Trump as tragicomedy

[vnatale]

About 6 in 10 voters think Trump was not prepared for coronavirus outbreak, poll finds


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 101764002/

That's kind of like saying after the fact that poll finds 6 in 10 Japanese say Hirohito was not prepared for the atomic bomb.

I think you need to further explain your analogy for me to understand it. As far I know just the fact that Japan had an Emperor means that they were a closed, non-participatory country. We, on the other hand, are a democratic republic with information free flowing.

Next question for you....Of those 6 (in 10) what is your guess as to the range (low to high percent) who, if the election was held next week, would be voting for Trump?

Vinny

Point one - it is impossible to predict disasters with much accuracy - in the case of Hiroshima a brand new weapon. Like trying to predict exactly (e.g. in time to evacuate people) when the Yellowstone caldera is going to blow again. Meanwhile, the tourists keep on flocking there. I'm sure though, if it blows in July, it will be Trump's fault (pun intended).

Point two - the election is not going to be held next week - that's my prediction.

However, to stay on your analogy Nagasaki was 100% predictable. How many out of 10 Japanese would have said he was not prepared when he could have 100% prevented it?

Trump kept downplaying the seriousness of what this has turned out to be. Think that had no affect on the poor behavior of others?

I'll spare you here my other thoughts on what more he could reasonably been expected to do but which chose to not do.

Vinny

Perhaps Nagasaki was reasonably predictible, perhaps not (this is my view especially if you apply the adjective reasonably to the noun predictable).... it was only a couple days later. I seriously doubt they could have evacuated every city in Japan just because they thought another atomic bomb were coming somewhere. I expect they also could have reasonably predicted Tokyo was a target but they still lost more people in the fire bombing than at Hiroshima (I think). I think when one views events like a horse through blinders, one will miss a lot of the unseen events that can totally change the overall scene. Leaves? Trees? Forrest? Some never see they are in a forrest. Some do, but only with 20-20 hindsight.

All you say is reasonable. However, isn't it reasonable to also assume that after the first atomic bomb that the Emperor could have decided enough is enough? Thought that If the Americans had that one, how many others do they have? How can I continue to allow such destruction to occur in my beloved country?

The point was not evacuating. The point was unconditional surrendering.

Vinny

[vnatale]

Perhaps Nagasaki was reasonably predictible, perhaps not (this is my view especially if you apply the adjective reasonably to the noun predictable).... it was only a couple days later. I seriously doubt they could have evacuated every city in Japan just because they thought another atomic bomb were coming somewhere. I expect they also could have reasonably predicted Tokyo was a target but they still lost more people in the fire bombing than at Hiroshima (I think). I think when one views events like a horse through blinders, one will miss a lot of the unseen events that can totally change the overall scene. Leaves? Trees? Forrest? Some never see they are in a forrest. Some do, but only with 20-20 hindsight.

He could have surrendered after the first one instead of waiting for a second.

It's actually a good thing for us he surrendered after two, because (IIRC) that's all we had.

And, it's good for us (and the rest of the world) those were those only two that have ever been used in any war.

We are now 75 years later. Certainly not the case for any other weapon ever invented, some of which had the name of "peacemaker" due to the human destruction they caused and the thought the threat of their use would prevent wars.

Vinny

[vnatale]

The missing six weeks: how Trump failed the biggest test of his life

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... h-disaster

[vnatale]

The missing six weeks: how Trump failed the biggest test of his life

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... h-disaster

"This week Fauci was asked by a Science magazine writer, Jon Cohen, how he could stand beside Trump at daily press briefings and listen to him misleading the American people with comments such as that the China travel ban had been a great success in blocking entry of the virus. Fauci replied: “I know, but what do you want me to do? I mean, seriously Jon, let’s get real, what do you want me to do?”"

"‘A total vacuum of federal leadership’
In the absence of a strong federal response, a patchwork of efforts has sprouted all across the country. State governors are doing their own thing. Cities, even individual hospitals, are coping as best they can.

In an improvised attempt to address such inconsistencies, charitable startups have proliferated on social media. Konyndyk has clubbed together with fellow disaster relief experts to set up Covid Local, an online “quick and dirty” guide to how to fight a pandemic.

“We are seeing the emergence of 50-state anarchy, because of a total vacuum of federal leadership. It’s absurd that thinktanks and Twitter are providing more actionable guidance in the US than the federal government, but that’s where we are.”"

