Abolishing police

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Libertarian666
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Abolishing police

Post by Libertarian666 » Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:01 pm

Has the left really thought about what this would mean?

Here are just a few of the consequences.

No drug arrests: I'm sure they're on board with that (as am I).
No speed traps: Sure, no problem for them (or for me).
No gun control: Uh-oh, I don't think they've considered that.
Many, many private security companies who would be charged with protecting property but would have no immunity for wrongful actions.

As an anarcho-capitalist, I've thought about this possibility a lot more than have most people.

When people talk about the "Wild West", they don't realize that the murder rate in the Old West was far lower than in any modern inner city. Yes, we hear about robberies, murders, and so on. But they were notable because they were very rare.
Most of the population was armed. That has an enormous deterrent effect on criminals.

See https://extranosalley.com/homicide-rate ... -old-west/ for one of many articles about this topic.
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Re: Abolishing police

Post by vnatale » Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:13 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:01 pm
Has the left really thought about what this would mean?

Here are just a few of the consequences.

No drug arrests: I'm sure they're on board with that (as am I).
No speed traps: Sure, no problem for them (or for me).
No gun control: Uh-oh, I don't think they've considered that.
Many, many private security companies who would be charged with protecting property but would have no immunity for wrongful actions.

As an anarcho-capitalist, I've thought about this possibility a lot more than have most people.

When people talk about the "Wild West", they don't realize that the murder rate in the Old West was far lower than in any modern inner city. Yes, we hear about robberies, murders, and so on. But they were notable because they were very rare.
Most of the population was armed. That has an enormous deterrent effect on criminals.

See https://extranosalley.com/homicide-rate ... -old-west/ for one of many articles about this topic.
Would be interested in your response to this. He is decidedly pro-police and anti-politician.

Vinny

https://www.c-span.org/video/?472699-4/ ... olicing-us

June 5, 2020 | Part Of Washington Journal 06/05/2020
Eugene O'Donnell on Policing in the U.S.
John Jay College of Criminal Justice lecturer and former NYPD officer Eugene O’Donnell talked about policing in the U.S. following George Floyd’s killing and the ensuing protests.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Abolishing police

Post by Hal » Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:21 pm

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Re: Abolishing police

Post by Libertarian666 » Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:30 pm

vnatale wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:13 pm
Libertarian666 wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:01 pm
Has the left really thought about what this would mean?

Here are just a few of the consequences.

No drug arrests: I'm sure they're on board with that (as am I).
No speed traps: Sure, no problem for them (or for me).
No gun control: Uh-oh, I don't think they've considered that.
Many, many private security companies who would be charged with protecting property but would have no immunity for wrongful actions.

As an anarcho-capitalist, I've thought about this possibility a lot more than have most people.

When people talk about the "Wild West", they don't realize that the murder rate in the Old West was far lower than in any modern inner city. Yes, we hear about robberies, murders, and so on. But they were notable because they were very rare.
Most of the population was armed. That has an enormous deterrent effect on criminals.

See https://extranosalley.com/homicide-rate ... -old-west/ for one of many articles about this topic.
Would be interested in your response to this. He is decidedly pro-police and anti-politician.

Vinny

https://www.c-span.org/video/?472699-4/ ... olicing-us

June 5, 2020 | Part Of Washington Journal 06/05/2020
Eugene O'Donnell on Policing in the U.S.
John Jay College of Criminal Justice lecturer and former NYPD officer Eugene O’Donnell talked about policing in the U.S. following George Floyd’s killing and the ensuing protests.
I don't generally pay for political content. Do you have a summary?
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Re: Abolishing police

Post by Libertarian666 » Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:34 pm

Interesting but very archaic. Today it could be done much more efficiently and cost-effectively.
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Re: Abolishing police

Post by vnatale » Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:39 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:30 pm
vnatale wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:13 pm
Libertarian666 wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:01 pm
Has the left really thought about what this would mean?

Here are just a few of the consequences.

No drug arrests: I'm sure they're on board with that (as am I).
No speed traps: Sure, no problem for them (or for me).
No gun control: Uh-oh, I don't think they've considered that.
Many, many private security companies who would be charged with protecting property but would have no immunity for wrongful actions.

