Religion Of Peace At It Again

[Libertarian666]

Quick correction of the usual revisionist history.  In 1948, Palestinians living in Israel were forced out of their homes en masse, and had the choice of packing into camps or fleeing the country.  Some villages were flat out destroyed.  Other homes were simply taken over by arriving Jews who still live in them today and consider themselves as the owners.  For example, my mother's uncle chose to flee to Guatemala.  He & family (wife & 3 children) lost nearly everything they owned including their bank savings (which were also claimed by the Israeli state).  His home in Jerusalem was claimed by Jewish settlers and is still there.

Fast forward 60+ years.  The camps are still there.  I'd say the violence is not hard to understand.  Doesn't make it right - just understandable.

This is true, but leaves out a couple of key facts, like the one where the Palestinian political leadership rejected the UN partition plan and called on surrounding Arab nations to invade and kick out the Jews to prevent the establishment of any type of Jewish-controlled state in the area. The Arab nations answered the call and began a war to determine the owner of the disputed territory militarily. And for a variety of unexpected reasons, the Jews won, and founded a new country. I'll also note that those same Arab nations have consistently denied the fleeing Palestinian refugees citizenship, full participation in their societies, etc. It's quite a dick move: heed their call by trying for a land grab, then when it fails, piss all over the refugees your war created. Jordan, the one country that actually succeeded at gaining territory in that war, took the West Bank for itself instead of handing it over the the Palestinians. Later they handed it over to the Israelis instead of, again, giving it to the Palestinians.

Obviously this is all quite unfair for the Palestinian civilians who had no input into the political process and maybe accepted the partition plan, but this is just the kind of sucky thing that happens to people living in disputed territory in violent parts of the world, sadly. Had the Arab nations won, it could be Jews living in ghettoes around the state of Palestine.

The "National Museum of American Jewish History" in Philadelphia has a lot of very interesting information about the establishment of Israel, including the tidbit that the day the modern state of Israel was established, it was attacked by apparently overwhelming force from 7 Arab countries. The rest is history:

[MachineGhost]

But that's what I wrote earlier. And, I also said that I can understand why that doesn't mean much to the Palestinians. But it does contribute to making the simple statement that the Jews stole Palestine far from true.

I'm a little worried there's a double standard here.  It's pretty much the common law that finder's keepers when it comes to land use and ownership, especially in absence of legal infrastructure.  So don't Palestinians have a vested interest that the U.N. and Israeli's stole from them without just compensation?

[dualstow]

The "National Museum of American Jewish History" in Philadelphia has a lot of very interesting information about the establishment of Israel, including the tidbit that the day the modern state of Israel was established, it was attacked by apparently overwhelming force from 7 Arab countries. The rest is history:

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Not+so ... 244647.jpg

That museum isn't as popular as it could be - too much reading.  I'm only half kidding. I wish they'd made it more interactive, like the brilliant Constitution Center.

---
Well, I've been reading about the Palestinian who dressed as a journalist, complete with PRESS t-shirt, and stabbed an Israeli soldier. I'm sure the Foreign Press Agency is grateful for that. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 27,00.html

This, plus using ambulances to convey terrorists freedom fighters looks clever in the short run. Not so much in the long run, like when ambulances have to get through checkpoints.

MG: I don't even know how to untangle that question.

[MachineGhost]

Hey, I'm still waiting for Roger Waters to wage his BDS war on Japan until the Ainu are back in full control.

I have no idea what you're talking about.  Link?

[dualstow]

Hey, I'm still waiting for Roger Waters to wage his BDS war on Japan until the Ainu are back in full control.

I have no idea what you're talking about.  Link?

Here he is harassing my avatar - http://www.algemeiner.com/2015/02/22/al ... rael-riff/#
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycott,_ ... _Sanctions

[Pointedstick]

I'm a little worried there's a double standard here.  It's pretty much the common law that finder's keepers when it comes to land use and ownership, especially in absence of legal infrastructure.  So don't Palestinians have a vested interest that the U.N. and Israeli's stole from them without just compensation?

There was legal infrastructure: At the time the U.N. got involved, the land was owned by the British (feverishly trying to hand the matter off to the nascent international authorities), having taken it over from the Ottoman Empire.

The Palestinian argument against the U.N. Partition plan was that there shouldn't have been any Jews there in the first place, so a plan that gave them any land at all was essentially legitimizing land-theft-via-immigration. And there's truth to this. However, this was weighted against the fact that there were a bunch of Jews in the region who had been promised land by its lawful state owner. Perhaps morally they should not have been there, but lawfully Great Britain had every right to allow them to enter and settle. I suspect sympathy for the Jews in the wake of the Holocaust played a role as well. Why not just give these guys a tiny bit of land?

