Figuring Out Religion

[Austen Heller]

Ho Lee Cow! 261 pages, I haven't been following along, but have you guys figured out religion yet?  Is there an executive summary?

[jafs]

This is a vast over-simplification, but may be useful.

Believers feel that their belief system is true, fact based and internally consistent.  Agnostics and atheists find religious belief to be inconsistent and not based on facts or true.

To be fair, agnostics just aren't sure about the whole thing, while atheists are more sure there's no deity.

[Mountaineer]

Is it rational to believe in God?  Does atheism require more faith than to believe in God?

Watch this 5 minute video by a Boston University philosopher and see what you think.   

https://www.prageru.com/courses/religio ... e-rational

... M

[Fred]

Fred, I feel your pain but do not understand it.  You seem really anchored in the God of wrath. 

Geesh. Sounds like the argument I had with my wife last week. We went to a big birthday party where they brought in a priest and turned it into a quasi-religious ceremony and in my opinion that was a very rude thing to do. I think it was the first time I ever didn't at least respectfully bow my head during the prayers and it was very interesting to look around at how many others were just smiling and looking at each other as though to say I don't believe in this nonsense either. Afterward, she kept telling me I was just angry with God and I kept telling her there is no way I can be angry with someone I don't believe exists. Finally I did get angry and told her I didn't want to discuss religion with her any more. Religious people just don't get it. In their minds, there is no way you can simply not believe in God - there has to be something wrong with you and you are in denial about it, or under the control of Satan.

And I'm not anchored in the God of wrath. That's the Bible you are talking about. I do recommend that every believer read and understand it for themselves and not let the priest/pastor tell you what it says. If everybody did that I think we would have fewer believers.

[jafs]

Fred,

I hope you can find a way for you and your wife to have a good relationship regardless of your differences about religion.  It can be done - actually B. Ehrmann's wife is religious and he's agnostic, and when I saw him speak he said it wasn't really an issue for them, which is great!

His issues with religion were essentially intellectual issues/unanswerable questions, while for her, religion was more of a sense of awe about the universe.

[Maddy]

Heaping firey coals is its own act of wrath.

[MediumTex]

Great article by the President of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod. 

http://blogs.lcms.org/2016/how-shall-we ... -the-bible

<snip>

How shall Christians regard and understand the Bible? The common narratives of Western culture are evaporating, especially knowledge of the Bible. Someone told me recently she was ordering a cake and wanted it decorated with a depiction of Noah’s Ark. The clerk had no idea what she was talking about.

Christians may still have some modicum of familiarity with the Bible, but today, we ought be very clear about what the Bible is and what it teaches so we are not swept away by the cesspool of biblical ignorance (i.e., pop culture, pop religion, pop psychology).

Agnosticism is more popular than ever. It’s the faddish pseudo-religion that asserts in absolute terms (ironically) that we can’t make any absolute assertions about “God” or religion. Behind the masquerade of a religiously uncommitted “high ground” — claiming all religion is the same, etc. — lurks a chasm of ignorance about what the Bible and genuine Christianity teach.

The best place for us to get hold of what the Bible is and how we should understand it is found in the person of Jesus Himself. How does Jesus regard the Bible?

<snip>

... M

That baker should have gone and read the Bible and then made a cake showing an angry God drowning all the men, women, children, and animals in a flood. The look on the Christian's face when he picked it up would have been priceless.

Here is the cake I would have baked:

I would have started with a base of red cake.  Once the red cake was cooked I would bake a bunch of gingerbread man cookies, except I would use icing to give them all full dark beards and thick heads of hair.  I would use chocolate M&Ms to give them beady vacant-looking eyes.

I would arrange the gingerbread men across the top of the red cake and then mix up a batch of jello with a light blue tint and create a jello layer above the red cake that covered up all the gingerbread men.

Once the jello had chilled I would make an ark out of Hershey's chocolate bars and fill it with a bunch of little plastic animals and dinosaurs (the dinosaurs would just be for laughs). 

