Teaching gender stereotypes

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Michellebell
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Teaching gender stereotypes

Post by Michellebell » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:44 pm

I was curious to know your thoughts on this topic.

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/the_ ... women.html

I have always believed that differences between the sexes were biological and although nurture does affect outcome, there is nothing oppressive about the natural differences that arise between men and women. Of course I am making generalizations, as there are many men who may be more feminine, and many women who are more masculine. But for the most part, most women are different from men, and I don't see anything wrong with acknowledging that.

In fact, I actually find it a bit insulting. In this article, it mentions how more women tend to be teachers. As a teacher myself, my reaction is a bit of a "so what?" As in, is there something wrong with choosing to be a teacher? I always knew I was smart enough to be whatever I wanted to be. My father is a physicist and my mother is a doctor. I did really well in math and science and was on the math league and physics league in high school. A big reason I chose to be a teacher was because I admired my teachers growing up and I knew I wanted to have children of my own. My mother spent four years of her residency not even living in the same state as me because her residency was so demanding after their divorce and my dad therefore got full custody of me. I am proud of her accomplishments, but at the same time I knew that I didn't want to go that route with my own family. Even as a teacher, I find it extremely hard to juggle both my career and motherhood but I do my best and am glad that I don't have a job that requires extensive travel or irregular hours and I have summers and all major holidays off. My oldest daughter even goes to my school so I can be more involved with her life that way.

My point is, I feel that all the talk about gender stereotypes is a bit insulting to some of the things that many women naturally prioritize in their lives. I don't see why if men and women are not exactly the same, they are bad. My two-year-old son is very different from my daughters, I can tell already. It's not because he has no exposure to things like dolls. With two older sisters, he's surrounded with them. We've also never discouraged him from playing with dolls, which he has at times. But that doesn't change the fact that my daughters can play with dolls for long stretches of time whereas my son might look at them for a bit and then decide he'd rather jump off the couch twenty times.
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Re: Teaching gender stereotypes

Post by Xan » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:55 pm

Well put, Michelle. Modern "feminism" is really "masculinism": it says that anything that isn't traditionally masculine is worthless, and that all women should be just like men. How awful would that be!

Speaking of awful there's this:
Drag queens are being brought into taxpayer-funded nursery schools to teach children about sexual diversity.

The Drag Queen Story Time (DGST) organisation, based in Bristol, was formed ‘to teach children about LGBT tolerance’.

Nursery bosses say the sessions are required for children to be able to ‘see people who defy rigid gender restrictions’ and grow up to combat hate crime.

They want to target two and three year olds to influence them early because children have not yet developed any discriminatory ‘isms’ at this age.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -LGBT.html
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Re: Teaching gender stereotypes

Post by eufo » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:30 pm

Michellebell wrote:My point is, I feel that all the talk about gender stereotypes is a bit insulting to some of the things that many women naturally prioritize in their lives. I don't see why if men and women are not exactly the same, they are bad.
I have some strong opinions on this topic, but suffice it to say... I'm with you on this one, Michellebell.
Don't agree with me too strongly or I'm going to change my mind
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Re: Teaching gender stereotypes

Post by Michellebell » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:40 pm

Xan wrote:Well put, Michelle. Modern "feminism" is really "masculinism": it says that anything that isn't traditionally masculine is worthless, and that all women should be just like men. How awful would that be!

Speaking of awful there's this:
Drag queens are being brought into taxpayer-funded nursery schools to teach children about sexual diversity.

The Drag Queen Story Time (DGST) organisation, based in Bristol, was formed ‘to teach children about LGBT tolerance’.

Nursery bosses say the sessions are required for children to be able to ‘see people who defy rigid gender restrictions’ and grow up to combat hate crime.

They want to target two and three year olds to influence them early because children have not yet developed any discriminatory ‘isms’ at this age.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -LGBT.html
Yes I've seen more and more stuff like this coming out. I feel like the middle ground is best here. I think my generation was the first where they really integrated everything. In my school we had coed gym, coed everything, whereas I believe in my parents' and grandparents' generations, they had separate classes like home economics and shop classes for girls vs. boys., or at least they were offered as electives that many students of opposite genders chose to take.

But liberals decided that was really harmful and did away with that, which I didn't really have much of an opinion about either way. But now they have gone REALLY far in the other direction. Not only are they no longer trying to mold children into gender stereotypes or cater to natural differences like they used to, but rather they are actively trying to mold them in the opposite direction, to get them to defy their nature.