[vnatale]

Trump is certainly not my personal idea of a role model .... but, you know me, I place God's will above mans' sinful corrupted view of how things should be according to our fallen and cursed reason. To the best of my knowledge, Trump has not required us to go against any of God's Word. So:

LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR
#16 Parents and other authority figures in church and society deserve love, respect, and obedience because God has set them over us as his representatives. In the event that they command us to do something contrary to God’s Word, then we must obey God and disobey their command.
#17 Secular governments are instituted by God to maintain peace and order on earth. Therefore Christians should always respect their leaders as God’s representatives and should pray for them. Christians may serve in government and may work to improve government.

To the best of your knowledge, I'd be curious to see your list of when Obama required us to go against any of God's Word?

And, does the Trump administration exemplify the spirit of these verses? In what ways has he by his own examples led the American people to behave in the way exhorted by these verses?

Matthew 25:36-40 New King James Version (NKJV)
36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

Vinny

[stuper1]

Vinny,

You must be a very gullible person if you believe anything written in today's media. They have demonstrated over and over that they are completely biased and unreliable.

[Kriegsspiel]

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same

[Mountaineer]

Trump is certainly not my personal idea of a role model .... but, you know me, I place God's will above mans' sinful corrupted view of how things should be according to our fallen and cursed reason. To the best of my knowledge, Trump has not required us to go against any of God's Word. So:

LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR
#16 Parents and other authority figures in church and society deserve love, respect, and obedience because God has set them over us as his representatives. In the event that they command us to do something contrary to God’s Word, then we must obey God and disobey their command.
#17 Secular governments are instituted by God to maintain peace and order on earth. Therefore Christians should always respect their leaders as God’s representatives and should pray for them. Christians may serve in government and may work to improve government.

To the best of your knowledge, I'd be curious to see your list of when Obama required us to go against any of God's Word?

And, does the Trump administration exemplify the spirit of these verses? In what ways has he by his own examples led the American people to behave in the way exhorted by these verses?

Matthew 25:36-40 New King James Version (NKJV)
36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

Vinny

Is it more loving to try to help your neighbor and fail,

or,

More loving to throw verbal hand grenades on to your neighbors' actions without having first hand information about the pertinent facts?

or,

More loving to complain about actions of others over which you have no control?

Pot meet kettle.

[vnatale]

Trump is certainly not my personal idea of a role model .... but, you know me, I place God's will above mans' sinful corrupted view of how things should be according to our fallen and cursed reason. To the best of my knowledge, Trump has not required us to go against any of God's Word. So:

LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR
#16 Parents and other authority figures in church and society deserve love, respect, and obedience because God has set them over us as his representatives. In the event that they command us to do something contrary to God’s Word, then we must obey God and disobey their command.
#17 Secular governments are instituted by God to maintain peace and order on earth. Therefore Christians should always respect their leaders as God’s representatives and should pray for them. Christians may serve in government and may work to improve government.

To the best of your knowledge, I'd be curious to see your list of when Obama required us to go against any of God's Word?

And, does the Trump administration exemplify the spirit of these verses? In what ways has he by his own examples led the American people to behave in the way exhorted by these verses?

Matthew 25:36-40 New King James Version (NKJV)
36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

Vinny

Is it more loving to try to help your neighbor and fail,

or,

More loving to throw verbal hand grenades on to your neighbors' actions without having first hand information about the pertinent facts?

or,

More loving to complain about actions of others over which you have no control?

Pot meet kettle.

Direct questions. No direct answers.

Vinny

[Mountaineer]

Trump is certainly not my personal idea of a role model .... but, you know me, I place God's will above mans' sinful corrupted view of how things should be according to our fallen and cursed reason. To the best of my knowledge, Trump has not required us to go against any of God's Word. So:

LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR
#16 Parents and other authority figures in church and society deserve love, respect, and obedience because God has set them over us as his representatives. In the event that they command us to do something contrary to God’s Word, then we must obey God and disobey their command.
#17 Secular governments are instituted by God to maintain peace and order on earth. Therefore Christians should always respect their leaders as God’s representatives and should pray for them. Christians may serve in government and may work to improve government.

To the best of your knowledge, I'd be curious to see your list of when Obama required us to go against any of God's Word?

And, does the Trump administration exemplify the spirit of these verses? In what ways has he by his own examples led the American people to behave in the way exhorted by these verses?

Matthew 25:36-40 New King James Version (NKJV)
36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

Vinny

Is it more loving to try to help your neighbor and fail,

or,

More loving to throw verbal hand grenades on to your neighbors' actions without having first hand information about the pertinent facts?

or,

More loving to complain about actions of others over which you have no control?

Pot meet kettle.

