White Pride / Racism

[doodle]

Typing on phone here so will keep this brief. But since the election of Trump I have endeavored to understand better some of the positions of the so called "alt-right". Initially it seemed like a group inhabited entirely by kooks...however, i recently came across material by Jared Taylor and Stefan Molyneux on the topic of race and it has been eye opening to me in that it portrays the topic of racism in an entirely different light....namely that there are inherent biological differences between the races that have real world consequences in the success of various people's. While this topic is taboo to discuss in practically every area of society, that doesn't invalidate the facts. If you look up Jared Taylor on youtube you will find and endless amount of interviews but as an introduction the first little bit of this video does a pretty decent job of presenting the topic: https://youtu.be/z90KJWk3dPY

[stuper1]

I strongly suspect that there are inherent biological differences between races when looking at say average intelligence, strength, speed, etc. However, I don't know what to do with that information. Even if one race on average has a higher IQ than another, there still will be many individuals in the second race that have a higher IQ than many individuals in the first race. So, when I am dealing with any one person of the second race, how am I to know where they stand as an individual, and what difference would it make anyway? In the U.S.A. we already have a very heterogeneous society. What are we to do with this information on inherent biological differences if it in fact is true?

[doodle]

I agree, any differences that possibly exist do so on a bell curve. So while it might be possible that on average a person of west African genetic is faster on average than a person of northern European descent, there are many european individuals who are faster than west African individuals by the mere degree of variability within their respective bell curves. I guess the implications concern societal programs to address issues such as violence, educational attainment, equal representation within career fields....this of course also pertains to differences in such as are related to the sexes. We have a tendency to conflate differences with notions of superiority in our modern egalitarian culture. However this seems to be just cultural baggage that somehow has invaded the sciences courtesy of the horrible atrocities of the third Reich. The fact is, there are real world problems such as African poverty that need to be addressed. It makes sense to have an accurate idea of all the variables that exist that might influence this issue and if genetic differences between the races happen to be one, it would be best to know the facts...

[doodle]

I also am curious as to whether humans have the capacity to live peacefully and happily among others who are different from themselves in race and ethnicity. Are we truly capable of forming mixed societies, or is this a idealist pipe dream? So regardless of true biological differences between the races, are there social and cultural ones which preclude a truly harmonious multicultural / multiracial society from existing?

[Mountaineer]

I also am curious as to whether humans have the capacity to live peacefully and happily among others who are different from themselves in race and ethnicity. Are we truly capable of forming mixed societies, or is this a idealist pipe dream? So regardless of true biological differences between the races, are there social and cultural ones which preclude a truly harmonious multicultural / multiracial society from existing?

Have you ever seen a harmonious flock of birds flying by made up of sparrows, eagles, hawks, robins, sea gulls, cardinals, buzzards, condors, blue jays, and turkey vultures?

[Xan]

Just interjecting that it's interesting that black racism is denied to exist, black pride is celebrated, and white pride is called racism.

[moda0306]

I also am curious as to whether humans have the capacity to live peacefully and happily among others who are different from themselves in race and ethnicity. Are we truly capable of forming mixed societies, or is this a idealist pipe dream? So regardless of true biological differences between the races, are there social and cultural ones which preclude a truly harmonious multicultural / multiracial society from existing?

Have you ever seen a harmonious flock of birds flying by made up of sparrows, eagles, hawks, robins, sea gulls, cardinals, buzzards, condors, blue jays, and turkey vultures?

Those are completely different species of bird. That analogy would work if we were talking about chimpanzees or other mammals.

As one example, I have 3/4 German ancestry and 1/4 Norwegian ancestry. And while I've never been to either country, I'm quite sure I'd feel just-as-if-not-more at-home with a bunch of Mexican day-laborors than I would European Puritans. I tend to agree with Bret Weinstein on this topic... I think the U.S. wouldn't be a country I'd want to live in if it weren't for the influence that blacks on other foreigners of "questionable" morals had on the country.

That isn't to say we shouldn't be careful about how many and what kind of people we take into this country. It's just that when I see pasty fat white people complaining about lazy, shiftless foreigners in ways that wreak of genetic supremacy I kind of want to vomit. (NOT calling you that!)

I tend to think the cultural difference between the Irish immigrants and settled Americans in 1880 were a lot different than that of 2nd-generation brown & black immigrants and their white counterparts in the country today. For all the drawbacks of the internet, tv, and pop-culture, public schools, etc, they really have a way of eating up other cultural traits (good and bad) and homogenizing the hell out of us.

[moda0306]

Just interjecting that it's interesting that black racism is denied to exist, black pride is celebrated, and white pride is called racism.