I think that the LGBT community is targeting younger and younger children because they have been dismayed to realize that, despite their efforts, many of these "isms" are universally felt. That is probably the reason the vast majority of people would look at that image in the article you linked and find that literal man makes a very unattractive and pretty ridiculous-looking "woman." It's only human nature, but the left thinks or at least wants us to believe that those reactions are rather due to nurture.

At the same time I actually wonder if there is a much more malicious intent with some of these things. I could see these efforts appealing to many more caring liberal people who are just trying to be more tolerant, but at the same time it seems that some people are really trying to push the more and more bizarre on younger and younger children so that they are just plain-old confused or "tolerant" of just about anything. I saw another image of a drag queen reading to children in a library with huge demon-like horns too, and I was just like, woah. Why are they trying to make these very young children comfortable with such dark and/or disturbing costumes?

On another note, I also know that violence and darkness in movies seems to have been promoted gradually more and more pretty-much my whole life and I can't think of why people would be doing that other than to just get children more comfortable around violence.
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Re: Teaching gender stereotypes

Post by Michellebell » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:50 pm

eufo wrote:
Michellebell wrote:My point is, I feel that all the talk about gender stereotypes is a bit insulting to some of the things that many women naturally prioritize in their lives. I don't see why if men and women are not exactly the same, they are bad.
I have some strong opinions on this topic, but suffice it to say... I'm with you on this one, Michellebell.
I actually got into a couple discussions with feminists about these issues, and I was absolutely floored at how hateful they were! I've learned to be more careful about discussing these topics with women since then.
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Re: Teaching gender stereotypes

Post by eufo » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:40 pm

Michellebell wrote:
eufo wrote:
Michellebell wrote:My point is, I feel that all the talk about gender stereotypes is a bit insulting to some of the things that many women naturally prioritize in their lives. I don't see why if men and women are not exactly the same, they are bad.
I have some strong opinions on this topic, but suffice it to say... I'm with you on this one, Michellebell.
I actually got into a couple discussions with feminists about these issues, and I was absolutely floored at how hateful they were! I've learned to be more careful about discussing these topics with women since then.
It's a weird thing to me that a feminist can hate other women who are proud to be something other than HER idea of a woman. So much for female empowerment.
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Re: Teaching gender stereotypes

Post by boglerdude » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:20 pm

I played with dolls. GI Joes ;) And thats why I like war, unfortunately.

Kids will copy what they think is cool. Make cross dressing or w/e cool and thats what they'll do. Not that there's anything wrong with that ;)
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Re: Teaching gender stereotypes

Post by Kriegsspiel » Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:30 am

boglerdude wrote:Kids will copy what they think is cool. Make cross dressing or w/e cool and thats what they'll do. Not that there's anything wrong with that ;)
Women wearing pants isn't as bad as everyone thought it would be.
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Re: Teaching gender stereotypes

Post by WiseOne » Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:05 am

Michellebell wrote:I actually got into a couple discussions with feminists about these issues, and I was absolutely floored at how hateful they were! I've learned to be more careful about discussing these topics with women since then.
Good for you for holding your ground, Michelle. However, do be careful about categorizing people this way (keeping in mind I have no idea what was actually said).

I consider myself to be a feminist in that I have zero tolerance for any attempt to demean or dismiss women based on their gender. However I think that rarely happens now, with one very important exception (below). Mostly it's about dealing with the personality differences between men and women in professional situations. Men tend to be overbearing and overconfident, and women tend to be afraid to speak up. There's nothing that feminism has to offer that can effectively deal with this, except for heavy-handed and (IMHO) counterproductive measures like giving women special preference for things like promotions. Instead, I've simply learned how to speak up and give effective presentations. There was a recent meeting with women faculty and residents that was supposed to be one of those share and tell sessions, and every woman faculty member said the same thing.

The exception is the Catholic church's continued insistence on limiting the priesthood to celibate men - for which they are paying a heavy price, and it's well deserved. I found it very easy to walk a couple blocks in the other direction to the Episcopalian church.
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Re: Teaching gender stereotypes

Post by Xan » Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:18 am

WiseOne wrote:The exception is the Catholic church's continued insistence on limiting the priesthood to celibate men - for which they are paying a heavy price, and it's well deserved. I found it very easy to walk a couple blocks in the other direction to the Episcopalian church.
One "solution" is the Episcopal one, where you just don't care about what the Bible actually says or anything about Church history, in favor of what "feels right" today. A better one is to come be Lutheran: ALL believers are priests. Pastors are exclusively men as God ordained.

