Not Even Harry Browne Thought It Was Going To Be This Bad

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Re: Not Even Harry Browne Thought It Was Going To Be This Bad

Post by Libertarian666 »

Pointedstick wrote:
Libertarian666 wrote: The fact is that I sleep a lot better with my admittedly unusual asset arrangement than I would with any more common one, even the PP. And isn't that the point of the PP in the first place?
That's really all that matters. If it helps you sleep better, all the best my friend.

Still, I'm gonna keep on rooting for diversification. If you're right, then 75% of my assets could go to zero, but at least I have that 25% in gold, which will probably skyrocket. It'll probably be to the point where desperate gold-less people are selling their houses for mere ounces of it. So I'll probably do okay and may even become a real estate magnate. ;)

By contrast, since you haven't hedged your bets at all, in the event you're wrong and gold goes down to $200/oz while the dollar strengthens and the stock market racks up persistent gains, your portfolio is going to be ruined. If the U.S. financial system stubbornly resists collapsing for another 50 years, your early retirement may be cut very short. On the plus side, if the economy improves, it will probably be easy for someone with your intelligence to get a job.
If the other assets drop like a stone and you keep rebalancing out of gold, eventually you'll end up with very little gold.

And I actually have a job, so that possibility is covered.  ;D
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Re: Not Even Harry Browne Thought It Was Going To Be This Bad

Post by Gumby »

Libertarian666 wrote:If the other assets drop like a stone and you keep rebalancing out of gold, eventually you'll end up with very little gold.
I think you mean, if other assets drop "gradually". Because, if the other assets "drop like a stone" (i.e. quickly) there would only be barely enough time to initiate a single rebalancing — not multiple. Not to mention you probably wouldn't even rebalance if your currency died so suddenly.

And if all of the other assets dropped so quickly, the civilized world would pretty much be over anyway. You'd only be able to recover whatever gold was is your immediate possession in that case — and the world would look a lot like a post-apocolypse.
Last edited by Gumby on Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Not Even Harry Browne Thought It Was Going To Be This Bad

Post by Gumby »

I'll also point out that most of Wall Street doesn't even take the risk of currency collapse into their risk models. The reason why is because if the currency did collapse, they are well aware of the fact that any contracts for gold would never be delivered.

So, unless one has a bathtub full of physical gold (Scrooge McDuck style) and an armed bunker to keep it well protected, any investment outside of one's immediate protection will likely be looted or seized in the event of a dollar collapse. Even if your assets are stored in a Swiss Bank, the bank and the Swiss government would likely be unable to function when every Fortune 500 company loses access to the world credit markets and global networks that keep them in business. Electronic money would just grind to a halt — and civilization with it. No more internet. No more ATMs. No more paychecks. No more bank tellers. No more flights to Switzerland. No more Fidelity or Vanguard. Nothing. Just looting and seizing whatever assets are left.

In other words, one might as well hope for the best since almost all investments will either disappear or be robbed in the event of a dollar collapse (no matter which country they reside in).
Last edited by Gumby on Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Not Even Harry Browne Thought It Was Going To Be This Bad

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Gumby wrote: I'll also point out that most of Wall Street doesn't even take the risk of currency collapse into their risk models. The reason why is because if the currency did collapse, they are well aware of the fact that any contracts for gold would never be delivered.

So, unless one has a bathtub full of physical gold (Scrooge McDuck style) and an armed bunker to keep it well protected, any investment outside of one's immediate protection will likely be looted or seized in the event of a dollar collapse. Even if your assets are stored in a Swiss Bank, the bank and the Swiss government would likely be unable to function when every Fortune 500 company loses access to the world credit markets and global networks that keep them in business. Electronic money would just grind to a halt — and civilization with it. No more internet. No more bank tellers. No more flights to Switzerland. No more Fidelity or Vanguard. Nothing.

