An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

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WhiteElephant
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An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by WhiteElephant » Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:25 pm

I'm mostly lurking this board as there are usually some interesting threads about the PP.

Of course I noticed the political threads lately and I've been pretty interested in them. As a Dutch citizen this board gives me a different perspective of what's going on in the US.

What struck me is how completely polarized the political climate seems, even among board members. This is very hard to imagine for me.
I've been used to Americans telling me it's just the media, and it's really not as bad as it seems. But what I'm reading here is so ridiculously polarized, it's kinda hard to believe people seem so antagonized about this right/left thing. As if it's possible the other half is so completely, fundamentally wrong about, well really, everything. It's the anger, the frustration that's contained in these posts that really strikes me. It definitely seems worse after Trump got elected.

When I compare this to the situation in our 'socialist' western europe, we seem to be having a picnic over here! There are huge differences of opinion course, there always are, but nowhere near this level of anger and polarization between 'left' and 'right', between 'globalists' and 'nationalists'.
It really is quite shocking to me. Is there any way to heal this American toxic political climate?
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by pmward » Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:57 pm

OMG it is so bad here... and this forum is skewed pretty heavily to the right. It's so much worse when you are somewhere that doesn't have that overwhelming bias. People are dividing their families and friends by political affiliation... it's just crazy here right now. I think it just comes down to the fact that Trump is just so polarizing. He is so good at stirring up that us vs them mentality on his side, and at poking the bear on the other side. I don't know if there is any healing in this. Even if Trump gets booted from office in Nov, he is already positioning himself with "the election is going to be rigged" propaganda since he is down in the polls, and I do think that he will use that argument to generate outrage and revolt if he loses. I do not think he will walk away gracefully like other ex-presidents have. I think there will be lots of turmoil and resentment going forward regardless of who wins in Nov. As much I do not want to see Trump win in Nov, I am also fearful of what happens here if he loses. I just don't even know any more. This is not the country I know, that I served, and that I used to wholeheartedly believe in. It's just... different. It's going to take a long time to heal the wounds in our society.
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by Xan » Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:19 pm

I think fundamentally a big issue is "first past the post" voting. The Constitution doesn't recognize political parties, and that's very nice in theory... But they sprang up anyway, and with winner-take-all 51% voting everywhere, it's inevitably going to turn into exactly two parties at each other's throats.
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by Kriegsspiel » Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:43 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:35 pm
Centre
:o

To add to the Europeanity of this thread, I think it was a French dude who first posited that democracies (republics, maybe?) would eventually come down to a two-party system.
You there, Ephialtes. May you live forever.
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by Xan » Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:55 pm

Something like Condorcet voting would help:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condorcet_method

But it still wouldn't lead to the kind of multiparty coalitions you see in Europe.
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by geaux saints » Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:12 pm

WhiteElephant wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:25 pm
I'm mostly lurking this board as there are usually some interesting threads about the PP.

Of course I noticed the political threads lately and I've been pretty interested in them. As a Dutch citizen this board gives me a different perspective of what's going on in the US.

What struck me is how completely polarized the political climate seems, even among board members. This is very hard to imagine for me.
I've been used to Americans telling me it's just the media, and it's really not as bad as it seems. But what I'm reading here is so ridiculously polarized, it's kinda hard to believe people seem so antagonized about this right/left thing. As if it's possible the other half is so completely, fundamentally wrong about, well really, everything. It's the anger, the frustration that's contained in these posts that really strikes me. It definitely seems worse after Trump got elected.

When I compare this to the situation in our 'socialist' western europe, we seem to be having a picnic over here! There are huge differences of opinion course, there always are, but nowhere near this level of anger and polarization between 'left' and 'right', between 'globalists' and 'nationalists'.
It really is quite shocking to me. Is there any way to heal this American toxic political climate?
My experience with hurricanes has shown me that when things get *really* bad, Americans are still capable of coming together. That said, the level of anger I see here just seems out of touch with reality. This forum is full of smart, capable, well off people; why are we all so pissed off all the time? Could we perhaps take the OP as a reminder to get back to basics and focus on the things that matter most?
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by I Shrugged » Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:17 pm

WhiteElephant, thank you for writing from your perspective. Lately I've been wondering if there are countries where a person can live in more harmony with his fellow citizens than we have here in the USA. Yes, the polarization is very strong. Yes, Trump is a big reason. Yes, he is a very flawed person.