The ark would sit atop the blue jello and when people looked down into the jello they would see the red cake and all of the empty eyes of the doomed gingerbread men who didn't please God.

I think that would be an awesome cake.

[Fred]

Fred,

I hope you can find a way for you and your wife to have a good relationship regardless of your differences about religion.  It can be done - actually B. Ehrmann's wife is religious and he's agnostic, and when I saw him speak he said it wasn't really an issue for them, which is great!

His issues with religion were essentially intellectual issues/unanswerable questions, while for her, religion was more of a sense of awe about the universe.

Thanks, but we have a good relationship. My wife is mostly a cultural Catholic who doesn't take her religion all that seriously so it's usually not that big of a deal. She does believe a lot of silly stuff though and I usually don't say anything about it. I'm normally a "whatever floats your boat" kind of person until someone starts trying to tell me there's something wrong with me because it doesn't float mine.

[MediumTex]

Fred, I feel your pain but do not understand it.  You seem really anchored in the God of wrath. 

Geesh. Sounds like the argument I had with my wife last week. We went to a big birthday party where they brought in a priest and turned it into a quasi-religious ceremony and in my opinion that was a very rude thing to do. I think it was the first time I ever didn't at least respectfully bow my head during the prayers and it was very interesting to look around at how many others were just smiling and looking at each other as though to say I don't believe in this nonsense either. Afterward, she kept telling me I was just angry with God and I kept telling her there is no way I can be angry with someone I don't believe exists. Finally I did get angry and told her I didn't want to discuss religion with her any more. Religious people just don't get it. In their minds, there is no way you can simply not believe in God - there has to be something wrong with you and you are in denial about it, or under the control of Satan.

And I'm not anchored in the God of wrath. That's the Bible you are talking about. I do recommend that every believer read and understand it for themselves and not let the priest/pastor tell you what it says. If everybody did that I think we would have fewer believers.

The experience of never having known very much about Christianity is totally different than the experience of having been involved in it and then having one of those Santa Claus "aha!" moments about what's really going on.

I think that you can still get a lot out of going to church after having seen through the supernatural accoutrements that are so important to some people, but it's never the same as it was when you imagined Jesus and Santa Claus were working together to make all of your secular and spiritual dreams come true.

I wonder how many religious leaders have those "aha!" moments once they get deeper into their ministries and can't really change the message at that point because their livelihood depends on sticking with the earlier narrative.  That would be a tough way to make a living.

It's interesting how far apart people can be on this topic even when they are trying to be understanding with one another.  All the religious person can say to the non-believer is that he is sorry the non-believer is missing out on such an amazing way of experiencing communion with the supernatural, while the non-believer's only real option in response is to say that he is also sorry that a seemingly rational person would allow himself to be so deluded as to believe in the existence of an invisible supernatural being that no one can see, hear or otherwise detect, except through their emotions and by reference to mystical writings from several thousand years ago.

Perhaps the best we can hope for when people of different religious beliefs meet is that they don't try to kill each other.

When a believer asks a non-believer how he can possibly not believe, a good response might be to ask the believer how he feels about religions other than his own.  I suspect that when it comes to other religions, the believer and non-believer probably have a lot in common. 

[Fred]

When a believer asks a non-believer how he can possibly not believe, a good response might be to ask the believer how he feels about religions other than his own.  I suspect that when it comes to other religions, the believer and non-believer probably have a lot in common.

Like when the atheist says to the Christian that you and I are the same but I just believe in one less god than you do.

One of my work buddies that I spend all day with is a devout Christian and I don't think he even knows I'm an atheist. I can even talk to him about the Bible of which I know a lot more than he does to his amazement. Except for dropping hints of what I really believe neither one of us really wants to get into it too deeply which is just fine by me.

This forum is another matter, being completely anonymous. One of the great things about the internet, I believe.  It lets everybody be Donald Trump and say what they really want to say.

[Tortoise]

Wow, page 262 and this thread is still going!