Direct questions. No direct answers.

Vinny

Vinny, I understand that you are a binary guy. However, for a non-binary guy, I clearly answered your questions. And, from your response on the daily check in thread, my opinion is you did not understand the poem.

Here is another for you to ponder, perhaps it shall be clearer, perhaps not.

“I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.
"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring

Peace be with you.

[ochotona]

Less than a month ago Trump tweeted:

"So last year 37,000 Americans died from the common Flu. It averages between 27,000 and 70,000 per year. Nothing is shut down, life & the economy go on. At this moment there are 546 confirmed cases of CoronaVirus, with 22 deaths," he tweeted on March 9. "Think about that!"

I emailed my family, cancelling upcoming travel plans on Jan 22. So either I'm prescient, or Trump is a moron. Oh wait, it's both!

Not really comic, all tragic.

300,000 cases. 549x in less than a month. What a total failure of a National response. If he had any shame he'd resign. Having none, he stays and we suffer.

[Mountaineer]

Less than a month ago Trump tweeted:

"So last year 37,000 Americans died from the common Flu. It averages between 27,000 and 70,000 per year. Nothing is shut down, life & the economy go on. At this moment there are 546 confirmed cases of CoronaVirus, with 22 deaths," he tweeted on March 9. "Think about that!"

I emailed my family, cancelling upcoming travel plans on Jan 22. So either I'm prescient, or Trump is a moron. Oh wait, it's both!

Not really comic, all tragic.

300,000 cases. 549x in less than a month. What a total failure of a National response. If he had any shame he'd resign. Having none, he stays and we suffer.

I take it you are a Pence lover, or do you wish for both to resign and have Nancy P. as President? Or some other scenario? Serious questions.

[ochotona]

Less than a month ago Trump tweeted:

"So last year 37,000 Americans died from the common Flu. It averages between 27,000 and 70,000 per year. Nothing is shut down, life & the economy go on. At this moment there are 546 confirmed cases of CoronaVirus, with 22 deaths," he tweeted on March 9. "Think about that!"

I emailed my family, cancelling upcoming travel plans on Jan 22. So either I'm prescient, or Trump is a moron. Oh wait, it's both!

Not really comic, all tragic.

300,000 cases. 549x in less than a month. What a total failure of a National response. If he had any shame he'd resign. Having none, he stays and we suffer.

I take it you are a Pence lover, or do you wish for both to resign and have Nancy P. as President? Or some other scenario? Serious questions.

Pence better than Trump. Sure. Why not? Let's go.

[dualstow]

Be careful what you wish for, Ocho. Pence isn’t going to be any kinder to immigrants — something you and I touched on the past — and he seems a bit Salem in the 16 17th century.

[Tyler]

I personally think people need to tone down the blame game and focus on solutions right now. But if we want to honestly evaluate the media and government response to the coronavirus, I feel it's important to apply the same standards to all people regardless of political affiliation. There's a TON of revisionist history going on in the name of pure political propaganda.

Note what the same people blaming everything on Trump today were talking about as the pandemic took hold:

https://twitter.com/FreeBeacon/status/1 ... 2576812032

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... travel-ban

https://www.dailysignal.com/2020/03/30/ ... -examples/

But seriously -- focus on what you can control. Stop reading whatever is getting you so upset and divert that energy to taking care of your family and living the best life you can. You'll be a lot happier and healthier.

[vnatale]

Sideshow Don: Trump pursues a non-virus agenda
Even as he struggles to beat back a global pandemic, the president is going after other targets.


https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/0 ... nda-165086

[vnatale]

"38 days ago, Donald Trump said, “because of all we’ve done, the risk to the American people remains very low… within a couple of days [the number of cases] is going to be down to close to zero."

Today we surpassed 300,000 cases, with 8,000 fatalities."

[vnatale]

Capture.JPG (27.79 KiB) Viewed 4731 times

[vnatale]

Editorial: It's time for the networks to stop live broadcast of Trump's briefings


https://www.stltoday.com/opinion/editor ... 98998.html

[vnatale]

The Facts on Trump’s Travel Restrictions

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/the-f ... social-pug

[stuper1]

It's been posted on another thread that April 16, 2020, will be the height of coronavirus deaths in the US and will be this generation's Pearl Harbor. Run a thought experiment. Do you think that on December 8, 1941, you would have woken up to find any newspaper or radio show in the country criticizing President Roosevelt? No, of course not, because in the middle of a crisis is not the time to question leadership. It's the time to put aside political differences and pull together. There is plenty of time for fingerpointing later on.

