Figuring Out Religion

[MediumTex]

Mountaineer,

I feel like I've been doing nothing but throwing stones, so let me shift gears.

Before you were a believer, what was it that made you want to become a believer, or what made you interested in religion at all?  I think you addressed this earlier in the discussion, but we are like 122 pages into this, so I don't know where to look.

[screwtape]

3. Jesus actually said this but he didn’t actually mean what he actually said. Let’s make up some stories to explain
  what he really meant -- as if we could know the mind of god.

8. Jesus actually said this and meant what he said but his cohorts did not understand what he said until they looked back after Jesus was resurrected and had their eyes opened by .......  Hmmmm, that sounds like something I've read somewhere, hmmmm. 

Well, your #8 still sounds like #3 to me. I think my explanation is the one that finally makes all of the eschatological verses in the Bible start to make sense without the need for convoluted explanations of why verses aren't meant to be taken literally. Obviously we see things differently and probably should just leave it at that.

[MediumTex]

I find myself in the conflicted position of knowing that I would love to have Mountaineer's sense of certainty about the nature of the universe and our place in it, but I don't know how to make myself believe things that don't make any sense to me as a whole.

Contrary to what some of my posts might suggest, I am not hostile to the Christian faith at all; it just all fell apart in my mind at some point and I don't know how to put it back together.  I wouldn't know where to start.  It would be like recreating a sincere belief in Santa Claus after someone spilled the beans about what was really going on there.

I might be able to rationalize the Santa Claus situation with the idea that Santa Claus clearly exists as a symbol and that symbol is animated at key moments by Santa's innumerable "helpers," but as far as the fat jolly dude landing his sleigh on your roof if you were good during the year...I think that once that goes "poof" it can never come back in the same innocent and magical way that it was when you first learned about Christmas.

[screwtape]

I find myself in the conflicted position of knowing that I would love to have Mountaineer's sense of certainty about the nature of the universe and our place in it, but I don't know how to make myself believe things that don't make any sense to me as a whole.

Contrary to what some of my posts might suggest, I am not hostile to the Christian faith at all; it just all fell apart in my mind at some point and I don't know how to put it back together.  I wouldn't know where to start.  It would be like recreating a sincere belief in Santa Claus after someone spilled the beans about what was really going on there.

I might be able to rationalize the Santa Claus situation with the idea that Santa Claus clearly exists as a symbol and that symbol is animated at key moments by Santa's innumerable "helpers," but as far as the fat jolly dude landing his sleigh on your roof if you were good during the year...I think that once that goes "poof" it can never come back in the same innocent and magical way that it was when you first learned about Christmas.

I find that I have to resist the urge to pray when I encounter especially stressful situations. I would be hard pressed to tell you any time that ever did any good when I was a believer, aside from calming my own anxiety, but it's just some kind of habit that's hard to shake. There is either some kind of deity in control of the universe who really cares about you, or else there is a void and you are on your own. Sometimes I wonder how different my life would have been if I had accepted the latter much earlier and not programmed myself the way I did.

[MachineGhost]

7. Jesus wasn’t a very good prophet. This is the response of unbelievers.

Anyone ever did a side-by-side comparison of Jesus and Mohammed?

[MachineGhost]

How about homosexuals?  Talk about an underdog!  They went from being subject to the death penalty because of their sexual preference in the Old Testament to going to Hell to burn for eternity in the New Testament.

I didn't know Jews were against homosexuals.  I thought it was just a Christian thang.  Are modern Jews accepting, or only non-Orthodox?

But, I bet it was probably for the same reason Jews are against eating pork, i.e. primitive superstition about disease transmission.

[MachineGhost]

There is either some kind of deity in control of the universe who really cares about you, or else there is a void and you are on your own. Sometimes I wonder how different my life would have been if I had accepted the latter much earlier and not programmed myself the way I did.

That seems like an extremist either/or dialectic.  Haven't you learned from life experience that moderation is always the answer?

I wonder why so many people are so obsessed with whether or not a diety exists?  Odds from the historical evidence is it is not personally wasting its time with the cosmological improbability of any one single individual.

Mountaineer did say it was revelation, though.  Certain people are touched by "higher powers" enough to believe in their own subjective religious dogma.  Everything, even the paranormal, is filtered through that lens.

