Figuring Out Religion

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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Stillwaters » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:25 pm

jacksonM wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:30 am
Stillwaters wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:28 pm
jacksonM wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:51 am


I know these were meant for Stillwaters (interesting Biblical name he has chosen for himself, don't you think? - Psalm 23)

But I'll answer any way.

At this point in my journey through the cosmos I can only see it as the height of arrogance to claim you know the answers to the questions you are posing.

Also I think it is kind of rich that you would ask for these answers when you own answer to puzzling questions is "scripture doesn't tell us".
jacksonM,

Not Psalms. But rather 'Still Waters Run Deep'. Not in a self referential way but as a Philosophical/Behavioral leaning.

Still internally debating whether to respond to Mountaineer’s question. Not something that two or three paragraphs could appropriately address.

I’ve noticed this thread has lost is oomph. Seems like most have moved on or lost interest. Was an epic multi-year thread though. I discovered it for the first time about two or three weeks ago (only stuck to the PP threads on and off prior to that). Believe it or not I read the entire thing from start to finish. Seems I may have arrived at its death knell. We could say the Mountaineer was the one ultra marathoner who stayed in the race the whole way.
Congratulations on reading the whole thread.

I think that my own arguments aren't really aimed at the religious folk so much as they are the last vestiges of religion remaining within myself. The truth is I was ten times the religious fanatic that Mountaineer is for a good portion of my life. Have you ever worked with someone who carried a Bible to work every day? That was me. I even started Bible study groups and led a lot of people to say the sinners prayer and all of them had a born again experience. Most are still Christians today. (For how to induce a religious experience see a couple of amazing Youtube videos by Darren Brown the magician. I thought it was a "gift" from God at the time but it was pure psychological manipulation.)

Looking back I can definitely see that there were some benefits to having been a devout Christian. I mean, how can it not help to constantly read a book encouraging you to do good and eschew evil? You just have to ignore all the bad stuff. Prayer probably had the same benefit as meditation and I even fasted a lot which is now being recognized as good for your health due to something called "autophagy".

All in all however, those years of my life are not something I'm proud of. I have to avoid thinking of what I could have done with all the time and energy if I had pointed it in a different direction.

Somebody up above made the comment that this thread should be taken out and shot and I'm starting to agree. Gonna try to resist the temptation to click on it but sometimes satan just overpowers me.
Giving up any religious or philosophical perspective that has completely informed and defined your life takes enormous courage. You had to have been haunted by the desire to find truth above all else, even to the sacrifice of your own personal comfort and societal acceptance. I can’t imagine the loneliness you must have felt when you made that jump. You have to be true to yourself (I know Mountaineer and Xan reject the idea of listening to your inner voice, trying to play God). This is why so few can ever jettison the belief systems that they were raised and nurtured in. It is simply too much to ask a Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Jew, Christian, etc. to give up the doctrines/community/culture/family bonds/rituals that have seeped deeply into their souls from childhood. It is literally who they are top to bottom. Is it any wonder there are precious few religious conversions (percentage speaking) between the major religious traditions. The Lutheran position (among others) is Pre-destination on an industrial scale.

Again, right/wrong or indifferent your move was and is courageous to its core. Too me that speaks of character. If Mountaineer and Xan are correct, and God must find you through Grace or your life was Pre-destined from the start then it is out of your hands anyway. Where is the fine line between Free Will (I can’t make myself like Vanilla or an 80/20 Investment portfolio : )) and Grace/Pre-destination. There will definitely be some good and courageous people in hell. And my acquaintance (with the low ethical standards stealing from the till) will hopefully not look down upon all of them with glee, and instead thank his lucky stars that he was raised in the right culture, right family, right church and with the correct wiring for the right religious Faith. Mountaineer is right….the Gate is Narrow.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by jacksonM » Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:27 am

Stillwaters wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:25 pm
jacksonM wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:30 am
Stillwaters wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:28 pm

jacksonM,

Not Psalms. But rather 'Still Waters Run Deep'. Not in a self referential way but as a Philosophical/Behavioral leaning.

Still internally debating whether to respond to Mountaineer’s question. Not something that two or three paragraphs could appropriately address.

I’ve noticed this thread has lost is oomph. Seems like most have moved on or lost interest. Was an epic multi-year thread though. I discovered it for the first time about two or three weeks ago (only stuck to the PP threads on and off prior to that). Believe it or not I read the entire thing from start to finish. Seems I may have arrived at its death knell. We could say the Mountaineer was the one ultra marathoner who stayed in the race the whole way.
Congratulations on reading the whole thread.

I think that my own arguments aren't really aimed at the religious folk so much as they are the last vestiges of religion remaining within myself. The truth is I was ten times the religious fanatic that Mountaineer is for a good portion of my life. Have you ever worked with someone who carried a Bible to work every day? That was me. I even started Bible study groups and led a lot of people to say the sinners prayer and all of them had a born again experience. Most are still Christians today. (For how to induce a religious experience see a couple of amazing Youtube videos by Darren Brown the magician. I thought it was a "gift" from God at the time but it was pure psychological manipulation.)

Looking back I can definitely see that there were some benefits to having been a devout Christian. I mean, how can it not help to constantly read a book encouraging you to do good and eschew evil? You just have to ignore all the bad stuff. Prayer probably had the same benefit as meditation and I even fasted a lot which is now being recognized as good for your health due to something called "autophagy".

All in all however, those years of my life are not something I'm proud of. I have to avoid thinking of what I could have done with all the time and energy if I had pointed it in a different direction.

Somebody up above made the comment that this thread should be taken out and shot and I'm starting to agree. Gonna try to resist the temptation to click on it but sometimes satan just overpowers me.
Giving up any religious or philosophical perspective that has completely informed and defined your life takes enormous courage. You had to have been haunted by the desire to find truth above all else, even to the sacrifice of your own personal comfort and societal acceptance. I can’t imagine the loneliness you must have felt when you made that jump. You have to be true to yourself (I know Mountaineer and Xan reject the idea of listening to your inner voice, trying to play God). This is why so few can ever jettison the belief systems that they were raised and nurtured in. It is simply too much to ask a Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Jew, Christian, etc. to give up the doctrines/community/culture/family bonds/rituals that have seeped deeply into their souls from childhood. It is literally who they are top to bottom. Is it any wonder there are precious few religious conversions (percentage speaking) between the major religious traditions. The Lutheran position (among others) is Pre-destination on an industrial scale.

Again, right/wrong or indifferent your move was and is courageous to its core. Too me that speaks of character. If Mountaineer and Xan are correct, and God must find you through Grace or your life was Pre-destined from the start then it is out of your hands anyway. Where is the fine line between Free Will (I can’t make myself like Vanilla or an 80/20 Investment portfolio : )) and Grace/Pre-destination. There will definitely be some good and courageous people in hell. And my acquaintance (with the low ethical standards stealing from the till) will hopefully not look down upon all of them with glee, and instead thank his lucky stars that he was raised in the right culture, right family, right church and with the correct wiring for the right religious Faith. Mountaineer is right….the Gate is Narrow.
Giving up religion is like giving up a powerful addictive drug that you have allowed to become the center of your life. I would not chalk it up to courage so much as psychological necessity. Xan called it "burnout" and I know he probably meant it in the kind of derogatory way I'm getting used to but there is some truth to it. The amount of mental energy you have to spend to keep believing the unbelievable does get exhausting.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:58 pm

jacksonM wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:27 am
Stillwaters wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:25 pm
jacksonM wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:30 am


Congratulations on reading the whole thread.