Yeah that's pretty stupid. It's all tribalism. I agree with some that it's far-more of a problem when combined with of power structures. But it's still racism.

[ochotona]

Before I start, let me say that I fully support all people being able to celebrate their ethnic, cultural, religious heritages and share them with other people. That's just Motherhood and Apple Pie.

That said, I also believe that Whiteness is a fake construct which has been created to punish people who are outside of the group. Take for example the Irish. They were considered subhuman by English and Anglo-Americans alike. They were literally starved out of Ireland because during the Potato Famine there was plenty of food, except it was exported as a cash crop for the benefit of the English landlords. Through the happy accident of looking very much like English, Irish people have been able to included in Whiteness. But it was not always so. Another interesting case was the US Supreme Court case which tried to decide whether is Sicilian woman was White or Colored. The fact that the case had to be adjudicated is pretty damn terrifying because what if they had decided that she was Colored. Would that have legitimized 19th century slavery of people from Sicily?

Germans were not in the "in" group, especially after the world wars. Many Millers are really Muellers, right? But they could change their names and pass. Lucky for them.

In the present day, if you ask people from Iran if they are White, they will universally say yes, and they are scientifically Caucasian... however if you ask Americans the same question, many or most will say they do not consider Iranians to be White. They get bumped into a nether "sandbox" category with Arabs.

My wife's father was discriminated against in the 1960s in housing. He was 100% European descent however because he had a Caribbean accent he was considered non-white and was illegally barred from renting an apartment. My wife's 23andMe study proves that she is 100% European, but her Dad was not viewed as White. He was a "Spic". Why? Because it was convenient and profitable for people to use Whiteness as a weapon even on other Whites.

So I think the various European, British, Celtic, Slavic, etc heritages are wonderful should be celebrated alongside everyone else's, but I think "Whiteness" the way it has been used historically as a weapon is poisonous and racist. I don't think it can be used in a constructive manner because it has been a shape-shifter that has been manipulated in selfish ways. The water in that well is poisoned.

I think it would be great for "White" people to find ways to talk about their Heritages in a constructive manner. Maybe if you focus on your families you can do that. Everyone has a family which they value and love. But if you link your family to politics, especially very bad old politics then it's not a winning proposition. Then you get unfairly accused of being racist. Lie down with dogs, you get fleas, I guess.

Of course people of different backgrounds can get together harmoniously. I've been in a mixed-race marriage for 33 years, with two grown children. My mother often remarks how "Chinese" my wife is because she has a lot of similar values: hard work, scholarship, thriftiness, etc. These are human values, they belong to everyone and no one.

[ochotona]

So are Asians "White?" Asian Americans have the highest family wealth, educational attainment, and participation in marriage and lowest divorce and out of wedlock birth rates of any group in America. We'd raise the "White" statistics.

Noodles, compass, gunpowder... Yup

Are Jews White? Natalie Portman looks White. She's Israeli. Hitler didn't think so.

[stuper1]

Typing on phone here so will keep this brief. But since the election of Trump I have endeavored to understand better some of the positions of the so called "alt-right". Initially it seemed like a group inhabited entirely by kooks...however, i recently came across material by Jared Taylor and Stefan Molyneux on the topic of race and it has been eye opening to me in that it portrays the topic of racism in an entirely different light....namely that there are inherent biological differences between the races that have real world consequences in the success of various people's. While this topic is taboo to discuss in practically every area of society, that doesn't invalidate the facts. If you look up Jared Taylor on youtube you will find and endless amount of interviews but as an introduction the first little bit of this video does a pretty decent job of presenting the topic: https://youtu.be/z90KJWk3dPY

I'm genuinely curious, what do people like Taylor and Molyneux think should be society's actions based on these biological differences? I don't have time to watch the video.

[ochotona]

If we propose to treat people differently because of the statistical central tendency of their group, then we'd have to restrict gun ownership among males, since most gun related murders are done by men. Also pickup trucks for young men would have to come with speed governors, since pickups driven by young men are disproportionately represented in severe crashes. And what group do multiracial people belong to? Do we use linear or nonlinear weighting to compute the affiliation? Who certifies the group assignment? A Federal agency? The UN?

[eufo]

I'm sure there are traits that tend to correlate along racial lines, just as there are traits along gender lines, family lines, geographic lines, etc.

Is it right to use those very basic tendencies against a person? We do it all the time, but we do it in ways that are more covert.