But also, he is a direct threat to the establishment. And they can't tolerate that. I believe the establishment would be strongly fighting Trump even if he was a nicer person. One way to look at our current political situation is that Trump's election created a lot of destruction in both parties. The Democrats especially. The Democrats were suddenly down and bewildered, and all of their leaders looked like what they were: washed up, corrupt, and not standing for anything other than being in power. As the saying goes, "nature abhors a vacuum." So the vacuum in the Democratic party is being filled by Euro-style hard leftists. You've had them for years, but this is new to us.

The left is denouncing everyone in Mao-ist fashion, and if you disagree with them, you must be "cancelled". You must lose your job, your admirers, your company name, your pride in your past, etc etc. Heads must roll. Grudges must be settled, apologies are demanded, and of course reparations. It's obvious that nothing will ever be enough. The news and entertainment media and personalities are completely going along with this. I would guess that some of them would like to dissent, but they don't dare. As you might imagine, this development scares a lot of center and right citizens. For this reason, the polarization has gone off the scale.

I think this new left will eventually implode because it is nowhere near the views of the average American. I think the Democratic Party will break apart in some fashion. Being in opposition to Trump is currently uniting them. Actually, if Trump loses in November, the breakup of the Democratic Party might come more quickly. We shall see. In any event, it's bad here.
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by Cortopassi » Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:48 pm

But dammit, this is America, and I demand my freedom from the oppressive government telling me I have to wear a mask.

Masks becoming political is a low point in America.

It will be interesting to see what the rise in cases in the West and South cause politically. There is going to be violence and protests over the next few months, over the virus, lockdowns and masks, I think. I hope the politicians are figuring out how to deal with this rise/second wave with going into lockdown mode again.

"As if it's possible the other half is so completely, fundamentally wrong about, well really, everything. It's the anger, the frustration that's contained in these posts that really strikes me. It definitely seems worse after Trump got elected."

Absolutely. Fox News and CNN top the list of enabling the polarization on TV, as well as thousands of websites you want to espouses your particular view or conspiracy.
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:18 am

It's amazing how much more peaceful my mind is when I don't listen or watch much news for a few days. Even though my circumstances* are identical when watching news or not watching news. I think it comes down to what I tell my family and friends: "You are what you eat." It is important to focus on a good diet (actually and metaphorically).

* Interacting with neighbors, mowing the lawn, reading a book, watching a movie, FaceTiming with distant family members, reading Scripture, hugging my wife, etc.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by Hal » Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:21 am

Mountaineer wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:18 am
It's amazing how much more peaceful my mind is when I don't listen or watch much news for a few days. Even though my circumstances* are identical when watching news or not watching news. I think it comes down to what I tell my family and friends: "You are what you eat." It is important to focus on a good diet (actually and metaphorically).

* Interacting with neighbors, mowing the lawn, reading a book, watching a movie, FaceTiming with distant family members, reading Scripture, hugging my wife, etc.
+1. Many years ago we decided to get rid of the TV and the level of communication in our family went through the roof.

If you would have told me a decade ago our family was discussing stoic philosophy or the bible I would have fell off the chair laughing.

It certainly helped us meet many other interesting people :)
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by Kriegsspiel » Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:28 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:48 pm
But dammit, this is America, and I demand my freedom from the oppressive government telling me I have to wear a mask.

Masks becoming political is a low point in America.
It's interesting to think about how yet another Frenchman might have applied his outsider's perspective to that issue:

"It must not be forgotten that it is especially dangerous to enslave men in the minor details of life. For my own part, I should be inclined to think freedom less necessary in great things than in little ones, if it were possible to be secure of the one without possessing the other.

Subjection in minor affairs breaks out every day, and is felt by the whole community indiscriminately. It does not drive men to resistance, but it crosses them at every turn, till they are led to surrender the exercise of their will. Thus their spirit is gradually broken and their character enervated; whereas that obedience, which is exacted on a few important but rare occasions, only exhibits servitude at certain intervals, and throws the burden of it upon a small number of men. It is vain to summon a people, which has been rendered so dependent on the central power, to choose from time to time the representatives of that power; this rare and brief exercise of their free choice, however important it may be, will not prevent them from gradually losing the faculties of thinking, feeling, and acting for themselves, and thus gradually falling below the level of humanity."

- Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy In America
You there, Ephialtes. May you live forever.
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by Cortopassi » Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:43 am

krieg,

Still driving without a seatbelt? ;)

I remember how contentious that was. And now most everyone does it. And it saves lives without a doubt. Do you feel your freedom is curtailed by that? And it is even more of a personal thing, it likely will only save you. Masks can possibly save others.
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by Cortopassi » Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:10 am

I'm not disputing that there isn't a consensus on masks. All I can do is point to a state, like IL, which seems to have really high mask compliance, vs. some of these southern states, which don't seem to, and the difference in infections. There could be other factors I am not considering for sure.

I know it is a completely different situation, but you obviously wear protection when you work on patients, pug. Why bother? You're obviously stopping something one direction or the other. Logically wouldn't general mask use at least give some protection, even if just from a simple infected sneeze or cough being contained vs. spewed 20 feet?
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by Xan » Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:28 am

The great link that flyingpylon posted in the other thread points out that in Texas, any patient who is hospitalized for whatever reason and happens to test positive for coronavirus (and it isn't even clear whether that means antibodies or an active infection) is counted as a "coronavirus hospitalization". So a lot of the difference between states could be how the numbers are being counted.
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by Cortopassi » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:52 am

Xan wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:28 am
The great link that flyingpylon posted in the other thread points out that in Texas, any patient who is hospitalized for whatever reason and happens to test positive for coronavirus (and it isn't even clear whether that means antibodies or an active infection) is counted as a "coronavirus hospitalization". So a lot of the difference between states could be how the numbers are being counted.
I don't understand this. My sense is many of these states with rising cases lean right, so why on earth would they be in the camp of wanting to potentially over count cases?

Regardless, if you are in the hospital for something else, they have to test you for Covid, makes sense, because they then have to deal with isolation/protocols in dealing with you if you have it, which probably eats up staff and facility resources.

I think the most telling thing was the hospital saying they always want to run ICU beds at 80+% capacity regardless, otherwise it's like empty airline seats. I didn't know that, but it makes sense.
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by Xan » Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:00 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:52 am
Xan wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:28 am
The great link that flyingpylon posted in the other thread points out that in Texas, any patient who is hospitalized for whatever reason and happens to test positive for coronavirus (and it isn't even clear whether that means antibodies or an active infection) is counted as a "coronavirus hospitalization". So a lot of the difference between states could be how the numbers are being counted.
I don't understand this. My sense is many of these states with rising cases lean right, so why on earth would they be in the camp of wanting to potentially over count cases?

Regardless, if you are in the hospital for something else, they have to test you for Covid, makes sense, because they then have to deal with isolation/protocols in dealing with you if you have it, which probably eats up staff and facility resources.

I think the most telling thing was the hospital saying they always want to run ICU beds at 80+% capacity regardless, otherwise it's like empty airline seats. I didn't know that, but it makes sense.
Well, you've got a positive test, and you're in the hospital; I'm guessing it's hard to write a rule that describes what's a "covid reason" versus what isn't. Probably also hard to get doctor to be consistent about such a thing.
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by Cortopassi » Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:03 am

On the country's divide:

An interesting comparison of the home pages of CNN and Fox news. Fox shows nothing of the rise in cases and the rollback of some openings. And CNN is pushing that hard. But Fox is putting stories about wearing masks can be helpful.

Image

Image
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by Tortoise » Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:04 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:52 am
My sense is many of these states with rising cases lean right, so why on earth would they be in the camp of wanting to potentially over count cases?
Perhaps because the CARES Act adds a 20% premium for Covid-19 Medicare patients. I.e., hospitals everywhere have a financial incentive to overcount Covid-19 patients.

https://www.aha.org/advisory/2020-04-16 ... provisions
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by Cortopassi » Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:29 pm

For fun, I went to Denninger to see. He has dug in 200% on the masks are worthless side.

Yes, people are most certainly using them wrong. Yes, I am sure I am using it wrong.

Are people in Asian countries who have been using them for years using them right? Or has 1/4 of the world's population been hoodwinked?

I haven't gotten sick in 4 months. Neither my older daughter who gets about 6 colds a year, easy. Is that from hand washing?

One guy said hey, I can smell perfume through it, so it must be bullshit. Well, the perfume is already out in the air. I know I've seen videos on how a mask limits the distance breath, coughs, sneezes, etc get away from your face. Not 100%, no.