In other words, one might as well hope for the best since almost all investments will either disappear or be robbed in the event of a dollar collapse (no matter which country they reside in).
This was pretty much my conclusion as well when I was investigating the safest way to hold gold as a true "catastrophe insurance." If you can't touch it within 20 minutes, it's gonna be gone. Maybe even within 2 minutes, depending on the severity of the catastrophe. In any event, GLD and IAU are going to just evaporate in this kind of scenario. You're gonna want hard assets like physical gold, canned beans, guns, a house, a water supply; not to mention useful skills.
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Re: Not Even Harry Browne Thought It Was Going To Be This Bad

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Pointedstick wrote: This was pretty much my conclusion as well when I was investigating the safest way to hold gold as a true "catastrophe insurance." If you can't touch it within 20 minutes, it's gonna be gone. Maybe even within 2 minutes, depending on the severity of the catastrophe. In any event, GLD and IAU are going to just evaporate in this kind of scenario. You're gonna want hard assets like physical gold, canned beans, guns, a house, a water supply; not to mention useful skills.
Best practice would probably be to keep gold on your person at all times.  ;)
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Re: Not Even Harry Browne Thought It Was Going To Be This Bad

Post by Libertarian666 »

Pointedstick wrote:
Gumby wrote: I'll also point out that most of Wall Street doesn't even take the risk of currency collapse into their risk models. The reason why is because if the currency did collapse, they are well aware of the fact that any contracts for gold would never be delivered.

So, unless one has a bathtub full of physical gold (Scrooge McDuck style) and an armed bunker to keep it well protected, any investment outside of one's immediate protection will likely be looted or seized in the event of a dollar collapse. Even if your assets are stored in a Swiss Bank, the bank and the Swiss government would likely be unable to function when every Fortune 500 company loses access to the world credit markets and global networks that keep them in business. Electronic money would just grind to a halt — and civilization with it. No more internet. No more bank tellers. No more flights to Switzerland. No more Fidelity or Vanguard. Nothing.

In other words, one might as well hope for the best since almost all investments will either disappear or be robbed in the event of a dollar collapse (no matter which country they reside in).
This was pretty much my conclusion as well when I was investigating the safest way to hold gold as a true "catastrophe insurance." If you can't touch it within 20 minutes, it's gonna be gone. Maybe even within 2 minutes, depending on the severity of the catastrophe. In any event, GLD and IAU are going to just evaporate in this kind of scenario. You're gonna want hard assets like physical gold, canned beans, guns, a house, a water supply; not to mention useful skills.
Who said anything about GLD and IAU? They could disappear at any time without a collapse. I don't trust JPM or Blackrock at all.

CEF, on the other hand, I suspect will survive and be accessible eventually.

Of course, that's not my only hard asset...
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Re: Not Even Harry Browne Thought It Was Going To Be This Bad

Post by Pointedstick »

MediumTex wrote:
Pointedstick wrote: This was pretty much my conclusion as well when I was investigating the safest way to hold gold as a true "catastrophe insurance." If you can't touch it within 20 minutes, it's gonna be gone. Maybe even within 2 minutes, depending on the severity of the catastrophe. In any event, GLD and IAU are going to just evaporate in this kind of scenario. You're gonna want hard assets like physical gold, canned beans, guns, a house, a water supply; not to mention useful skills.
Best practice would probably be to keep gold on your person at all times.  ;)
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Re: Not Even Harry Browne Thought It Was Going To Be This Bad

Post by Gumby »

Libertarian666 wrote:CEF, on the other hand, I suspect will survive and be accessible eventually.
Unlikely. Keep in mind that when the dollar collapses, the world credit markets would grind to a halt. No corporation on the planet would be able to pay their employees — so every modern service in the world would go kaput the second the employees could no longer be paid. Electricity and internet service would disappear — rendering all markets and services dead. Transportation would stop running. ATMs would stop working. And our beloved CEF would be toast.

Why?

Because before the power went out, every Canadian would rush to their local bank and try to withdraw their deposits. The bank would be unable to comply due to their inability to access their own electronic assets and the fact that all assets would go to "zero" from all the redemptions. The entire planet — along with all the bankrupt banks — would be screwed in a matter of hours.

And once the power did go out, the looting would begin as bank employees ran home to be with their families.

