Putin Invades Ukraine II

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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by boglerdude » Wed Dec 28, 2022 1:25 am

You dont wake up one day and there's a crematorium next door. It takes years of otherizing people and normalizing the quarantine of healthy people and medical treatments at gunpoint. You stand against this now.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Hal » Wed Dec 28, 2022 1:37 am

boglerdude wrote:
Wed Dec 28, 2022 1:25 am
You dont wake up one day and there's a crematorium next door. It takes years of otherizing people and normalizing the quarantine of healthy people and medical treatments at gunpoint. You stand against this now.
Coincidentally....

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/aus ... conspiracy

Edit: Just about killed myself laughing when I viewed ZeroHedge. Screenshot attached 8)
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by boglerdude » Wed Dec 28, 2022 5:08 am

There's probably at least one person here who'd put me in a gulag if (when!) they can lol. I'm getting less optimistic about what year it will be before we have "world peace" despite there being enough food produced for everyone.

Weapons like this seem built to be used
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=pb5_F4_Eod8

And I'm a savage myself, and watch these videos
https://old.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/top/?t=week
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Wed Dec 28, 2022 5:55 am

stuper1 wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 7:43 pm

Vinny,

I listened to Chomsky with Fridman. I have to say that I was more impressed than I expected to be with Chomsky. He is consistently anti-war, which is fantastic.

The problem with the guy, and also with Fridman, is they are too idealistic. It would be great if the world worked the way they think it should, but it doesn't. Chomsky talked a lot of sense in the interview about how promises were made to Russia that NATO wouldn't expand, and he talked about how the promises were broken. And then he just jumps to saying that the war in Ukraine is all Putin's fault. Now to his credit he says the war in Ukraine is no worse than America's invasions of Vietnam or Iraq. Here's the difference. Vietnam and Iraq are halfway around the world from the USA. Ukraine is right next to Russia. Why do we have to get involved in places that are halfway around the globe? If someone was meddling in Canadian politics and threatening to install an anti-American regime with anti-American ideals and security guarantees in Canada, America would not even blink an eyelid before invading Canada. How is that different from what Russia is doing right now? How is our security improved by NATO being in Ukraine? Would we be any less safe if NATO stopped at Poland instead of continually pushing to be in Ukraine also? I think not. In fact, our security would be improved by stopping at Poland, because we wouldn't be risking a nuclear confrontation with Russia. So, obviously NATO expanding into Ukraine isn't about our national security so much as it is about making money for NATO contractors.

At the end of the day, the USA is basically just involved in a border skirmish between cousins that is none of our business and never was and probably wouldn't have happened in the first place if it hadn't been for our meddling over the last 15 years.


Thanks for listening. By doing so it reveals a certain openmindedness on your part.

To partly answer your question the 9/11 attacks did come from people "halfway around the world from the USA"?

You may or may not be correct in all the rest that you say. I'm not expert in this area nor do I possess all the necessary information to either totally support or totally counter all you say.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow » Wed Dec 28, 2022 8:39 am

vnatale wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:30 pm
dualstow wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:23 pm
]Let me know when the convo drifts back to Putin and Ukraine.[/b]
Which was my purpose for putting here the discussion with Chomsky and Lex.

As I far know .. the only person who has actually listened to it is Dieter ..... everyone else has just commented about Chomsky's reputation to them.

Listen to the discussion of what he has to say about Ukraine and forget about your opinions of Chomsky. Agree or disagree with what he has to say in that discussion about Ukraine and the war.
..
Fair enough. I found an interview from September that I’m reading.
At least he said
First, let me make it clear that I have nothing original to say about the military situation, and have no expert knowledge in this area. What I know is what’s reported, almost entirely from Western sources.