As an anarcho-capitalist, I've thought about this possibility a lot more than have most people.

When people talk about the "Wild West", they don't realize that the murder rate in the Old West was far lower than in any modern inner city. Yes, we hear about robberies, murders, and so on. But they were notable because they were very rare.
Most of the population was armed. That has an enormous deterrent effect on criminals.

See https://extranosalley.com/homicide-rate ... -old-west/ for one of many articles about this topic.
Would be interested in your response to this. He is decidedly pro-police and anti-politician.

Vinny

https://www.c-span.org/video/?472699-4/ ... olicing-us

June 5, 2020 | Part Of Washington Journal 06/05/2020
Eugene O'Donnell on Policing in the U.S.
John Jay College of Criminal Justice lecturer and former NYPD officer Eugene O’Donnell talked about policing in the U.S. following George Floyd’s killing and the ensuing protests.
I don't generally pay for political content. Do you have a summary?
I am a terrible summarizer. Did you try to see it and it asked you for payment? I just tried it in Firefox, which I'd never prior used for anything regarding C-Span, and it just started playing without asking for any form of payment.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Abolishing police

Post by Libertarian666 » Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:52 pm

vnatale wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:39 pm
Libertarian666 wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:30 pm
vnatale wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:13 pm
Libertarian666 wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:01 pm
Has the left really thought about what this would mean?

Here are just a few of the consequences.

No drug arrests: I'm sure they're on board with that (as am I).
No speed traps: Sure, no problem for them (or for me).
No gun control: Uh-oh, I don't think they've considered that.
Many, many private security companies who would be charged with protecting property but would have no immunity for wrongful actions.

As an anarcho-capitalist, I've thought about this possibility a lot more than have most people.

When people talk about the "Wild West", they don't realize that the murder rate in the Old West was far lower than in any modern inner city. Yes, we hear about robberies, murders, and so on. But they were notable because they were very rare.
Most of the population was armed. That has an enormous deterrent effect on criminals.

See https://extranosalley.com/homicide-rate ... -old-west/ for one of many articles about this topic.
Would be interested in your response to this. He is decidedly pro-police and anti-politician.

Vinny

https://www.c-span.org/video/?472699-4/ ... olicing-us

June 5, 2020 | Part Of Washington Journal 06/05/2020
Eugene O'Donnell on Policing in the U.S.
John Jay College of Criminal Justice lecturer and former NYPD officer Eugene O’Donnell talked about policing in the U.S. following George Floyd’s killing and the ensuing protests.
I don't generally pay for political content. Do you have a summary?
I am a terrible summarizer. Did you try to see it and it asked you for payment? I just tried it in Firefox, which I'd never prior used for anything regarding C-Span, and it just started playing without asking for any form of payment.

Vinny
It wouldn't play. It gave the option of buying a view either in mp3 or another format, I forget which.
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Re: Abolishing police

Post by shekels » Sat Jun 06, 2020 7:53 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:01 pm
Has the left really thought about what this would mean?

Here are just a few of the consequences.

No drug arrests: I'm sure they're on board with that (as am I).
No speed traps: Sure, no problem for them (or for me).
No gun control: Uh-oh, I don't think they've considered that.
Many, many private security companies who would be charged with protecting property but would have no immunity for wrongful actions.

As an anarcho-capitalist, I've thought about this possibility a lot more than have most people.

When people talk about the "Wild West", they don't realize that the murder rate in the Old West was far lower than in any modern inner city. Yes, we hear about robberies, murders, and so on. But they were notable because they were very rare.
Most of the population was armed. That has an enormous deterrent effect on criminals.

See https://extranosalley.com/homicide-rate ... -old-west/ for one of many articles about this topic.
How about arrests in general, or do we just shoot first.
Seems it would take a little time and make a more courteous population when we all carry a weapon.
I do not see many riots in that future.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: Abolishing police

Post by Libertarian666 » Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:28 am

shekels wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 7:53 am
Libertarian666 wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:01 pm
Has the left really thought about what this would mean?

Here are just a few of the consequences.

No drug arrests: I'm sure they're on board with that (as am I).
No speed traps: Sure, no problem for them (or for me).
No gun control: Uh-oh, I don't think they've considered that.
Many, many private security companies who would be charged with protecting property but would have no immunity for wrongful actions.