Now, on celibacy: that's what the Catholics call a "discipline". That is something that could be changed. It became a requirement somewhere around 1000. Ordaining women is something that the church does not have the authority to change.
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Re: Teaching gender stereotypes

Post by Michellebell » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:40 am

WiseOne wrote:
Michellebell wrote:I actually got into a couple discussions with feminists about these issues, and I was absolutely floored at how hateful they were! I've learned to be more careful about discussing these topics with women since then.
Good for you for holding your ground, Michelle. However, do be careful about categorizing people this way (keeping in mind I have no idea what was actually said).

I consider myself to be a feminist in that I have zero tolerance for any attempt to demean or dismiss women based on their gender. However I think that rarely happens now, with one very important exception (below). Mostly it's about dealing with the personality differences between men and women in professional situations. Men tend to be overbearing and overconfident, and women tend to be afraid to speak up. There's nothing that feminism has to offer that can effectively deal with this, except for heavy-handed and (IMHO) counterproductive measures like giving women special preference for things like promotions. Instead, I've simply learned how to speak up and give effective presentations. There was a recent meeting with women faculty and residents that was supposed to be one of those share and tell sessions, and every woman faculty member said the same thing.

The exception is the Catholic church's continued insistence on limiting the priesthood to celibate men - for which they are paying a heavy price, and it's well deserved. I found it very easy to walk a couple blocks in the other direction to the Episcopalian church.
Last edited by Michellebell on Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Teaching gender stereotypes

Post by Michellebell » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:55 am

Michellebell wrote:
WiseOne wrote:
Michellebell wrote:I actually got into a couple discussions with feminists about these issues, and I was absolutely floored at how hateful they were! I've learned to be more careful about discussing these topics with women since then.
Good for you for holding your ground, Michelle. However, do be careful about categorizing people this way (keeping in mind I have no idea what was actually said).

I consider myself to be a feminist in that I have zero tolerance for any attempt to demean or dismiss women based on their gender. However I think that rarely happens now, with one very important exception (below). Mostly it's about dealing with the personality differences between men and women in professional situations. Men tend to be overbearing and overconfident, and women tend to be afraid to speak up. There's nothing that feminism has to offer that can effectively deal with this, except for heavy-handed and (IMHO) counterproductive measures like giving women special preference for things like promotions. Instead, I've simply learned how to speak up and give effective presentations. There was a recent meeting with women faculty and residents that was supposed to be one of those share and tell sessions, and every woman faculty member said the same thing.

The exception is the Catholic church's continued insistence on limiting the priesthood to celibate men - for which they are paying a heavy price, and it's well deserved. I found it very easy to walk a couple blocks in the other direction to the Episcopalian church.
Yes I probably should have clarified my meaning better. There are different types of feminists. I don't call myself a feminist, mainly because I don't like what the movement represents these days. Some modern feminists that I've heard of, and a couple I've had discussions with online, were saying things that made little sense economically, often seemed to place unnecessary blame, and seemed to have the goal of getting as many young women as possible to just hate and boycott men.

Also, I've spoken with some who are convinced that the only reason women behave differently from men is because of an oppressive society and nothing to do with nature. I disagree with that. You also wouldn't see me doing things like wearing a p*ssy hat and marching in Washington. So no, I don't consider myself a feminist because I don't want to be associated with that group of people.

I believe women and men should be treated respectfully and some of the things modern feminists pursue are not goals that I share. What's really interesting to me is that many of these women are so angry at how women are treated in the United States (where I think we are treated very fairly and given all the same opportunities as men), yet they are basically silent about the very real oppression of women in other countries.