[Mountaineer]

I find myself in the conflicted position of knowing that I would love to have Mountaineer's sense of certainty about the nature of the universe and our place in it, but I don't know how to make myself believe things that don't make any sense to me as a whole.

Contrary to what some of my posts might suggest, I am not hostile to the Christian faith at all; it just all fell apart in my mind at some point and I don't know how to put it back together.  I wouldn't know where to start.  It would be like recreating a sincere belief in Santa Claus after someone spilled the beans about what was really going on there.

I might be able to rationalize the Santa Claus situation with the idea that Santa Claus clearly exists as a symbol and that symbol is animated at key moments by Santa's innumerable "helpers," but as far as the fat jolly dude landing his sleigh on your roof if you were good during the year...I think that once that goes "poof" it can never come back in the same innocent and magical way that it was when you first learned about Christmas.

MT,
In all seriousness, you may feel free to cast all the stones you wish at anything I write.  It does not upset me, I've thrown many stones myself (from a Biblical point of view Paul was pretty bad throwing actual stones and worse before God got his attention, and look how God ended up using him to spread Christianity to the world).  I tend to think of those who question, those who doubt, and those who seek will eventually be found by God.  In my opinion, it is those who say nothing at all that are most likely the lost ones.  Anyway,  to address your statement (I bolded it above), perhaps this post I made to address Pointedstick on May 29 might help.  Basically, my suggestion is go hear the Word proclaimed faithfully and accurately, attend Bible studies with preferably a Seminary trained theologian present to address the tough questions, share your every doubt, ask every question you can think of, poke all the holes you can, invest your time for a while and do a lot of Scriptural study to make sure the Pastor is not giving you a "twisted" answer that some Pastors are prone to do in the name of making you feel good (mainly many of the TV types).  I am partial to LCMS Pastors as being a great source (because of my varied experiences with other denominations and because the two LCMS Seminaries have a world class reputation), but even in that tradition, there are some I would prefer above others - personally, I would stay away from the happy clappy contemporary type services and their Pastors as the message will not have staying power after the entertainment wears off.  Stay away from denominations that have catered to "world secualr values" instead of traditional Scriptural values.  Secular values may be fine for secular activities, but for theology stick to orthodoxy, do not succumb to heterodoxy teachings.  And, run away quickly from Pastors who tell you what you have to do for God or anyone else or how to live your life - Christianity is not primarily a check list of how to act or how to judge others; find a Pastor who preaches about what Jesus did for you - really hearing that message of what Jesus did for you in spite of all your flaws is incredibly freeing.  So freeing in fact that you will want to help others and help others be as free as you.  Find a strong liturgical congregation - then, even if the Pastor has a bad day, the ligurgy carrys the Gospel message to your ears.  I would also pick a congregation that has a Pastor between 35 and 45 years old if possible.  Here is the longer answer that may be useful to you if you have not already read it.  I will do my best to address any specific questions you have in the meantime. 

http://gyroscopicinvesting.com/forum/ot ... #msg120394

... Mountaineer

[Xan]

Haven't you learned from life experience that moderation is always the answer? [emphasis added]

I think you just broke the irony meter...

[Mountaineer]

Mountaineer,

I feel like I've been doing nothing but throwing stones, so let me shift gears.

Before you were a believer, what was it that made you want to become a believer, or what made you interested in religion at all?  I think you addressed this earlier in the discussion, but we are like 122 pages into this, so I don't know where to look.

I'll give you a really short answer to your question - then if you want more or have followup questions, I'll do my best to answer.