As an anarcho-capitalist, I've thought about this possibility a lot more than have most people.

When people talk about the "Wild West", they don't realize that the murder rate in the Old West was far lower than in any modern inner city. Yes, we hear about robberies, murders, and so on. But they were notable because they were very rare.
Most of the population was armed. That has an enormous deterrent effect on criminals.

See https://extranosalley.com/homicide-rate ... -old-west/ for one of many articles about this topic.
How about arrests in general, or do we just shoot first.
Seems it would take a little time and make a more courteous population when we all carry a weapon.
I do not see many riots in that future.
Fortunately this has been discussed in great detail in science fiction as well as some more expository works.
I'll start a new thread on this topic. Maybe we could run a book club on this topic?
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Re: Abolishing police

Post by Libertarian666 » Sat Jun 06, 2020 7:35 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:42 pm
:o ???

Chicago mayor denounces vigilantism

Okay, so the cops won't protect your business/property, but you can't do it yourself either?
Obviously not. That would be racist!

But if there are no police, how would vigilante patrols be prevented? Hmm...
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Re: Abolishing police

Post by doodle » Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:34 am

That wild west stuff is a myth. Do a little more research on it. Towns generally had strict ordinances against guns.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/histor ... 80968013/
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Re: Abolishing police

Post by WiseOne » Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:06 am

doodle wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:34 am
That wild west stuff is a myth. Do a little more research on it. Towns generally had strict ordinances against guns.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/histor ... 80968013/
Hmm, that is a rather selective retelling of the story. This is the type of propaganda that tells part of the truth in order to leave you with a desired impression - in this case, that the frontier West practiced gun control. I did the stupid brain-dead lazy move of going to wikipedia for the story, and found this:
The gunfight was the result of a long-simmering feud, with Cowboys Billy Claiborne, Ike and Billy Clanton, and Tom and Frank McLaury on one side; and Town Marshal Virgil Earp, Special Policemen Morgan and Wyatt Earp, and temporary policeman Doc Holliday on the other side.

The shootout has come to represent a period of the American Old West when the frontier was virtually an open range for outlaws, largely unopposed by law enforcement officers who were spread thin over vast territories.
The disarming attempt occurred in the context of this feud.

I expect what will happen in NYC if city law enforcement is cut back is that the Guardian Angels will become more of a presence, just as they were in the 1980s:

http://guardianangels.org/

Given that many of the Angels are black, this should get most interesting. I thought they weren't active anymore due to the "golden years" of effective crime fighting of the late 1990s/2000s, but with the recent spike in crime I've been seeing more of them. God bless them and hope they keep it up. They're not armed, but as the Minneapolis incident showed us, that's not required to do some significant damage if you have the right skills.
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Re: Abolishing police

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:32 am

Idly wondering if the advent of community policing and (later) legalization of drugs is going to catapult street gangs and cartels to unprecedented positions of power. There are already videos circulating of Latin Kings and other latino gangs protecting neighborhoods from looters. That's how a protection racket is supposed to work, right? Not like (democrat-controlled) city government who seem to be largely ceding territory to looting and rioting.

Add in some form of legalized prostitution and they could be the Koch Industries of the future.

AFTERTHOUGHT: I guess it's probable that the gangs are going and looting in other places and protecting their home turf. No honor among thieves and all that.
You there, Ephialtes. May you live forever.
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Re: Abolishing police

Post by doodle » Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:04 am

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:32 am
Idly wondering if the advent of community policing and (later) legalization of drugs is going to catapult street gangs and cartels to unprecedented positions of power. There are already videos circulating of Latin Kings and other latino gangs protecting neighborhoods from looters. That's how a protection racket is supposed to work, right? Not like (democrat-controlled) city government who seem to be largely ceding territory to looting and rioting.

Add in some form of legalized prostitution and they could be the Koch Industries of the future.