As long as you are washing your hands after removing the mask, is it still not of any benefit at all in your opinion?
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by pp4me » Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:47 pm

Interesting how the OP's original thread about polarization in the forum devolved into a heated discussion about face masks.

IMO, if Gov Cuomo can say that rioting and destroying statues is a "healthy expression" then surely there is nothing wrong with members of the forum expressing their opinions. Especially since it's probably one of the few places you can do it without getting "cancelled".

For the record I only wear a seat belt when I'm in a car where the alarm refuses to stop until you put it on. Which is why I mostly drive the 2006 Dodge and my wife the new CRV.

As for face masks we now have an executive order in my county that they must be worn in public and the stores aren't letting you in if don't have one on. That's the only reason I've been wearing one but I'm avoiding having to go to the store as much as possible.

Biden's statement that he will require the wearing of face masks tells you everything you need know about him. And they call Trump a totalitarian dictator.
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by WiseOne » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:10 pm

I'll chime in here....I also have suspected that masks are largely worthless, and there is certainly zero evidence in support of them.

We had to take an online course in how to don and doff PPE at the beginning of the pandemic. It is not at all easy to get it right and there is a good reason why training is necessary. I regard the mask as mainly a fashion statement.

This is relevant to this thread: if you don't toe the line in the US you can now officially be persecuted in many ways: you can be fired, victimized by violent thugs, singled out for ostracism, etc etc. We used to be able to say we live in a free society, but not anymore!!!
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by flyingpylon » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:22 pm

Back to the original topic... I saw this posted by an acquaintance on social media:
"Agree to disagree" is reserved for things like "I don't like coffee". Not racism, homophobia, and sexism. Not human rights. Not basic common decency. If I unfriend you during this, it IS personal. We do not have a difference of opinion. We have a difference in morality.
When you combine that kind of statement with different opinions about the role of government in people's lives, things can get a bit crazy.

I point out to people that if we didn't give government so much control in the first place then each election would not feel like such a life or death matter and our politics would be a lot less contentious. But that argument doesn't usually go anywhere.
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by Cortopassi » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:31 pm

Then I have to ask all of the Trump/right leaning people here:

You just know Trump, and probably Pence want to call bullshit on how things are being handled. So why is there a vacuum of leadership there? Why do they defer to the task force, then either openly or covertly defy them?

Why not decide they are going to take a different tack? Assemble doctors who side with his thinking? He's done it in every other darn circumstance, he fires people left and right for not towing the line, etc.

Get docs who agree that masks are worthless and show the proof. Get ones who agree we have to isolate those at risk and everyone else go on with their lives. And so on.

Tech, others, why?? I actually would welcome this as well. But why isn't it happening? I was just in a meeting where every individual was of this opinion. So it definitely is widespread. Why is it not being done? Why instead dumb statements like if we test less we'll have less cases?
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by flyingpylon » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:31 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:29 pm
For fun, I went to Denninger to see. He has dug in 200% on the masks are worthless side.

Yes, people are most certainly using them wrong. Yes, I am sure I am using it wrong.
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by pp4me » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:53 pm

flyingpylon wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:22 pm
Back to the original topic... I saw this posted by an acquaintance on social media:
"Agree to disagree" is reserved for things like "I don't like coffee". Not racism, homophobia, and sexism. Not human rights. Not basic common decency. If I unfriend you during this, it IS personal. We do not have a difference of opinion. We have a difference in morality.
When you combine that kind of statement with different opinions about the role of government in people's lives, things can get a bit crazy.

I point out to people that if we didn't give government so much control in the first place then each election would not feel like such a life or death matter and our politics would be a lot less contentious. But that argument doesn't usually go anywhere.
Smoking a pipe on my back porch the other day I was thinking deep thoughts on evolutionary biology (not that I know squat about it but I do know about smoking pipes).

How is it that ants have been programmed to behave with such a singularity of purpose to survive? I mean think about how amazing this is. We think of ourselves as more evolved than they are but how in the hell do they communicate with each other? Did they invent some form of social media we can't currently begin to fathom? And there are many more examples in nature, like the salmon run that takes place every year in Alaska. Or monarch butterflies who require several generations to complete a journey, somehow passing on the knowledge of the ultimate purpose and destination.

Then you have the bears who are much more independent creatures who benefit from the predictability of the salmon.

Makes me wonder which direction humans are heading in. I guess natural selection will ultimately have the answer.
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