I was raised a Christian - Methodist.  When I was about 17 my Mom told me I was old enough to decide for myself about church.  I stopped going - too many hypocrites    About 20 years later, I lost a bet with my wife - she wanted me to start attending church a bet payment.  I did.  Over several years, I started to realize what church was really about.  I like to learn.  Started reading the Bible.  As a result of job transfers and other situations, I attended perhaps 8 or so different denominations/traditions.  I decided I wanted to get more spiritually knowledgable when I retired.  I read a lot, I attend several classes at an adult education facility affiliated with the local university.  About 15 years ago we joined an ELCA congregation - Pastor was good, then came the 2009 debacle in the ELCA (head Bishop said Scripture was no longer relevant [among other things] - if a church body really believes that, it is in my opinion no longer a Christian church).  We left.  We found an LCMS congregation - Excellent Pastor, warm welcoming congregation - zero judgementalism.  I mentioned I like to learn - I started attending a couple of Bible studies routinely, read an enormous about of theology oriented books, about one hundred, plus articles and church related forums.  The more I learned, the more I realized theology is a bottomless pit.  I likely would never become bored. The more I learned, the more I realized most, if not all, my previous questions and doubts were because I did not really understand how Scripture was a cohesive whole, cohesive almost beyond belief, and the central key important message was Jesus.  However, all that said, I think I am where I am because that is exactly what God wanted - I did a lot of kicking and screaming along the way in resistance.  He is the Creator, I am the creature.  Things go awfully awry when we get that backwards.  I have come to realize that God is in charge of everything, always was and always will be, and wants every person to let him be their God with all that implies - a free gift for all; his Word tells us how to do it - his Word is the roadmap as well as the actual locations depicted.  His Word is where he promised it to be - in the baptismal water, in the bread and wine, and in the Pastors voice proclaiming the Word, and recorded in the Scriptures.  Unfortunately, some refuse the gift.

... Mountaineer

[Greg]

That's some nice writing you've got there Mountaineer. Keep it up.

I like thinking about God wanting a relationship with his children and the idea of free-will. If God made himself so obvious and made it with absolute clarity that we'd go to hell if we didn't like him, we would just be friends with him just to avoid bad stuff.

That's also where I think more religions come in too. If God fully revealed himself, all religions would collapse into nothing. It would just be believe in God and spend eternity with him, or go to hell. I'm not sure how many people would voluntarily go to hell.

Instead, God has a bit more subtlety, and that this helps to separate those that really want to have a relationship and be closer to God versus others who would just want to be friends with him to get out of hell.

Or in a simple way: God wants you to be his friend because you both like each other, not because God has some cool toys and that you'll only be able to play with them if you agree to be his friend.

[moda0306]

Greg,

You don't think Buddhists and Muslims around the world aren't trying to be closer to God?  It's one thing to make yourself vague. It's another thing to make yourself so vague that there are many different people coming to vastly different views of what God could be, and those who spend their whole lives trying way harder than most of us to find God get it wrong, the get a ticket to eternity in hell.

I understand it being vague, but the lack of clarity plus the punishment for getting it wrong within certain interpretations of Christianity is pretty harsh.

[barrett]

I would also add that the intellectual who believes has a lot of sunk cost in terms of time and mental effort. It's really hard for them to let go without feeling as if they have wasted a lot of effort.

+100.  When you got your entire life, friends, family and grandchildren completely invested into a religion, that's a lot of responsibility that no one would want to have to face up to.  But hey, it could have been worse!  'coulda been a Jehovah Witness, Amish, Seventh Day Adventist, Mormon, Scientologist or even a RIFFF.  Its fine if people want to believe in paranormal mysticism as an excuse to follow a ministry of morality; its what that ministry is composed of that should be viewed with a verrry critical and jaundiced eye.  Christianity is relatively tame and neutered nowadays; so much that it's not really a threat to intellectualism anymore.  <snip>

I'm behind on all posts in the past few days, but this one leaped off the screen at me.  What you're both saying here is often completely true.  In my case, however, it was 180 degrees opposite.  I had no Christian friends or even acquaintances, lived in the second most secular state in the Union, and was still tracked down and saved.  It was highly inconvenient and even somewhat embarrassing.  I slowly broke it to three of my best friends.  Two of them took it pretty well, the third ended up never speaking to me again (not all his fault, I'm still working on my delivery; I'm very much a work in progress). 

Desert,

So my question is, why doesn't this happen to more people? There are people who have stuck with this thread for a long time who would love to have some kind of revelation. It just never happens to the great majority of people. Is there something special about you that you were chosen to be "tracked down and saved"? And isn't it possible that this is all in your head and not really real?

I ask because you yourself seem surprised at this unlikely development.

[MachineGhost]

I think you just broke the irony meter...

Well, my perspective is religion is the extremist position nowadays.  But so is being an aethiest.  I'm neither one.

[MachineGhost]

His Word is where he promised it to be - in the baptismal water, in the bread and wine, and in the Pastors voice proclaiming the Word, and recorded in the Scriptures.  Unfortunately, some refuse the gift.