AFTERTHOUGHT: I guess it's probable that the gangs are going and looting in other places and protecting their home turf. No honor among thieves and all that.
Someone will assume control...and it will probably be worse than police. In places like the slums of Brazil or South America it's usually drug related entities trying to maintain control and order. There is no judicial system at all though. In Indian slums the community often takes care of Justice....things can get pretty brutal. All in all, I'd take the police.
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Re: Abolishing police

Post by doodle » Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:09 am

WiseOne wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:06 am
doodle wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:34 am
That wild west stuff is a myth. Do a little more research on it. Towns generally had strict ordinances against guns.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/histor ... 80968013/
Hmm, that is a rather selective retelling of the story. This is the type of propaganda that tells part of the truth in order to leave you with a desired impression - in this case, that the frontier West practiced gun control. I did the stupid brain-dead lazy move of going to wikipedia for the story, and found this:
The gunfight was the result of a long-simmering feud, with Cowboys Billy Claiborne, Ike and Billy Clanton, and Tom and Frank McLaury on one side; and Town Marshal Virgil Earp, Special Policemen Morgan and Wyatt Earp, and temporary policeman Doc Holliday on the other side.

The shootout has come to represent a period of the American Old West when the frontier was virtually an open range for outlaws, largely unopposed by law enforcement officers who were spread thin over vast territories.
The disarming attempt occurred in the context of this feud.

I expect what will happen in NYC if city law enforcement is cut back is that the Guardian Angels will become more of a presence, just as they were in the 1980s:

http://guardianangels.org/

Given that many of the Angels are black, this should get most interesting. I thought they weren't active anymore due to the "golden years" of effective crime fighting of the late 1990s/2000s, but with the recent spike in crime I've been seeing more of them. God bless them and hope they keep it up. They're not armed, but as the Minneapolis incident showed us, that's not required to do some significant damage if you have the right skills.
The newly acquired territories and incredibly sparsely populated territories of the western United States bear no resemblance to Chicago and New York City. As soon as towns became anything larger than a couple miners and prostitutes they implemented gun control laws, because they realized that having a bunch of men getting wasted in the saloon with guns on their hips was a bad combination.
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Re: Abolishing police

Post by Libertarian666 » Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:42 am

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:32 am
Idly wondering if the advent of community policing and (later) legalization of drugs is going to catapult street gangs and cartels to unprecedented positions of power. There are already videos circulating of Latin Kings and other latino gangs protecting neighborhoods from looters. That's how a protection racket is supposed to work, right? Not like (democrat-controlled) city government who seem to be largely ceding territory to looting and rioting.

Add in some form of legalized prostitution and they could be the Koch Industries of the future.

AFTERTHOUGHT: I guess it's probable that the gangs are going and looting in other places and protecting their home turf. No honor among thieves and all that.
If there are no police to try to enforce gun or drug laws, then it will no longer be true that the only organizations that can survive are those who can bribe or kill the police.

In that circumstance, I would expect that honest protection agencies would arise that would use nonviolent private dispute resolution. That is far more cost-effective and efficient, so such agencies would handily out-compete the violent types.
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Re: Abolishing police

Post by Maddy » Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:32 am

Don't miss the fact that private security forces, as well as private prisons, are a pivotal part of the Leftist totalitarian plan. A good resource on this is Catherine Austin Fitts' on-line book entitled "Dillon Reed and the Aristocracy of Profits." Their target, by the way, has always been the inner city Black communities.
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Re: Abolishing police

Post by Libertarian666 » Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:10 pm

Maddy wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:32 am
Don't miss the fact that private security forces, as well as private prisons, are a pivotal part of the Leftist totalitarian plan. A good resource on this is Catherine Austin Fitts' on-line book entitled "Dillon Reed and the Aristocracy of Profits." Their target, by the way, has always been the inner city Black communities.
In my understanding, those are "private" in name only. They are paid for by tax money.
I'm talking about actual private security companies paid for by their customers. As for actual private prisons, I can't believe there would be sufficient demand for them without all the "victimless crime" laws to fill them.
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Re: Abolishing police

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:11 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:42 am
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:32 am
Idly wondering if the advent of community policing and (later) legalization of drugs is going to catapult street gangs and cartels to unprecedented positions of power. There are already videos circulating of Latin Kings and other latino gangs protecting neighborhoods from looters. That's how a protection racket is supposed to work, right? Not like (democrat-controlled) city government who seem to be largely ceding territory to looting and rioting.