If I find a transcript of the Led Fridman I’ll read that, too. Thanks, Vin.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Dieter » Wed Dec 28, 2022 9:32 am

I know folks are on different sides of this, but hopefully all can appreciate the humor in this

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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by stuper1 » Wed Dec 28, 2022 10:16 am

vnatale wrote:
Wed Dec 28, 2022 5:55 am
stuper1 wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 7:43 pm
Vinny,

I listened to Chomsky with Fridman. I have to say that I was more impressed than I expected to be with Chomsky. He is consistently anti-war, which is fantastic.

The problem with the guy, and also with Fridman, is they are too idealistic. It would be great if the world worked the way they think it should, but it doesn't. Chomsky talked a lot of sense in the interview about how promises were made to Russia that NATO wouldn't expand, and he talked about how the promises were broken. And then he just jumps to saying that the war in Ukraine is all Putin's fault. Now to his credit he says the war in Ukraine is no worse than America's invasions of Vietnam or Iraq. Here's the difference. Vietnam and Iraq are halfway around the world from the USA. Ukraine is right next to Russia. Why do we have to get involved in places that are halfway around the globe? If someone was meddling in Canadian politics and threatening to install an anti-American regime with anti-American ideals and security guarantees in Canada, America would not even blink an eyelid before invading Canada. How is that different from what Russia is doing right now? How is our security improved by NATO being in Ukraine? Would we be any less safe if NATO stopped at Poland instead of continually pushing to be in Ukraine also? I think not. In fact, our security would be improved by stopping at Poland, because we wouldn't be risking a nuclear confrontation with Russia. So, obviously NATO expanding into Ukraine isn't about our national security so much as it is about making money for NATO contractors.

At the end of the day, the USA is basically just involved in a border skirmish between cousins that is none of our business and never was and probably wouldn't have happened in the first place if it hadn't been for our meddling over the last 15 years.
Thanks for listening. By doing so it reveals a certain openmindedness on your part.

To partly answer your question the 9/11 attacks did come from people "halfway around the world from the USA"?

You may or may not be correct in all the rest that you say. I'm not expert in this area nor do I possess all the necessary information to either totally support or totally counter all you say.
The 9/11 attacks are a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Did the 9/11 attacks happen in a vacuum? Did a few terrorists just wake up one morning and decide they want to attack the US out of the blue? The first thing I thought of when I saw the attacks was, "oh my goodness, what did we do to make those people so mad at us?" As I dug into it more, I found out exactly what we did, which was meddling in their affairs halfway around the globe, just like we are doing in Ukraine. Constantly meddling in other people's business is something the US government specializes in. Do you ever wonder why that is? Follow the money.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by stuper1 » Wed Dec 28, 2022 10:33 am

People on this forum are somewhat interested in economics at times. Do you remember case studies of big government programs that were designed to help poor people, and in the end after spending boatloads of money, it turned out the government had made things worse off for the very people who the program was designed to help? In other words, typical big government stuff. Utopian ideas, dreamt up by bleeding-heart liberals, that don't actually work in the real world, because the laws of economics don't care about utopian, pie-in-the-sky ideas.

That's exactly what's going on in Ukraine, except instead of the poor, downtrodden people just getting a bit poorer because of the big government USA program, the people are freezing to death, starving, and getting blown to bits. The more aid we send in, the longer it will go on. And we never should have been involved in the first place, because we only made things worse from the beginning with our meddling.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow » Wed Dec 28, 2022 10:58 am

But would you agree, stuper that they have made up their own minds to fight? They are not automatons who are continuing to fight because we're giving them weaponry. (Yes, I do recall previous notes from Silent Majority about the U.S. meddling with Ukraine's gov't. I acknowledge those). Rather, they are asking for weaponry because they are not ready to lie down.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by stuper1 » Wed Dec 28, 2022 11:32 am

It's a lot more complicated question than whether "they" have made up their own minds to fight. Western and eastern Ukraine are two different cultures, imagine something like say Chinese and Japanese. Western Ukraine is very anti-Russian. Eastern Ukraine leans more toward Russia. Russia went into Ukraine for two reasons. I'm not sure which was higher in their minds. One was that the eastern Ukrainians were being severely mistreated by the Zelensky regime, including actual military shelling that killed thousands. The other was Russia didn't want Ukraine to be part of NATO, just like the USA wouldn't allow Canada to be part of an anti-American alliance.