Actually, many refuse your particular subjective perception of the "gift".  To think otherwise is just sheer arrogance and self-justification for your own travails.  And, I'm pretty sure this attitude is exactly how religious wars start, nevermind piss off aethiests.  So it's really less about what you believe than your aggrandization about it towards others.  That's what I personally find to be your weak spot, but I suppose it comes with the territory of faith.

You may actually think you're well-educated on religion but from my experience, you're stuck with tunnel vision and don't realize it or don't want to acknowledge it.  This bothers me for the exact same reason it bothers you that everyone else doesn't believe in the "gift".  Mexican standoff.

[MachineGhost]

I understand it being vague, but the lack of clarity plus the punishment for getting it wrong within certain interpretations of Christianity is pretty harsh.

What is your understanding of it being vague?

[Mountaineer]

His Word is where he promised it to be - in the baptismal water, in the bread and wine, and in the Pastors voice proclaiming the Word, and recorded in the Scriptures.  Unfortunately, some refuse the gift.

Actually, many refuse your particular subjective perception of the "gift".  To think otherwise is just sheer arrogance and self-justification for your own travails.  And, I'm pretty sure this attitude is exactly how religious wars start, nevermind piss off aethiests.  So it's really less about what you believe than your aggrandization about it towards others.  That's what I personally find to be your weak spot, but I suppose it comes with the territory of faith.

You may actually think you're well-educated on religion but from my experience, you're stuck with tunnel vision and don't realize it or don't want to acknowledge it.  This bothers me for the exact same reason it bothers you that everyone else doesn't believe in the "gift".  Mexican standoff.

Satan always attacks what he perceives to be our weak spots.  That is why it is so important to be able to self-observe, understand, and to have an outstanding defense; in my case that is the Word - same as Jesus used during his temptation by Satan.  Thanks be to God, the Word always works!  Satan is so active because he knows he has already been defeated - by Christ on the cross.  Truth cannot be overcome, no matter how hard we try to ignore, deflect, or lead others astray, or be lead away ourselves by false prophesy.  Perhaps we should start a new topic, "The Ultimate Permanent Supplement Gift".  Now, back to my Christmas gift ........   

... Mountaineer

[screwtape]

You may actually think you're well-educated on religion but from my experience, you're stuck with tunnel vision and don't realize it or don't want to acknowledge it.  This bothers me for the exact same reason it bothers you that everyone else doesn't believe in the "gift".  Mexican standoff.

Been around Christians of various stripes for a long time and I must say that Mountaineer, God bless him, is a very interesting specimen of the species. I was looking for the words myself but I can't do better than "Tunnel vision" to describe the brick wall we all seem to smash up against when trying to engage him.

When dealing with the verse in Matthew 16:28 where Jesus said to those he was talking to that some would not taste death before they saw the Son of Man coming in his kingdom, even C.S. Lewis said it was probably the most embarrassing verse in the Bible and had to grapple with it. Likewise the respected apologist William Lane Craig acknowledges on his website that it it is a difficult verse to deal with and offers several explanations.

No problem for our beloved Mountaineer however. What Jesus said was very clear and very consistent with the rest of the Bible. So not to worry.

[Mountaineer]

Those who are interested in connections between the First and Second Testaments or those who wish to hear more about "ears to hear" or those who are interested in interpreting parables might like this one by Rev. Fisk on Mark 4:

http://www.worldvieweverlasting.com/201 ... ay-mark-4/

... Mountaineer

[Greg]

So it's really less about what you believe than your aggrandization about it towards others.  That's what I personally find to be your weak spot, but I suppose it comes with the territory of faith.

You may actually think you're well-educated on religion but from my experience, you're stuck with tunnel vision and don't realize it or don't want to acknowledge it.  This bothers me for the exact same reason it bothers you that everyone else doesn't believe in the "gift".  Mexican standoff.

I was thinking about the bothering of other people about this. If you saw someone put poison into the meat in a burger making machine (much like the movie Good Burger), you'd feel compelled to tell other people not to eat the burgers, even if they are upset because you took away their burgers. You could just say "well, at least I won't die", and not eat the burgers, but then you'll feel bad about having other die when they didn't need to.