I think that my own arguments aren't really aimed at the religious folk so much as they are the last vestiges of religion remaining within myself. The truth is I was ten times the religious fanatic that Mountaineer is for a good portion of my life. Have you ever worked with someone who carried a Bible to work every day? That was me. I even started Bible study groups and led a lot of people to say the sinners prayer and all of them had a born again experience. Most are still Christians today. (For how to induce a religious experience see a couple of amazing Youtube videos by Darren Brown the magician. I thought it was a "gift" from God at the time but it was pure psychological manipulation.)

Looking back I can definitely see that there were some benefits to having been a devout Christian. I mean, how can it not help to constantly read a book encouraging you to do good and eschew evil? You just have to ignore all the bad stuff. Prayer probably had the same benefit as meditation and I even fasted a lot which is now being recognized as good for your health due to something called "autophagy".

All in all however, those years of my life are not something I'm proud of. I have to avoid thinking of what I could have done with all the time and energy if I had pointed it in a different direction.

Somebody up above made the comment that this thread should be taken out and shot and I'm starting to agree. Gonna try to resist the temptation to click on it but sometimes satan just overpowers me.
Giving up any religious or philosophical perspective that has completely informed and defined your life takes enormous courage. You had to have been haunted by the desire to find truth above all else, even to the sacrifice of your own personal comfort and societal acceptance. I can’t imagine the loneliness you must have felt when you made that jump. You have to be true to yourself (I know Mountaineer and Xan reject the idea of listening to your inner voice, trying to play God). This is why so few can ever jettison the belief systems that they were raised and nurtured in. It is simply too much to ask a Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Jew, Christian, etc. to give up the doctrines/community/culture/family bonds/rituals that have seeped deeply into their souls from childhood. It is literally who they are top to bottom. Is it any wonder there are precious few religious conversions (percentage speaking) between the major religious traditions. The Lutheran position (among others) is Pre-destination on an industrial scale.

Again, right/wrong or indifferent your move was and is courageous to its core. Too me that speaks of character. If Mountaineer and Xan are correct, and God must find you through Grace or your life was Pre-destined from the start then it is out of your hands anyway. Where is the fine line between Free Will (I can’t make myself like Vanilla or an 80/20 Investment portfolio : )) and Grace/Pre-destination. There will definitely be some good and courageous people in hell. And my acquaintance (with the low ethical standards stealing from the till) will hopefully not look down upon all of them with glee, and instead thank his lucky stars that he was raised in the right culture, right family, right church and with the correct wiring for the right religious Faith. Mountaineer is right….the Gate is Narrow.
Giving up religion is like giving up a powerful addictive drug that you have allowed to become the center of your life. I would not chalk it up to courage so much as psychological necessity. Xan called it "burnout" and I know he probably meant it in the kind of derogatory way I'm getting used to but there is some truth to it. The amount of mental energy you have to spend to keep believing the unbelievable does get exhausting.
JacksonM,

My comments are in no way disputing your experience and I hope you are given peace in your temporal and eternal journey. My experience is different than yours. I found it took a lot more mental energy to not believe than to believe, and a lot more mental and physical energy to follow the teachings of my former Christian experiences than with my current. For me, unbelief was the powerful addictive drug that I allowed for a time to become the center of my life - i.e. it was all about me and my desires and not all about the Creator and His desires for me. I'm with Xan on his comments about burnout and I don't think he meant it in a derogatory manner. Religions that are heavily "works righteousness, trying to earn God's favor, based on what you must do or decide" (e.g. Evangelical in the modern usage, Roman Catholic, Islamic, etc. traditions) are exausting as you can never do enough, there is always more work to do, more sins to make up for, more jihads to undertake, more lies to succumb to. A religion that tells me that God Word says I'm not nearly as hot as I think I am and deserve nothing but God's wrath, and then helps me understand that Jesus did it all for me on the cross and gave me his righteousness in exchange for my sin is supremely comforting. I am forgiven, free of my striving to earn something, and free to love God and my neighbor with a peaceful and joyous attitude; my hope is that all would have that, even with the suffering and persecution that comes with being a Christian.

Anyway, best wishes for you in your journey. Blessings.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by jacksonM » Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:17 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:58 pm
jacksonM wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:27 am
Stillwaters wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:25 pm

Giving up any religious or philosophical perspective that has completely informed and defined your life takes enormous courage. You had to have been haunted by the desire to find truth above all else, even to the sacrifice of your own personal comfort and societal acceptance. I can’t imagine the loneliness you must have felt when you made that jump. You have to be true to yourself (I know Mountaineer and Xan reject the idea of listening to your inner voice, trying to play God). This is why so few can ever jettison the belief systems that they were raised and nurtured in. It is simply too much to ask a Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Jew, Christian, etc. to give up the doctrines/community/culture/family bonds/rituals that have seeped deeply into their souls from childhood. It is literally who they are top to bottom. Is it any wonder there are precious few religious conversions (percentage speaking) between the major religious traditions. The Lutheran position (among others) is Pre-destination on an industrial scale.

Again, right/wrong or indifferent your move was and is courageous to its core. Too me that speaks of character. If Mountaineer and Xan are correct, and God must find you through Grace or your life was Pre-destined from the start then it is out of your hands anyway. Where is the fine line between Free Will (I can’t make myself like Vanilla or an 80/20 Investment portfolio : )) and Grace/Pre-destination. There will definitely be some good and courageous people in hell. And my acquaintance (with the low ethical standards stealing from the till) will hopefully not look down upon all of them with glee, and instead thank his lucky stars that he was raised in the right culture, right family, right church and with the correct wiring for the right religious Faith. Mountaineer is right….the Gate is Narrow.
Giving up religion is like giving up a powerful addictive drug that you have allowed to become the center of your life. I would not chalk it up to courage so much as psychological necessity. Xan called it "burnout" and I know he probably meant it in the kind of derogatory way I'm getting used to but there is some truth to it. The amount of mental energy you have to spend to keep believing the unbelievable does get exhausting.
JacksonM,

My comments are in no way disputing your experience and I hope you are given peace in your temporal and eternal journey. My experience is different than yours. I found it took a lot more mental energy to not believe than to believe, and a lot more mental and physical energy to follow the teachings of my former Christian experiences than with my current. For me, unbelief was the powerful addictive drug that I allowed for a time to become the center of my life - i.e. it was all about me and my desires and not all about the Creator and His desires for me. I'm with Xan on his comments about burnout and I don't think he meant it in a derogatory manner. Religions that are heavily "works righteousness, trying to earn God's favor, based on what you must do or decide" (e.g. Evangelical in the modern usage, Roman Catholic, Islamic, etc. traditions) are exausting as you can never do enough, there is always more work to do, more sins to make up for, more jihads to undertake, more lies to succumb to. A religion that tells me that God Word says I'm not nearly as hot as I think I am and deserve nothing but God's wrath, and then helps me understand that Jesus did it all for me on the cross and gave me his righteousness in exchange for my sin is supremely comforting. I am forgiven, free of my striving to earn something, and free to love God and my neighbor with a peaceful and joyous attitude; my hope is that all would have that, even with the suffering and persecution that comes with being a Christian.

Anyway, best wishes for you in your journey. Blessings.
I have no doubt that you find the story of Jesus supremely comforting. It's an extremely attractive and compelling story that millions of people have been deriving comfort from for a couple of thousand years now, myself included among them for a good 20 years or so. Other people find the same sort of comfort from the story of Mohammed, Buddha, or Joseph Smith. I currently believe the true nature of this "comfort" is a release of dopamine in the brain that allows you to cope with the fear of death. Without intending to be crude about it, the mental process has much in common with having sexual fantasies. It just produces a different kind of bodily reaction.

