Go Israel, Go!

[Pointedstick]

And how does this equation change once Iran puts their first nuclear warhead on a missile aimed at Tel Aviv?

I doubt it changes very much at all, given that everyone with half a brain knows that Israel's already got a dozen nuclear missiles aimed at Tehran and has for decades.

[dualstow]

Good stuff here, guys:

The audio file above the text is about a 15-minute listen and is the same as the written text.
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why- ... ize-israel

Very interesting take on human shields.

[Reub]

"The truth is we are all living in Israel. It's just that some of us haven't realized it yet."

[Pointedstick]

Good stuff here, guys:

The audio file above the text is about a 15-minute listen and is the same as the written text.
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why- ... ize-israel

Very interesting take on human shields.

That's some powerful shit. Especially coming from an atheist activist.

And, I hesitate to admit it, but it stirs that buried-deep part of me that feels kind of like the Republicans have been right all along about this whole "Islamofascism" thing. Because the more I learn about the middle east, the more I feel like there really is this vast sea of of violent religious intolerance intent on murdering almost everyone, and what we've seen so far represents the volcanoes, and the untold billions of tons of magma bubbling below the surface is the core of socio-political support for this insane ideology.

It makes me feel like The Iraq war was a terrible mistake because it wasn't the Iran war--they're clearly the ringleaders of the three-ring oppression-fest that constitutes the modern middle east. It makes me happy that I live thousands of miles away from those nutcases. And it makes me realize that if they were next door in Arizona, I'd want to fight their insanity with every ounce of my strength so that my child and his children could live without the specter of religious terrorism stifling their lives; so they could go about their lives like normal rational people the way every human being should have the opportunity to do without worrying that it would upset the clerics, or that the local religious militia would bomb into town and murder all the teachers, or rape all the girls, or blow up hospitals, or any of the other mind-boggling things that they regularly do, increasingly in Africa these days.

Man, what a downer. Is having a kid supposed to make you paranoid and support killing crazy murderous foreign religious zealots?

[Mountaineer]

These articles may be of interest.

http://thefederalist.com/2014/07/29/isr ... rror-show/

http://thefederalist.com/2014/07/29/ser ... rry-doing/

... Mountaineer

[dualstow]

Man, what a downer. Is having a kid supposed to make you paranoid and support killing crazy murderous foreign religious zealots?

I am often told that, at times, having a kid makes you want to kill kids. Your own kids. So, I think anything goes. 
And naturally, that mother/fatherly instinct to protect and defend that you're talking about is an ancient and strong one.

[Benko]

the more I learn about the middle east, the more I feel like there really is this vast sea of of violent religious intolerance intent on murdering almost everyone, and what we've seen so far represents the volcanoes, and the untold billions of tons of magma bubbling below the surface is the core of socio-political support for this insane ideology.

+1.  Not your imagination. 

Religion of Peace? Islam's War against the World  Gregory Davis.

[dualstow]

These articles may be of interest.

http://thefederalist.com/2014/07/29/isr ... rror-show/

http://thefederalist.com/2014/07/29/ser ... rry-doing/

... Mountaineer

I just read the 2nd one, "What is John Kerry Doing?". Hard to disagree with that.

[barrett]

Dualstow, your Sam Harris post (http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why- ... ize-israel) was terrific. I just got around to giving it a read today. And PS's follow up comments were spot on if more than little bit sobering.

I can't quite get behind the title of this thread though. To me it feels more like "What else are we supposed to do?" There are no winners in The Middle East, it would seem... only those that come off less bad and that is sad.

[dualstow]

Thanks! It was sent to me by a European friend -- let's say "pen pal" to use a relic from the past -- who shares my irreligiosity.
I feel a little funny about the thread title, too, but hey- it got me to look! :- )
Yes, PS's comments have been very insightful. I've been reading Lozowick's Right To Exist as of a few days ago, and it dovetails with what PS has had to say.

[moda0306]

My question is...

Would Muslims be anywhere near as anti-Jew if Israelis weren't seen as conquering their land.  Would they be anywhere near as anti-American if we didn't plant bases in the Middle East and support Israel?

I'm not saying there isn't some backwards sh!t over there... But I get the impression that this is about a territorial dispute more so than wanting to convert 7 billion inhabitants of earth to Islam.

And they're wrong in their extreme opinion of Israelis.  But there's a difference between irrationally feeling like you've been conquered and wanting a blood-thirsty response, and wanting a blood-thirsty conquering if the world... Just because.

[dualstow]

My question is..

Would Muslims be anywhere near as anti-Jew(ish) if Israelis weren't seen as conquering their land.  Would they be anywhere near as anti-American if we didn't plant bases in the Middle East and support Israel?

For way too many Arabs and Muslims, the answers are yes and yes.

[Benko]

My question is..

Would Muslims be anywhere near as anti-Jew(ish) if Israelis weren't seen as conquering their land.  Would they be anywhere near as anti-American if we didn't plant bases in the Middle East and support Israel?

For way too many Arabs and Muslims, the answers are yes and yes.

+ 1.  You don't need to believe us, there is a long history i.e. before Israel was created to examine.