Thus, a compromise was forged. Nobody liked the compromise, but the Jewish political leaders accepted it and the Palestinian political leaders didn't, instead inciting violence and inviting the militaries of established powers. In so doing, they agreed to roll the geopolitical dice. If you start a war to try to get more than you could from diplomacy, you have to live with the result if you get off worse than if you'd accepted the deal you didn't like.

But really, if there's a single simple statement that hopefully all sides can agree to, it isn't, "Jews stole their land," It's "The British cocked everything up big time."

[dualstow]

I know this is an awfully tough question, PS, but how would you resolve this whole situation? Let's say you're the PM of Israel. What, if any, sweeping changes would you make? One specific question: that unpopular wall that seems to have done its job relegating bomb attacks to mere knife attacks - keep it or scrap it?

[Pointedstick]

I know this is an awfully tough question, PS, but how would you resolve this whole situation? Let's say you're the PM of Israel. What, if any, sweeping changes would you make? One specific question: that unpopular wall that seems to have done its job relegating bomb attacks to mere knife attacks - keep it or scrap it?

Really tough question. What I would do is put the ball in the Palestinians' court by immediately ending the embargo and announcing full support for statehood for both territories. I would push for two different countries--Gaza and West Bank (or whatever they wanted to call them) based on the current de facto borders of the wall. With their own countries, Palestinians would no longer look like underdogs fighting against a big meanie. They would be fully in control of their destinies. It would also put the Palestinians in the awkward position of arguing against statehood if they didn't like the terms of the deal (e.g. that settlements had eroded the borders of the West Bank in the past). Since the entire rest of the world supports statehood, it would be awfully weird if the only ones who didn't want it were the Palestinians themselves. I suspect they would cave and accept the deal.

Once they had their own states, I would fully normalize relations, diplomatic status, and economic ties. Treat them like any other country. If state-supported Palestinian terrorists kill Israelis, that's an act of war and can be treated as such on the world stage, including getting U.N. approval for retaliation. If non-state-supported Palestinian terrorists kill Israelis, that's a diplomatic incident for the relevant Palestinian government to resolve or else they get some of their economic privileges taken away.

Once things calm down and life in the Palestinian states becomes peaceful and normal, the wall can come down.

[MachineGhost]

Once things calm down and life in the Palestinian states becomes peaceful and normal, the wall can come down.

PS for Prime Minister!

[Pointedstick]

Whew.  I do like your proposed solutions, PS.  But I don't think the Palestinians really want that sort of solution.  They really want dead Israelis, the more the better.

Well my plan would be a great way to find out, no? And if we discover that you're right, they'll have a heck of a lot less legitimacy and garner less international sympathy as domestic terrorist groups operating in an independent nation state that they can leave at any time then they currently do wearing the mantle of oppressed freedom fighters penned in by a hostile occupier.

[Pointedstick]

I'm also not sure what to think of WiseOne's use of the term "concentration camps."  Perhaps I'm just uneducated, but that doesn't sound accurate.

The hyperbolic term that I can accept most is "open-air prison."

[WiseOne]

Definitely the British deserve a lot of the blame.

One thing everyone forgets is that the UN's land division proposal put most of the water sources on the Jewish side.  The Palestinians couldn't possibly have accepted that situation.

As far as the "concentration camp" term, I think that describes Gaza very well.  "Internment camp" will do in a pinch.  If you get a chance to go there and see for yourself, do so.  My sister managed to do that by finding a Palestinian taxi driver in Jerusalem who was willing take her through the checkpoints.  That was quite a while ago though, not sure it would work now.

Also - I wasn't trying to describe the entire political landscape, just the untold story of how events unfolded from the point of view of the people who were displaced.  There will never be any shortage of arguments defending Israel's actions as history always favors the victors, but until the true events are acknowledged I don't see that anything is going to get solved.

[dualstow]

I like your ideas, PM!- er, PS.  And definitely they would need good water access. Per WiseOne's post, rejecting an unfair deal is not really a rejection.

Still, I'm thinking about the Oslo Accords in the 90s. A lot of people were hopeful back then. 

[dualstow]

The Israelis would also be winners from that deal. Better security / less terrorism, and as long as they leave the Palestinian state alone, it would be harder for the Irish or the Norwegians, or hell, the rest of the world, to demonize them as sadists who do what they do out of bloodlust.

[dualstow]

There will never be any shortage of arguments defending Israel's actions as history always favors the victors

Certainly true, but in this crazy world, Hamas writes their own version of current events and a lot of people believe it. I don't know whether or not history will concur, but one example is children carrying AK-47's from dead Palestinian fighters to live ones. These fighters were being picked off by Israeli snipers, and eventually the snipers were told to halt because a miscalculation could have resulted in a dead kid. At least, that was the Israeli version.

The Palestinian version was to show the dead fighters who of course no longer had their AK's, on television, and to announce that the IDF had "killed unarmed Palestinians."