So in my statement above I probably shouldn't have said it is like a powerfully addictive drug. It IS a powerfully addictive drug. People have both died and killed for it.

I could tell an interesting and entertaining story of my journey from belief to unbelief and maybe I will someday. It would include an anecdote about the time I saw the REAL Joe Montana who was once a grid-iron hero of mine. He was in an old Corvette convertible driving behind my RV on the Pacific Coast Highway. I couldn't tell it was him at first but I could see the driver was getting very impatient because there were signs all along the way saying "Do not Pass" and there was nowhere for me to pull over and let him by. Only when I came to an intersection and he turned south back to San Francisco did I realize who it was, much to my amazement. That night I awoke from a dream in which Jesus was standing right beside me in my RV. It was the kind of dream where you could swear it was as real as anything could be. This was at a time when I was grieving from the death of my wife and He had come to assure me that it had happened for a reason and that there still was a purpose to my life. It was not that I was thinking he had forsaken me however, because I had felt his presence at times more powerfully than I ever had throughout the whole ordeal.

Well, I'm sure the real Jesus wasn't too happy with the outcome of his appearance. If you've seen the movie "A Beautiful Mind", it turned out to be a moment like in the movie where it finally breaks through to John Nash that the characters he has been seeing and talking to for many years aren't real. I had the same sort of revelation shortly after that dream when I was looking in the mirror and finally realized that the real Jesus was looking back at me. Some people think I'm just mad at Jesus now but I have forgiven him for all the nonsense. He sometimes even makes me laugh out loud when I think about him.

So that's part of my story but it all boils down to chemical processes in the brain. I made my living as a computer programmer and there were times when I would find myself staring at a hex dump looking for a bug in a program and the sheer beauty of the puzzle would bring tears to my eyes.

Given the peculiar workings of my brain, can anyone find it surprising that I started having difficulty trying to re-ground my faith in the "Word of God" by taking a good hard look at it. Just start with Genesis 1 and compare it to what little we know about the science of origins. And that's just for starters. It gets worse.

The end result of this exercise was being left wondering how I ever believed this stuff in the first place. For an explanation of that phenomenon see the first paragraph above.

As for coping with death now, I have no clue what happens when we die. I've been smoking a little pot at bedtime lately and sometimes I will find myself enveloped by the darkness and blackness of death in a way that I can hardly describe. What I have learned from this is to embrace that feeling because ultimately it helps you realize what it means to be alive. It really is an amazing miracle when you think about it but I don't think any religion known to man has a valid explanation for it.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:08 pm

interactive processing wrote: re: the fear of death...
every human being that has ever been alive, except for the (aprx) 7678400000 people alive on earth at this moment, HAS DIED..... and not a single one has come back to complain :)
I don't think words spoken from one in Hades would count in your analysis as 'coming back to complain' since he is still there, but read Luke 16:19-31 about the rich man complaining to Abraham and asking for a drop of water. The account is told by Jesus, who did come back from the dead. Thus, I'll go with your statement as being technically true. :)

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=ESV

Resurrection Articles:

https://issuesetc.org/tag/resurrection-of-jesus/

https://answersingenesis.org/jesus-chri ... e-reality/

https://answersingenesis.org/archaeolog ... urrection/
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Stillwaters » Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:05 pm

I remain fascinated by the “Gate is Narrow” viewpoint. If I understand Mountaineer and Xan’s position correctly…most of humanity will be damned for eternity. Many through no fault of their own (raised in different culture, religion, never exposed to Christianity, etc.). Others are damned because they have heard the word but “Do Not Get It” or as others have said “I can’t make myself believe in Santa Claus”. This would mean “billions” in torment.(perhaps 100’s of billions if the 2nd coming is delayed another thousand years). In any event, this mass damnation is very abstract and does not carry much emotional heft.

I would like instead to bring it down to a more personal level. I want to present a very real situation (but we can call it hypothetical) that does occur and see how Mountaineer and Xan would handle it. Say that a very good friend (a Believer) of yours has a daughter who he loves beyond almost anything in this life. She and he have a very close relationship with many common interests. She is also very devoted to her father. She is now an adult with her own family and she is NOT a Believer. They have had many discussions regarding his Faith but it is very clear that she no longer has the faith (and perhaps never really had it due to other outside influences over the years). She is very forthright that she has no interest in this subject matter any further and has told her Dad that this topic is now off limits. Any further broaching of the issue could irreparably damage the relationship. This close friend comes to you very distraught with two questions:

1) Is my precious daughter going to suffer in Hell for eternity? (you have to be honest even though he is your friend)

2) If she is to suffer for eternity how can I possibly be happy in Heaven?

Not to jump the gun on #2 but I would assume that God would have to erase from him any memory of her. If this is the answer, then he has in fact been re-programmed like a machine, and the true love between them and by extension all humans is not of true sacred lasting value, eternal of otherwise.

Again, any response in your own words (vs. Scripture or other reference material) is most appreciated.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Hal » Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:51 pm

Well, I am by no means a bible scholar, however I thought that when someone died it was no different to an animal dying.
It was only if God was happy with your life, that a "reward?" was granted.

https://biblehub.com/ecclesiastes/3-19.htm


I could never reconcile some telling me "God is love" while others told me the ignorant/unbelievers be "in Hellfire"
Will be most interested in the answer to Stillwaters question

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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:08 pm

Stillwaters wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:05 pm
I remain fascinated by the “Gate is Narrow” viewpoint. If I understand Mountaineer and Xan’s position correctly…most of humanity will be damned for eternity. Many through no fault of their own (raised in different culture, religion, never exposed to Christianity, etc.). Others are damned because they have heard the word but “Do Not Get It” or as others have said “I can’t make myself believe in Santa Claus”. This would mean “billions” in torment.(perhaps 100’s of billions if the 2nd coming is delayed another thousand years). In any event, this mass damnation is very abstract and does not carry much emotional heft.

I would like instead to bring it down to a more personal level. I want to present a very real situation (but we can call it hypothetical) that does occur and see how Mountaineer and Xan would handle it. Say that a very good friend (a Believer) of yours has a daughter who he loves beyond almost anything in this life. She and he have a very close relationship with many common interests. She is also very devoted to her father. She is now an adult with her own family and she is NOT a Believer. They have had many discussions regarding his Faith but it is very clear that she no longer has the faith (and perhaps never really had it due to other outside influences over the years). She is very forthright that she has no interest in this subject matter any further and has told her Dad that this topic is now off limits. Any further broaching of the issue could irreparably damage the relationship. This close friend comes to you very distraught with two questions:

1) Is my precious daughter going to suffer in Hell for eternity? (you have to be honest even though he is your friend)

2) If she is to suffer for eternity how can I possibly be happy in Heaven?

Not to jump the gun on #2 but I would assume that God would have to erase from him any memory of her. If this is the answer, then he has in fact been re-programmed like a machine, and the true love between them and by extension all humans is not of true sacred lasting value, eternal of otherwise.

Again, any response in your own words (vs. Scripture or other reference material) is most appreciated.
Stillwaters, thanks for the ongoing discussion; I'll do my best to address your questions.

