Falling Standards Make America Great!

[dualstow]

Amazing. Our junior high math classes are already like late elementary level classes in other parts of the world. Now we're going to continue to dumb things down by making students wait until high school for algebra.

This reminds me of a Kurt Vonnegut Jr novel -- I think it was The Sirens of Titan -- in which the strong had to wear lopsided weights to make themselves clumsy and the beautiful had to wear grotesque makeup so that we could all be a little more equal.

[Libertarian666]

Amazing. Our junior high math classes are already like late elementary level classes in other parts of the world. Now we're going to continue to dumb things down by making students wait until high school for algebra.

This reminds me of a Kurt Vonnegut Jr novel -- I think it was The Sirens of Titan -- in which the strong had to wear lopsided weights to make themselves clumsy and the beautiful had to wear grotesque makeup so that we could all be a little more equal.

That was a short story called "Harrison Bergeron". It's very famous among libertarians, for some reason.

[Pointedstick]

Amazing. Our junior high math classes are already like late elementary level classes in other parts of the world. Now we're going to continue to dumb things down by making students wait until high school for algebra.

This reminds me of a Kurt Vonnegut Jr novel -- I think it was The Sirens of Titan -- in which the strong had to wear lopsided weights to make themselves clumsy and the beautiful had to wear grotesque makeup so that we could all be a little more equal.

That was a short story called "Harrison Bergeron". It's very famous among libertarians, for some reason.

That society also makes an appearance in Sirens of Titan. I actually read Harrison Bergeron in middle school, believe it or not. It left a very deep impression on me.

[Pointedstick]

I wouldn't be surprised within 20 years to see a Department of Equality show up in the U.S. and perhaps other Western countries.

There is only so much the long-suffering conservative half of the USA will take, I think. Their members do happen to overwhelmingly control the food supply, the military, the police, and the stock of civilian-owned weaponry, heavy vehicles, and industrial equipment. Conservatives build the foundation upon which liberals produce culture, wealth, and prosperity, and liberals should do well to remember that they rely on conservatives for their ideal society far more than the reverse.

[Tyler]

Let's not forget that the social justice angle is also socially acceptable cover (in SF, at least) for pure self preservation.  When school funding is determined by the percentage of kids passing standardized tests, schools are financially incentivized to cater to the least common denominator.  That's been going on for years.  I remember my AP english class 20 years ago spending one day a week tutoring other kids on basic reading and math rather than learning anything new. 

[moda0306]

Ok I don't understand a lot of the fervent hyperbole here.

First off, from what I can tell, with the exception of not wanting to split out better students (I can understand getting pissed at this) most of this is generally a different philosophy on how to incorporate math over time, and how much to apply real world applications of math. The former I can't speak much to as a non-educator, but the latter seems like a goal at least worthy of discussion. I once worked with a math major, who could do some crazy math work, but if you asked him to put together a budget he would have had trouble tying it all our, and had trouble understanding pretty simple real world applications of math.

As an accountant, everyone thought/thinks I'm awesome at math, but the vast majority of my work is addition and subtraction, with some simple multiplication and division. Very little of it gets into super complex math. But it's trying to take math and apply it to real world problems that becomes difficult when under-practiced.

Don't get me wrong. I love math. But in a world where people are being taught complex calculus when they don't even know how to calculate the present value of an income stream, or apply math to some basic life/financial dilemmas, I don't think a conversation of whether to focus more on math's applicability in the real world is necessarily something worth losing our minds over.

As for home schooling, I highly doubt 99% of the parents in my community could teach math anywhere near as well as my high school calculus teacher. In a country where people just simply don't know math that well, while I don't oppose home schooling, this seems like a silly place to bring it up as a solution. If there's anywhere I want a pro doing the job if I am to learn, it's math.

[moda0306]

Ok I don't understand a lot of the fervent hyperbole here.

First off, from what I can tell, with the exception of not wanting to split out better students (I can understand getting pissed at this) most of this is generally a different philosophy on how to incorporate math over time, and how much to apply real world applications of math. The former I can't speak much to as a non-educator, but the latter seems like a goal at least worthy of discussion. I once worked with a math major, who could do some crazy math work, but if you asked him to put together a budget he would have had trouble tying it all our, and had trouble understanding pretty simple real world applications of math.