So, nobody at CEF is going to wait around to hand you your gold with a smile on their faces. Instead, the gold window at CEF will look something like this:

[align=center]Image[/align]

And all the gold will be gone. Again, this is exactly why Wall Street does not calculate a dollar collapse into their risk models. They know that "game over" means "game over".

And if the Canadian government is somehow able to park a tank outside of the CEF vault before the looting begins (again, unlikely) the Canadian government will likely just seize all the gold so that it can pay soldiers to keep showing up for work. They certainly aren't going to be handing gold to US citizens who clamor over the border toting their bank statements in hand.
Last edited by Gumby on Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Not Even Harry Browne Thought It Was Going To Be This Bad

Post by Libertarian666 »

Public notice:

I'm not going to reply to any posts by Gumby. His arrogant attitude of knowing everything is unacceptable.

Is there an "ignore member" feature? If so, I will use it to ignore his posts. Otherwise I will merely scroll by them.

Note that this does not mean I agree with anything he says. I don't.
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Re: Not Even Harry Browne Thought It Was Going To Be This Bad

Post by Gumby »

Libertarian666 wrote:His arrogant attitude of knowing everything is unacceptable.
My apologies, Tech. It's very easy to misjudge tone on the Internet. Would it help you if I put smileys after everything I say? :)

It was not my intention to be "arrogant". Just merely trying to express a different opinion that yours. That is allowed isn't it?  :)

For future reference, it probably helps to read my writing in the voice of Woody Allen or Erkel....or better yet, "Gumby". :)

Also, whether you reply or not to my comments makes little difference to me. My comments aren't so much meant for you as they are meant for other who are actually trying to open their minds to other perspectives. ( :) )
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Re: Not Even Harry Browne Thought It Was Going To Be This Bad

Post by moda0306 »

Tech,

I don't know if you dislike debating, but Gumby obviously loves it.  It's like a game for him.  And yes, a game's going to get a little snarky, but come on. This is good stuff... Even the Austrian side.  It seems like you don't even enjoy debating this stuff, but if you truly think MR is complete hogwash and adds nothing to economics at all than we truly are talking past each other and should probably pull back a bit.

Hell I don't even mind getting quadruple teamed in a debate about the role of government.  I get snarky.  It's not personal.  I think austrianism has some phenomenal qualities.  They just need to be dissected out of a lot of other really poisonous stuff.

Maybe we can start with a discussion of the nature of a Chartalist system (taxation induces demand for fiat currency) to help illustrate a more simple-to-understand theory to get us to start to grasp MR and here Austrians may be misinterpreting things.

Did you get a chance to read my example of "how to create a fiat currency" and what other fiat currencies were created in the past?
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Re: Not Even Harry Browne Thought It Was Going To Be This Bad

Post by Libertarian666 »

moda0306 wrote: Tech,

I don't know if you dislike debating, but Gumby obviously loves it.  It's like a game for him.  And yes, a game's going to get a little snarky, but come on. This is good stuff... Even the Austrian side.  It seems like you don't even enjoy debating this stuff, but if you truly think MR is complete hogwash and adds nothing to economics at all than we truly are talking past each other and should probably pull back a bit.
I don't mind debating about something that I think is actually a valid disagreement, so long as the debate is on actual issues rather than the implication that one's opponent is mentally deficient or emotionally unbalanced for not accepting a particular theoretical framework. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be possible for some people to stick to the issues.

For one example, I am not going to discuss MR further, as I know enough about it to decide that (IMO) it is not of value to me. Thus, there is no point in someone trying to talk me into it, just as there is no point in my trying to talk someone into believing in the FSM.

And as for the issue of my asset allocation, that is just part of my "life allocation" strategy, which includes many other considerations that I'm not going to discuss here. So again, telling me that "if that happens, everything you have is toast anyway" is not a useful comment in my opinion.
moda0306 wrote: Hell I don't even mind getting quadruple teamed in a debate about the role of government.  I get snarky.  It's not personal.  I think austrianism has some phenomenal qualities.  They just need to be dissected out of a lot of other really poisonous stuff.