[Jan Van]

For a slightly different take on things:

Miko Peled Seattle. Oct. 1, 2012: Miko Peled, the general's son

[Pointedstick]

For a slightly different take on things:

Miko Peled Seattle. Oct. 1, 2012: Miko Peled, the general's son

This Peled guy thinks a one-state solution is the only way. Can anybody cite an example where integrating two ethnic and cultural groups that hate one another under the umbrella of one government has not led to, shell we say, severe problems?

This guy strikes me as a naive, unrealistic boob. For example, he says, "For the good of both nations, the Separation Wall must come down, the Israeli control over the lives of Palestinians must be defied so that a secular democracy where all Israelis and Palestinian live as equals be established in our shared homeland."

Can anyone point me to an example of a secular democracy that is full of Arab Muslims? Probably not, because they don't exist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy ... iddle_East

If, as Peled suggests, Israel's goal is "ethic cleansing" or "the destruction of the Palestinian people," they must be really bad at it. How could they be failing so badly at exterminating a people they have subjugated and walled off? How is it that their population has more than doubled in the last 50 years? Man, genocide must be harder than it looks.

[Reub]

Israel could easily wipe out every person in Gaza in days if they wanted to. But they don't want to. What they want is to live in peace but they are surrounded by violent, vicious, amoral people who use dead women and children as photo ops and tactical weapons and have no consciences. These types are spreading throughout the world and are coming to a place near you very soon.

[Mountaineer]

Israel could easily wipe out every person in Gaza in days if they wanted to. But they don't want to. What they want is to live in peace but they are surrounded by violent, vicious, amoral people who use dead women and children as photo ops and tactical weapons and have no consciences. These types are spreading throughout the world and are coming to a place near you very soon.

Viva la Islamic Republic of France!  (Ever wonder why dear follower is enamored with France?)

... Mountaineer

[dualstow]

I learned about Peled during the first week of this Gaza conflict after browsing a lot of forums and comment sections beneath articles (I know, I know. Not exactly time well spent!) He is an interesting character for sure, and I am glad that Israeli pacifists exist. In the U.S., we have the likes of Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein, and I suppose I am glad that they exist, too, but that doesn't mean I agree with their logic, or lack thereof.

I am more impressed with Miko Peled's father, a true warrior turned pacifist.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mattityahu_Peled
Miko may have served in the military, but he was really born into his worldview even if he changed his mind once or twice.

I simply can't respect Miko's or anyone's use of the word genocide in the context of Gaza.
Speaking of that, I'm reading Lozowick's section on Jenin. Sure is different from the mass media's take on it. Then again, we all thought the case of Mohammed al-Durrah was something special until getting the facts straight long afterwards.

[Ad Orientem]

I have been a frequent critic of Israeli policy in many areas, but I can't fault them here. Those tunnels are a loaded gun pointed at their population by a group that by its own declaration sees peace coming only from the destruction of Israel and the extermination of its population (or at least the Jews). Of course none of that makes it our business, but I definitely understand and am sympathetic to Israel's perspective here.

Sometimes in life there is just nothing quite like a good old fashioned @$$ whooping to help someone get a firmer grip on the rules of polite society.

[dualstow]

Sometimes in life there is just nothing quite like a good old fashioned @$$ whooping to help someone get a firmer grip on the rules of polite society.

I only wish it could be a literal ass whooping and nothing more. What these kids are caught up in...they're going to grow up to be an army of Israel haters and I can't blame them either. (The ignorami in the West I can blame).

[dualstow]

At a prior job, I worked with an excellent salesperson from the UK.  He would often say:  "France is a beautiful country, spoiled only by its inhabitants." 

Politically incorrect, I know.  But still funny.  And like most stereotypes, it probably contains at least a bit of truth.

Sounds like my Dad. My family lived in France in the early 70s. I'm too young to remember, but my folks had a lot of negative experiences, lamenting that they loved French food, art, etc, but had something of a problem with the French. ;-) It was not the case at all living in other countries, and not aways the case with French overseas.

[Reub]

Hamas violated the 72 hour cease fire orchestrated by the U.S. this morning within minutes of it taking effect. They used a suicide bomber and a tunnel to kill Israeli troops who were honoring the terms of the cease fire and took one hostage. This was accompanied by the launching of scores of rockets and mortar shells by Hamas into Israel. The U.S. condemned the violation by Hamas as "barbaric."

[dualstow]

EDIT: Whoops, you did mention a hostage.
And there was a real kidnapping this time, right? Not good.

[Pointedstick]

This is so classic. The Israelis technically stopped firing, but continued to demolish tunnels in Gaza. Absolutely nothing legally wrong with that as per the terms of the cease-fire, but still kind of a dick move, akin to Hamas fighters using the cease-fire to safely move rockets from storage into mosques and schools (which for all I know, they were also doing). Hamas is claiming that the continuing tunnel-demolition activities are what provoked the suicide bombing, kidnapping, and firing rockets at civilians. It's fairly obvious that they were looking for any excuse at all to keep shooting. Why they even agreed to a cease-fire in the first place isn't totally clear to me.

[dualstow]

This is so classic. The Israelis ...continued to demolish tunnels in Gaza.
... akin to Hamas fighters using the cease-fire to safely move rockets from storage into mosques and schools (which for all I know, they were also doing).
...
Why they even agreed to a cease-fire in the first place isn't totally clear to me.

Perhaps to destroy tunnels / and / move rockets out of storage?