Daily Prayers

[doodle]

MT,

To me, the idea that someone would walk away from such fame, wealth and adoration based upon personal integrity is amazing.

I think once someone reaches a state of enlightenment, it would be harder not to walk away.

I don't proclaim to have reached any state of enlightenment yet (other than an intellectual glimpse of what it might look like), but over the last 5 years of gradually shedding material objects and searching for the "essence" of life, I think I am closer to the truth than before. As I move forward in this direction things such as fame and adoration mean less and less, and an overwhelming sense of humility begins to take over your life.

[doodle]

Preconceived notions and cultural traditions make this simple message very hard for many to comprehend.

Yes, the message is so utterly simple that a five year old can understand it. In fact, I think most children see things in this way before they are corrupted by the world surrounds them. A child I think sees "oneness" innately. Those who reach enlightenment almost are just returning to where they came from.

[Xan]

Of course Jesus is God. In fact, all of us are God...he is omnipresent after all. We are all part of the same (this is a scientific fact!) The notion of division between man and God, or between anything else in the universe is an illusion. We are all just droplets of water or waves in the same ocean. Using this analogy, God would be the ocean itself.

You're mixing up the creation with the Creator.  Jesus is the ONLY-begotten Son of God, God of God, light of light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

[doodle]

Xan,

You're mixing up the creation with the Creator.  Jesus is the ONLY-begotten Son of God, God of God, light of light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

I'm not mixing them up at all. I'm saying that they can't be separated to begin with. If God is omnipresent then he is everywhere and in everything. This being the case, you and I are in God and God is in us...we come from "God" and to "God" we will all eventually return....ashes to ashes...dust to dust. I think envisioning "God" as separate from the universe is to draw an illusory delineation where there is none. We are like water molecules in a sea of "God".

This is a very dangerous idea to those in power, which is why the major institutions of religion seek to repress this idea by drawing these delineations. It is because of this that our cultural manifestations of religion through the church, mosque, temple etc. don't focus on this idea and instead attempt to convince you that it is only through them that you can reach the kingdom of heaven. Just like any middleman, they are afraid of getting cut out of the transaction.

[MediumTex]

Xan,

You're mixing up the creation with the Creator.  Jesus is the ONLY-begotten Son of God, God of God, light of light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

I'm not mixing them up at all. I'm saying that they can't be separated to begin with. If God is omnipresent then he is everywhere and in everything. This being the case, you and I are in God and God is in us...we come from "God" and to "God" we will all eventually return....ashes to ashes...dust to dust. I think envisioning "God" as separate from the universe is to draw an illusory delineation where there is none. We are like water molecules in a sea of "God".

This is a very dangerous idea to those in power, which is why the major institutions of religion seek to repress this idea by drawing these delineations.

How does that idea square with the notion of God as "first cause", in which case God would be like a scientist watching his experiment unfold, in which case God would definitely NOT be part of every aspect of creation, other than as the catalyst?

Do you agree that there was some "first cause" at some point a LONG time ago?

[MediumTex]

You're mixing up the creation with the Creator.  Jesus is the ONLY-begotten Son of God, God of God, light of light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

What is your source of this information?

Is it something that another human wrote down based upon what he either saw, heard or "felt"?

If that was the source, is it reliable?  How do you know?

A story can make us feel better without being confirmable, but such stories can go from being understood as allegories and fables to being viewed as factual when there is simply no basis whatsoever for treating them as fact.

[doodle]

Psalms 82:6

I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'

[doodle]

Here is another one from the Gospel of Thomas:

"I am the light above everything. I am everything. Everything came forth from me, and everything reached me."

"Split wood, I am there. Lift up a rock, you will find me there."

This sounds to me like Jesus is saying that God isn't watching his creation from afar....rather He is part of it, and it is part of Him.

Ultimately, I don't think that the answer to any of these questions is going to be found in one religious text or another. I am merely making the argument that those people who have reached enlightenment in the past, and those that reach enlightenment today all seem to have a similar message relating to the "oneness" of everything.