Maybe we can start with a discussion of the nature of a Chartalist system (taxation induces demand for fiat currency) to help illustrate a more simple-to-understand theory to get us to start to grasp MR and here Austrians may be misinterpreting things.

Did you get a chance to read my example of "how to create a fiat currency" and what other fiat currencies were created in the past?
I saw your hypothetical example. Did you provide any actual historical examples? If so, I apologize for missing them somehow.
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Re: Not Even Harry Browne Thought It Was Going To Be This Bad

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Libertarian666 wrote:so long as the debate is on actual issues rather than the implication that one's opponent is mentally deficient or emotionally unbalanced for not accepting a particular theoretical framework.
I'm not sure how you read those implications from my comments, but I never ever intended to give that impression.
Libertarian666 wrote:So again, telling me that "if that happens, everything you have is toast anyway" is not a useful comment in my opinion.
Normally in a forum setting, you would just reply by saying, "I disagree, and here's why...". You know. A debate. An exchange of opinions and ideas, etc.

If you aren't interested in debating or learning new perspectives, why are you posting in the first place? :)
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Re: Not Even Harry Browne Thought It Was Going To Be This Bad

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Libertarian666 wrote:
moda0306 wrote: Tech,

I don't know if you dislike debating, but Gumby obviously loves it.  It's like a game for him.  And yes, a game's going to get a little snarky, but come on. This is good stuff... Even the Austrian side.  It seems like you don't even enjoy debating this stuff, but if you truly think MR is complete hogwash and adds nothing to economics at all than we truly are talking past each other and should probably pull back a bit.
I don't mind debating about something that I think is actually a valid disagreement, so long as the debate is on actual issues rather than the implication that one's opponent is mentally deficient or emotionally unbalanced for not accepting a particular theoretical framework. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be possible for some people to stick to the issues.

For one example, I am not going to discuss MR further, as I know enough about it to decide that (IMO) it is not of value to me. Thus, there is no point in someone trying to talk me into it, just as there is no point in my trying to talk someone into believing in the FSM.

And as for the issue of my asset allocation, that is just part of my "life allocation" strategy, which includes many other considerations that I'm not going to discuss here. So again, telling me that "if that happens, everything you have is toast anyway" is not a useful comment in my opinion.
moda0306 wrote: Hell I don't even mind getting quadruple teamed in a debate about the role of government.  I get snarky.  It's not personal.  I think austrianism has some phenomenal qualities.  They just need to be dissected out of a lot of other really poisonous stuff.

Maybe we can start with a discussion of the nature of a Chartalist system (taxation induces demand for fiat currency) to help illustrate a more simple-to-understand theory to get us to start to grasp MR and here Austrians may be misinterpreting things.

Did you get a chance to read my example of "how to create a fiat currency" and what other fiat currencies were created in the past?
I saw your hypothetical example. Did you provide any actual historical examples? If so, I apologize for missing them somehow.
As I've mentioned, I wasn't trying to imply you're mentally unbalanced... Just human. It's hard to change deeply held opinions, especially if there's a moral plight tied to them.


As far as fiat-from-birth scenario, none is as simple as I've laid out for simplicity's sake.

The easiest close examples without doing a ton of research are:

Greenbacks during the civil war
Tally sticks in Britain
British fiat currency introduced to Africa is probably the best example


Sorry no links. I'm busy and this is from my phone. :)
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Re: Not Even Harry Browne Thought It Was Going To Be This Bad

Post by Wonk »

I have to admit I just skimmed the last few pages of this thread, but the "dollar crash" scenarios don't appear to be very realistic.  Let's say the world loses faith in the USD and the beginnings of an epic crash are imminent.  Instead of TEOTWAWKI, wouldn't a more likely scenario be a national bank holiday followed by another gold standard?  An overnight devaluation is relatively painless and instantly resets the system.

Say a crisis erupted tonight.  By Monday morning, the U.S. could re-peg the USD to gold at the Bretton Woods M1 level(40%) of $3800/oz in order to restore international confidence.  No zombies, no bunkers, no canned food.  Do we really think that's an unrealistic scenario given the alternatives? 