Contrast this with what you will see in the media on April 17, 2020. We have people dying from the virus. We have people punching each other and threatening worse over lack of access to basic supplies. We have people worried that things could get even worse and that food supplies could run short, banks could close, martial law may be needed, etc.

But you won't see the media trying to do its part to unify us just for a short time until we get through the worst of it. All you will see them doing is fanning the flames and trying to pin the blame on Trump. Some of you might say but yeah he deserves it. Guess what, there is 46% of the population that voted for him in 2016, many of whom still think he's doing a good job (at least as good as Clinton would have done). But the media won't care. They just want to make sure not to waste any crisis. I suppose it might have been the same in 1941 if a non-media-friendly person had been president then.

[vnatale]

It's been posted on another thread that April 16, 2020, will be the height of coronavirus deaths in the US and will be this generation's Pearl Harbor. Run a thought experiment. Do you think that on December 8, 1941, you would have woken up to find any newspaper or radio show in the country criticizing President Roosevelt? No, of course not, because in the middle of a crisis is not the time to question leadership. It's the time to put aside political differences and pull together. There is plenty of time for fingerpointing later on.

Contrast this with what you will see in the media on April 17, 2020. We have people dying from the virus. We have people punching each other and threatening worse over lack of access to basic supplies. We have people worried that things could get even worse and that food supplies could run short, banks could close, martial law may be needed, etc.

But you won't see the media trying to do its part to unify us just for a short time until we get through the worst of it. All you will see them doing is fanning the flames and trying to pin the blame on Trump. Some of you might say but yeah he deserves it. Guess what, there is 46% of the population that voted for him in 2016, many of whom still think he's doing a good job (at least as good as Clinton would have done). But the media won't care. They just want to make sure not to waste any crisis. I suppose it might have been the same in 1941 if a non-media-friendly person had been president then.

Analogy does not quite fit on a few levels?

December 8th was the 1st day after....not, depending upon how you view it, months after the start of this present crisis.

What would the media's reactions have been in the subsequent months if Roosevelt just plain downplayed the seriousness. "That Pearl Harbor things was a one-off thing. We need to get the economy back to normal and not engage in all this wasteful war spending. It's ALL a Republican hoax!"

It was genuinely the total opposite approach for Roosevelt compared to Trump. Roosevelt was constantly trying to bring us into World War II, going against the prevalent American position of isolationism. He went against this as best he could prior to Pearl Harbor by doing things such as engaging in Lend Lease with England. On the other hand, this time around Trump did his best to minimize the seriousness and to plain waste time in getting serious. Do we yet know who besides GM he has ordered to produce anything?

The only thing that Roosevelt could have been criticized for on December 8th was how did we allow Pearl Harbor to happen and how did we allow it to be so devastating. There was an immediate investigation into this while WW II was going on and at least two Admirals were reprimanded with penalties. Some say they were scapegoats and the blame should have been placed on others above them.

Finally the analogy fails because WW II was far more black and white. We were attacked by Japan with Germany then almost right away declaring war on us. It was clear-cut who the enemy was and what the goal was - unconditional surrender for each.

Here, what is the goal? There is tons of legitimate criticisms regarding Trump for the way he is handling it. That political rally he put on yesterday was just what the country needs at this time? Did that inspire confidence in you? Do you think that inspired confidence in the 54% who did not vote for him? Do you think it inspired confidence in ALL the non-voters, who are a huge amount of our populace?

If the media and the country is so well united during time of War, why did Lincoln even have an opponent in the middle of a Civil War. There's obviously tons of implied criticism in that. Do you think there were no newspapers being critical of him during the runup to that 1864 election?

Vinny

[dualstow]

But you won't see the media trying to do its part to unify us just for a short time until we get through the worst of it.

+1
Some of it may be due to the election but even if Trump wins again, I don’t see the media trying hard to unify us, period.

[vnatale]

But you won't see the media trying to do its part to unify us just for a short time until we get through the worst of it.

+1
Some of it may be due to the election but even if Trump wins again, I don’t see the media trying hard to unify us, period.

How hard was the media trying to unify us during the Vietnam war?

Popular un-support among both the populace AND the media precipitated President Johnson in the spring of 1968 making the unprecedented decision to announce that he would not be running for re-election in November 1968.

What happened to the liberal, Democratic loving media during his years as a war-time president?

Unrelenting criticism of Carter during the Iran Hostage crisis??!!!

Vinny

[dualstow]

The Vietnam War was a misadventure. We didn’t get coronavirus by attacking another country.
Hostage crisis - fair enough. I guess.