[dualstow]

In an October 9 Friday sermon delivered at the Al-Abrar Mosque in Rafah, the Gaza Strip, Sheikh Muhammad Sallah "Abu Rajab" brandished a knife, calling upon his brothers in the West Bank: "Stab!" "Oh young men of the West Bank: Attack in threes and fours," he said, and "cut them into body parts."

Following are excerpts...

http://www.memri.org/clip_transcript/en/5098.htm

[Reub]

And so goes the religion of peace. Isn't it interesting how they can find excuses all over the world for killing innocent women and children and destroying sacred holy sites?

[dualstow]

UNRWA youth ambassador cheers Palestinian shooting & stabbing attacks on Israelis

UNRWA youth ambassador Mohammed Assaf — one of ten UNRWA figures identified as online inciters in this new UN Watch report — has just released a new music video encouraging the ongoing epidemic of Palestinian rioting, stabbing and shooting attacks against Israelis

http://www.unwatch.org/video-by-unrwa-y ... -israelis/

[Mountaineer]

UNRWA youth ambassador cheers Palestinian shooting & stabbing attacks on Israelis

UNRWA youth ambassador Mohammed Assaf — one of ten UNRWA figures identified as online inciters in this new UN Watch report — has just released a new music video encouraging the ongoing epidemic of Palestinian rioting, stabbing and shooting attacks against Israelis

http://www.unwatch.org/video-by-unrwa-y ... -israelis/

This is a sidetrack comment, but this story is an example of how foolish "gun control" proponents are.  If one does not have a pistol, revolver, rifle, or military "style" weapon, one just uses the tool that is available to do another person harm - in this case a knife or a mass riot.  Once again, it is not the tool that is the problem - it is the person using it for ill purposes.

... M

[dualstow]

This is a sidetrack comment, but this story is an example of how foolish "gun control" proponents are.  If one does not have a pistol, revolver, rifle, or military "style" weapon, one just uses the tool that is available to do another person harm - in this case a knife or a mass riot.  Once again, it is not the tool that is the problem - it is the person using it for ill purposes.

This is for you, M:

More Israelis Buy Arms as Attacks Mount
Wave of stabbings by Palestinians prompts calls for citizens to defend themselves

“Everybody is afraid,” said Mr. Mizrahi, as he sold a customer a Glock 9x19mm pistol for 4,200 shekels ($1,095). “If somebody comes at you with a knife, you don’t want to take a chance about it.”

http://www.wsj.com/articles/more-israel ... 1445216111

I wonder if they're relaxing the restrictions on legally obtaining a firearm this week.

[Mountaineer]

This is a sidetrack comment, but this story is an example of how foolish "gun control" proponents are.  If one does not have a pistol, revolver, rifle, or military "style" weapon, one just uses the tool that is available to do another person harm - in this case a knife or a mass riot.  Once again, it is not the tool that is the problem - it is the person using it for ill purposes.

This is for you, M:

More Israelis Buy Arms as Attacks Mount
Wave of stabbings by Palestinians prompts calls for citizens to defend themselves

“Everybody is afraid,” said Mr. Mizrahi, as he sold a customer a Glock 9x19mm pistol for 4,200 shekels ($1,095). “If somebody comes at you with a knife, you don’t want to take a chance about it.”

http://www.wsj.com/articles/more-israel ... 1445216111

I wonder if they're relaxing the restrictions on legally obtaining a firearm this week.

That is quite pricy for that item.  I smell a tool-running opportunity. 

Shalom awaits.

... M

[dualstow]

Israeli Restaurant offers 50% discount to Jews & Arabs who dine together
Sweet! 
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israe ... er-n447616

[dualstow]

I think this thread fizzled out because Islamist attacks have been overshadowed by quite a few white nationalist attacks. Anyone else notice that? Lots of homegrown terrorism and old fashioned “going postal.”

[stuper1]

Hypocrisy is hypocrisy. If we see some white dude killing brown and black people and claiming that God is pleased with him for it, I presume we will condemn him as much as if it's an Islamist killing infidels. I can't remember a whole lot of the former happening.

I'm pretty much with Tucker Carlson on this one. I imagine that all the white nationalists in this country would fit into a small stadium. There are probably as many FBI agents posing as white nationalists to infiltrate their groups as there are actual white nationalists.

If I'm a nationalist and I happen to be white, does that make me a white nationalist? I bet the New York Times wouldn't think twice about portraying me as such. Be careful what you believe from the mass media. Now that the Russian collusion hoax is dying off, the latest mania seems to be the white nationalism scare. In truth, the USA is probably one of the least racist countries on earth. If that's not true, then how come so many people of color are trying to come here?

[dualstow]

oh, it’s definitely got nothing to do with religion.

No, you’re not a white nationalist.