So when you say "they" have made up their own minds to fight, I'm sure Zelensky has made up his mind and is conscripting as many people as he can. How many of the conscripts want to fight? That's anybody's guess. I'll tell you what. I don't think I'm hugely courageous. I also don't think I'm more cowardly than the average person. If I was Ukrainian, even from western Ukraine, I wouldn't be staying around to fight. I'd be doing everything I could to get myself and my family out of there. Can you imagine dying for a corrupt actor like Zelensky?
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by stuper1 » Wed Dec 28, 2022 11:42 am

Dieter wrote:
Wed Dec 28, 2022 9:32 am
I know folks are on different sides of this, but hopefully all can appreciate the humor in this

Image
I won't comment on the humor aspect, because I've learned I'm not qualified to judge humor. I'll just grant for the sake of argument that it's funny (at least if you're no older than 12, maybe 16, years of age).

I would like to point out that the people who make these memes seem to want to have it both ways. Sometimes they want us to believe that Putin is a murderous psychopath who could vaporize Zelensky and all of Kyiv by pushing a single red button to launch a nuclear missile. Other times they want us to believe that Putin is an impotent fool who should be mocked to his face because he has no actual power.

I find it interesting and confusing. Which one is it? Or are we just being played for fools ourselves?
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by seajay » Wed Dec 28, 2022 12:01 pm

dualstow wrote:
Wed Dec 28, 2022 10:58 am
But would you agree, stuper that they have made up their own minds to fight? They are not automatons who are continuing to fight because we're giving them weaponry. (Yes, I do recall previous notes from Silent Majority about the U.S. meddling with Ukraine's gov't. I acknowledge those). Rather, they are asking for weaponry because they are not ready to lie down.
Choice of living under a obscene terrorist dictatorship (Russia) - that has no respect/regard for even the lives of its own citizens - or resisting such occupation to remain part of the civilized world. Even some Russian soldiers have opted to move over to support (fight for) Ukraine - recognizing the bad place into which Putin has directed Russia.

Less than 90 years since Russia intentionally starved millions of Ukrainian's to death (forbade travel, confiscated farm land and rationing cards, and even raided homes to have food removed).
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Wed Dec 28, 2022 12:01 pm

dualstow wrote:
Wed Dec 28, 2022 8:39 am

vnatale wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:30 pm

dualstow wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:23 pm

]Let me know when the convo drifts back to Putin and Ukraine.[/b]


Which was my purpose for putting here the discussion with Chomsky and Lex.

As I far know .. the only person who has actually listened to it is Dieter ..... everyone else has just commented about Chomsky's reputation to them.

Listen to the discussion of what he has to say about Ukraine and forget about your opinions of Chomsky. Agree or disagree with what he has to say in that discussion about Ukraine and the war.
..


Fair enough. I found an interview from September that I’m reading.
At least he said
First, let me make it clear that I have nothing original to say about the military situation, and have no expert knowledge in this area. What I know is what’s reported, almost entirely from Western sources.

If I find a transcript of the Led Fridman I’ll read that, too. Thanks, Vin.


I do not think there is any transcript but if you do not want to listen to the whole 47 minute discussion (which is Extremely short for a Lex discussion / interview) this might be helpful for you to just listen to the topics they discussed of interest to you:

OUTLINE:
0:00 - Introduction
1:51 - Putin's motivations
14:57 - War in Ukraine
22:00 - Propaganda
29:24 - China and American relations
44:24 - Hope for humanity
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by seajay » Wed Dec 28, 2022 12:11 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Wed Dec 28, 2022 11:32 am
Western Ukraine is very anti-Russian. Eastern Ukraine leans more toward Russia.
... as socially engineered by Russia. Send in migrants, force schools to only teach in Russian and Russian doctrine. Inciting a war that started eight years ago in response to such a social engineered invasion.

