match your calculations and predictions. At a certain point you just have to take the plunge, if it's something you actually want to do.

My take?
- Get a 6 kW system for a bit of wiggle room (always build in wiggle room).
- Don't store anything sensitive to moisture in your basement in the first place. It's a losing battle. You're single, you have a house, and you're a quirky guy with no spouse to complain about what you do in the house; move the books into somewhere else in your house and then your humidity issues reduce significantly.
- Have an HVAC guy (not a plumber) fix the fan on your heat pump water heater. Much cheaper than buying a new one. That combined with the above may take care of the basement humidity automatically.
- Regardless, rig your dehumidifier so that its tank drains somewhere. For example, you can mount it over a sink or drain in your basement, and run a hose down from the bottom of its drainage tank.


I have now adopted many of your suggestions!

1) Had the fan replaced in my water heater on September 10, 2022. Now that it can again be in heat pump mode rather than straight electric resistance --- it uses about 25% to 30% of the electricity that it had been using prior to fan replacement.

2) I replaced the old dehumidifier with a new one. That one again uses only 25% to 30% of the electricity the old one was using.

3) The big, big, BIG news is that three weeks ago I had three mini-splits (each on their own heat pumps) installed! One is 18,000 BTU while the other two are each 6,000 BTU. That represents a huge wild card in trying to size a solar installation.

4) Also I was always quite bothered that going with a solar roof installation was going to cause me to have to spend $5,400 for replacing just the east side of my roof. Presently my roof (last replaced in December 2005 with 30 year shingles) looks great. It could go 10, 15, even 20 more years and not need replacing. One day while outside with a mini-split / heat pump vendor ... all of a sudden it hit me ....why not a ground mount instead! I said that to the vendor and he thought it was a great idea.

The east side roof was only going to be at 78% while a south side ground mount would be 100%. Therefore though a ground mount costs more to create the platform for the solar panels to mount upon ... I'd not have to pay the $5,400 for a needless roof replacement (and keeping a roof replacement decision separate from any solar decisions) and presumably for a given output would need less panels on the south side than the north side.

It's only been 3 weeks and 2 days that the mini-splits / heat pumps have been running but I've ben monitoring all their usages (plus every other circuit in my electrical panel) using this wonderful device.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08CJGPHL9/?r ... _item&th=1

As I write this this is how electricity is being consumed in my house:

e.JPG
e.JPG (48.84 KiB) Viewed 2114 times


This is a graph of my daily use in total and by circuit.

Capture.JPG
Capture.JPG (88 KiB) Viewed 2114 times


My total use is about 24 kWh per day. 16 of that is from the three mini-splits / heat pumps with 8 being used by everything else in my house.

But this would be a relative low use for the three mini-splits / heat pumps.

1) The temperatures have been quite mild for this time of year. In the upper 30s. None of the zero or below zero we could get this time of year.

2) The other bedroom and the living room (which does the rest of the house) are set at only 61 degrees. This bedroom is set at either 65 or 72.

I'm currently heavily involved in discussions with many solar vendors, asking them for quotes for both roof and ground mount systems.

Intially I asked for outputs of about 7,000 kWh annually from each set up.

Now with the preliminary information from the mini-splits / heat pumps I think I might now be in the 7,500 to 8,000 range.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by Pointedstick » Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:52 am

Looks like your project is coming along nicely. The ground-mount array idea sounds like it makes a lot of sense!

Also notable that replacing old electric appliances with new ones delivered such a massive energy savings. Some things do get better over time. :)

I've said it before but it bears repeating: "30-year shingles" is a marketing term, not a description of the product's expected longevity. The point is somewhat moot now that you're going for a ground-mounted array, but since the roof is at year 22 IIRC, don't be surprised if a heat wave or a hailstorm significantly damages the roof at any time, and also don't be surprised if after this happens, you discover that the manufacturer's warranty includes fine print invalidating it if one of those extreme weather event events occurred after year 20.


---


You'll probably start to notice this yourself if you haven't already: when well-coordinated, these projects synergize and produce tipping points where they deliver more value than the sum of their individual contributions.

For example, when I was going through the process of replacing each gas appliance with an electric one, each replacement was either a wash, or sometimes a small win in exchange for the increased cost (e.g. getting air conditioning as a part of the heat pump project, or improving indoor air quality from no longer burning gas indoors with a range).

But the first real tipping point arrived once all of the gas appliances were replaced, since I got to cancel my utility gas account. Boom, $18/mo savings from simply not paying the gas account's base charge any more, and no more vulnerability to gas grid outages (they happen).

The next tipping point happened after I got solar. Boom, suddenly my electric bill all but vanished. Now my monthly electricity costs are 100% predictable, just the $8 and change monthly base charge.

The final tipping point arrived when I got an EV. Since I had sized the solar array to accommodate an EV in the future, my monthly gasoline costs vanished too, and the electric bill didn't budge. So I've been basically driving for free over the past 3 years. Literally my only operating and maintenance costs have been a tire that needed replacement after I drove over a screw. Also the car's large 66 kWh battery doubles as a stealth non-gas-burning generator so we can ride out power outages without drawing attention to ourselves, which I've done and it's marvelous. I don't identify as such anymore, but this setup is a prepper's dream, really.

IMO this stuff is even more of a no-brainer than it was when I started this thread 6 years ago. It's practical, it's affordable when compared to alternatives, and the benefits are obvious to people who are capable of "getting it." Anyone with their own property not living hand-to-mouth can migrate slowly in this direction and eventually reap the benefits.
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Re: Renewable electricity sources are now a no-brainer

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:02 pm

PS, good to hear from you. That was a well done synopsis of your solar experience and very helpful.

…Mountaineer
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