Well that crap about keeping kids from advancing who are better is just that. I completely disagree with that, but I think that is sort of a separate argument for trying to ground math back into real problem solving. I'm not saying common core or whatever is doing it right by any means, but I'm pretty sure people would be WAY better off in this country if they simply new how to apply basic mathematic principles to various areas of life without wanting to pull their hair out.

And homeschooling is going to have a natural bias. Not just anyone chooses that option. I really don't think it would work for most other people who don't have the fortitude for it, but got convinced to because they thought math would be to easy for their kid or they were going to have to learn about evolution or something awful.

Between the doubletalk in the article, it is clear that they are lowering standards and depriving brighter students of more opportunities.

The same thing happened with AP/gifted classes in other districts. If they didn't have enough of a particular demographic, then it was deemed unfair and they killed the classes for everyone.

As an accountant, everyone thought/thinks I'm awesome at math, but the vast majority of my work is addition and subtraction, with some simple multiplication and division. Very little of it gets into super complex math. But it's trying to take math and apply it to real world problems that becomes difficult when under-practiced.

Understood. But at the same time in my school there were guys that were extremely good at mathematics. I don't think anyone was jealous of them enough to shut down their Calculus II classes they were taking.

As for home schooling, I highly doubt 99% of the parents in my community could teach math anywhere near as well as my high school calculus teacher. In a country where people just simply don't know math that well, while I don't oppose home schooling, this seems like a silly place to bring it up as a solution. If there's anywhere I want a pro doing the job if I am to learn, it's math.

I used to think this as well. But having interacted with home schooled students and seeing the networks they have now I'm not so sure these criticisms apply. Those parents are crazy about good education and will find others in the community to teach specialized subjects when needed.

[Tyler]

@Moda: I agree with you on the application of math.  The whole system of pushing rote memorization over application purely for the benefit of passing short-term tests is a pretty awful way to educate people.  If it was just about that, I would have no problem with the reform.  However, making sure every student can apply the concepts to real world situations does not require eliminating advanced education for gifted students who get it and move on.  There's clearly more to it with statements like:

"Hull Barnes says exposing all students to high-quality math instruction is a social justice issue for SFUSD.  District officials say the controversial practice of tracking students — or separating them based on talent and ability — is simply wrong."

It's that kind of crap that gives social justice a bad name.  The next thing you know, they'll be outlawing parents reading to their own kids because it creates an unfair advantage.

[Mountaineer]

Indeed, the guy is nuts.  Listen to this:

‘It’s the children’s interest in family life that is the most important,’ says Swift. ‘From all we now know, it is in the child’s interest to be parented, and to be parented well. Meanwhile, from the adult point of view it looks as if there is something very valuable in being a parent.’

He concedes parenting might not be for everyone and for some it can go badly wrong, but in general it is an irreplaceable relationship.

‘Parenting a child makes for what we call a distinctive and special contribution to the flourishing and wellbeing of adults.’

The man is insane.  Anyone with a rudimentary understanding of economics can see that.

As we all know, value is defined by production, and children generally produce nothing, so therefore, they have no value.  Needless to say, raising children provides no value either.

(Note that children who are solving important problems like curing cancer, or coming up with games and apps that manipulate people into buying stuff are providing immense value.  The rest, however, provide no value whatsoever.)

The only way to increase our collective productivity, then, is to eliminate children.  Since this would be cruel, a better solution would be to discourage people from breeding.  And if you must breed, have the sense to outsource your offspring's upbringing to private entities who can put them on a path to productivity.  That way, most adults (the only ones with productive capacity) can focus on real production, instead of anti-productive activity like raising children. 

Seeing fertility rates in the U.S. falling over time makes me think we have adopted this philosophy rather well. Libertarians rejoice!

(That was sarcasm.)

How can you guys possibly criticize such a brilliant philosopher who is likely a legend in his own mind?  Especially when his name is Swift.  The irony of it. 

... M

[Pointedstick]

I'm going to guess that Mr. Swift has never had any children. These loony liberals always target for destruction that which they have no stake in preserving. To be fair, this Adam Swift lunatic is British, not American. The Brits are far, far deeper down the leftist rabbit hole than we are.

[dualstow]

- "Harrison Bergeron" - Thanks, tech and PS. I'll have to check out the short story as well. I've only read 'Sirens.'

- I agree with Tyler's point: it's largely about self-preservation.