To be clear, I'm not saying this will happen--only that in such a crisis, this option appears to be the path of least resistance.
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Re: Not Even Harry Browne Thought It Was Going To Be This Bad

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Libertarian666 wrote:I am not going to discuss MR further, as I know enough about it to decide that (IMO) it is not of value to me. Thus, there is no point in someone trying to talk me into it, just as there is no point in my trying to talk someone into believing in the FSM.
I'm saying this as politely as I can... But, MR isn't a theory or something you believe in or not. It is literally nothing more than a description of how the Primary Dealers, the Fed and the Treasury move money around from account to account — like the example of the laundromat change machine that cannot possibly create any inflationary pressures inside a laundromat. If the MR descriptions are incorrect about Fed/Treasury operations, the text is corrected when the error is pointed out.

So, to compare MR to a myth is to say that its literal descriptions of the Fed, the Treasury and Primary Dealer operations are incorrect. And yet, since you won't listen to those descriptions, I'm confused as to how you could possibly come to the conclusions that the operational descriptions are incorrect.

The Fed only swaps assets with Primary Dealers. I'm saying this as nicely as I can, but that's a fact.

The Treasury only holds auctions when Primary Dealers are in a position to drain their excess reserves. The Fed outlines this tight relationship right on the Fed's website:
Federal Reserve Bank of New York wrote:Staff on the Desk start each workday by gathering information about the market's activities from a number of sources. The Fed's traders discuss with the primary dealers how the day might unfold in the securities market and how the dealers' task of financing their securities positions is progressing. Desk staff also talk with the large banks about their reserve needs and the banks' plans for meeting them and with fed funds brokers about activities in that market.

Reserve forecasters at the New York Fed and at the Board of Governors in Washington, D.C., compile data on bank reserves for the previous day and make projections of factors that could affect reserves for future days. The staff also receives information from the Treasury about its balance at the Federal Reserve and assists the Treasury in managing this balance and Treasury accounts at commercial banks.

Following the discussion with the Treasury, forecasts of reserves are completed. Then, after reviewing all of the information gathered from the various sources, Desk staff develop a plan of action for the day.

That plan is reviewed with interested parties around the system during a conference call held each morning. Conditions in financial markets, including domestic securities and money markets and foreign exchange markets also are reviewed at this time.

When the conference call is complete, the Desk conducts any agreed-upon open market operations. The Desk initiates this process by announcing the OMO through an electronic auction system called FedTrade, inviting dealers to submit bids or offers as appropriate.


Source: http://www.newyorkfed.org/aboutthefed/f ... fed32.html
In other words, the Fed, the Treasury and the Primary Dealers are all in on the game together. They don't do anything until they all know what the game plan is. If the reserves don't exist, the Treasury just delays the auction until they do exist.

How is pointing out this kind of economic reality an exercise in mythology? That seems like an irrational response (and, again, I'm being as nice and polite as I can possibly be here).
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Re: Not Even Harry Browne Thought It Was Going To Be This Bad

Post by MediumTex »

I wish that there was a button for "sit down and have a beer with those you disagree with and talk about something you do agree about like sports teams you both follow", but I don't think that this forum software supports a function like that.

My goal is for this to be a forum that raises no one's blood pressure.  Please help me achieve that.

Thanks.
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Re: Not Even Harry Browne Thought It Was Going To Be This Bad

Post by Gumby »

MediumTex wrote:My goal is for this to be a forum that raises no one's blood pressure.  Please help me achieve that.
Just curious, but how would I go about doing that if Tech is unwilling to listen to anything that differs from his view of the world? This doesn't seem to be just about politeness or decorum, as best as I can tell.
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Re: Not Even Harry Browne Thought It Was Going To Be This Bad

Post by Mdraf »