The only difference then with what is the more realistic scenario is that others have told you that the burgers have poison, or you read it in a burger book that there is poison in them. You still feel compelled to tell others but now you even have less land to stand on when they get upset because you took away their burgers. They'll say "where's your proof?", and you'll just have to say that based on your research that you believe they will die if they eat the burgers. Some find this too difficult to do because they don't want to be rejected but others like Mountaineer are there to smack those burgers out of their collective hands.

[Greg]

Greg,

You don't think Buddhists and Muslims around the world aren't trying to be closer to God?  It's one thing to make yourself vague. It's another thing to make yourself so vague that there are many different people coming to vastly different views of what God could be, and those who spend their whole lives trying way harder than most of us to find God get it wrong, the get a ticket to eternity in hell.

I understand it being vague, but the lack of clarity plus the punishment for getting it wrong within certain interpretations of Christianity is pretty harsh.

That's actually one of the reasons why I was interested in the Islam thread. I think that a good comparative search of major religions would be interesting to read. Here's a version below:

http://www.religionfacts.com/compare/religions

Also just because someone earnestly believes they are following the true path doesn't necessarily give them a higher chance of going to heaven. Just because you believe 2 + 2 = 5 and you've read a lot of literature showing that this is true, doesn't make it true.

I read the above paragraph and think that this is a good argument for agnosticism. There is no certainty so you might as well choose nothing and stay idling in your car versus going down a wrong path. But if you don't try going down some path, you know you won't be getting anywhere.

Also, I think it's very hard to change people's minds. Like MG said, a Mexican standoff. Same as voting, most people just stick to their voting patterns regardless whoever the candidate is, they'll just vote the party line. The people that we should be going after is those that are still receptive towards change.

[MediumTex]

There is either some kind of deity in control of the universe who really cares about you, or else there is a void and you are on your own. Sometimes I wonder how different my life would have been if I had accepted the latter much earlier and not programmed myself the way I did.

Like MachineGhost, I think that the truth is in between.

I think that any time you are part of any kind of community or happy family, you are anything but on your own.  You have innumerable people who help you in all sorts of ways, and there are many people you would be happy to help as well if you felt like without your help something bad would happen to them.

In a sense all of capitalism is based upon the fact that no one is on his own, and we all profit immensely from this interdependence.

I don't know what the proper label is for this as a belief system, but it seems to me that a non-religious enlightened person lives a righteous life in the same way that a religious person does, except for the mental framework is different.  The non-religious person sees the wordly realm as the place in which his existence takes place, while the religious person thinks that a portion of his existence takes place here and the rest will take place in another realm, but what we think of as "good behavior" and a "good life" can take place on the outside whichever mental framework is in place, though the religious person might have fewer dark feelings about death than the non-religious person, but that may just depend on the person.

A religious person might say "Hey, even if it's not true, it sure does feel good to have this religious mental framework", but that's when I start feeling like a kid who has failed the first grade a couple of times and all my classmates are talking about Santa Claus and I'm just sitting there awkwardly because I can't share the experience with them and I don't want to say anything to mess it up for them.

It's certainly true, though, that religious differences can deeply divide people, and IMHO that's a shame because if you put those differences aside there are often many other things in common that could make for good relationships, but that religious difference just has a way of gradually tempting you to look down on the other person because you are certain that their beliefs are inferior to yours and usually just plain wrong, and that can be a difficult feeling to shake.

Mountaineer has been so generous with his contributions and I appreciate that so much, and like so many of you he is obviously a highly intelligent and mature person, and yet I don't understand how he anchors his beliefs inside his mind.  I don't know how those beliefs stay attached in the mind of a person who has a reasonable amount of skepticism in other areas of his life.

I've always wondered how religious actuaries could do their jobs in good conscience knowing that virtually all risk models do not include any probability of a supernatural event having an effect on the the property and events with respect to which they are calculating risk.  There is the old story about the FAA requiring all pilot teams to have at least one non-Christian in case the Rapture occurs during a flight, but if you are a risk manager who believes in the Rapture, why wouldn't you want to make sure there was a non-Christian on every pilot team, and implement a rule that a non-Christian pilot can NEVER be converted to Christianity during a flight.  If that were the rule, though, sooner or later a non-Christian pilot would tell his Christian co-pilot that he wants to become a Christian in the middle of a flight and the co-pilot would say, per company policy, he must wait until they land, but the non-Christian pilot then has a heart attack and dies before the flight lands and he winds up in Hell instead of Heaven.  The Christian risk manager would have to carry that around for the rest of his life--his Rapture risk management policy would have cost that poor pilot his eternal salvation.  Doh!

