Is Trump doing a good job?

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dualstow
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by dualstow » Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:25 pm

Smith1776 wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:26 pm
Do those nameless and faceless soldiers have family? Kinda sad to think.
Watch episode 5- er, II. The fifth movie to come out in theaters.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by Kbg » Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:27 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:55 pm
That's actually a good perspective, although I'll pass on the snuff videos. I can't even watch the original Star Wars because I don't like watching all those Storm Troopers die. That's how much of a wuss I am.

Human nature is a terrible thing. I guess America feels that if it doesn't act as the world's policeman, then very bad things will happen. However, the blowback from acting as the world's policeman causes it to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. The military-industrial complex doesn't care as long as they are making boatloads of money. That's one thing that really irks me is my tax money going to make some CEO rich off of blowing people up.
Small confession...I would watch one before each visit to the middle east. They were horrifying and disgusting, but highly motivating. Way better than Capra's "Why We Fight" films during WW2. They REALLY put things in perspective.

Not totally unsympathetic to your second para. With regard to the large MIC companies...yeah, as taxpayer most of them really tick me off.

What I hope folks have taken away from my contributions to this thread is that, yeah, policemen and governments have issues and do bad things from time to time...but context and perspective are critical. I would argue that good policemen are a good thing and also argue that if you think no policemen is a good thing you are (pick a pejorative you like :-) )
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by dualstow » Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:18 pm

BLAGOJEVICH



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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by Kriegsspiel » Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:27 pm

Seems like a bad move to me, what's the story?
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by dualstow » Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:43 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:27 pm
Seems like a bad move to me, what's the story?
Long story short, Trump's a meathead.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by Kbg » Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:45 pm

dualstow wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:43 pm
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:27 pm
Seems like a bad move to me, what's the story?
Long story short, Trump's a meathead.
Gator in the swamp...creature of vs. a drainer of.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by WiseOne » Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:47 pm

Visions of Archie Bunker running the White House....

You'd have to call most Presidents that, then. They've all pardoned a slimebag or two. President Ford pardoning Nixon for example. The difference here, of course, is that Trump's meathead status is pre-existing, and he will get picked on for everything he does. Similarly I'm wondering what the fuss with Roger Stone is all about. 9 years in prison for a string of nonviolent procedural offenses for a 67 year old (essentially a life sentence) seems rather severe when you consider that violent crimes like rape, armed assault and manslaughter don't even get that much. It's not a stretch to suspect that a bit of Trump revenge figured into this.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by dualstow » Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:53 pm

WiseOne wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:47 pm
You'd have to call most Presidents that, then. They've all pardoned a slimebag or two. President Ford pardoning Nixon for example.
Fair enough, WiseOne.

As for Roger Stone, couldn't it be that it was, as you said, a string of offenses and not just one? They add up.
Madoff wasn't violent either.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by Cortopassi » Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:58 pm

Here is the most interesting thing to me -- the people Trump has pardoned:

https://www.justice.gov/pardon/pardons- ... nald-trump

Most sentences were WAY lighter than I would have expected. Like this below. One year for 5kg of cocaine?

Michael Anthony Tedesco
Offense: Conspiracy to possess with intent to distribute and distribute in excess of 5 kilograms of cocaine and quantities of marijuana (Western District of Pennsylvania)
Sentence: 12 months' imprisonment; five years' supervised release (December 7, 1990)
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by WiseOne » Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:25 pm

Madoff ran an operation that he well knew to be a swindle for many years, and did real damage to people. Stone's damage was confined to procedural operations of a government investigation. Not sure you can compare to two.

And like I said...Stone would have gotten a much shorter sentence if he had, say, physically attacked Nancy Pelosi. Not that I'm advocating any such thing! Just to point out disparities in sentencing.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by dualstow » Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:27 pm

WiseOne wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:25 pm
Madoff ran an operation that he well knew to be a swindle for many years, and did real damage to people. Stone's damage was confined to procedural operations of a government investigation. Not sure you can compare to two.

And like I said...Stone would have gotten a much shorter sentence if he had, say, physically attacked Nancy Pelosi. Not that I'm advocating any such thing! Just to point out disparities in sentencing.
I’m saying that there are ways to earn yourself a long sentence without committing acts of violence.

from earlier: Sure, you have to call the other pardoning presidents some kind of epithet, too, but that falls under two wrongs don’t make a right*. I don’t think Ford and Nixon can be compared to these two.

Law and punishment is man-made and arbitrary. There is no way sentencing is going to make sense to all people.

But Stone hasn’t even been sentenced yet, has he? There was just a request from the prosecution of 7 or 9 years as far as I know. He’s an abominable human being, and I hope he serves some time before our Pres officially pardons him, too.
—-
*The wrong being the pardon, of course. Not the epithet.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by dualstow » Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:12 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:40 pm
dualstow wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:27 pm

Law and punishment is man-made and arbitrary. There is no way sentencing is going to make sense to all people.