Not the only case for the weaponization by Russia of mass migrations.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by stuper1 » Wed Dec 28, 2022 12:21 pm

seajay wrote:
Wed Dec 28, 2022 12:11 pm
stuper1 wrote:
Wed Dec 28, 2022 11:32 am
Western Ukraine is very anti-Russian. Eastern Ukraine leans more toward Russia.
... as socially engineered by Russia. Send in migrants, force schools to only teach in Russian and Russian doctrine. Inciting a war that started eight years ago in response to such a social engineered invasion.

Not the only case for the weaponization by Russia of mass migrations.
When did this Russian mass migration into Ukraine occur?

Samuel Huntington in his well-known book Clash of Civilizations says: "Ukraine is a cleft country with two distinct cultures. The civilizational fault line between the West and Orthodoxy runs through the heart of Ukraine and has done so for centuries." He also mentions that Ukraine was controlled politically from Moscow from 1654 until 1991 except for 3 years from 1917 to 1920 when Ukraine was an independent republic.

Voting patterns in recent elections within Ukraine as a whole have been basically 50/50 between a pro-Russian government and an anti-Russian government.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Dieter » Wed Dec 28, 2022 1:26 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Wed Dec 28, 2022 11:42 am
Dieter wrote:
Wed Dec 28, 2022 9:32 am
I know folks are on different sides of this, but hopefully all can appreciate the humor in this

Image
I won't comment on the humor aspect, because I've learned I'm not qualified to judge humor. I'll just grant for the sake of argument that it's funny (at least if you're no older than 12, maybe 16, years of age).

I would like to point out that the people who make these memes seem to want to have it both ways. Sometimes they want us to believe that Putin is a murderous psychopath who could vaporize Zelensky and all of Kyiv by pushing a single red button to launch a nuclear missile. Other times they want us to believe that Putin is an impotent fool who should be mocked to his face because he has no actual power.

I find it interesting and confusing. Which one is it? Or are we just being played for fools ourselves?
Um, saying that people who find it funny are children is commenting on the humor of it

Just saying

And not sure the rest — Russia attacked Ukraine from the north. Russia assaulted an airport near Kyiv.

They were trying to take Kyiv

And I think they still want to

But haven’t yet

Ukrainian defiance

Doesn’t say anything if they failed because of Russians being inept or Ukrainians that good

(I think a combination)
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow » Wed Dec 28, 2022 1:38 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Wed Dec 28, 2022 11:32 am
It's a lot more complicated question than whether "they" have made up their own minds to fight.
"They": I’m referring to those who took up arms from the beginning. All ages, male and female. They were not conscripted. Yes, there are those who want to leave and cannot. Turns out the world is not perfect and Ukraine is not perfect. But, I'm not referring to those who were later pressed into service.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow » Wed Dec 28, 2022 1:40 pm

seajay wrote:
Wed Dec 28, 2022 12:11 pm
stuper1 wrote:
Wed Dec 28, 2022 11:32 am
Western Ukraine is very anti-Russian. Eastern Ukraine leans more toward Russia.
... as socially engineered by Russia. Send in migrants, force schools to only teach in Russian and Russian doctrine. Inciting a war that started eight years ago in response to such a social engineered invasion.

Not the only case for the weaponization by Russia of mass migrations.
I appreciate that you pointed that out.

Yeah, stuper, I mean no one really believes that true Tibetans are pro-China. That would be a joke. But there is no shortage of Han Chinese who now live in Tibet and who would vote pro-China if there were referendums.
I don't see Ukraine as being so different.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by stuper1 » Wed Dec 28, 2022 2:01 pm

This is the bleeding-heart-liberal way of looking at this: we are just providing arms to these people so they can fight for their country.

As if all this stuff just started in February 2022.