This has probably been said dozens of times by different forum members along the way, but I'll just add my own voice:

This thread will never truly be resolved, and I think that's inescapable. There are three groups of people here: (1) believers, (2) atheists and agnostics, and (3) people who are on the fence about religion.

This thread is, and always will be, for the people who are on the fence.

The believers will probably remain believers. The atheists and agnostics will probably remain atheists and agnostics. It's the people who are on the fence who might actually be swayed one way or the other regarding religion and the meaning of the universe.

To the people who are still on the fence: Go read C.S. Lewis's Mere Christianity. Read it in a very still, quiet place, and read it with an open, inquisitive mind.

[Mountaineer]

Not really directly related to the last 262 pages, but I've been thinking it's really funny how most Christians cannot consolidate God being just AND God hating/punishing/killing individuals and whole groups.

Above someone was accused of being "fixated on a God of wrath," but the God portrayed in the Bible IS a God of wrath. Other things for sure, but wrath is definitely there too.

It's just interesting to me how so few are willing to consider that God might be wrathful AND good at the same time, i.e. that in some instances wrath and judgmentality are good.

Very true.  God is the God of wrath AND the God of mercy and forgiveness, a statement that requires MUCH unpacking to understand.  The confusion, conflict, misdirection, and possible rejection usually comes when one gets fixated on either one without understanding the other.  I've said this before many times in this thread, but when one subscribes to a "works righteousness" idea of religion (almost all if not all other religions other than Christianity and many denominations within Christianity) it is so very easy to fall into despair when you realize that you can never do enough, or into pride when you think you know it all and are so superior to the unfortunate others who don't get it.  When you come to realize that God does it all, is in charge of all, and freely gives you what you do not deserve, it is true freedom; no guilt, no burden, no hate of others, just a thankful response to God and desire to help your neighbor - most of the time    - simultaneous saints and sinners we are.  My view.

... M

[MediumTex]

Not really directly related to the last 262 pages, but I've been thinking it's really funny how most Christians cannot consolidate God being just AND God hating/punishing/killing individuals and whole groups.

Above someone was accused of being "fixated on a God of wrath," but the God portrayed in the Bible IS a God of wrath. Other things for sure, but wrath is definitely there too.

It's just interesting to me how so few are willing to consider that God might be wrathful AND good at the same time, i.e. that in some instances wrath and judgmentality are good.

I think that it's more like the human conception of God evolved as humans became more culturally sophisticated.

When the Greeks got involved, God became a lot less full of wrath and a lot more interested in each individual person, which aligns pretty well with the Greek concept of the individual's role in society.

I still don't think that an objective observer would consider the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament as being remotely related to one another.  Would the God of the Old Testament allow a bunch of Jewish bureaucrats and Roman thugs to murder his Son?  No way.

[Fred]

Very true.  God is the God of wrath AND the God of mercy and forgiveness, a statement that requires MUCH unpacking to understand.

It is easy to understand why ancient people believed in a God of wrath. They had no understanding of what causes disease, natural disasters, etcetera, on this cold, cruel planet so the obvious conclusion was that God(s) must be angry.

Today, we have natural explanations for a lot of these things. We even know how to prevent and cure some diseases and though we can't prevent natural disasters we are able to predict some of them like hurricanes and tsunamis and warn people in advance (to flee from the wrath of God?).

But the "Holy" Bible describes these random events as acts of God - "Stormy wind fulfilling his word, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah with fire rained down from heaven (and there is actually some archaeological evidence for the events described in the Bible), the flood of Noah which might be referring to some real event even though the Bible story is preposterous. A lot of religious people still see the hand of God in these things. Pat Robertson warned the city of Orlando that God might send a hurricane their way because they passed some pro-homosexual law.

I see no evidence that there is a God who either causes these things or shows mercy. If he existed he could certainly provide evidence but he chooses not to. Go figure.

If you believe that God is a God of wrath but that he has now forgiven you because of the events described in the Bible, you have no evidence for this. It is all conjecture on your part.