What is even more interesting is how scientific observation also reveals the interconnectedness of all things as well. As I said before, duality is an illusion. This is a certifiable scientific fact. When you eat an apple what happens? The apple becomes part of you. When you die, your remains become part of future apples.

Science today argues that all matter in the Universe emanated from a singular explosion. Just as humans emanate from a single cell. The parallels between the large and the small are evident everywhere. In the Hindu religion they believe the entire universe was visible in Krishnas mouth....again, we are part of the universe, the universe is part of us.

[MediumTex]

Here is another one from the Gospel of Thomas:

"I am the light above everything. I am everything. Everything came forth from me, and everything reached me."

"Split wood, I am there. Lift up a rock, you will find me there."

This sounds to me like Jesus is saying that God isn't watching his creation from afar....rather He is part of it, and it is part of Him.

Ultimately, I don't think that the answer to any of these questions is going to be found in one religious text or another. I am merely making the argument that those people who have reached enlightenment in the past, and those that reach enlightenment today all seem to have a similar message relating to the "oneness" of everything.

What is even more interesting is how scientific observation also reveals the interconnectedness of all things as well. As I said before, duality is an illusion. This is a certifiable scientific fact. When you eat an apple what happens? The apple becomes part of you. When you die, your remains become part of future apples.

Science today argues that all matter in the Universe emanated from a singular explosion. Just as humans emanate from a single cell. The parallels between the large and the small are evident everywhere. In the Hindu religion they believe the entire universe was visible in Krishnas mouth....again, we are part of the universe, the universe is part of us.

You are right, of course.  The problem is getting this simple message through the bureaucratic tangle of modern religious thought.

If you read the words of Jesus he had the same complaint about the religious authorities of his time.

[doodle]

MT,

If you read the words of Jesus he had the same complaint about the religious authorities of his time.

Yes, the authorities were terrified of Jesus....and as everyone knows, eventually succeded in killing him.

John 10:31-39

31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" 33 "We are not stoning you for any good work," they replied, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." 34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are "gods" ' [d]? 35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

Again in John 17:21 Jesus is talking about "oneness"

"that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me."

[Gosso]

I was swayed by the Christian Church message for about two months while reading through the "Christian" Books by C.S. Lewis...he had me hooked for awhile, although I was pretty new to this stuff.  But then I came to the realization that the Bible is not the word of God, but rather a series of stories and myths written by human beings.  I tried to justify this by thinking that God had possessed the minds of these writers or gave them visions, and was then still the word of God.  But one thing that Lewis made very clear was that human beings must always have free will -- so in this case they have free will to write and/or change whatever they want in the Bible.  Also if God could have possessed the minds of these writers then couldn't the Devil just as easily do the same thing?  At that point everything started to unravel.

I then started to read about the history of how the New Testament was put together, and was again extremely disheartened by the whole process.

It's kinda embarrassing to think that I even held these beliefs for a short while, but at least I snapped out of it.  Although I can see why people find it comforting.  But don't get me wrong, there is plenty to love about the teachings of Jesus, as long as you understand them properly.

If there is a Grandfather type figure watching over us then he has one sick sense of humour, case and point:

The world's largest Christian TV channel, the California-based Trinity Broadcasting Network, has become embroiled in a multimillion-dollar financial scandal after members of the family that founded it alleged widespread embezzlement.

The claims – by Brittany Koper, whose grandfather Paul Crouch founded TBN, and by Joseph McVeigh, another family member – describe exorbitant spending on mansions in California, Tennessee and Florida, private jets and even a $100,000 (£63,000) mobile home to house the dogs of Crouch's flamboyant wife, Janice.
...
According to the lawsuit, reported in US newspapers, Paul Crouch Sr obtained a $50m luxury jet for his personal use through a "sham loan", while church funds – many of which come from donations during events like its "Praise-a-thons" – paid for the dogs' mobile home.

You will know them by their fruit.