[Greg]

I liked this for trying to figure out the correct religion:

http://www.gotquestions.org/correct-religion.html

[MediumTex]

Also just because someone earnestly believes they are following the true path doesn't necessarily give them a higher chance of going to heaven. Just because you believe 2 + 2 = 5 and you've read a lot of literature showing that this is true, doesn't make it true.

The thing is, though, when we are talking about a belief system premised upon things that cannot be proven, the equivalent of 2 + 2 = 5 will routinely be hardwired into a person's mental framework. 

In 1984, for example, we knew Winston Smith had been completely assimilated into the Big Brother belief system when he finally recognized that 2 + 2 did, indeed, equal 5.

Also, I think it's very hard to change people's minds....The people that we should be going after is those that are still receptive towards change.

I completely changed my mind about religion, even though I imagined my mind couldn't be changed when I was carrying around my church's mental framework.

It is certainly true, though, that the minds of many are not really open to change, and that is one of the reasons that it can be very difficult to engage in a thoughtful and open discussion about religion, and that's one reason I have really enjoyed this thread.  I rarely get to talk about religion in this way because most people don't want to have a REAL discussion about religion, what they want to do is tell me about their religion, and that never feels like a real discussion to me.

In the rare case that I do find myself on the verge of a real discussion of religion, I almost always begin to sense the areas of doubt a person has, and I know that it usually only takes a few blows to that area of doubt to weaken their overall faith, and I don't like being the one who does that to a person.  I don't like a person losing his sense of spiritual wholeness because of a discussion he had with me.  I'm too nice for that.  I want people to enjoy talking to me.  I don't want them to realize they're not going to Heaven because I exposed weaknesses in their faith that they never even knew existed.

I was talking to a guy at church one time who led a Bible study and he was a brilliant guy.  He had a PhD in chemistry from an Ivy League school or something like that and had written a bunch of books--really smart.  I asked him the following question:

If prior to Jesus's life, the only way to Heaven was by following the Jewish Law, and if after Jesus's death the only way to Heaven was through faith in Jesus Christ, do you think that there was a specific moment in time during Jesus's life where God went from only letting the Jewish Law people into Heaven to only letting the Faith in Jesus Christ people into Heaven, or do you think there was some kind of phase-in period?

He looked at me like I had just kicked his dog.  I think that he said it was probably a specific moment in time, to which I replied that was pretty tough for those people who had followed the Jewish Law their whole lives but died just after the new Faith in Jesus Christ-only policy went into effect.  He nodded weakly that that would indeed be very poor timing.  I asked him if he thought a phase-in period was possible, and he said he thought it was possible, though there really isn't any support in Scripture for it.

And just a note on the Jewish Law: If you are upholding the Jewish Law, what are you supposed to do about homosexuals?  If a Jewish Law adherent sees a homosexual being stoned, should he stop it?  If so, on what basis?  God made it very clear in the Old Testament that he didn't like gay people, and Paul reaffirmed that even though the New Testament God is kinder and gentler than the Old Testament God, he still doesn't like gay people.

[MediumTex]

I liked this for trying to figure out the correct religion:

http://www.gotquestions.org/correct-religion.html

Logic is absolutely critical in dismantling pluralism (which says that all truth claims, even those that oppose each other, are equal and valid).
For example, Islam and Judaism claim that Jesus is not God, whereas Christianity claims He is. One of the core laws of logic is the law of non-contradiction, which says something cannot be both “A” and “non-A” at the same time and in the same sense. Applying this law to the claims Judaism, Islam, and Christianity means that one is right and the other two are wrong. Jesus cannot be both God and not God. Used properly, logic is a potent weapon against pluralism because it clearly demonstrates that contrary truth claims cannot both be true. This understanding topples the whole “true for you but not for me” mindset.

  am i sensing there may be a bias in the conclusion they are drawing? (bolded) ..   no chance that... oh say.... one may be wrong and two right... 

...or maybe all three wrong?

LOL exactly