Is Trump doing a good job?

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stuper1
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by stuper1 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:59 pm

I didn't read the FA article for lack of time. In the Middle East we should have been out long time ago. We never should have been in. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

Where in the Constitution does it say that a guy has to show his tax returns in order to be president? If there is a problem with his taxes, the IRS should do something about it, and I'm sure they would in nothing flat. I assume he doesn't want to show his tax returns because there is stuff in there that would be blown out of proportion by the media, and the average Joe would have a hard time comprehending that it's actually no big thing. Probably his effective tax rate is less than 1% or something like that. Kind of like how Obama didn't want his college transcript to get out, and even his birth certificate for quite a while.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by moda0306 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:34 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:19 pm
moda0306 wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:42 pm
Libertarian666 wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:46 am


Here's a brief summary:

The most significant thing about Trump that is very different from any other US President in my lifetime is that he has been faced with the following since the day he has been elected, all of which are still ongoing:

1. A coup attempt by the Deep State, the existence of which is now acknowledged even by the New York Times
2. Nonstop 24/7 attacks by the "mainstream media"
3. A completely unconstitutional fake "impeachment inquiry" that affords him none of the rights that the Republicans afforded Clinton and that the Democrats afforded Nixon
4. Obstruction by the Democrat-controlled House, even on legislation that they said they were going to pass (USMCA, for example)

And yet he has still accomplished quite a bit of what he promised his supporters when he ran for election in 2016, including but not limited to the following:

1. Reducing our involvement in overseas wars
2. Reducing red tape to make it easier to operate a business
3. Reducing tensions in Asia (North Korea)
4. Prison reform (The First Step Act)
5. Nominating originalist federal judges
6. The lowest unemployment rate among all minorities since records have been kept

I think with this record and the Democrats' complete lack of achievements during their tenure as the majority in the House, he will be re-elected in a landslide of epic proportions.
A couple questions for you...

How is the impeachment inquiry "completely unconstitutional?"

What would you consider a "landslide of epic proportions," electorally?
So are we to assume that, other than the specifics of what constitutes a landslide (since former attorney Maddy already clarified the constitutional question), you agree with everything in Libertarian666's post?
No... not really. Maybe a few points.

And I would also reject your premise that Maddy clarified anything other than her (assuming Maddy is a her) subjective take. I'd imagine if you polled all attorneys, my guess is that millions, if not a majority, would state that Trump has committed impeachable offenses.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by Maddy » Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:37 pm

moda0306 wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:34 pm
And I would also reject your premise that Maddy clarified anything other than her (assuming Maddy is a her) subjective take. I'd imagine if you polled all attorneys, my guess is that millions, if not a majority, would state that Trump has committed impeachable offenses.
Well, those are the incendiary words we keep hearing from the proponents of impeachment, but, curiously, nobody seems to ever articulate exactly what those "impeachable offenses" are. First it was "collusion" with Russia (a term that has no legal meaning), then obstruction of justice (though I never once heard an even remotely viable legal argument there). Those allegations all proved to be baseless--in fact, fraudulent. Then we had an entirely new allegation about collusion with the Ukraine--an allegation that was revealed to have no merit at all with respect to Trump, but that did manage to crack wide open an ongoing criminal enterprise centered in the Ukraine involving many of the most rabid proponents of impeachment. (Wanna take the other side of my bet that the infamous computer server turns up there?) And then we got the anonymous whistleblower's allegations, whatever they were, which once again were thoroughly debunked, in part by a phony transcript later revealed to have literally been made up by a ranking member of the "D" team. I have no idea what new "offenses" are presently being discussed in the secret meetings of the democrat members of Congress, but if they had something, I'm quite sure we would know about it.

The vague, nonspecific allegations of "impeachable offenses" leveled against Trump have been a moving target from the beginning. As far as I can tell, it's never been anything more than specious rhetoric. The dems have, at every juncture, simply thrown linguini against the wall and hoped something--anything--would stick.

I honestly have no idea what particular "offense" you think is impeachable, but after three years of concerted investigation (to the exclusion of virtually all other Congressional business, and after employing every legal and illegal tactic imaginable), the dems still have nothing that can even be voted upon. If you know something they don't, let's hear it.
Last edited by Maddy on Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by stuper1 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:10 pm

Isn''t tweeting like a 13-year-old girl impeachable? If it's not, it should be. We need a new constitutional amendment just for that.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by Maddy » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:43 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:10 pm
Isn''t tweeting like a 13-year-old girl impeachable?
Only if she gets on the plane.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by drumminj » Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:43 pm

dualstow wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:41 pm
drumminj wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:10 am
I'm not sure if I'm this cynical or not, but does it really matter? Even if we have visibility to where the money is going, is the accountability there?