First of all, it is important to again mention my presuppositions to refresh you on where I’m coming from with my answers. I believe Scripture is inspired and for practical purposes inerrant (i.e. use an accurate translation(s)) when taken in context and that Scripture interprets Scripture with the clearer passages helping to understand the less clear. That means I believe Scripture is God’s authoritative Word and includes all He wants us to know which is sufficient for our salvation. If there is a conflict, God's authoritative Word takes precedence over man's reason. I also agree with Luther that we are not to explore the hidden side of God, that side He does not reveal to us via His Word (Scripture and Jesus). I believe Satan does everything he can to deceive us, cause us to doubt, cause us to believe we are the most important item in the universe. Satan rarely, if ever, attacks head on; frequently there is just a slight bending of the truth, enough to still sound good and reasonable and will deceive unless we are quite well versed (pun intended). Most heretics start out by trying to explain something that is unclear and not revealed in Scripture. Scripture is clear that God has/is allowing Satan to roam the earth and create havoc for reasons God knows. So, here is my response:

The end will not come until all have heard the gospel (Mt 28:19-20, Mk 13:10). That addresses your comment about people who through no fault of their own have not heard. Thus, if they do not believe after hearing the gospel, it is their own fault. All we can do is pray that God gives them the gifts of repentance and faith. It is only our job to proclaim the Word, tell others of the gospel; it is not our job to browbeat them into believing.

1. I do not know. I think it is entirely possible that a person, including the precious daughter in your example, can confess belief in Christ on their deathbed. Think about the thief on the cross next to Jesus who Jesus said will be with Him today in paradise. I also believe that God can do anything He wants and that his thoughts are not our thoughts (Is 55:8-11) and anything we speculate is just that, speculation to no good end. I believe God is a God of mercy as well as a God of wrath. That said, I believe Scripture is very clear about what happens to unbelievers after their death and about those that teach heretical ideas (for example: Mt 13, Mt 22, Lk 13, Rev 20), there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth.

2. It seems to me if there is no pain, no tears, no death, and no mourning we will be quite joyful (happy, completely at peace) in the new Creation (Rev 21:4). How that happens, or if we will remember loved ones who are not with us, I have no idea.


Bottom line is God is God and I’m not. I must say however that I too have many questions like you that are unanswerable by Scripture on this side of the Last Day. I think that is a natural human tendency and the solution is continual repentance and continually remembering that I am a baptized child of God, forgiven for Jesus’ sake and what He did on the cross for us all. Thanks be to God and my parents that I was baptized as an infant at which time I received the Holy Spirit that enables me to know Jesus.

Blessings.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Stillwaters » Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:06 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:08 pm
Stillwaters wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:05 pm
I remain fascinated by the “Gate is Narrow” viewpoint. If I understand Mountaineer and Xan’s position correctly…most of humanity will be damned for eternity. Many through no fault of their own (raised in different culture, religion, never exposed to Christianity, etc.). Others are damned because they have heard the word but “Do Not Get It” or as others have said “I can’t make myself believe in Santa Claus”. This would mean “billions” in torment.(perhaps 100’s of billions if the 2nd coming is delayed another thousand years). In any event, this mass damnation is very abstract and does not carry much emotional heft.

I would like instead to bring it down to a more personal level. I want to present a very real situation (but we can call it hypothetical) that does occur and see how Mountaineer and Xan would handle it. Say that a very good friend (a Believer) of yours has a daughter who he loves beyond almost anything in this life. She and he have a very close relationship with many common interests. She is also very devoted to her father. She is now an adult with her own family and she is NOT a Believer. They have had many discussions regarding his Faith but it is very clear that she no longer has the faith (and perhaps never really had it due to other outside influences over the years). She is very forthright that she has no interest in this subject matter any further and has told her Dad that this topic is now off limits. Any further broaching of the issue could irreparably damage the relationship. This close friend comes to you very distraught with two questions:

1) Is my precious daughter going to suffer in Hell for eternity? (you have to be honest even though he is your friend)

2) If she is to suffer for eternity how can I possibly be happy in Heaven?

Not to jump the gun on #2 but I would assume that God would have to erase from him any memory of her. If this is the answer, then he has in fact been re-programmed like a machine, and the true love between them and by extension all humans is not of true sacred lasting value, eternal of otherwise.

Again, any response in your own words (vs. Scripture or other reference material) is most appreciated.
Stillwaters, thanks for the ongoing discussion; I'll do my best to address your questions.

First of all, it is important to again mention my presuppositions to refresh you on where I’m coming from with my answers. I believe Scripture is inspired and for practical purposes inerrant (i.e. use an accurate translation(s)) when taken in context and that Scripture interprets Scripture with the clearer passages helping to understand the less clear. That means I believe Scripture is God’s authoritative Word and includes all He wants us to know which is sufficient for our salvation. If there is a conflict, God's authoritative Word takes precedence over man's reason. I also agree with Luther that we are not to explore the hidden side of God, that side He does not reveal to us via His Word (Scripture and Jesus). I believe Satan does everything he can to deceive us, cause us to doubt, cause us to believe we are the most important item in the universe. Satan rarely, if ever, attacks head on; frequently there is just a slight bending of the truth, enough to still sound good and reasonable and will deceive unless we are quite well versed (pun intended). Most heretics start out by trying to explain something that is unclear and not revealed in Scripture. Scripture is clear that God has/is allowing Satan to roam the earth and create havoc for reasons God knows. So, here is my response:

The end will not come until all have heard the gospel (Mt 28:19-20, Mk 13:10). That addresses your comment about people who through no fault of their own have not heard. Thus, if they do not believe after hearing the gospel, it is their own fault. All we can do is pray that God gives them the gifts of repentance and faith. It is only our job to proclaim the Word, tell others of the gospel; it is not our job to browbeat them into believing.

1. I do not know. I think it is entirely possible that a person, including the precious daughter in your example, can confess belief in Christ on their deathbed. Think about the thief on the cross next to Jesus who Jesus said will be with Him today in paradise. I also believe that God can do anything He wants and that his thoughts are not our thoughts (Is 55:8-11) and anything we speculate is just that, speculation to no good end. I believe God is a God of mercy as well as a God of wrath. That said, I believe Scripture is very clear about what happens to unbelievers after their death and about those that teach heretical ideas (for example: Mt 13, Mt 22, Lk 13, Rev 20), there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth.

2. It seems to me if there is no pain, no tears, no death, and no mourning we will be quite joyful (happy, completely at peace) in the new Creation (Rev 21:4). How that happens, or if we will remember loved ones who are not with us, I have no idea.


Bottom line is God is God and I’m not. I must say however that I too have many questions like you that are unanswerable by Scripture on this side of the Last Day. I think that is a natural human tendency and the solution is continual repentance and continually remembering that I am a baptized child of God, forgiven for Jesus’ sake and what He did on the cross for us all. Thanks be to God and my parents that I was baptized as an infant at which time I received the Holy Spirit that enables me to know Jesus.

Blessings.
Mountaineer,

Thank you for what I consider a very solid and straight forward response to my questions. This is new to me that ALL will hear the word no matter what historical age, culture, geographic location or mental aptitude. Not something that has been emphasized by other Christians. This of course assumes that an enormous mass of humanity, those already dead, will be brought back to life in order to hear the word that have not heard the word. That is quite an interesting interpretation of scripture. That only leaves those that "can’t believe even if they want to” and what a terrible deal for them.

Back to the friend example though. Let me change the set-up just slightly because I don’t believe speculation is fruitless when it comes to such a life and death matter. Lets say your good friend came to you two days after his daughter perished in a car accident. Now there is no chance for a death bed conversion. Her fate is sealed. I am still trying to image what you would tell your friend to comfort him without twisting scripture which is quite clear on the matter. In this scenario, I would imagine there is nothing you can do to comfort him. If his faith is true and without doubt he should be in an awful state (needing counseling, meds, unable to focus and work) for the remainder of his life. Imagine someone told you that your daughter will fall into the hands of ISIS and be tortured forever. You would be occupied with worry and trepidation on a daily basis.