-

How can you guys possibly criticize such a brilliant philosopher who is likely a legend in his own mind?  Especially when his name is Swift.  The irony of it. 

Seriously. I was going to suggest that it must be Jonathan Swift. ;-)

[WiseOne]

Also of course we must make sure there are plenty of jobs kept open for people coming from overseas, where math and science education is taken more seriously.  The bias in the US against those disciplines has been around for a long time, and it just boggles my mind how it only seems to be getting worse.  But you can't just blame liberals for this.  "No Child Left Behind" did a lot of damage.  High schools are now mostly about meeting the bare minimum standards required for test purposes, and of course learning Spanish.

It's no accident that of the 3 grad students/postdocs in my lab, only one is American.  And that's probably a higher percentage than most.

My 12 year old niece in Vancouver (Canada not WA) has been taking a specialized city-wide math class that is way beyond anything I've ever heard of being made available in the US.  She loves it.

[Reub]

I'm happy that our egalitarian society recognizes that differences between people is mean and wrong and that math is a contributor to social justice oppression:

http://ww2.kqed.org/news/2015/07/22/san ... -algebra-1

Hull Barnes says exposing all students to high-quality math instruction is a social justice issue for SFUSD.

District officials say the controversial practice of tracking students — or separating them based on talent and ability — is simply wrong.

Math is now supposed to be more rigorous and engaging at all levels, regardless of the students’ ability.

“What it means to be good in math is no longer about answer-getting and speed,” Hull Barnes says. “To be truly deeply proficient in math, you have to defend your reasoning and understand how a mathematical situation would apply in the real world. That’s a very significant shift.”

What I always liked about math when I was in school is if I didn't know the answer, I could simply check the box that the math problem was unfair and triggering and it would be scored as correct.

I feel comfortable knowing that the future engineers of America won't be so concerned with pesky "answer-getting", but rather a deeply proficient defense of their reasoning on why they were right and that stupid math problem was wrong.

If I was raising a kid in the U.S. today, I think homeschooling is an absolute must.

Hey, craig. I hate it when foreigners like you criticize my country this way!

[Reub]

There you go again!

[Cortopassi]

I think maybe it is a larger US city thing.  We live in a suburb of Chicago, and my oldest daughter is going to be a sophomore in HS.  Already took one AP class, and will be taking calculus, so she is a full 3 years ahead of where I was in math in the early 80s, and I am an engineer.

She will have opportunities to take on the order of 5-6 more AP classes during the next three years.

Not sure she would have had these opportunities or the environment if we were going to a random Chicago public school. 

[Pointedstick]

But you know parents in NZ put a lot of time into raising their kids and this gives them an unfair advantage according to the enlightened left. Parents should instead be giving their kids some lead paint to lick so they can level the playing field.

Classic!

[I Shrugged]

I wouldn't be surprised within 20 years to see a Department of Equality show up in the U.S. and perhaps other Western countries.

There is only so much the long-suffering conservative half of the USA will take, I think. Their members do happen to overwhelmingly control the food supply, the military, the police, and the stock of civilian-owned weaponry, heavy vehicles, and industrial equipment. Conservatives build the foundation upon which liberals produce culture, wealth, and prosperity, and liberals should do well to remember that they rely on conservatives for their ideal society far more than the reverse.

One night we were sitting around a campfire in Terlingua, Texas with a guy from the NYC area.  He said something like, "if conservatives ever stopped working, all those liberals would starve within a few weeks."  I laughed pretty hard.  Beer was involved.

But anyway, no, coastal liberals do not have any sense of irony about their disdain for the people in flyover country.

[Cortopassi]

I think maybe it is a larger US city thing.  We live in a suburb of Chicago, and my oldest daughter is going to be a sophomore in HS.  Already took one AP class, and will be taking calculus, so she is a full 3 years ahead of where I was in math in the early 80s, and I am an engineer.

She will have opportunities to take on the order of 5-6 more AP classes during the next three years.

Not sure she would have had these opportunities or the environment if we were going to a random Chicago public school.

Is she going to be an Illini engineer also?

I have done a pretty good job of mentally steering them away from engineering, not that either of them were really considering it.  In 26 years I have had 8 real engineering jobs, having lost 5 along the way to outsourcing to the far east, or downsizings.  I also have attempted consulting numerous times, which lasted anywhere from a few weeks to a year. 