First time poster here. I've followed this discussion with great interest and I must say I'm with techno. The complicated explanations of how MR works and how if you don't understand it you are a neanderthal sounds a little like those who were selling credit default swaps and the like.  In answer to the question about "why is there no inflation after 5 years"... surely you've been to the grocery store, filled your car with gas and paid utility bills. What the Fed sets as the rate is artificial and only intended to keep the CPI down for government deficit purposes.  I look forward to the onslaught ! Bring it on :)
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Re: Not Even Harry Browne Thought It Was Going To Be This Bad

Post by moda0306 »

Maybe the question isn't whether their descriptions of the operations are correct, but whether there is a fundamental difference between the assets being swapped, or a fundamental difference between how society or banks will use those different assets, or whether there is something about these asset swaps that somehow bring on some kind of "aha" moment amongst citizens or holders of the dollar that will make its value very fragile.

I don't think Austrians disagree that a QE is a swap of assets, but what they probably disagree with is what those assets fundamentally represent.  An Austrian would assert that a treasury bond is a claim in an already existing dollar that will eventually need o get paid back.  MRists would probably see that bond as a confetti claim on confetti, and that the market has already become comfortable with the idea that these are not fundamentally all that different (govt issued fiat assets), and that our tax system and other factors play a role in giving those pieces of paper value, no matter what form they take, because they're really quite interchangeable as we see how the game is played.
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Re: Not Even Harry Browne Thought It Was Going To Be This Bad

Post by Gumby »

moda0306 wrote: Maybe the question isn't whether their descriptions of the operations are correct, but whether there is a fundamental difference between the assets being swapped, or a fundamental difference between how society or banks will use those different assets, or whether there is something about these asset swaps that somehow bring on some kind of "aha" moment amongst citizens or holders of the dollar that will make its value very fragile.

I don't think Austrians disagree that a QE is a swap of assets, but what they probably disagree with is what those assets fundamentally represent.  An Austrian would assert that a treasury bond is a claim in an already existing dollar that will eventually need o get paid back.  MRists would probably see that bond as a confetti claim on confetti, and that the market has already become comfortable with the idea that these are not fundamentally all that different (govt issued fiat assets), and that our tax system and other factors play a role in giving those pieces of paper value, no matter what form they take, because they're really quite interchangeable as we see how the game is played.
Well, those are perfectly fine disagreements. But, I didn't hear anything articulated like that. All I heard was that the Fed is causing rampant inflation and the dollar is doomed.
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Re: Not Even Harry Browne Thought It Was Going To Be This Bad

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Mdraf wrote:The complicated explanations of how MR works and how if you don't understand it you are a neanderthal sounds a little like those who were selling credit default swaps and the like.
I still haven't figured out where I ever implied that. If I ever said that I'm sorry, but I really don't think I ever implied that. This stuff is extremely complex. It took me months to figure this stuff out. In no way should anyone ever be made to feel inferior for not understanding MR.
Mdraf wrote:In answer to the question about "why is there no inflation after 5 years"... surely you've been to the grocery store, filled your car with gas and paid utility bills. What the Fed sets as the rate is artificial and only intended to keep the CPI down for government deficit purposes.  I look forward to the onslaught ! Bring it on :)
Hi Mdraf!

I agree that there are pockets of inflation, but overall inflation is not as bad as some people would have you believe.

A little golden nugget of inflationary irony about Shadow Stats — the service has been predicting hyperinflation since 2005 and often shows statistical evidence that high inflation is all around us:
On a slightly different note, I always find it interesting how those pushing the hyperinflation theme love to collect U.S. Dollars. For instance, if you visit Shadow Stats you can buy a subscription to their services for a fee – in U.S. Dollars. Now, a hyperinflationist would argue that they are using those dollars to buy hard commodities so that’s a valid point, but the problem is that there are no signs of hyperinflation in the Shadow Stats subscription service. In fact, in real terms, the subscriptions are deflating! If one goes back and reviews the cost of the service it has remained remarkably stable in price:

[align=center]Image[/align]
[align=center](Figure 1 from July 16th, 2006)[/align]


[align=center]Image[/align]
[align=center](Figure 2 from May 12th, 2008)[/align]


[align=center]Image[/align]
[align=center](Figure 3, from August 28, 2011)[/align]


According to the US government inflation should have caused those subscriptions to surge to $197 in 2011. But your Shadow Stats subscription has actually gone down in price since 2006 because inflation has risen a total of 13%+ according to the CPI. Of course I am cherry picking here and I am not showing the data in terms of gold or what could be viewed as a general decline in our standard of living. In fact, I think one could make a good case for the idea that our standard of living has declined since 2006 (not the case since 1913 when the Fed was founded or since 1971 when we went off the gold standard, but that’s a different matter). But you can see the irony regardless.