[MediumTex]

You will know them by their fruit.

...or by the palaces of their pets.

The way these TV evangelists view their followers reminds me of the way Goldman Sachs views its clients.

[Gosso]

You will know them by their fruit.

...or by the palaces of their pets.

The way these TV evangelists view their followers reminds me of the way Goldman Sachs views its clients.

I'd bet Jesus would be flipping a few tables over.

Another thing that helped me see the light was the question, "Is Gandhi in Hell?"  And for that matter every single person that believes in a religion other than Fundamentalist Christianity?  If the answer is 'yes', then what kind of God do we have?  You would think He would have tried a little harder to make everyone in the world realize how important it is to believe that a man/God from 2000 years ago was the Son of God.  Just seems sloppy to me.

[MediumTex]

You will know them by their fruit.

...or by the palaces of their pets.

The way these TV evangelists view their followers reminds me of the way Goldman Sachs views its clients.

I'd bet Jesus would be flipping a few tables over.

Another thing that helped me see the light was the question, "Is Gandhi in Hell?"  And for that matter every single person that believes in a religion other than Fundamentalist Christianity?  If the answer is 'yes', then what kind of God do we have?  You would think He would have tried a little harder to make everyone in the world realize how important it is to believe that a man/God from 2000 years ago was the Son of God.  Just seems sloppy to me.

Is Adolf Hitler in Heaven and Anne Frank in Hell?  That is what a fundamentalist interpretation of Christianity gets you.

That can't be right.

There is a tendency in these matters to get caught up in forms as opposed to substance.  I would much prefer to simply review the teachings of Jesus and ask myself whether they have the ring of truth, and whether living in the way he described is likely to get one closer to God or whatever higher truth there is that we can experience.

One of the themes that ran through all of Jesus's teachings was a sense of kindness toward others.  I would like to see a lot more of that in the world.  Kindness is, to me, a gateway to many other truths.

To me, one of the most bizarre misunderstandings/miscommunications in many strains of fundamentalist Christianity is the belief that all Jews are going to Hell (apart from the small number of Messianic Jews) because they do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah.  This way of thinking would have us believe that God selected the Jews as his chosen people thousands of years ago (it's not clear whether Adam and Eve were supposed to be Jewish), protected them from countless political foes in the Old Testament, rescued them from their own incompetence and lack of faith more than once, and then when he sent his son to earth he would arrange things to that the actions of a handful of Jewish church leaders who were threatened by Jesus's message would cause the last 2,000 years of Jews to be able to study and observe their religion faithfully their whole lives, only to be punished for eternity when they died, while millions of other people who aren't Jewish accept a certain interpretation of Jesus's ministry and that gets them into a Heaven that they were previously not allowed to enter (I am assuming that Heaven was only for Jews before Jesus came along, though the Old Testament really doesn't talk much about Heaven or Hell for anyone).  That's too much to ask anyone to believe.  Even if it was true, what would that say about the nature of God to do something so cruel to what are supposed to be his chosen people?

If God made us, he made us the way we are for a reason.  He gave us reason and rationality, and I think that one purpose of these endowments is to be able to say something doesn't make any sense when it doesn't make any sense.

I don't think there is anything blasphemous about pointing out things that don't make any sense.  It could be that somewhere along the way a few people just made mistakes in the way they recorded or described things, and it set in motion a chain reaction of misunderstandings that placed some bad code into an otherwise pretty good system of ethics, morality and philosophy.  

[Gosso]

Is Adolf Hitler in Heaven and Anne Frank in Hell?  That is what a fundamentalist interpretation of Christianity gets you.

That can't be right.

There is a tendency in these matters to get caught up in forms as opposed to substance.  I would much prefer to simply review the teachings of Jesus and ask myself whether they have the ring of truth, and whether living in the way he described is likely to get one closer to God or whatever higher truth there is that we can experience.

One of the themes that ran through all of Jesus's teachings was a sense of kindness toward others.  I would like to see a lot more of that in the world.  Kindness is, to me, a gateway to many other truths.