Add in some form of legalized prostitution and they could be the Koch Industries of the future.

AFTERTHOUGHT: I guess it's probable that the gangs are going and looting in other places and protecting their home turf. No honor among thieves and all that.
If there are no police to try to enforce gun or drug laws, then it will no longer be true that the only organizations that can survive are those who can bribe or kill the police.

In that circumstance, I would expect that honest protection agencies would arise that would use nonviolent private dispute resolution. That is far more cost-effective and efficient, so such agencies would handily out-compete the violent types.
That thought occured to me today after I posted that. Seems pretty obvious in retrospect.
You there, Ephialtes. May you live forever.
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Re: Abolishing police

Post by Libertarian666 » Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:15 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:11 pm
Libertarian666 wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:42 am
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:32 am
Idly wondering if the advent of community policing and (later) legalization of drugs is going to catapult street gangs and cartels to unprecedented positions of power. There are already videos circulating of Latin Kings and other latino gangs protecting neighborhoods from looters. That's how a protection racket is supposed to work, right? Not like (democrat-controlled) city government who seem to be largely ceding territory to looting and rioting.

Add in some form of legalized prostitution and they could be the Koch Industries of the future.

AFTERTHOUGHT: I guess it's probable that the gangs are going and looting in other places and protecting their home turf. No honor among thieves and all that.
If there are no police to try to enforce gun or drug laws, then it will no longer be true that the only organizations that can survive are those who can bribe or kill the police.

In that circumstance, I would expect that honest protection agencies would arise that would use nonviolent private dispute resolution. That is far more cost-effective and efficient, so such agencies would handily out-compete the violent types.
That thought occured to me today after I posted that. Seems pretty obvious in retrospect.
Read Chapter 12 of this (free) book: https://cdn.mises.org/For%20a%20New%20L ... esto_3.pdf
It refers to discussions in earlier chapters (also worth reading) but can stand on its own.
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Re: Abolishing police

Post by WiseOne » Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:52 am

OH MY GOD!!!! NYC is actually in better shape than Minneapolis

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/minne ... r-BB15amCL

COMPLETELY disbanding. As in no police at all.

Wonder what this will do to gun sales and home security systems. Instead of automatically calling the police, maybe they'd have to trigger a tear gas squirter or something. Or ring up the armed neighborhood patrol that I suppose will become a necessity.
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Re: Abolishing police

Post by WiseOne » Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:58 am

So let's do a thought experiment guys, since it will apparently be real experiment soon in at least one US city....

What would life be like without police?

First up, there will be no jails, no arrests, no court convictions - how is the city going to force you to comply with any of that? They could impose fines and garnish wages to pay them, that's about it. Except, how will they decide who to impose fines on, as that would presumably require a trial that you don't have to show up for?

There will be lots more available parking spaces. No parking tickets, so you can park in front of fire hydrants, block driveways, double park etc to your hearts content. No speeding tickets, so effectively no speed limits. Traffic lights and stop signs will be optional.

I would imagine that crime will go through the roof - although news articles (e.g. on CNN) and advocates of abolishing police departments claim that "investing in communities" will prevent this. Is there an argument to be made?

The obvious consequences of increased crime: Businesses will flee minority neighborhoods, or be destroyed. As the crime spreads to better neighborhoods, the same will happen to those businesses. Many more people will buy guns for self-defense and carry them concealed, regardless of city gun laws (since those are now unenforceable). I can think of all sorts of imaginative security systems to protect your home. Currently those systems call police, so they'll have to be converted to systems that trigger tear gas or some other agent that will incapacitate the burglar long enough for you to arrange to deal with the situation. Or maybe private security services will be set up, i.e. a privatized version of police.

Since there is no longer a justice system to deal with criminals, how will personal crime situations be resolved? If you are faced with a mugger, robber etc, what will you do with no system in place to put them away for your (and society's) protection? You'll have two alternatives: let the person go, or kill or permanently maim the person. What would you do in reality? And, won't this end up with the same situation that exists now with police, only much much worse because you as a private citizen are not trained in how to handle a violent encounter, and have no resources outside of the gun in your hand?