But don't you think physical crimes, particularly violent ones, deserve more severe punishment than white collar crimes? I think that was WiseOne's point.
Thanks, I know what WiseOne’s point was.
First and foremost, I don’t think the the executive branch should be meddling with the judicial branch.
Not that my personal opinion counts, but yes, if I could write the code, I would have longer sentences for convictions of violence.
I don’t know that I would have short sentences for multiple counts of non-violent offenses. Can’t put everyone in jail.

Again, my personal choice doesn’t mean anything. I don’t take pleasure in knowing that someone can get off if the arresting officer neglects to read someone their rights, or makes a technical mistake in conducting a search. The system is messy, but we have to have a system.

Now, the credibility of the prosecutors is being looked into. Some of them are being called “disgruntled.” Maybe something will come of that, I don’t know.

What I do know is that the president’s interfering with this process before we even get to talking about pardons (or commuting sentences) is not part of our best-horse-in-the-glue-factory system. It’s the beginning of the collapse of our system.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by dualstow » Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:32 pm

P.S. Did I mention a relative of mine is serving a -- what is it-- a thirty-year sentence, I think, for a white-collar crime? (Obama era). Nice guy, but I don't disapprove.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by vnatale » Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:45 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:40 pm
dualstow wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:27 pm

Law and punishment is man-made and arbitrary. There is no way sentencing is going to make sense to all people.

But don't you think physical crimes, particularly violent ones, deserve more severe punishment than white collar crimes? I think that was WiseOne's point.
I'll go with an extreme example to see if you still believe what you say is ALWAYS true...who should get the more severe punishment?

1) Bernie Madoff

2) Someone who has had ZERO prior criminal history but one night makes the wrong decision and engages in a violent, physical crime. Totally out of character for the person, who just snapped.

Do we tend to more personalize a violent crime, imaging it happening to us or someone we know? Yet overlook the greater number of lives that can be deeply negatively affected by white collar crime?

Vinny
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by dualstow » Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:56 pm

I think we should *always* use the system, Vinny. But why even make length of sentence a competition? Everyone gets a trial (or, in most cases these days, a plea deal). Eventually, a sentence should be handed out that should fit the crime(s).

I often think about the judge that presided over the Brock Turner rape case. Easy to hate Turner, but the judge gave a sentence in accord with a pre-set standard and a recommendation. The masses didn’t like it, and now he’s out of a job. I, too, was initially upset with what seemed like a very light sentence, too, until I read the details. Well, in the end, the armchair judges got the better of the real judge.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by vnatale » Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:04 pm

dualstow wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:56 pm
I think we should *always* use the system, Vinny. But why even make length of sentence a competition? Everyone gets a trial (or, in most cases these days, a plea deal). Eventually, a sentence should be handed out that should fit the crime(s).

I often think about the judge that presided over the Brock Turner rape case. Easy to hate Turner, but the judge gave a sentence in accord with a pre-set standard and a recommendation. The masses didn’t like it, and now he’s out of a job. I, too, was initially upset with what seemed like a very light sentence, too, until I read the details. Well, in the end, the armchair judges got the better of the real judge.
It's been awhile since I read the details. But my best memory from having read those details is that the judge erred in his decision.

I do remember that aside from Brock's crime his father made some particularly odious comments.

Vinny
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by dualstow » Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:53 am

vnatale wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:04 pm
dualstow wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:56 pm
I often think about the judge that presided over the Brock Turner rape case.
<snip>

It's been awhile since I read the details. But my best memory from having read those details is that the judge erred in his decision.
Incorrect.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by WiseOne » Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:45 am

dualstow wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:53 am
vnatale wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:04 pm
dualstow wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:56 pm
I often think about the judge that presided over the Brock Turner rape case.
<snip>

It's been awhile since I read the details. But my best memory from having read those details is that the judge erred in his decision.
Incorrect.
Not so clear. The minimum sentence for the three counts of sexual assault was 2 years in prison, whereas the judge cut this to 6 months citing Turner's demeanor, lack of criminal record, and expressed remorse. The remorse part though was total fiction...he never admitted anything and in fact lied about the incident during the trial. In my book this should have disqualified him from getting any amount of leniency. And, (unlike the case with Brett Kavanaugh's accuser) the victim was evaluated in hospital under a rape protocol and there were injuries consistent with a non-consensual attack. There was also a perception that race and privilege played a role.