The love of a child often eclipses one’s own personal wants and desires. I would also guess that there be many a parent who would take a bargain with God and swap for their daughter. In other words, trading one's salvation (including the selfish element for pleasure and continuance that many have) for the life, love and happiness of a child. Here is my observation though: There are innumerable households in this situation where a Spouse, Brother, Sister, Son or Daughter is lacking in Faith. If the believers in these households really believed in the Hell aspect of the teaching they would be in a near continuous tizzy and sense of urgency over the fate of their loved ones. Yet we are not seeing this. It's as if this idea is either being suppressed in the subconscious or what I really suspect…there is great doubt among MOST believers that this aspect of the teaching is true.

This brings me to the topic of doubt. There is an example in my own circle of a very fundamentalist family losing their seventeen old son due to an unexpected tragedy. A year later this family is still unconsolable. I spoke with a fundamentalist friend of mine and ask this question: "If this family truly believes that they will be with their son for eternity, after just a few more decades of their own lives, why are they so incapacitated? I would expect them to be sad and miss him but not experiencing the pain of those with permanent loss”. My friend did not have an explanation for me. So here are my next three main questions if you have the patience to bear with me:

1) What would you tell your friend about his daughter that had perished in the car crash faithless? Is there any hope you can give him without butchering scripture interpretation or resorting to the empty “cannot know Gods mind"? I would think your friend's remaining life will ultimately be shattered by the situation. What mental suffering lies ahead!

2) I have heard it said that faith ranges from weak to absolute. Does it matter how much doubt/faith one has with regards to being saved?
In other words, would the faith of a mustard seed be enough for salvation?…this would change the calculus quite a bit. Surely the Church must provide some guidance between soft belief and ALL IN Belief, otherwise why even distinguish Faith this way?

3) You had mentioned quite awhile back in this thread that, and I am paraphrasing: “My daughter has a stronger faith than me”. Does that mean that you carry some doubt no matter how small even now? If not, what did that mean? From your responses to most on this thread (over the years) you never give any ground. Not even simple statements like “that’s an interesting perspective that I haven’t thought about and I could see why that would cause unbelief”. Your answers are alway brimming with confidence and absolute in nature. Even questions that bother Theologian Scholars and Christian Apologists roll off you like Teflon. I detect NO DOUBT or conversely ABSOLUTE FAITH.


Thanks again for taking the time to respond to these incessant questions. I promise to slow way down in the days/weeks ahead.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:11 am

Stillwaters wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:06 pm
Mountaineer wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:08 pm
Stillwaters wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:05 pm
I remain fascinated by the “Gate is Narrow” viewpoint. If I understand Mountaineer and Xan’s position correctly…most of humanity will be damned for eternity. Many through no fault of their own (raised in different culture, religion, never exposed to Christianity, etc.). Others are damned because they have heard the word but “Do Not Get It” or as others have said “I can’t make myself believe in Santa Claus”. This would mean “billions” in torment.(perhaps 100’s of billions if the 2nd coming is delayed another thousand years). In any event, this mass damnation is very abstract and does not carry much emotional heft.

I would like instead to bring it down to a more personal level. I want to present a very real situation (but we can call it hypothetical) that does occur and see how Mountaineer and Xan would handle it. Say that a very good friend (a Believer) of yours has a daughter who he loves beyond almost anything in this life. She and he have a very close relationship with many common interests. She is also very devoted to her father. She is now an adult with her own family and she is NOT a Believer. They have had many discussions regarding his Faith but it is very clear that she no longer has the faith (and perhaps never really had it due to other outside influences over the years). She is very forthright that she has no interest in this subject matter any further and has told her Dad that this topic is now off limits. Any further broaching of the issue could irreparably damage the relationship. This close friend comes to you very distraught with two questions:

1) Is my precious daughter going to suffer in Hell for eternity? (you have to be honest even though he is your friend)

2) If she is to suffer for eternity how can I possibly be happy in Heaven?

Not to jump the gun on #2 but I would assume that God would have to erase from him any memory of her. If this is the answer, then he has in fact been re-programmed like a machine, and the true love between them and by extension all humans is not of true sacred lasting value, eternal of otherwise.

Again, any response in your own words (vs. Scripture or other reference material) is most appreciated.
Stillwaters, thanks for the ongoing discussion; I'll do my best to address your questions.

First of all, it is important to again mention my presuppositions to refresh you on where I’m coming from with my answers. I believe Scripture is inspired and for practical purposes inerrant (i.e. use an accurate translation(s)) when taken in context and that Scripture interprets Scripture with the clearer passages helping to understand the less clear. That means I believe Scripture is God’s authoritative Word and includes all He wants us to know which is sufficient for our salvation. If there is a conflict, God's authoritative Word takes precedence over man's reason. I also agree with Luther that we are not to explore the hidden side of God, that side He does not reveal to us via His Word (Scripture and Jesus). I believe Satan does everything he can to deceive us, cause us to doubt, cause us to believe we are the most important item in the universe. Satan rarely, if ever, attacks head on; frequently there is just a slight bending of the truth, enough to still sound good and reasonable and will deceive unless we are quite well versed (pun intended). Most heretics start out by trying to explain something that is unclear and not revealed in Scripture. Scripture is clear that God has/is allowing Satan to roam the earth and create havoc for reasons God knows. So, here is my response:

The end will not come until all have heard the gospel (Mt 28:19-20, Mk 13:10). That addresses your comment about people who through no fault of their own have not heard. Thus, if they do not believe after hearing the gospel, it is their own fault. All we can do is pray that God gives them the gifts of repentance and faith. It is only our job to proclaim the Word, tell others of the gospel; it is not our job to browbeat them into believing.

1. I do not know. I think it is entirely possible that a person, including the precious daughter in your example, can confess belief in Christ on their deathbed. Think about the thief on the cross next to Jesus who Jesus said will be with Him today in paradise. I also believe that God can do anything He wants and that his thoughts are not our thoughts (Is 55:8-11) and anything we speculate is just that, speculation to no good end. I believe God is a God of mercy as well as a God of wrath. That said, I believe Scripture is very clear about what happens to unbelievers after their death and about those that teach heretical ideas (for example: Mt 13, Mt 22, Lk 13, Rev 20), there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth.

2. It seems to me if there is no pain, no tears, no death, and no mourning we will be quite joyful (happy, completely at peace) in the new Creation (Rev 21:4). How that happens, or if we will remember loved ones who are not with us, I have no idea.


Bottom line is God is God and I’m not. I must say however that I too have many questions like you that are unanswerable by Scripture on this side of the Last Day. I think that is a natural human tendency and the solution is continual repentance and continually remembering that I am a baptized child of God, forgiven for Jesus’ sake and what He did on the cross for us all. Thanks be to God and my parents that I was baptized as an infant at which time I received the Holy Spirit that enables me to know Jesus.

Blessings.
Mountaineer,

Thank you for what I consider a very solid and straight forward response to my questions. This is new to me that ALL will hear the word no matter what historical age, culture, geographic location or mental aptitude. Not something that has been emphasized by other Christians. This of course assumes that an enormous mass of humanity, those already dead, will be brought back to life in order to hear the word that have not heard the word. That is quite an interesting interpretation of scripture. That only leaves those that "can’t believe even if they want to” and what a terrible deal for them.

Back to the friend example though. Let me change the set-up just slightly because I don’t believe speculation is fruitless when it comes to such a life and death matter. Lets say your good friend came to you two days after his daughter perished in a car accident. Now there is no chance for a death bed conversion. Her fate is sealed. I am still trying to image what you would tell your friend to comfort him without twisting scripture which is quite clear on the matter. In this scenario, I would imagine there is nothing you can do to comfort him. If his faith is true and without doubt he should be in an awful state (needing counseling, meds, unable to focus and work) for the remainder of his life. Imagine someone told you that your daughter will fall into the hands of ISIS and be tortured forever. You would be occupied with worry and trepidation on a daily basis.