Young people pay higher car insurance because they're, generally, more likely to cause an accident. Is this ageism? Certainly not all young people are a menace on the roadways. Is this fair? We give them a discount if they're a good student. So a young person who doesn't do well in school (or isn't going to school) will surely cause an accident, right? Obviously not, but insurance plays the odds... and we are bound to play those odds with them if we want to drive.

If it could be proven that white people have more accidents, would it be ok to charge them higher premiums? Clearly this is where we start drawing lines, but why? We can't help what race we were born as, but we also can't help what age we are, so it's not really only about our choices.

We start getting into territory where it's either ok or not ok to discriminate. God knows we are all discriminated against in a multitude of ways we'll never know about (thankfully), but this is human nature. We see patterns and we make judgements. It's how we operate and nearly impossible to avoid. Now... who chooses what patterns we get to see? Go see the world for yourself and make your own judgements. Don't rely solely on what you read on the internet, see on TV, or even what your friends and family tell you. Go meet people and form your own opinions about them. You will see patterns, like always, but they will be much closer to the truth than what is fed to you on a daily basis.

[Xan]

"Discrimination" is a word that badly needs rehabilitation. Not long ago, it was a very positive thing. The "discriminating consumer". A man of "discriminating tastes".

Without discriminating, you'd be unable to make any choices at all. You'd be a lump of jelly. Like that episode of Star Trek where Kirk's "bad side" got split off from his "good side". He couldn't make a decision.

The word "discrimination" has been lumped into and become indistinguishable from ILLEGAL discrimination. That's a shame.

[Mountaineer]

White Christians, expecting to go to heaven, should prepare for the shock of being a minority. It's probably best to practice loving all colors of people here on earth. If you don't like multi-ethnic existence, you're gonna hate heaven.

Hey Desert, no need for consternation,
it's all good in the new creation!

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

[Libertarian666]

If we propose to treat people differently because of the statistical central tendency of their group, then we'd have to restrict gun ownership among males, since most gun related murders are done by men. Also pickup trucks for young men would have to come with speed governors, since pickups driven by young men are disproportionately represented in severe crashes. And what group do multiracial people belong to? Do we use linear or nonlinear weighting to compute the affiliation? Who certifies the group assignment? A Federal agency? The UN?

Insurance companies treat people differently because of the statistical central tendency of their groups all the time.

So does everyone else, including Jesse Jackson: "There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery. Then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved.... After all we have been through. Just to think we can't walk down our own streets, how humiliating." (Remarks at a meeting of Operation PUSH in Chicago (27 November 1993). Quoted in "Crime: New Frontier - Jesse Jackson Calls It Top Civil-Rights Issue" by Mary A. Johnson, 29 November 1993, Chicago Sun-Times (ellipsis in original). Partially quoted in "In America; A Sea Change On Crime" by Bob Herbert, 12 December 1993, New York Times.)

Of course every citizen should have equal legal rights, but that is an entirely different matter.

[Michellebell]

I don't think there's anything wrong with recognizing trends amongst races. It's just biology. People in the same family often share similar traits. Therefore you cannot deny statistics when they show correlations between races and various traits. I think that as a country we have come very far in terms of how much progress we've made in this area, although lately it's like people have been wanting to cling to the notion that we are still very racist and that any statistical shortcomings are not due to choices but rather being victimized by bias. I've never seen people talk about race like they do these days. Growing up for me it was truly a non-issue. We always judged people by what they did. I'm not really a fan of pride in any direction. If black pride, Asian pride,etc is allowed, white pride should be fine too. Really it's unfair.

[ochotona]

Many of the White Pride people are not about just being proud of their heritage and wanting to share it, some of them want to start or be in a race war. Unfortunately, it makes people with bona fide good intentions look bad. I don't have an answer about how to unscramble that egg, any more than I have an answer for Black Lives Matter people how to not get infiltrated by Antifa or Occupy how to not be infiltrated by anarchists.

I guess it's the same advice we give to mainstream Muslims... don't let your house get taken over by extremists. Easy to say, hard to do. White Power people get hardened in prison, mostly.

[ochotona]

That's a great summary. There is nothing wrong with white pride ... but when white pride is a cover label for the terrorism we saw in VA, it's a problem. Some have summarized as follows: Black Lives Matter = black lives matter too. White Lives Matter = only white lives matter. Nobody here sees it that way, I'm guessing, but the rise of the alt-right (modern term for an ancient evil) has made it difficult to arrive at any other conclusion.

We see it the same way. Since the establishment of this country, the only lives that have mattered pretty much were White lives. Now that others want theirs to matter sometimes also causes some people to get upset. To me, it's just like people who can't stand that Israel holds a tiny little bit of turf (8000 square miles) which was most recently theirs. This other tribe consists of 1.8 billion people and vast areas of the globe, including most of the oil. Why are they obsessing about 8000 square miles? It's just tribal greed.