Also, if I were alive many years ago in the U.S., I might have considered myself a feminist.
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Re: Teaching gender stereotypes

Post by WiseOne » Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:45 am

Xan wrote:
WiseOne wrote:Ordaining women is something that the church does not have the authority to change.
Could you explain that? Many Christian denominations have done exactly this. In the Catholic church it would require action from the Pope and possibly the Vatican council, but it is not by any means impossible. The last time this was addressed, Pope John Paul stated his belief that there were no female apostles, therefore... etc. However, if you read carefully it's quite apparent that Mary Magdelene was as much of an apostle as any of the 12. I bet this is the reason she was later labeled as a prostitute (and nothing to do with the da Vinci code theory). Step 1 is for the church to address this.

http://www.uscatholic.org/articles/2008 ... lene-27585

As far as feminism: I agree with Michelle that it's been badly distorted, just like all the other civil rights issues, but that doesn't mean we have to back off completely. Anyway sorry for derailing the thread a bit, but I do think the Catholic church's attitude is just about the last real challenge to equal rights that we have. As far as I'm concerned, on other fronts the goals have been achieved. Hurrah!
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Re: Teaching gender stereotypes

Post by Michellebell » Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:33 am

WiseOne wrote:
Xan wrote:
WiseOne wrote:Ordaining women is something that the church does not have the authority to change.
Could you explain that? Many Christian denominations have done exactly this. In the Catholic church it would require action from the Pope and possibly the Vatican council, but it is not by any means impossible. The last time this was addressed, Pope John Paul stated his belief that there were no female apostles, therefore... etc. However, if you read carefully it's quite apparent that Mary Magdelene was as much of an apostle as any of the 12. I bet this is the reason she was later labeled as a prostitute (and nothing to do with the da Vinci code theory). Step 1 is for the church to address this.

http://www.uscatholic.org/articles/2008 ... lene-27585

As far as feminism: I agree with Michelle that it's been badly distorted, just like all the other civil rights issues, but that doesn't mean we have to back off completely. Anyway sorry for derailing the thread a bit, but I do think the Catholic church's attitude is just about the last real challenge to equal rights that we have. As far as I'm concerned, on other fronts the goals have been achieved. Hurrah!
That's interesting, WiseOne. I'm not Catholic but I don't think feminists should try to impose their attitudes on the church. I don't personally agree with several of the practices of Catholics but I think that their traditions should be left alone and completely up to them to decide. Of course the exception I make and probably anyone makes regarding religious freedom is if people are practicing things that are outright illegal. But otherwise, I don't think any outside social movement should interfere.
It’s not like people are forced in this country to adhere to any religion so why should feminist ideology have any say in Catholic ideology?
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Re: Teaching gender stereotypes

Post by Ad Orientem » Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:40 am

Sorry, but I have a hard time taking seriously an ideology that insists gender preference, i.e. sexual orientation is inherited but gender is something we can choose. Political correctness has reached the point where it's difficult to tell what is and is not satire.
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Re: Teaching gender stereotypes

Post by Ad Orientem » Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:51 am

Re female ordination...

I grew up Catholic before converting to Orthodoxy so I am going to take a swing at this. The Pope can change the discipline of the church but not its doctrine. Discipline are the man made rules set up by the church for (presumably) good and practical reasons. This might cover things like the rules for fasting and abstinence which have changed quite drastically. However doctrine, which is to say divine truths or laws that are irreformable cannot be altered by anyone, including the Pope. The Catholic Church has consistently taught that by divine ordinance the sacrament of Holy Orders is reserved to men alone and that it is impossible to validly ordain women. On this point the Orthodox Church is in full agreement. The Pope can no more alter this truth than he can add or subtract from the Ten Commandments.
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Re: Teaching gender stereotypes

Post by farjean2 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:51 pm

Ad Orientem wrote:Re female ordination...

I grew up Catholic before converting to Orthodoxy so I am going to take a swing at this. The Pope can change the discipline of the church but not its doctrine. Discipline are the man made rules set up by the church for (presumably) good and practical reasons. This might cover things like the rules for fasting and abstinence which have changed quite drastically. However doctrine, which is to say divine truths or laws that are irreformable cannot be altered by anyone, including the Pope. The Catholic Church has consistently taught that by divine ordinance the sacrament of Holy Orders is reserved to men alone and that it is impossible to validly ordain women. On this point the Orthodox Church is in full agreement. The Pope can no more alter this truth than he can add or subtract from the Ten Commandments.
I was reading a book by Bart Ehrman not long ago, I forget which one, but it was interesting to learn that within the field of unbiased New Testament scholarship, it is generally believed that none of the verses in Paul's letters that are typically used to denigrate the role of women are authentic. Those that appear in his authentic letters are believed to be later interpolations, and in some cases, like 1 and 2 Timothy, the entire book is considered a forgery and not written by Paul at all. (and that triggers my memory that the book was probably "Forged").
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Re: Teaching gender stereotypes

Post by farjean2 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:46 pm

Desert wrote:
farjean2 wrote:
Ad Orientem wrote:Re female ordination...