This is reality: the time when they should have been fighting for their independence was for the last 15 years. When NATO started sniffing around, if they would have had wise leaders, or if they would have insisted that their leaders act wisely, they would have told NATO, "no thanks, go away, we are a sovereign, independent country; we don't want you here causing trouble."

Let's imagine that Canada started getting in bed with China. Oh, it's no big deal if China wants to have a naval base in Vancouver. Oh, it's no big deal if China wants to put an army base near Toronto. Oh, it's no big deal if China wants to put "defensive" missiles across Canada, because it's all just defensive you see. Nevermind that those same missile launching systems can also be used for offensive missiles.

How do you think the USA would take all of this? Do you think there would be any pushback from the USA? Do you think there would be any drawing of red lines? And what would happen if the red lines got crossed?

Some of you guys never think about things from the other guy's perspective. You just want to buy into a narrative that Putin is this big, bad meanie. Do you ever think that Putin has 150 million normal, average people behind him, and the majority of them are telling him that if he doesn't stand up for Russia, they are going to find someone a little tougher to take his place who will stand up for Russia? If Canada were getting in bed with China, do you think the American people would be saying something like that to the American leader?
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by stuper1 » Wed Dec 28, 2022 2:24 pm

To take the Canada analogy a bit further. Let's say the French Canadians are now in charge of the government, and while they are getting in bed with China, they are mistreating the English-speaking Canadians.

When America starts complaining about this, you're going to be there criticizing America I'm sure because supposedly America just recently sent a mass migration of English-speaking people across the border to create a reason for complaint.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by stuper1 » Wed Dec 28, 2022 2:41 pm

dualstow wrote:
Wed Dec 28, 2022 1:40 pm
seajay wrote:
Wed Dec 28, 2022 12:11 pm
stuper1 wrote:
Wed Dec 28, 2022 11:32 am
Western Ukraine is very anti-Russian. Eastern Ukraine leans more toward Russia.
... as socially engineered by Russia. Send in migrants, force schools to only teach in Russian and Russian doctrine. Inciting a war that started eight years ago in response to such a social engineered invasion.

Not the only case for the weaponization by Russia of mass migrations.
I appreciate that you pointed that out.

Yeah, stuper, I mean no one really believes that true Tibetans are pro-China. That would be a joke. But there is no shortage of Han Chinese who now live in Tibet and who would vote pro-China if there were referendums.
I don't see Ukraine as being so different.
Is it true though that Russia sent in migrants to Ukraine in recent years? Or does that not matter? I don't really know, so I'm happy to be educated on the topic.

I don't automatically trust what Wikipedia says because I have seen examples where the information seems to be biased, but here's what it has to say about Russian emigration to Ukraine:

"In general the population of ethnic Russians in Ukraine increased due to assimilation and in-migration between 1897 and 1939 despite the famine, war and Revolution. Since 1991 it has decreased drastically in all regions, both quantitatively and proportionally. Ukraine in general lost 3 million Russians, or a little over one-quarter of all Russians living there in the 10-year period between 1991 and 2001, dropping from over 22% of the population of Ukraine to just over 17%. In the past 15 years since 2001, a further drop of Russian numbers has continued."
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow » Wed Dec 28, 2022 2:43 pm

stuper1 wrote:This is reality: the time when they should have been fighting for their independence was for the last 15 years.
Tell it to the Ukrainians.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow » Wed Dec 28, 2022 2:53 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Wed Dec 28, 2022 11:42 am
I would like to point out that the people who make these memes seem to want to have it both ways. Sometimes they want us to believe that Putin is a murderous psychopath who could vaporize Zelensky and all of Kyiv by pushing a single red button to launch a nuclear missile. Other times they want us to believe that Putin is an impotent fool who should be mocked to his face because he has no actual power.