[Mountaineer]

Very true.  God is the God of wrath AND the God of mercy and forgiveness, a statement that requires MUCH unpacking to understand.

It is easy to understand why ancient people believed in a God of wrath. They had no understanding of what causes disease, natural disasters, etcetera, on this cold, cruel planet so the obvious conclusion was that God(s) must be angry.

Today, we have natural explanations for a lot of these things. We even know how to prevent and cure some diseases and though we can't prevent natural disasters we are able to predict some of them like hurricanes and tsunamis and warn people in advance (to flee from the wrath of God?).

But the "Holy" Bible describes these random events as acts of God - "Stormy wind fulfilling his word, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah with fire rained down from heaven (and there is actually some archaeological evidence for the events described in the Bible), the flood of Noah which might be referring to some real event even though the Bible story is preposterous. A lot of religious people still see the hand of God in these things. Pat Robertson warned the city of Orlando that God might send a hurricane their way because they passed some pro-homosexual law.

I see no evidence that there is a God who either causes these things or shows mercy. If he existed he could certainly provide evidence but he chooses not to. Go figure.

If you believe that God is a God of wrath but that he has now forgiven you because of the events described in the Bible, you have no evidence for this. It is all conjecture on your part.

You have just defined faith.  We walk by faith now, not sight.  We will walk by sight after the Last Day when we are in the presence of God in all His glory in our restored, perfected, sin free bodies. 

... M

[MediumTex]

Very true.  God is the God of wrath AND the God of mercy and forgiveness, a statement that requires MUCH unpacking to understand.

It is easy to understand why ancient people believed in a God of wrath. They had no understanding of what causes disease, natural disasters, etcetera, on this cold, cruel planet so the obvious conclusion was that God(s) must be angry.

Today, we have natural explanations for a lot of these things. We even know how to prevent and cure some diseases and though we can't prevent natural disasters we are able to predict some of them like hurricanes and tsunamis and warn people in advance (to flee from the wrath of God?).

But the "Holy" Bible describes these random events as acts of God - "Stormy wind fulfilling his word, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah with fire rained down from heaven (and there is actually some archaeological evidence for the events described in the Bible), the flood of Noah which might be referring to some real event even though the Bible story is preposterous. A lot of religious people still see the hand of God in these things. Pat Robertson warned the city of Orlando that God might send a hurricane their way because they passed some pro-homosexual law.

I see no evidence that there is a God who either causes these things or shows mercy. If he existed he could certainly provide evidence but he chooses not to. Go figure.

If you believe that God is a God of wrath but that he has now forgiven you because of the events described in the Bible, you have no evidence for this. It is all conjecture on your part.

You have just defined faith.  We walk by faith now, not sight.  We will walk by sight after the Last Day when we are in the presence of God in all His glory in our restored, perfected, sin free bodies. 

... M

The thing that makes me sad, though, is that the faith often results in, and even requires, people to hate and dehumanize others with different beliefs.

I don't see how you can maintain faith in a certain type of supernatural religious belief system without also basically looking down on everyone with beliefs that are different than your own. 

How can a religious person ever see any real beauty in other cultures with other religious traditions?  It seems like they would all look like different iterations of future residents of Hell.

According to the stories we read in the Bible, why shouldn't we view events like the earthquake in Taiwan as a manifestation of God's wrath over the fact that 95% of people in Taiwan have rejected Christianity?  According to the Bible, isn't that what earthquakes are for?  To punish people who are displeasing to God, right?  If that's too harsh of a position to take today, why was it okay in the Bible?

[jafs]

One can have faith without doing that, but it requires understanding that your faith isn't knowledge or absolute.

[Fred]

According to the stories we read in the Bible, why shouldn't we view events like the earthquake in Taiwan as a manifestation of God's wrath over the fact that 95% of people in Taiwan have rejected Christianity?  According to the Bible, isn't that what earthquakes are for?  To punish people who are displeasing to God, right?  If that's too harsh of a position to take today, why was it okay in the Bible?