The love of a child often eclipses one’s own personal wants and desires. I would also guess that there be many a parent who would take a bargain with God and swap for their daughter. In other words, trading one's salvation (including the selfish element for pleasure and continuance that many have) for the life, love and happiness of a child. Here is my observation though: There are innumerable households in this situation where a Spouse, Brother, Sister, Son or Daughter is lacking in Faith. If the believers in these households really believed in the Hell aspect of the teaching they would be in a near continuous tizzy and sense of urgency over the fate of their loved ones. Yet we are not seeing this. It's as if this idea is either being suppressed in the subconscious or what I really suspect…there is great doubt among MOST believers that this aspect of the teaching is true.

This brings me to the topic of doubt. There is an example in my own circle of a very fundamentalist family losing their seventeen old son due to an unexpected tragedy. A year later this family is still unconsolable. I spoke with a fundamentalist friend of mine and ask this question: "If this family truly believes that they will be with their son for eternity, after just a few more decades of their own lives, why are they so incapacitated? I would expect them to be sad and miss him but not experiencing the pain of those with permanent loss”. My friend did not have an explanation for me. So here are my next three main questions if you have the patience to bear with me:

1) What would you tell your friend about his daughter that had perished in the car crash faithless? Is there any hope you can give him without butchering scripture interpretation or resorting to the empty “cannot know Gods mind"? I would think your friend's remaining life will ultimately be shattered by the situation. What mental suffering lies ahead!

2) I have heard it said that faith ranges from weak to absolute. Does it matter how much doubt/faith one has with regards to being saved?
In other words, would the faith of a mustard seed be enough for salvation?…this would change the calculus quite a bit. Surely the Church must provide some guidance between soft belief and ALL IN Belief, otherwise why even distinguish Faith this way?

3) You had mentioned quite awhile back in this thread that, and I am paraphrasing: “My daughter has a stronger faith than me”. Does that mean that you carry some doubt no matter how small even now? If not, what did that mean? From your responses to most on this thread (over the years) you never give any ground. Not even simple statements like “that’s an interesting perspective that I haven’t thought about and I could see why that would cause unbelief”. Your answers are alway brimming with confidence and absolute in nature. Even questions that bother Theologian Scholars and Christian Apologists roll off you like Teflon. I detect NO DOUBT or conversely ABSOLUTE FAITH.


Thanks again for taking the time to respond to these incessant questions. I promise to slow way down in the days/weeks ahead.
Stillwaters, I enjoy our conversations. Here is my response to your three questions:

1. I would tell my friend that I cannot begin to understand the depth of his feelings, the sense of loss, the grief, as I have not yet experienced such painful feelings as he seems to have. I would also tell my friend that I’m here with you, to pray with you, to talk with you, to hug you, to cry with you, to just be with you. You are not alone. When my friend is ready, I would read Scripture with him, probably a lot of the Psalms as they deal with the diversity of human feelings from despair to joy. I would remember that even Jesus cried out on the cross - My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? (Psalm 22). I would also pray for my friend that the Holy Spirit would bring him peace and comfort. I know and trust that God works all things for His good purposes even though I or my friend may not understand why, where, when or how. I would remember the five solas - grace alone, faith alone, Scripture alone, Christ alone, to the glory of God alone. I would remember God is in charge, not me and not my friend.

2. The Scriptures are full of accounts about varying faith: Peter walking on water, and when he took his eyes off Jesus he sunk; Doubting Thomas; Jesus frequently rebuking his disciples for their weak faith. We are simultaneously 100% sinner and 100% saint - sinners sin because they are sinners. We are saints because Jesus declared us so. Sinners do not have perfect faith, or perfect anything else. I am saved because I confess Jesus is Lord (in various forms such as the three creeds) and trust in the promises of Jesus. I know that God can do anything, and I know Scripture clearly says what is required to be saved. God may use other methods or save others that do not follow what is said in Scripture, but I’m going to go with what He chose to reveal to us and not what isn’t said. And, as I’ve said before, I cannot determine what is in the heart of others from their conception forward about their belief regardless of whether they say they believe or say they do not believe; that is God’s job and way above my pay grade.

3. See my response to 2. I KNOW I am saved because Jesus says so because I confess ‘Jesus is Lord’. I also know that I can fall away if I do not routinely go to where I receive Jesus via the Word and Sacraments. A poor analogy but probably makes my point: If I want to live on this earth for a long time I must routinely breath oxygen and drink liquids and eat food. I can skip a few breaths or meals, but if I skip many consecutive breaths or meals I shall perish.

I hope this addresses your questions. Best wishes.

Blessings.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Stillwaters » Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:31 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:11 am
Stillwaters wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:06 pm
Mountaineer wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:08 pm


Stillwaters, thanks for the ongoing discussion; I'll do my best to address your questions.

First of all, it is important to again mention my presuppositions to refresh you on where I’m coming from with my answers. I believe Scripture is inspired and for practical purposes inerrant (i.e. use an accurate translation(s)) when taken in context and that Scripture interprets Scripture with the clearer passages helping to understand the less clear. That means I believe Scripture is God’s authoritative Word and includes all He wants us to know which is sufficient for our salvation. If there is a conflict, God's authoritative Word takes precedence over man's reason. I also agree with Luther that we are not to explore the hidden side of God, that side He does not reveal to us via His Word (Scripture and Jesus). I believe Satan does everything he can to deceive us, cause us to doubt, cause us to believe we are the most important item in the universe. Satan rarely, if ever, attacks head on; frequently there is just a slight bending of the truth, enough to still sound good and reasonable and will deceive unless we are quite well versed (pun intended). Most heretics start out by trying to explain something that is unclear and not revealed in Scripture. Scripture is clear that God has/is allowing Satan to roam the earth and create havoc for reasons God knows. So, here is my response:

The end will not come until all have heard the gospel (Mt 28:19-20, Mk 13:10). That addresses your comment about people who through no fault of their own have not heard. Thus, if they do not believe after hearing the gospel, it is their own fault. All we can do is pray that God gives them the gifts of repentance and faith. It is only our job to proclaim the Word, tell others of the gospel; it is not our job to browbeat them into believing.

1. I do not know. I think it is entirely possible that a person, including the precious daughter in your example, can confess belief in Christ on their deathbed. Think about the thief on the cross next to Jesus who Jesus said will be with Him today in paradise. I also believe that God can do anything He wants and that his thoughts are not our thoughts (Is 55:8-11) and anything we speculate is just that, speculation to no good end. I believe God is a God of mercy as well as a God of wrath. That said, I believe Scripture is very clear about what happens to unbelievers after their death and about those that teach heretical ideas (for example: Mt 13, Mt 22, Lk 13, Rev 20), there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth.

2. It seems to me if there is no pain, no tears, no death, and no mourning we will be quite joyful (happy, completely at peace) in the new Creation (Rev 21:4). How that happens, or if we will remember loved ones who are not with us, I have no idea.


Bottom line is God is God and I’m not. I must say however that I too have many questions like you that are unanswerable by Scripture on this side of the Last Day. I think that is a natural human tendency and the solution is continual repentance and continually remembering that I am a baptized child of God, forgiven for Jesus’ sake and what He did on the cross for us all. Thanks be to God and my parents that I was baptized as an infant at which time I received the Holy Spirit that enables me to know Jesus.