Police also respond to nuisance complaints, e.g. a group holding a loud party out in the street in front of your home at 2 am. That will start happening too, and I imagine some violent encounters will take place as a result.

Thoughts???

(Lordy...I can't concentrate on work...this is all just so scary.)
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Re: Abolishing police

Post by Libertarian666 » Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:28 am

WiseOne wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:58 am
So let's do a thought experiment guys, since it will apparently be real experiment soon in at least one US city....

What would life be like without police?

First up, there will be no jails, no arrests, no court convictions - how is the city going to force you to comply with any of that? They could impose fines and garnish wages to pay them, that's about it. Except, how will they decide who to impose fines on, as that would presumably require a trial that you don't have to show up for?

There will be lots more available parking spaces. No parking tickets, so you can park in front of fire hydrants, block driveways, double park etc to your hearts content. No speeding tickets, so effectively no speed limits. Traffic lights and stop signs will be optional.

I would imagine that crime will go through the roof - although news articles (e.g. on CNN) and advocates of abolishing police departments claim that "investing in communities" will prevent this. Is there an argument to be made?

The obvious consequences of increased crime: Businesses will flee minority neighborhoods, or be destroyed. As the crime spreads to better neighborhoods, the same will happen to those businesses. Many more people will buy guns for self-defense and carry them concealed, regardless of city gun laws (since those are now unenforceable). I can think of all sorts of imaginative security systems to protect your home. Currently those systems call police, so they'll have to be converted to systems that trigger tear gas or some other agent that will incapacitate the burglar long enough for you to arrange to deal with the situation. Or maybe private security services will be set up, i.e. a privatized version of police.

Since there is no longer a justice system to deal with criminals, how will personal crime situations be resolved? If you are faced with a mugger, robber etc, what will you do with no system in place to put them away for your (and society's) protection? You'll have two alternatives: let the person go, or kill or permanently maim the person. What would you do in reality? And, won't this end up with the same situation that exists now with police, only much much worse because you as a private citizen are not trained in how to handle a violent encounter, and have no resources outside of the gun in your hand?

Police also respond to nuisance complaints, e.g. a group holding a loud party out in the street in front of your home at 2 am. That will start happening too, and I imagine some violent encounters will take place as a result.

Thoughts???

(Lordy...I can't concentrate on work...this is all just so scary.)
I expect a much lower crime rate with no police.

Why? Short answer in two phases:
1. Short run: Lots of armed citizens. (Note that armed citizens have a much lower rate of incorrect use of force than police, because they don't have "qualified immunity" to protect them, although in anarchism that wouldn't apply directly.)
2. Longer run: Multiple private security agencies that will provide whatever security services people are willing to pay for.

Longer answer:
Read Chapter 12 of this book: https://cdn.mises.org/For%20a%20New%20L ... esto_3.pdf
Libertarian666
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Re: Abolishing police

Post by Libertarian666 » Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:31 am

WiseOne wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:52 am
OH MY GOD!!!! NYC is actually in better shape than Minneapolis

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/minne ... r-BB15amCL

COMPLETELY disbanding. As in no police at all.

Wonder what this will do to gun sales and home security systems. Instead of automatically calling the police, maybe they'd have to trigger a tear gas squirter or something. Or ring up the armed neighborhood patrol that I suppose will become a necessity.
It sure will. And it won't be tasked with enforcing drug laws or gun laws, so it will be much less burdened than the police have been.
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Re: Abolishing police

Post by drumminj » Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:49 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:28 am
I expect a much lower crime rate with no police.

Why? Short answer in two phases:
1. Short run: Lots of armed citizens. (Note that armed citizens have a much lower rate of incorrect use of force than police, because they don't have "qualified immunity" to protect them, although in anarchism that wouldn't apply directly.)
2. Longer run: Multiple private security agencies that will provide whatever security services people are willing to pay for.

Longer answer:
Read Chapter 12 of this book: https://cdn.mises.org/For%20a%20New%20L ... esto_3.pdf
I'm curious about the impact of "lack of qualified immunity", specifically since no one's there to arrest you for mis-use of force. If there aren't any repercussions for shooting anyone you feel like it (other than them possibly shooting back), I suspect we're in for a very messy transition period.

Am I missing something?
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