I think the last time I actually went to church on my own accord without accompanying my wife to a funeral or wedding was right after the Tsunami in Indonesia and the man they let speak about it gave a talk about how Christians were saying that God had nothing to do with it and that this was wrong. He said that God does, indeed, allow these things to happen to teach us the lesson that life is transient and we need to pay attention to eternal things.

Well, I guess it's an improvement over "Biblical" days when God actually caused these things to happen to punish us. Now he just "allows" them to happen for our own good.

I would rather think that when it says in the Bible that God rested after creating the universe in seven days that he went off somewhere and took a nap because he was so tired. I could probably sit down and have a beer with a god like that.

[MediumTex]

One can have faith without doing that, but it requires understanding that your faith isn't knowledge or absolute.

Of course it's absolute.

We're talking about a person's eternal fate.  The rules for going to the good place and avoiding the bad place are about as absolute as it gets.

That's the problem.

I tend to hew pretty closely to Jesus's ministry without the supernatural accoutrements that were added later for effect.  I find that message to be all the religion most people should need (i.e., kindness, humility, generosity and understanding), but I don't look down on or feel bad for people who don't find Jesus's message meaningful or true.  Maybe their belief system is one of the ones that was upstream from Jesus's teachings, and they are actually closer to the source in their beliefs than I am in mine.

[MediumTex]

According to the stories we read in the Bible, why shouldn't we view events like the earthquake in Taiwan as a manifestation of God's wrath over the fact that 95% of people in Taiwan have rejected Christianity?  According to the Bible, isn't that what earthquakes are for?  To punish people who are displeasing to God, right?  If that's too harsh of a position to take today, why was it okay in the Bible?

I think the last time I actually went to church on my own accord without accompanying my wife to a funeral or wedding was right after the Tsunami in Indonesia and the man they let speak about it gave a talk about how Christians were saying that God had nothing to do with it and that this was wrong. He said that God does, indeed, allow these things to happen to teach us the lesson that life is transient and we need to pay attention to eternal things.

Well, I guess it's an improvement over "Biblical" days when God actually caused these things to happen to punish us. Now he just "allows" them to happen for our own good.

I would rather think that when it says in the Bible that God rested after creating the universe in seven days that he went off somewhere and took a nap because he was so tired. I could probably sit down and have a beer with a god like that.

If there is a God in some other supernatural place and we can expect to encounter him after we die, I am 100% certain that he would tell us that the Bible totally misunderstood and misinterpreted every effort he made to communicate with humanity, and that's part of the reason he stopped doing it.

This was Thomas Paine's position--i.e., that there is obviously some supreme architect of the universe, and his nature is likely beyond human understanding, and the Bible is basically just an arrogant attempt to explain the un-explainable.

[Mountaineer]

It is easy to understand why ancient people believed in a God of wrath. They had no understanding of what causes disease, natural disasters, etcetera, on this cold, cruel planet so the obvious conclusion was that God(s) must be angry.

Today, we have natural explanations for a lot of these things. We even know how to prevent and cure some diseases and though we can't prevent natural disasters we are able to predict some of them like hurricanes and tsunamis and warn people in advance (to flee from the wrath of God?).

But the "Holy" Bible describes these random events as acts of God - "Stormy wind fulfilling his word, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah with fire rained down from heaven (and there is actually some archaeological evidence for the events described in the Bible), the flood of Noah which might be referring to some real event even though the Bible story is preposterous. A lot of religious people still see the hand of God in these things. Pat Robertson warned the city of Orlando that God might send a hurricane their way because they passed some pro-homosexual law.

I see no evidence that there is a God who either causes these things or shows mercy. If he existed he could certainly provide evidence but he chooses not to. Go figure.

If you believe that God is a God of wrath but that he has now forgiven you because of the events described in the Bible, you have no evidence for this. It is all conjecture on your part.

You have just defined faith.  We walk by faith now, not sight.  We will walk by sight after the Last Day when we are in the presence of God in all His glory in our restored, perfected, sin free bodies. 