Don't get me wrong - I think transparency is important, but at this stage I'm not convinced it impacts the outcome in any way.
Not just important, but also 100% of what you said you liked about Trump (so far). It seems like a very selective love of transparency.
This thread has moved quite a bit since I was last able to participate, but you're right in that the core principal is transparency. I would however argue that the revelations that the media is biased and corrupt is novel, and put on display during Trump's candidacy and presidency in a way that is undeniable. Same with the corruption and....(sorry I can't think of a better word right now) insanity of the D party, specifically around the issues Maddy raises elsewhere in this thread.

I'd suggest everyone knows/believes/just shrugs about the fact much of our government is corrupt, spends money poorly, and does favors for their friends/those who give them money. I've come to the opinion that simply won't change without a reset -- "the people" simply are unwilling to vote for anything different, either at a state or federal level. Transparency into the misuse of government funds is largely academic at this point -- it happens, everyone knows it happens, and I just don't see how that will change. As shekels says, "who can you vote for that is going to change the Corrupt way Washington operates?"

Off-topic a bit, but while I agree policy-wise with Trump in many ways, part of my hope is rather than people simply "hating" the president, they come to the conclusion we need to drastically shrink the size and scope of government, especially at the federal level. Corruption means little without concentration of power.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by drumminj » Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:48 pm

Maddy wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:31 pm
How do you ever achieve accountability if the public isn't allowed to see what's going on? It seems likely that if the public knew where the $21 trillion missing from the DOD and HUD budgets went (see Professor Mark Skidmore's analysis on this), all hell would break loose on the DC establishment, as well as the putative back-door recipient(s) of those funds.
What does "all hell would break loose on the DC establishment" look like? The public has seen/been made aware of all kinds of shenanigans, yet folks don't end up in jail, and we just keep voting the same people into office and don't demand accountability.

I agree with you that accountability requires transparency. However, with the things that _are_ known, the reality is neither the DOJ nor the american public seem to hold folks accountable. So more transparency just means more things we know about that just get accepted as "how it works".

Our culture is devoid of consequences for bad actions on so many levels.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by WiseOne » Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:16 am

dualstow wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:44 pm
That's why I want to hear what you all think of his record thus far. Not his tweets, but his actions.
That's been the issue all along, hasn't it?

The media stories are always, ALWAYS about his tweets. If you choose to be distracted by that, and consider his tweets to be the sum total representation of his Presidency, then it would be easy to conclude that he's a disaster. And yes, it must be acknowledged that this is not just a deeply annoying habit, but frankly embarrassing and unbecoming. To me, this matters less than actions which will directly impact US citizens and will outlast his Presidency, but then I've always been a substance over style type.

I agree with Libertarian666 that he's accomplished a great deal so far. No, not everything has worked out perfectly - I think the China trade issues could have been handled better for example - but that's a standard very few, if any, Presidents have lived up to. Consider Obama. What did he accomplish? His post-2008 stimulus bill may or may not have been helpful for the economic recovery (I suspect it wasn't). There's Obamacare, which you can argue is good but could have been much better. He also imposed a raft of new regulations that are choking the healthcare system as well as clinical research to death. Obama also did more than any other president to increase covert surveillance on American citizens. Foreign policy-wise, he nailed Osama Bin Laden when he was already pretty much marginalized and conducted those infamous drone attacks. Honestly, that's not a lot. Yet, he's widely considered to have been highly successful. I don't disagree, but if that's the standard of a successful 2-term Presidency then I think it's pretty easy to argue that Trump (with one still-incomplete term) qualifies by a mile.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by dualstow » Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:34 am

WiseOne wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:16 am
dualstow wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:44 pm
That's why I want to hear what you all think of his record thus far. Not his tweets, but his actions.
That's been the issue all along, hasn't it?

The media stories are always, ALWAYS about his tweets.
Oh, I think a good example of media coverage of his actions would be the detention centers full of children.
That’s a tough one. I want him to be tough on illegal immigration and careful about the legal pathway as well, but that was unnecessary. Thankfully, Melania got him to reverse course.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by Xan » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:37 am

dualstow wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:34 am
WiseOne wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:16 am
dualstow wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:44 pm
That's why I want to hear what you all think of his record thus far. Not his tweets, but his actions.
That's been the issue all along, hasn't it?