[Libertarian666]

Many of the White Pride people are not about just being proud of their heritage and wanting to share it, some of them want to start or be in a race war. Unfortunately, it makes people with bona fide good intentions look bad. I don't have an answer about how to unscramble that egg, any more than I have an answer for Black Lives Matter people how to not get infiltrated by Antifa or Occupy how to not be infiltrated by anarchists.

I guess it's the same advice we give to mainstream Muslims... don't let your house get taken over by extremists. Easy to say, hard to do. White Power people get hardened in prison, mostly.

That's a great summary. There is nothing wrong with white pride ... but when white pride is a cover label for the terrorism we saw in VA, it's a problem. Some have summarized as follows: Black Lives Matter = black lives matter too. White Lives Matter = only white lives matter. Nobody here sees it that way, I'm guessing, but the rise of the alt-right (modern term for an ancient evil) has made it difficult to arrive at any other conclusion.

Most crime is intra-racial: http://www.politifact.com/florida/artic ... k-murders/.

By far the majority of crime against blacks is by other blacks.

By far the majority of cross-racial crime is by blacks against whites.

A black man is about as likely to be struck by lightning as to be killed by a cop: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/4 ... tually-say

But none of that matters because race baiting is very popular among certain groups.

[ochotona]

Life on a typical Native American res is similarly sad. The fact is that white folk came in and did a great deal of evil. Now we are all living with the consequences. It's not OUR fault, because we weren't alive back then. But in the spirit of attempting to heal, I think we can all play a small part.

I drove through the res on the way to Jemez Hot Springs NM. Not pretty. Got some fry bread. My travel companions wondered about the origins of fry bread, I reminded them it was traditionally made from US Government flour rations after We The People took their lands away, and it fuels epidemic diabetes.

[doodle]

I might have mislabeled this thread, I'm more interested in Jared Taylor's views on whether a multicultural diverse nation is a net positive or advantageous in any way. Does this extreme diversity that we are heading to in the US where there is not a clear an overwhelming majority people portend future strife for our country? Although we would like to think we are colorblind and open minded regarding different cultures and traditions, are we just stating an ideal that has been browbeaten into us rather than our true sentiments regarding others different from ourselves? The majority if not all strife within nations happens between competing races, religions, ethnicities. Up until now in the united States we have had relative peace regarding this because of an overwhelmingly powerful white majority ....both in numbers and wealth. This is changing. As the numbers equalize between various groups of people will our diversity in this country begin to fracture us? What makes us think we're so different from every other country that has been torn apart by differing groups of people?

[doodle]

Life on a typical Native American res is similarly sad. The fact is that white folk came in and did a great deal of evil. Now we are all living with the consequences. It's not OUR fault, because we weren't alive back then. But in the spirit of attempting to heal, I think we can all play a small part.

I drove through the res on the way to Jemez Hot Springs NM. Not pretty. Got some fry bread. My travel companions wondered about the origins of fry bread, I reminded them it was traditionally made from US Government flour rations after We The People took their lands away, and it fuels epidemic diabetes.

If the native Americans had known that allowing the white man into country in large numbers would lead to their decimation do you think they would have changed their strategy in dealing with us newcomers? Isn't it precisely because of what we whites did to the native Americans that whites should now be worried about new and different immigrants streaming into America and eventually outnumbering the current white majority. Why should we suspect the newcomers to treat whites any differently than we treated the native Americans? After all, aren't whites responsible for exploiting everyone on the planet at some point in time? Perhaps it's time for retribution?

[Pointedstick]

There's definitely a bit of truth on the subject of biological differences between different kinds of people, but the subject always seems to reveal strong correlations between how much someone harps on it and how much of an asshole they are. The mere subject is a pretty good signpost that you're entering a swampy, toxic corner of the internet.

[ochotona]

What makes us think we're so different from every other country that has been torn apart by differing groups of people?

American exceptionalism. And my family is the case in point. My parents from China, my wife's Dad from Cuba, my wife's Mom a Daughter of the American Revolution, my step-mom from Poland. We're family.

My kids went to a large public high school with high standards, 1/3 white, 1/3 black, 1/3 Hispanic, dribs and drabs of Asians. She's in a EE program now.

We live in the most racially diverse metro area in the USA, Houston, and when Hurricane Harvey hit us, look at how we treated each other. Were you not inspired? I didn't hear about much looting or misbehavior. The 2nd Amendment helped.

Doodle, please get your ideas from the light, not from the darkness.