Blessings.
Mountaineer,

Thank you for what I consider a very solid and straight forward response to my questions. This is new to me that ALL will hear the word no matter what historical age, culture, geographic location or mental aptitude. Not something that has been emphasized by other Christians. This of course assumes that an enormous mass of humanity, those already dead, will be brought back to life in order to hear the word that have not heard the word. That is quite an interesting interpretation of scripture. That only leaves those that "can’t believe even if they want to” and what a terrible deal for them.

Back to the friend example though. Let me change the set-up just slightly because I don’t believe speculation is fruitless when it comes to such a life and death matter. Lets say your good friend came to you two days after his daughter perished in a car accident. Now there is no chance for a death bed conversion. Her fate is sealed. I am still trying to image what you would tell your friend to comfort him without twisting scripture which is quite clear on the matter. In this scenario, I would imagine there is nothing you can do to comfort him. If his faith is true and without doubt he should be in an awful state (needing counseling, meds, unable to focus and work) for the remainder of his life. Imagine someone told you that your daughter will fall into the hands of ISIS and be tortured forever. You would be occupied with worry and trepidation on a daily basis.

The love of a child often eclipses one’s own personal wants and desires. I would also guess that there be many a parent who would take a bargain with God and swap for their daughter. In other words, trading one's salvation (including the selfish element for pleasure and continuance that many have) for the life, love and happiness of a child. Here is my observation though: There are innumerable households in this situation where a Spouse, Brother, Sister, Son or Daughter is lacking in Faith. If the believers in these households really believed in the Hell aspect of the teaching they would be in a near continuous tizzy and sense of urgency over the fate of their loved ones. Yet we are not seeing this. It's as if this idea is either being suppressed in the subconscious or what I really suspect…there is great doubt among MOST believers that this aspect of the teaching is true.

This brings me to the topic of doubt. There is an example in my own circle of a very fundamentalist family losing their seventeen old son due to an unexpected tragedy. A year later this family is still unconsolable. I spoke with a fundamentalist friend of mine and ask this question: "If this family truly believes that they will be with their son for eternity, after just a few more decades of their own lives, why are they so incapacitated? I would expect them to be sad and miss him but not experiencing the pain of those with permanent loss”. My friend did not have an explanation for me. So here are my next three main questions if you have the patience to bear with me:

1) What would you tell your friend about his daughter that had perished in the car crash faithless? Is there any hope you can give him without butchering scripture interpretation or resorting to the empty “cannot know Gods mind"? I would think your friend's remaining life will ultimately be shattered by the situation. What mental suffering lies ahead!

2) I have heard it said that faith ranges from weak to absolute. Does it matter how much doubt/faith one has with regards to being saved?
In other words, would the faith of a mustard seed be enough for salvation?…this would change the calculus quite a bit. Surely the Church must provide some guidance between soft belief and ALL IN Belief, otherwise why even distinguish Faith this way?

3) You had mentioned quite awhile back in this thread that, and I am paraphrasing: “My daughter has a stronger faith than me”. Does that mean that you carry some doubt no matter how small even now? If not, what did that mean? From your responses to most on this thread (over the years) you never give any ground. Not even simple statements like “that’s an interesting perspective that I haven’t thought about and I could see why that would cause unbelief”. Your answers are alway brimming with confidence and absolute in nature. Even questions that bother Theologian Scholars and Christian Apologists roll off you like Teflon. I detect NO DOUBT or conversely ABSOLUTE FAITH.


Thanks again for taking the time to respond to these incessant questions. I promise to slow way down in the days/weeks ahead.
Stillwaters, I enjoy our conversations. Here is my response to your three questions:

1. I would tell my friend that I cannot begin to understand the depth of his feelings, the sense of loss, the grief, as I have not yet experienced such painful feelings as he seems to have. I would also tell my friend that I’m here with you, to pray with you, to talk with you, to hug you, to cry with you, to just be with you. You are not alone. When my friend is ready, I would read Scripture with him, probably a lot of the Psalms as they deal with the diversity of human feelings from despair to joy. I would remember that even Jesus cried out on the cross - My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? (Psalm 22). I would also pray for my friend that the Holy Spirit would bring him peace and comfort. I know and trust that God works all things for His good purposes even though I or my friend may not understand why, where, when or how. I would remember the five solas - grace alone, faith alone, Scripture alone, Christ alone, to the glory of God alone. I would remember God is in charge, not me and not my friend.

2. The Scriptures are full of accounts about varying faith: Peter walking on water, and when he took his eyes off Jesus he sunk; Doubting Thomas; Jesus frequently rebuking his disciples for their weak faith. We are simultaneously 100% sinner and 100% saint - sinners sin because they are sinners. We are saints because Jesus declared us so. Sinners do not have perfect faith, or perfect anything else. I am saved because I confess Jesus is Lord (in various forms such as the three creeds) and trust in the promises of Jesus. I know that God can do anything, and I know Scripture clearly says what is required to be saved. God may use other methods or save others that do not follow what is said in Scripture, but I’m going to go with what He chose to reveal to us and not what isn’t said. And, as I’ve said before, I cannot determine what is in the heart of others from their conception forward about their belief regardless of whether they say they believe or say they do not believe; that is God’s job and way above my pay grade.

3. See my response to 2. I KNOW I am saved because Jesus says so because I confess ‘Jesus is Lord’. I also know that I can fall away if I do not routinely go to where I receive Jesus via the Word and Sacraments. A poor analogy but probably makes my point: If I want to live on this earth for a long time I must routinely breath oxygen and drink liquids and eat food. I can skip a few breaths or meals, but if I skip many consecutive breaths or meals I shall perish.

I hope this addresses your questions. Best wishes.

Blessings.
Mountaineer,

Thanks again for your responses and the conversation in general. Nice response to your hypothetical friend in #1 by the way.

I did find one of your statements in Question #2 to be interesting. Specifically: "God may use other methods or save others that do not follow what is said in Scripture, but I’m going to go with what He chose to reveal to us and not what isn’t said.” That point of view seems to offer hope for those who simply cannot believe. Its suggests that Christianity/God could possibly have some wiggle room depending on circumstances that can’t be known because they are not spelled out in Scripture. I certainly see the logic of following the Word to the tee if one has the ability to believe (to greatly increase the odds of success). Ultimately I find the fear based aspect of the teaching (Hell) to be counterproductive in bringing more thoughtful or educated or sensitive people to the faith. I also found the quotes in the link from Hal’s post from the OT to be an interesting contradiction to the NT stance on the issue. I guess the mystery of how to choose between two contradictions will never be clear to me because resolving them in “context” can be such a subjective endeavor.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:43 pm

Just interjecting here real quick: Hal's quote is from Ecclesiastes, which is a weird book. It's basically a book of the Bible that excludes God, in other words, it describes life when lived purely as a "creature" rather than a child of God.

Luther's introduction includes:
"in this book Solomon is speaking simply about the human race and is clearly confining himself within the limits of human nature."

So when Hal's quote says that men die just like animals with no difference, that's in that context. I hope I'm describing this correctly because I'm really not certain I quite understand the point of view of Ecclesiastes myself.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by jacksonM » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:03 pm

Xan wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:43 pm
Just interjecting here real quick: Hal's quote is from Ecclesiastes, which is a weird book. It's basically a book of the Bible that excludes God, in other words, it describes life when lived purely as a "creature" rather than a child of God.
Thou aren't not far from the Kingdom of God Xan.

(P.S. - my mother died today. I helped convert her to Christianity so I hope she is enjoying a blessed eternity).
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:46 am

jacksonM wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:03 pm
Xan wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:43 pm
Just interjecting here real quick: Hal's quote is from Ecclesiastes, which is a weird book. It's basically a book of the Bible that excludes God, in other words, it describes life when lived purely as a "creature" rather than a child of God.
Thou aren't not far from the Kingdom of God Xan.