I grew up Catholic before converting to Orthodoxy so I am going to take a swing at this. The Pope can change the discipline of the church but not its doctrine. Discipline are the man made rules set up by the church for (presumably) good and practical reasons. This might cover things like the rules for fasting and abstinence which have changed quite drastically. However doctrine, which is to say divine truths or laws that are irreformable cannot be altered by anyone, including the Pope. The Catholic Church has consistently taught that by divine ordinance the sacrament of Holy Orders is reserved to men alone and that it is impossible to validly ordain women. On this point the Orthodox Church is in full agreement. The Pope can no more alter this truth than he can add or subtract from the Ten Commandments.
I was reading a book by Bart Ehrman not long ago, I forget which one, but it was interesting to learn that within the field of unbiased New Testament scholarship, it is generally believed that none of the verses in Paul's letters that are typically used to denigrate the role of women are authentic. Those that appear in his authentic letters are believed to be later interpolations, and in some cases, like 1 and 2 Timothy, the entire book is considered a forgery and not written by Paul at all. (and that triggers my memory that the book was probably "Forged").
I love how you put Ehrman in the same paragraph with "unbiased scholarship." Surely you can see he's a very angry, reactive sort, no? Not that there is anything wrong with that, but please disabuse yourself of the "unbiased" myth.
I take it you don't like him very much but I've never actually seen him get angry. In debates he seems like a pleasant enough person.

As far as being "unbiased" I generally use that term to describe a scholar who works in an academic environment in which he won't be fired and lose his paycheck if he fails to tow the party line.
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Re: Teaching gender stereotypes

Post by farjean2 » Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:23 pm

Desert wrote:
farjean2 wrote:
Desert wrote:
I love how you put Ehrman in the same paragraph with "unbiased scholarship." Surely you can see he's a very angry, reactive sort, no? Not that there is anything wrong with that, but please disabuse yourself of the "unbiased" myth.
I take it you don't like him very much but I've never actually seen him get angry. In debates he seems like a pleasant enough person.

As far as being "unbiased" I generally use that term to describe a scholar who works in an academic environment in which he won't be fired and lose his paycheck if he fails to tow the party line.
I would generally class the leading "new" atheists as follows:
1. Hitchens (deceased): funny, sarcastic, entertaining
2. Harris: Most calm, logical guy; I really like Sam Harris, even though I no longer agree with him
3. Ehrman: Obviously put off by religion; classic case of exiting religion because of a sin/guilt/anger cycle; obvious agenda, supported by typical liberal religion departments in major U's.
4. DeGrasse Tyson: Big entertainer. Probably the silliest of all new atheists. Proclaiming science fiction as fact, and as refutation of religious beliefs. Also very entertaining, but the most cartoonish of all new atheists.

In general, it's important to accept the bias of all such folks. If you really want to learn from a new atheist, I'd recommend Harris. Ehrman and Tyson are dripping with bias.
Probably better leave off with this before Xan moves it to the religion thread but do you know what Ehrman's sin was that started the cycle? I've heard his testimony of how he first came to realize the Bible wasn't inerrant as he was taught at Moody Bible Institute, then tried liberal Christianity for a while, before realizing this too had its own inconsistencies and so became an agnostic. So now I know he was lying and it really all started with some kind of sin. I'm a member of his website, the proceeds of which he gives to charity, so I'm able to ask him questions. Maybe I should ask him what secret he is hiding that Desert knows about.

Generally speaking I'm interested in facts and evidence and it matters not what a person's biases are.
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Re: Teaching gender stereotypes

Post by WiseOne » Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:46 pm

Ad Orientem wrote:Sorry, but I have a hard time taking seriously an ideology that insists gender preference, i.e. sexual orientation is inherited but gender is something we can choose. Political correctness has reached the point where it's difficult to tell what is and is not satire.
This is the best description of the "LGTBQIAPK" insanity I have ever seen. Kudos for that one, Ad. (I don't buy your other thesis though.)

Contrast this with the basis for today's version of feminism: it sucks to be female and you have no choice about it if you are. Hey people, there's an easy solution now if you really want to fix the problem.

I am perfectly content to remain female, and to attend the church a few blocks south instead of the one a few blocks north.
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