The media stories are always, ALWAYS about his tweets.
Oh, I think a good example of media coverage of his actions would be the detention centers full of children.
That’s a tough one. I want him to be tough on illegal immigration and careful about the legal pathway as well, but that was unnecessary. Thankfully, Melania got him to reverse course.
I thought it was a result (a decade+ ago) of a judge ruling that it wasn't OK to incarcerate ostensibly innocent children along with their parents. Voila, child separation.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by dualstow » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:30 am

If that's the case, why were they effectively incarcerated (with or without parents)?
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by I Shrugged » Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:27 pm

I give him big points for tenacity. Subtract big points for personality. But, he's had the guts to take on the swamp and many deeply entrenched bad policies, and just keep pushing ahead. He's an inflationist, but aren't they all?

I have no doubt that the swamp will make sure he goes down in history as a criminal hack. But seeing this man expose the establishment has been great for me.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by dualstow » Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:09 pm

That’s kind of like what Shekels said.
Did we not know corruption existed before Trump came along? Insisting Obama was not American and then running for office. Did we not know of corruption before that?
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by jhogue » Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:58 pm

I doubt that it matters whether most people think that Trump is doing a good job or not. Consider the following:

Elizabeth Warren supporters are congenitally incapable of accepting that Donald Trump was elected President in 2016.

Bernie Sanders supporters insist that they do not know anyone who voted for Donald Trump.

Bill Maher and his audience really do believe that “the Donald” is Bozo the Clown AND the second coming of Adolf Hitler—without a hint of cognitive dissonance.
“Groucho Marx wrote:
A stock trader asked him, "Groucho, where do you put all your money?" Groucho was said to have replied, "In Treasury bonds", and the trader said, "You can't make much money on those." Groucho said, "You can if you have enough of them!"
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by dualstow » Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:04 pm

jhogue wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:58 pm
I doubt that it matters whether most people think that Trump is doing a good job or not.
He may very well be re-elected, but in the meantime I’m genuinely interested in your assessment.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by jhogue » Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:36 pm

Your query reminds me of the time that an American reporter asked Chinese premier Chou Enlai what he thought about the French Revolution. He pondered that matter for a moment, and then replied “Too soon to tell.”
“Groucho Marx wrote:
A stock trader asked him, "Groucho, where do you put all your money?" Groucho was said to have replied, "In Treasury bonds", and the trader said, "You can't make much money on those." Groucho said, "You can if you have enough of them!"
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by dualstow » Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:37 pm

hahaha O0
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by WiseOne » Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:45 am

dualstow wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:34 am
WiseOne wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:16 am
dualstow wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:44 pm
That's why I want to hear what you all think of his record thus far. Not his tweets, but his actions.
That's been the issue all along, hasn't it?

The media stories are always, ALWAYS about his tweets.
Oh, I think a good example of media coverage of his actions would be the detention centers full of children.
That’s a tough one. I want him to be tough on illegal immigration and careful about the legal pathway as well, but that was unnecessary. Thankfully, Melania got him to reverse course.
Yes, that's true - so ok, 0.1% of the coverage is about his actions and not tweets. The articles were quite slanted of course, because ICE didn't have a whole lot of options for dealing with the flood of unaccompanied minors being sent across the border. That's the true tragedy but no one talked about that. Because then you'd have to admit that the villains of the piece are the profiteering coyotes and organized crime syndicates, plus the random well-meaning American fools who went down to Central American countries to spread the word about the refugee loophole and help organize the caravans.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by dualstow » Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:54 am

WiseOne wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:45 am
Yes, that's true - so ok, 0.1% of the coverage is about his actions and not tweets.
It depends on the news source. I would agree that much of the news people consume, especially television channels like CNN, focus on easy targets like tweets. And that, of course is a shame.

Of course news on his actions is out there for those who seek it out.

Here’s some more of the same Foreign Affairs article, since 0% is about his tweets.
Each aspect of the Trump administration’s supposed new strategic triangle is misconceived, starting with Iran, a hostile would-be regional hegemon with a well-advanced nuclear program that Washington has been trying to contain for decades. In 2015, U.S. and European diplomats made a major breakthrough by negotiating the ... JCPOA, a classic multilateral arms control agreement ...
By the time Trump entered office, the agreement was functioning well in practice, and its inspections provided a high degree of confidence that Iran was not actively pursuing a nuclear weapons program.