... M

The thing that makes me sad, though, is that the faith often results in, and even requires, people to hate and dehumanize others with different beliefs.

1. I don't see how you can maintain faith in a certain type of supernatural religious belief system without also basically looking down on everyone with beliefs that are different than your own. 

2. How can a religious person ever see any real beauty in other cultures with other religious traditions?  It seems like they would all look like different iterations of future residents of Hell.

3. According to the stories we read in the Bible, why shouldn't we view events like the earthquake in Taiwan as a manifestation of God's wrath over the fact that 95% of people in Taiwan have rejected Christianity?  According to the Bible, isn't that what earthquakes are for?  To punish people who are displeasing to God, right?  If that's too harsh of a position to take today, why was it okay in the Bible?

MT,

Big questions to unpack in a brief response but I'll offer a couple of comments for consideration (I added numbers to your questions so I could address them easily):

1. I can only speak for myself, but I do not look down on those with other belief systems.  Really.  I might feel sorry for what they are missing out on, but never do I think of them as less of a human being than myself.  I am a Christian and I think if one really understands the teachings of Jesus, the purpose of the Scriptures, and the explanations given by Paul and the other NT writers, one would not look down on others.  Caveat - we are all sinners and fail to do what we would like to do so I'm sure that Christians will lapse and do it - it just is not consistent with what we want to do or what God wants us to do.

2. Because there is always hope that God will give them the gift of belief in Christianity.  From my human standpoint, those "others" are just as valuable, if not more so, to God as I am and perhaps, just perhaps, I might be the one selected to help them hear the Word, the Gospel.  Who knows?

3. From my perspective, mankind and the whole creation was cursed as a result of the fall of Adam (original sin: wanting to be like God - doubting God - thinking he knew better than God).  Adam and subsequent humans were not the only thing that was cursed, the whole creation was cursed as a result of Adam.  The whole point of the OT was to point to the need for a Savior, for people AND the creation.  Man cannot save himself no matter how hard he tries and neither can creation.  The Scriptures say creation groans (think stars colliding, earthquakes, violent weather, etc.) in anticipation of being restored to the way God intended.  People get sick.  People die.  Death entered the world at the fall.  Jesus was the solution to the curse and God was the only one who could provide the solution to the curse - which He did by taking on human form/flesh and taking on all sin from all time and taking it to the grave.  Good News!  We win.  Because of what Jesus did.  So, why do we have death, earthquakes, tornados, sickness?  Simple answer: Sin.  It still exists because we are not yet to the Last Day when Jesus will return.  We live in the now and not yet.  Satan has been defeated and he knows it but that does not prevent him from running rampant between when he was defeated (on the cross by Jesus) and when Jesus returns to claim those who believe as His.  Personally, I do not equate bad things happening because of God's punishment - I equate bad things happening because of original sin (Adam and the fall and the consequences of that for us and the whole creation) and actual sin (people do bad things that have consequences).  If we got what we deserved, we would never "be"; it is only because of the grace of God that we are alive at all - He is allowing time for all to hear the Word, the Good News, the Gospel.  I'm ready for that Last Day to come at any moment, are you?

... M

[MediumTex]

1. I can only speak for myself, but I do not look down on those with other belief systems.  Really.  I might feel sorry for what they are missing out on, but never do I think of them as less of a human being than myself.  I am a Christian and I think if one really understands the teachings of Jesus, the purpose of the Scriptures, and the explanations given by Paul and the other NT writers, one would not look down on others.  Caveat - we are all sinners and fail to do what we would like to do so I'm sure that Christians will lapse and do it - it just is not consistent with what we want to do or what God wants us to do.

But it's pretty cool to know you're right about God and everyone else with different beliefs is wrong, though, isn't it?

2. Because there is always hope that God will give them the gift of belief in Christianity.  From my human standpoint, those "others" are just as valuable, if not more so, to God as I am and perhaps, just perhaps, I might be the one selected to help them hear the Word, the Gospel.  Who knows?