Source: Why Is There Deflation in Hyperinflation Forecasts?
For what it's worth it's now 2013 and the subscription rates are still the same. You'd think the prices would have risen if inflation was as bad as they want you to believe it is.

Even though it's completely unscientific, it still made me chuckle.  :)
Last edited by Gumby on Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Not Even Harry Browne Thought It Was Going To Be This Bad

Post by Libertarian666 »

Wonk wrote: I have to admit I just skimmed the last few pages of this thread, but the "dollar crash" scenarios don't appear to be very realistic.  Let's say the world loses faith in the USD and the beginnings of an epic crash are imminent.  Instead of TEOTWAWKI, wouldn't a more likely scenario be a national bank holiday followed by another gold standard?  An overnight devaluation is relatively painless and instantly resets the system.

Say a crisis erupted tonight.  By Monday morning, the U.S. could re-peg the USD to gold at the Bretton Woods M1 level(40%) of $3800/oz in order to restore international confidence.  No zombies, no bunkers, no canned food.  Do we really think that's an unrealistic scenario given the alternatives? 

To be clear, I'm not saying this will happen--only that in such a crisis, this option appears to be the path of least resistance.
That is a possible scenario; in fact, I consider it much more likely than some of the "end of the world" ones.

Of course, those holding gold not subject to confiscation would do pretty well in such a situation.
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Re: Not Even Harry Browne Thought It Was Going To Be This Bad

Post by moda0306 »

Mdraf wrote: First time poster here. I've followed this discussion with great interest and I must say I'm with techno. The complicated explanations of how MR works and how if you don't understand it you are a neanderthal sounds a little like those who were selling credit default swaps and the like.  In answer to the question about "why is there no inflation after 5 years"... surely you've been to the grocery store, filled your car with gas and paid utility bills. What the Fed sets as the rate is artificial and only intended to keep the CPI down for government deficit purposes.  I look forward to the onslaught ! Bring it on :)
Fed/treasury/MB operations are complex, but there are a few relatively simple principals that make modern fiat currencies work (or eventually fail).  Those include:

- nature of taxation as a currency value creation mechanism
- nature of a sovereign fiat currency issuer also issuing bonds is an interest rate floor setting mechanism
- nature of interest rates in a fiat economy to be very low naturally during a demand-side recession, where we have little will to invest and therefore not taking on new debt in the private sector.
- nature of a true commodity based currency as a possible artificial constraint.

Nobody's calling anyone a Neanderthal.  Saying that there are some deep emotional/moral underpinnings to Austrianism and our opinions in general, and that those are inherantly hard for ANYONE to break, is not being insulting.  In my opinion. I really hope I can "undo" how that comment was interpreted.

The fed doesn't set what CPI is. The fed uses a calculation called "core inflation" that doesn't include food or fuel because they're too volatile to base policy on. CPI includes food/fuel, and independent measures of inflation such as the MIT billion price project are right in line with CPI.

It took me a while to learn all this and I've had to repeat it before so please be patient if I'm a little short with my statements.  I'm not trying to be a dick :). You have no idea how many Austrian vs MMT/MR debates we've had on here.
Last edited by moda0306 on Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Not Even Harry Browne Thought It Was Going To Be This Bad

Post by Mdraf »

Gumby wrote: but overall inflation is not as bad as some people would have you believe.
I don't believe in Shadowstats nor the CPI. I believe my wallet.  At the same time I don't believe the dollar "will collapse" simply because there is no alternative in the world now that the Euro has been shown to be the emperor with no clothes.
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