The deal was hardly perfect.
...
So the obvious next step for any incoming administration would have been to build on the JCPOA and tackle the other issues on the docket. Instead, in May 2018, overruling then Secretary of State Rex Tillerson and Secretary of Defense James Mattis and blatantly lying about Iran’s compliance, Trump shredded the agreement.

This was partly due to Trump’s personal obsession with Barack Obama. Anything his predecessor had done had to be undone, and the Iran deal was Obama’s signature accomplishment.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by shekels » Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:25 am

dualstow wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:54 am
WiseOne wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:45 am
Yes, that's true - so ok, 0.1% of the coverage is about his actions and not tweets.
It depends on the news source. I would agree that much of the news people consume, especially television channels like CNN, focus on easy targets like tweets. And that, of course is a shame.

Of course news on his actions is out there for those who seek it out.

Here’s some more of the same Foreign Affairs article, since 0% is about his tweets.
Each aspect of the Trump administration’s supposed new strategic triangle is misconceived, starting with Iran, a hostile would-be regional hegemon with a well-advanced nuclear program that Washington has been trying to contain for decades. In 2015, U.S. and European diplomats made a major breakthrough by negotiating the ... JCPOA, a classic multilateral arms control agreement ...
By the time Trump entered office, the agreement was functioning well in practice, and its inspections provided a high degree of confidence that Iran was not actively pursuing a nuclear weapons program.

The deal was hardly perfect.
...
So the obvious next step for any incoming administration would have been to build on the JCPOA and tackle the other issues on the docket. Instead, in May 2018, overruling then Secretary of State Rex Tillerson and Secretary of Defense James Mattis and blatantly lying about Iran’s compliance, Trump shredded the agreement.

This was partly due to Trump’s personal obsession with Barack Obama. Anything his predecessor had done had to be undone, and the Iran deal was Obama’s signature accomplishment.
From what I understand the JCPOA was with IRAN the US, France, UK, China, Russia and Germany.
So if the U.S pulls out, that still leaves France, UK, China, Russia and Germany and Iran in the agreement right?

Or is the agreement null and void at that point?

If Iran still kept the agreement with the other remaining countries what is the problem?

Except now Iran has broken from a key component.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by dualstow » Sat Oct 26, 2019 1:38 pm

oh, Shekels, the agreement is a’shambles.
I’ll write more later, but with the U.S. pulling out, Iran understandably had no reason to continue to keep up their end of the bargain. (which they had been doing).
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by dualstow » Sat Oct 26, 2019 3:41 pm

Well, multiple reports say they had.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by I Shrugged » Sat Oct 26, 2019 3:50 pm

dualstow wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:09 pm
That’s kind of like what Shekels said.
Did we not know corruption existed before Trump came along? Insisting Obama was not American and then running for office. Did we not know of corruption before that?
The American public, I think, had very little idea about how smelly the swamp is.
I consider myself informed, and I had no idea about some of the inter-agency spying, dirty tricks, and so forth.

Likewise, I don't think the average American saw the media as being house organs of the Dem party. I did, but it wasn't as extreme as now. Now everyone can see it if they care to. At least, a great many people will see it.

It just seems to me that a Pandora's box has been opened. I always rooted for this and thought that if it happened, it would delegitimize the government, and that would be a good thing. Now I'm not as sure about the last part. Although still leaning that way.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by WiseOne » Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:01 am

dualstow wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 3:41 pm
Well, multiple reports say they had.
I've read both, so I genuinely don't know.

Is it really possible for a President, acting completely alone, to shred a signed treaty without (at the very least) some agreement within his administration? I have always thought there is an untold story here, and version we've been fed is way too simplistic. As, unfortunately, is the case with most things.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by shekels » Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:19 am

dualstow wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 1:38 pm
oh, Shekels, the agreement is a’shambles.
I’ll write more later, but with the U.S. pulling out, Iran understandably had no reason to continue to keep up their end of the bargain. (which they had been doing).
So I would guess the other countries in this agreement were window dressing.
I can see why the agreement was not all that great for the U.S.
But I just don't see that the U.S. is the only player here with Iran.
There were other countries involved.

Maybe I am looking at it as us vs them.
But why couldn't the agreement still go on without the U.S. involvement?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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