Some will get the gift.  Most will just go to Hell if they didn't happen to be born into a Christian community.  Some will get the gift and misunderstand it.  I assume they will go to Hell, too, since the path of the righteous is narrow.

3. From my perspective, mankind and the whole creation was cursed as a result of the fall of Adam (original sin: wanting to be like God - doubting God - thinking he knew better than God).  Adam and subsequent humans were not the only thing that was cursed, the whole creation was cursed as a result of Adam.  The whole point of the OT was to point to the need for a Savior, for people AND the creation.  Man cannot save himself no matter how hard he tries and neither can creation.  The Scriptures say creation groans (think stars colliding, earthquakes, violent weather, etc.) in anticipation of being restored to the way God intended.  People get sick.  People die.  Death entered the world at the fall.  Jesus was the solution to the curse and God was the only one who could provide the solution to the curse - which He did by taking on human form/flesh and taking on all sin from all time and taking it to the grave.  Good News!  We win.  Because of what Jesus did.  So, why do we have death, earthquakes, tornados, sickness?  Simple answer: Sin.  It still exists because we are not yet to the Last Day when Jesus will return.  We live in the now and not yet.  Satan has been defeated and he knows it but that does not prevent him from running rampant between when he was defeated (on the cross by Jesus) and when Jesus returns to claim those who believe as His.  Personally, I do not equate bad things happening because of God's punishment - I equate bad things happening because of original sin (Adam and the fall and the consequences of that for us and the whole creation) and actual sin (people do bad things that have consequences).  If we got what we deserved, we would never "be"; it is only because of the grace of God that we are alive at all - He is allowing time for all to hear the Word, the Good News, the Gospel.

Another reasonable interpretation is that if all of this cursed stuff originated in the mind of God, maybe the real problem is that God's own mind is cursed, and he is too narcissistic to take responsibility for it and instead endlessly torments his antfarm of humans on earth for their shortcomings that he gave them when he made them.

I know that's a terrible thing to say about God, but an honest reading of the Bible points to that conclusion, and we all need help from time to time, right?  Why would it be any different for God?  Maybe he's just had a bad epoch.   

I'm ready for that Last Day to come at any moment, are you?

Yeah, I think so.  In moments like that, I think you just have to have courage and hope that what actually happens bears some vague resemblance to what you thought was going to happen.

If your own death came along and you found that you simply had the experience of easing off to sleep and never waking again with no further experience of consciousness or self-awareness, would you be okay with that?

Does the thought of death being the end trigger feelings of nihilism in you, or does it trigger feelings of relief and gratitude for ever having lived in the first place?

[Mountaineer]

1. I can only speak for myself, but I do not look down on those with other belief systems.  Really.  I might feel sorry for what they are missing out on, but never do I think of them as less of a human being than myself.  I am a Christian and I think if one really understands the teachings of Jesus, the purpose of the Scriptures, and the explanations given by Paul and the other NT writers, one would not look down on others.  Caveat - we are all sinners and fail to do what we would like to do so I'm sure that Christians will lapse and do it - it just is not consistent with what we want to do or what God wants us to do.

A. But it's pretty cool to know you're right about God and everyone else with different beliefs is wrong, though, isn't it?

2. Because there is always hope that God will give them the gift of belief in Christianity.  From my human standpoint, those "others" are just as valuable, if not more so, to God as I am and perhaps, just perhaps, I might be the one selected to help them hear the Word, the Gospel.  Who knows?

B. Some will get the gift.  Most will just go to Hell if they didn't happen to be born into a Christian community.  Some will get the gift and misunderstand it.  I assume they will go to Hell, too, since the path of the righteous is narrow.