To me, one of the most bizarre misunderstandings/miscommunications in many strains of fundamentalist Christianity is the belief that all Jews are going to Hell (apart from the small number of Messianic Jews) because they do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah.  This way of thinking would have us believe that God selected the Jews as his chosen people thousands of years ago (it's not clear whether Adam and Eve were supposed to be Jewish), protected them from countless political foes in the Old Testament, rescued them from their own incompetence and lack of faith more than once, and then when he sent his son to earth he would arrange things to that the actions of a handful of Jewish church leaders who were threatened by Jesus's message would cause the last 2,000 years of Jews to be able to study and observe their religion faithfully their whole lives, only to be punished for eternity when they died, while millions of other people who aren't Jewish accept a certain interpretation of Jesus's ministry and that gets them into a Heaven that they were previously not allowed to enter (I am assuming that Heaven was only for Jews before Jesus came along, though the Old Testament really doesn't talk much about Heaven or Hell for anyone).  That's too much to ask anyone to believe.  Even if it was true, what would that say about the nature of God to do something so cruel to what are supposed to be his chosen people?

If God made us, he made us the way we are for a reason.  He gave us reason and rationality, and I think that one purpose of these endowments is to be able to say something doesn't make any sense when it doesn't make any sense.

I don't think there is anything blasphemous about pointing out things that don't make any sense.  It could be that somewhere along the way a few people just made mistakes in the way they recorded or described things, and it set in motion a chain reaction of misunderstandings that placed some bad code into an otherwise pretty good system of ethics, morality and philosophy.  

So the solution to this is to turn off the rationality and turn on the faith.  Once someone goes down the faith path then all bets are off...the Church now has control over their belief system.  It has now become a form of mind-control, which will allow the leaders/priests to more easily control the masses.  I'm not sure if this is what Jesus had in mind. 

This sounds more like what a Roman Emperor would want.  And it just so happens that Christianity only became socially acceptable once Constantine converted to Christianity in 313 and made it legal in Rome.  And then of course nearly all of Rome converted to the new religion that the emperor had adopted.  Without this event Christianity would have likely remained a cult and its followers would have continued to be tortured, murdered and sent into the arena with gladiators.

Here is another good Wikipedia article on the Constantinian Shift:

Critics point to this shift as the beginning of the phenomenon known as Caesaropapism. In its extreme form, such critics say, Christianity became a religious justification for the exercise of power and a tool in the expansion and maintenance of empire, a Christian empire, also known as Christendom.

IMO this means we need to focus on the actual words of Jesus, and not on how it is interpreted by the Church or people looking for power.

[MediumTex]

IMO this means we need to focus on the actual words of Jesus, and not on how it is interpreted by the Church or people looking for power.

This is the conclusion I have come to as well.

[lazyboy]

10. His Claim To Be God

While it seems Jesus didn't make a point of telling everyone that he was God, he did make it clear on a few recorded occasions. This quote is taken from Jesus' court trial, from which the resulting conviction of 'blasphemy' led to his crucifixion.

I include this quote, not because it's a great teaching, but because it affects how one perceives his teaching. It's hard to think of Jesus as [just] a good moral teacher when you know that he thought himself to be God. Either he is a weirdo, or he is God!

Then the high priest said to him, “I demand in the name of the living God—tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”?
Jesus replied, “You have said it. And in the future you will see the Son of Man seated in the place of power at God’s right hand and coming on the clouds of heaven.”? (Matthew 26:63-64)

Of course Jesus is God. In fact, all of us are God...he is omnipresent after all. We are all part of the same (this is a scientific fact!) The notion of division between man and God, or between anything else in the universe is an illusion. We are all just droplets of water or waves in the same ocean. Using this analogy, God would be the ocean itself.

I like that analogy of drops and the ocean. I also like this one:

"Each drops wants to merge into the ocean just like the rivers that run to the sea.
Consider that it's, also, the ocean that wants to merge with the drops"