(P.S. - my mother died today. I helped convert her to Christianity so I hope she is enjoying a blessed eternity).
JacksonM, I'm sorry for your loss. It is not easy to lose a parent.

May God comfort you as you deal with all that is to come.

Blessings.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:31 am

Very sorry to hear that, Jackson.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Stillwaters » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:39 pm

Condolences JacksonM and very sad to hear of your loss. I can, due to recent events, relate. We just lost our Dear next door neighbor last night. Lost my Father last year and Mother-in-law in November. The pre-Baby Boomer generation is rapidly moving on. :'( Stay well!
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:54 pm

Stillwaters wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:39 pm
Condolences JacksonM and very sad to hear of your loss. I can, due to recent events, relate. We just lost our Dear next door neighbor last night. Lost my Father last year and Mother-in-law in November. The pre-Baby Boomer generation is rapidly moving on. :'( Stay well!
Wow Stillwaters! That is a lot of loss in a short period of time. My condolences to you as well as Jackson. :'(

Blessings.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by jacksonM » Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:10 am

I appreciate all the condolences. My mother was 98 so she lived a good, long life. I wasn't there but I heard she was saying "Jesus is Lord" on her death bed for the last few days. Having been raised Catholic, she had also asked for the last rites to be performed to cover all bases.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:21 am

There are two basic themes in Holy Scripture. One is called the Law and one is called the Gospel. Both are from God and both are holy, both are necessary, and both are needed. The Law always focuses on the action or inaction of a person. It makes demands in the form of commands regarding what to do and prohibitions regarding what not to do. The Law reveals the problem of sin. The Gospel always focuses on the action of God to save us through His Son, Jesus Christ. It makes no demands upon us whatsoever, but showers blessings upon us. It is a happy proclamation of what God freely gives us through Jesus. Jesus does all the work; we do none of it. Instead of giving commandments and prohibitions, the Gospel gives promises and assurances.

The problem is that many Christians are not aware of the distinction, and as a result, they painfully confuse God’s Word. If the difference between Law and Gospel is unknown, then the Scriptures appear to be full of contradictions. If the difference, however, is known, then the relationship becomes elegant, exciting, and powerful. If people don’t think they have a problem, then they will never be interested in a solution. God’s Law is designed to be used by the Holy Spirit to convince people they have a problem. However, no one can convince others they need to confess their sin to God and seek God’s help for their problem of sin. This is something God Himself must do. He uses means to do that: proclamation of the Word via hearing and reading Scripture, baptism (water plus Word) gives the Holy Spirit, the Lord’s Supper (bread and wine plus Word) gives us Christ Himself, and Confession and Absolution assures us our sins are forgiven. Christians must wait on the Holy Spirit to work when and where He pleases to work in the hearts of people as only He can. This does not contradict that God desires all people to be saved; it reminds us that the timing for when faith comes is always in the hands of God.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by jacksonM » Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:57 am

Mountaineer wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:21 am
There are two basic themes in Holy Scripture. One is called the Law and one is called the Gospel. Both are from God and both are holy, both are necessary, and both are needed. The Law always focuses on the action or inaction of a person. It makes demands in the form of commands regarding what to do and prohibitions regarding what not to do. The Law reveals the problem of sin. The Gospel always focuses on the action of God to save us through His Son, Jesus Christ. It makes no demands upon us whatsoever, but showers blessings upon us. It is a happy proclamation of what God freely gives us through Jesus. Jesus does all the work; we do none of it. Instead of giving commandments and prohibitions, the Gospel gives promises and assurances.

The problem is that many Christians are not aware of the distinction, and as a result, they painfully confuse God’s Word. If the difference between Law and Gospel is unknown, then the Scriptures appear to be full of contradictions. If the difference, however, is known, then the relationship becomes elegant, exciting, and powerful. If people don’t think they have a problem, then they will never be interested in a solution. God’s Law is designed to be used by the Holy Spirit to convince people they have a problem. However, no one can convince others they need to confess their sin to God and seek God’s help for their problem of sin. This is something God Himself must do. He uses means to do that: proclamation of the Word via hearing and reading Scripture, baptism (water plus Word) gives the Holy Spirit, the Lord’s Supper (bread and wine plus Word) gives us Christ Himself, and Confession and Absolution assures us our sins are forgiven. Christians must wait on the Holy Spirit to work when and where He pleases to work in the hearts of people as only He can. This does not contradict that God desires all people to be saved; it reminds us that the timing for when faith comes is always in the hands of God.
It's only painfully confusing if you believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God and have to reconcile it in your own mind. Then it does get very painful, based on my own experience.

For example, an unbeliever might try reading the gospel of Matthew and then turn over to the epistles of Paul and wonder why he never read the book, since the teachings of Jesus about keeping the law seem to directly refute him on the subject.

It's actually pretty simple to reconcile if you look at it from a human perspective. Paul, indeed, did not read the gospel of Matthew or any of the others since they were all written well after his ministry. If he was aware of anything that Jesus was actually supposed to have said, he doesn't mention it in any of his writings. And as for seeming to directly refute a lot of Pauline Christianity, Matthew appears to be a rewrite of Mark to make Jesus more thoroughly Jewish and that is probably exactly what the author intended. Some of the passages in the Sermon on the Mount seem to be specifically referring to the Pauline Christians with whom the early Jewish sects were in conflict. That conflict was quite real in the early church based on what little we know of the competing sects and it's also pretty obvious in the N.T. although glossed over in places ( I also believe "Balaam" in the book of Revelations is most likely referring to Paul, telling you what a lot of early Christians really felt about him).

It could be that God intended for the guiding hand of the church to come along and sort out the mess and give us what would eventually become orthodox Christianity. The argument against that is the fact that Christians still can't agree on the subject.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:24 am

What do we do when Jesus refuses to do the miracles we want - when He won't speak - when we are face to face with a silent God? We can do what Herod did - reject, mock, and send Jesus away. Or, with the help of the Holy Spirit, we can humble ourselves and trust in Him, knowing that He will do what is best. After all, that's what Jesus did after Herod's interview. He went on to suffer, to die, and to rise again - so that He could bring all of us who trust Him to eternal life.

Prayer: Dear Father, help us to trust in You even when You are silent and we are afraid or grieving. Amen.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by jacksonM » Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:21 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:24 am
What do we do when Jesus refuses to do the miracles we want - when He won't speak - when we are face to face with a silent God?
I never had either of these problems when I was a Christian. You learn early on that Jesus doesn't do miracles today like he did back then.

As for God being silent I never had that problem either. All you need is an active imagination.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Ad Orientem » Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:15 pm

EUCHARIST, BISHOP, CHURCH: THE UNITY OF THE CHURCH IN THE DIVINE EUCHARIST AND THE BISHOP DURING THE FIRST THREE CENTURIES

Read it here...
http://www.oodegr.com/english/biblia/ep ... perieh.htm

This is neither short nor light reading.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:17 am

DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by jacksonM » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:45 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:17 am
Those Things Are Gone Now https://www.lhm.org/dailydevotions/defa ... e=20190709
Yeah, I was getting ready to boil a kid in its mother's milk just the other day until I remembered it was forbidden in the ten commandments (I mean the second set actually referred to as the ten commandments after Moses broke the originals. (Exodus 34).

Also, I was beating my slave just the other day until I remembered to make sure he didn't die for a day or two afterwards (Exodus 21).

"Thy word is a lamp to my feet and a light unto my path".
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