3. From my perspective, mankind and the whole creation was cursed as a result of the fall of Adam (original sin: wanting to be like God - doubting God - thinking he knew better than God).  Adam and subsequent humans were not the only thing that was cursed, the whole creation was cursed as a result of Adam.  The whole point of the OT was to point to the need for a Savior, for people AND the creation.  Man cannot save himself no matter how hard he tries and neither can creation.  The Scriptures say creation groans (think stars colliding, earthquakes, violent weather, etc.) in anticipation of being restored to the way God intended.  People get sick.  People die.  Death entered the world at the fall.  Jesus was the solution to the curse and God was the only one who could provide the solution to the curse - which He did by taking on human form/flesh and taking on all sin from all time and taking it to the grave.  Good News!  We win.  Because of what Jesus did.  So, why do we have death, earthquakes, tornados, sickness?  Simple answer: Sin.  It still exists because we are not yet to the Last Day when Jesus will return.  We live in the now and not yet.  Satan has been defeated and he knows it but that does not prevent him from running rampant between when he was defeated (on the cross by Jesus) and when Jesus returns to claim those who believe as His.  Personally, I do not equate bad things happening because of God's punishment - I equate bad things happening because of original sin (Adam and the fall and the consequences of that for us and the whole creation) and actual sin (people do bad things that have consequences).  If we got what we deserved, we would never "be"; it is only because of the grace of God that we are alive at all - He is allowing time for all to hear the Word, the Good News, the Gospel.

Another reasonable interpretation is that if all of this cursed stuff originated in the mind of God, maybe the real problem is that God's own mind is cursed, and he is too narcissistic to take responsibility for it and instead endlessly torments his antfarm of humans on earth for their shortcomings that he gave them when he made them.

C. I know that's a terrible thing to say about God, but an honest reading of the Bible points to that conclusion, and we all need help from time to time, right?  Why would it be any different for God?  Maybe he's just had a bad epoch.   

I'm ready for that Last Day to come at any moment, are you?

Yeah, I think so.  In moments like that, I think you just have to have courage and hope that what actually happens bears some vague resemblance to what you thought was going to happen.

D.  If your own death came along and you found that you simply had the experience of easing off to sleep and never waking again with no further experience of consciousness or self-awareness, would you be okay with that?

E.  Does the thought of death being the end trigger feelings of nihilism in you, or does it trigger feelings of relief and gratitude for ever having lived in the first place?

Dang it MT, I'm going to "letter" your items this time; I don't want to get in a rut. 

A.  Not cool.  I just take God at his Word.  No need to gloat.

B.  Above my paygrade.  I figure God will get whomever He wants regardless of what type of belief system the person was born in to.  Works for millions of Africans, Asians, South Americans, etc.  And the path of righteousness is extremely narrow - I think only one did it, Jesus.  Because of Jesus' righteousness, we are "in like Flint". 

C.  Hey, don't you know the definition of perfect?  Incapable of error?  All powerful, all knowledgable, all present?  No mistakes are possible.

D.  I would not know if I eased off to sleep and never woke up. 

E.  No on the nihilism, for sure.  Relief?????  Why?  Gratitude?  Yes.  I'm grateful for every thing I have been given.  The harder things to be thankful for  (meaning I have to stop and reflect and think and study God's Word) are my sessions of pneumonia, hemorrhoids, achy joints, pinched nerves, and vehicles that do not get 100 mpg. 

I'm going to bed now.  We can continue later if you like.  Have a fantastic evening, and remember, resistance is futile...........

... M

[MediumTex]

I'm going to bed now.  We can continue later if you like.  Have a fantastic evening, and remember, resistance is futile...........

... M

10-4 my friend, and you're right, resistance is futile.

[Fred]

Personally, I do not equate bad things happening because of God's punishment - I equate bad things happening because of original sin (Adam and the fall and the consequences of that for us and the whole creation) and actual sin (people do bad things that have consequences).

A classic case of rationalizing domestic abuse if ever there was one.

I said don't eat the fruit and you ate the God Damn fruit any way so I not only smacked you up side the head but cursed all your offspring forever and ever but don't blame it on me. It's all your own goddamn fault and all your kids too. So don't come crying to me when you see all those hurricanes and earthquakes and sickness and dying comes along you bunch of little bastards.

Sorry for being sacrilegious. Nixon said if the president does it, it's not illegal. But God says when I do it, it's not only not illegal it's "HOLY".