If you compare this to the 9 years that Roger Stone got...well, everyone is entitled to their opinion and following procedure is important, but I still think something is wrong with that picture. Also in the case of Stone, the temporal proximity to the impeachment trial gave the appearance that it had some impact on the recommended sentence. Kind of the mirror of the Turner case. When there is the possibility of such shenanigans, I think it makes sense for a review to be conducted by some mechanism that doesn't involve a formal appeal.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by Cortopassi » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:11 am

If you listened to the 60 minutes interview of the woman he raped and read her story, Turner should have gotten much more than the time he did. If I was king...

I've been drunk many times in my college years and doing something like that never, ever, crossed my mind. And certainly not when sober. I really wonder how brains are wired to allow yourself to do something like that.

I can certainly see me killing someone in self defense, or for another justified reason. But rape, man, I don't get it.

Back to Trump... could he in theory, go to a mic and say he's pardoning all 150K+ federal prisoners? Wonder what would happen. No obvious safeguard against that except a quick impeachment or assessment of incompetence or something. But if it takes effect the second it is said?
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by Kbg » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:33 am

How do you get a Trump pardon...be a rich disgraced criminal. I read the pardon list in the morning paper. I'm completely done with this guy.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by dualstow » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:56 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:11 am
If you listened to the 60 minutes interview of the woman he raped and read her story, Turner should have gotten much more than the time he did. If I was king...

I've been drunk many times in my college years and doing something like that never, ever, crossed my mind. And certainly not when sober. I really wonder how brains are wired to allow yourself to do something like that.

I can certainly see me killing someone in self defense, or for another justified reason. But rape, man, I don't get it.

Back to Trump... could he in theory, go to a mic and say he's pardoning all 150K+ federal prisoners? Wonder what would happen. No obvious safeguard against that except a quick impeachment or assessment of incompetence or something. But if it takes effect the second it is said?
I sympathize with your position and I feel almost exactly the same *except* that the judge was then "tried" as if he were the rapist.He was recalled.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by Tyler » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:00 am

WiseOne wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:45 am
If you compare this to the 9 years that Roger Stone got...well, everyone is entitled to their opinion and following procedure is important, but I still think something is wrong with that picture.
The important detail most people are intentionally omitting is that the Stone prosecutors reportedly lied to their DOJ superiors about the sentence they were going to seek before unilaterally lengthening the recommended sentence in the official filing. Combine that with the mass resignation and fawning media coverage, and the entire episode feels like a scripted political stunt.

"The department was shocked to see the sentencing recommendation,” the official, who requested anonymity to speak about the department's internal deliberations, said. “This was not what had been briefed to the department and the department thinks the recommendation was extreme, excessive and grossly disproportionate to Stone’s offenses and the department will clarify its position later today at the court.”
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/prosecu ... d=68893294
Last edited by Tyler on Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by dualstow » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:08 am

WiseOne wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:45 am
dualstow wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:53 am
vnatale wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:04 pm
dualstow wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:56 pm
I often think about the judge that presided over the Brock Turner rape case.
<snip>

It's been awhile since I read the details. But my best memory from having read those details is that the judge erred in his decision.
Incorrect.
Not so clear. The minimum sentence for the three counts of sexual assault was 2 years in prison, whereas the judge cut this to 6 months citing Turner's demeanor, lack of criminal record, and expressed remorse. The remorse part though was total fiction...he never admitted anything and in fact lied about the incident during the trial. In my book this should have disqualified him from getting any amount of leniency. And, (unlike the case with Brett Kavanaugh's accuser) the victim was evaluated in hospital under a rape protocol and there were injuries consistent with a non-consensual attack. There was also a perception that race and privilege played a role.
Yes, there was a perception that race and privilege played a role, hence the mob. This is the age we're living in. I think we can all agree that Turner is despicable. Even before but especially reading the words of Doe (real name now out), mafia justice even invades the mind.

But...the system. If it's a problem, rewrite the system. Don't recall a judge with a reputation for fairness and then wipe him out with legal fees for following a court recommendation when sentencing.

I see Cevallos' comments about it on wikipedia, but I'm still looking for the article I read on it that changed my perception.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by Kbg » Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:28 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:06 pm
Kbg wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:33 am
How do you get a Trump pardon...be a rich disgraced criminal. I read the pardon list in the morning paper. I'm completely done with this guy.
You mean like this rich disgraced criminal? https://www.npr.org/2018/06/06/61751306 ... -in-prison

Or these? https://www.justice.gov/pardon/pardons- ... #Feb182020

Just going by that list, I would say that most of those pardoned or whose sentences were commuted weren't rich.
Guess you should dig a little deeper...not saying none of the list was pardon worthy. However,

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/19/politics ... index.html

Granted, I'm not a CNN fan either so let's not argue over easily verifiable backgrounds.

But I will retract and rephrase my statement. How do you get a Trump pardon...usually be a rich disgraced criminal or have strong support from his far right base.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by Kbg » Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:37 am

But facts are facts and these are easily verifiable...so I'll stick with my statement.
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