I find it interesting and confusing. Which one is it? Or are we just being played for fools ourselves?
Obviously, the devil is in the details of who is doing the mocking. Even an impotent fool can strangle the person he shares his bed with, and anyone can push a button.
I haven't read that Putin "has no actual power." Far from the case. I have read that he thought the war, his "special operation" would be over in days and repeatedly that things are not going his way. For that reason, there are plenty who mock him. Still, those are not the people in the war room, nor the diplomats in between.

Have you noticed that South Park made an entire movie mocking Kim Jong-il, complete with a song, and that we're still here? Why haven't we been reduced to ashes? Because Kim Jong-il understood that South Park didn't equal the U.S. government and maybe it wasn't worth risking his own women-and-cheese-laden life over mocking from a non-player. Otherwise, we would have been nuked many times over. (You can see that North Korea did do some hacking over 'The Interview', a mocking film that came out during Kim Jong-un's reign).

Putin is not impotent, but perhaps he was receiving too many falsely uplifting reports from underlings who didn't want to bring the king bad news, i.e. the truth. (This was also detailed in the Cai Xia essay about Xi Jinping).
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by stuper1 » Wed Dec 28, 2022 3:00 pm

dualstow wrote:
Wed Dec 28, 2022 2:43 pm
stuper1 wrote:This is reality: the time when they should have been fighting for their independence was for the last 15 years.
Tell it to the Ukrainians.
What's the sign that people like to post at their desks? Something like: "Your lack of planning doesn't make it an emergency for me."

That's the point here. Just because they couldn't have a little foresight to see that flirting with NATO was going to bring huge problems their way, doesn't mean that we should be shipping weapons over there to try to bail them out at the last minute. At this point, it's just making things worse and getting lots of people killed, the very people who supposedly we are helping. Which is just like most big government programs that actually hurt the very people who were supposed to get helped.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by stuper1 » Wed Dec 28, 2022 3:10 pm

dualstow wrote:
Wed Dec 28, 2022 2:53 pm
stuper1 wrote:
Wed Dec 28, 2022 11:42 am
I would like to point out that the people who make these memes seem to want to have it both ways. Sometimes they want us to believe that Putin is a murderous psychopath who could vaporize Zelensky and all of Kyiv by pushing a single red button to launch a nuclear missile. Other times they want us to believe that Putin is an impotent fool who should be mocked to his face because he has no actual power.

I find it interesting and confusing. Which one is it? Or are we just being played for fools ourselves?
Obviously, the devil is in the details of who is doing the mocking. Even an impotent fool can strangle the person he shares his bed with, and anyone can push a button.
I haven't read that Putin "has no actual power." Far from the case. I have read that he thought the war, his "special operation" would be over in days and repeatedly that things are not going his way. For that reason, there are plenty who mock him. Still, those are not the people in the war room, nor the diplomats in between.

Have you noticed that South Park made an entire movie mocking Kim Jong-il, complete with a song, and that we're still here? Why haven't we been reduced to ashes? Because Kim Jong-il understood that South Park didn't equal the U.S. government and maybe it wasn't worth risking his own women-and-cheese-laden life over mocking from a non-player. Otherwise, we would have been nuked many times over. (You can see that North Korea did do some hacking over 'The Interview', a mocking film that came out during Kim Jong-un's reign).

Putin is not impotent, but perhaps he was receiving too many falsely uplifting reports from underlings who didn't want to bring the king bad news, i.e. the truth. (This was also detailed in the Cai Xia essay about Xi Jinping).
Obviously at this point West and East are just calling each other names. We might as well be back in high school. There's little to no hope for actual diplomacy or trying to understand things from the other side's perspective.

On those reports you read about Putin's supposed timeline for how long the operation would take, were any of those in Russian or translated from Russian? That whole narrative was highly suspect, at least to me. Where did this information come from that Putin thought the thing would be over in days? I'll have to go back to the statements from the Russian side and see if they provided an estimated timeline at the beginning. I'm pretty sure they didn't. That whole story most likely came from the West, as in for all we know, somebody just made it up because they knew it would sell.
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