I am really biased against having them pursue engineering because of that.  I currently do hardware that is bought by the military and schools, which is great because it is much harder to outsource that.  But when I did consumer electronics, starting in the 90s and 2000s, the siren song of cheap labor from China was too much for those products to continue to be made in the states.  First it was manufacturing, then a few years later a lot of design went over there, at least at the places I was at (Palm in particular).

She is thinking of teaching math.

[bedraggled]

My kids doubled up on Math and science in high school- 2 years of calculus each.  my younger one took chemistry on line.  The teacher lived in Pennsylvania and students were from around the world.

UPS delivered the lab materials in a heavy cardboard box.  Shipping was part of the tuition.  One day I came home and the young one and my wife were there with goggles in the kitchen.  The student was wearing a leather apron.  Some sort of nasty acids situation.  Looked like MacBeth's cauldron scene.  I just walked away and went to the internet.  Her lab average was 93.  I recall the class lab average was in the 70s.

Moral: hit your kids early with as much quantitative as possible.  Her brother thought college organic chemistry was a hoot.

[Greg]

I think maybe it is a larger US city thing.  We live in a suburb of Chicago, and my oldest daughter is going to be a sophomore in HS.  Already took one AP class, and will be taking calculus, so she is a full 3 years ahead of where I was in math in the early 80s, and I am an engineer.

She will have opportunities to take on the order of 5-6 more AP classes during the next three years.

Not sure she would have had these opportunities or the environment if we were going to a random Chicago public school.

Is she going to be an Illini engineer also?

I have done a pretty good job of mentally steering them away from engineering, not that either of them were really considering it.  In 26 years I have had 8 real engineering jobs, having lost 5 along the way to outsourcing to the far east, or downsizings.  I also have attempted consulting numerous times, which lasted anywhere from a few weeks to a year. 

I am really biased against having them pursue engineering because of that.  I currently do hardware that is bought by the military and schools, which is great because it is much harder to outsource that.  But when I did consumer electronics, starting in the 90s and 2000s, the siren song of cheap labor from China was too much for those products to continue to be made in the states.  First it was manufacturing, then a few years later a lot of design went over there, at least at the places I was at (Palm in particular).

She is thinking of teaching math.

Cortopassi,

What type of engineer were/are you? I would have thought a lot of engineering is pretty good in the states for job employment.

[Cortopassi]

Electrical.  BSEE.  I've been at my current job for 10 years, so it has been stable doing what I am doing, mainly military and markets that tend to buy American, like school districts.

The consumer side US based EE designers may be stabilized for now, for all I know.  I like not having to think or worry about it.  But back in the mid 90s through early 2000s there seemed to always be a huge push in consumer to move everything offshore.

Since we also do consulting here, quite often we quote jobs where the customer has already gotten a quote from China, and we simply can't compete on cost.  When you throw quality and support in the mix we compete much better, but most customers are initially looking for price, and then only when something do they care about quality.

[Tyler]

Since we also do consulting here, quite often we quote jobs where the customer has already gotten a quote from China, and we simply can't compete on cost.  When you throw quality and support in the mix we compete much better, but most customers are initially looking for price, and then only when something do they care about quality.

Man -- ain't that the truth.  I worked in consulting for a long time, and we got a good amount of work from clients coming to us at the last minute after realizing that the quality they were getting from cheap overseas options wasn't going to cut it.  Constantly fighting someone else's urgent fires with less and less original design work gets old really fast. 

[Tyler]

I have done a lot of coding for my career and if someone said they wanted to go into it today I'd advise against it in the states at least. Too easy to get swapped out with outsourced or imported labor. I met programmers from places like Microsoft that were laid off and replaced with H1Bs for instance. It's pure cost cutting.

One friend of mine at another company was asked to train his H1B replacement back in around 2007. He walked off the job instead and kept his dignity. I wish more people would try to take their employers to court if they were laid off and replaced with an H1B. I bet they would find a very sympathetic jury that would award huge damages.

The howling of the STEM shortage is just pure BS because someone going through school sees the writing on the wall and avoids those careers due to the job risk.

Qualcomm Lays Off 4,500 Workers While Demanding More H-1bs

http://dailycaller.com/2015/07/29/qualc ... ore-h-1bs/

[Mountaineer]

Maybe the Qualcomm ex-workers can get a job at NOAA.

https://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/201 ... d-at-noaa/

... M