Re: Whoa: Nearly a Third of Democrats Believe the Election Was Stolen From Trump
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:28 pm
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Proof? If you can bring me one shred of evidence that there was "fraud" or "theft" in any way, I'm talking real proof submitted and accepted in a court of law, then we can have a discussion. Until said proof is brought to the table your arguments are all conjecture. If Trump miraculously brings some real proof to the table tomorrow that there was fraud, and that the election would have been a different outcome without the fraud, you will see me completely flip my opinion. My opinion is not set in stone, it is based on the current state of the evidence (or lack thereof). I may not have liked it, but I accepted Trump winning in 2016, and I would similarly accept him winning in 2020, if he really won. I want the president that won the election to be the president. It just so happens there is 0 proof submitted to the courts that it was Trump that won the election. Until that changes I operate under the view that Biden won, as all evidence in hand currently shows.Don wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:26 pmThe problem is that even though many Democrats know that the election was stolen away from Trump in the middle of the night they just don't care.Libertarian666 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:29 am "But, Joe Biden’s problems are not simply because many Republicans believe the election was stolen. It’s true that the poll showed a significant partisan divide on this issue: 75 percent of Republicans believe it is very likely (61 percent) or somewhat likely (14 percent) that the election was stolen from Trump. But, according to the poll, while 69 percent of Democrats say it is not at all likely (61 percent) or not very likely (8 percent) that the election was stolen from Trump, 30 percent of Democrats believe it is very likely (20 percent) or somewhat likely (10 percent) that it was.
Let me repeat, nearly a third of Democrats believe it is likely that the election was stolen from President Trump. That’s a remarkable number. Huge, in fact."
https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/m ... p-n1160882
Lack of a moral compass, perhaps?
pmward wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:52 pmProof? If you can bring me one shred of evidence that there was "fraud" or "theft" in any way, I'm talking real proof submitted and accepted in a court of law, then we can have a discussion. Until said proof is brought to the table your arguments are all conjecture. If Trump miraculously brings some real proof to the table tomorrow that there was fraud, and that the election would have been a different outcome without the fraud, you will see me completely flip my opinion. My opinion is not set in stone, it is based on the current state of the evidence (or lack thereof). I may not have liked it, but I accepted Trump winning in 2016, and I would similarly accept him winning in 2020, if he really won. I want the president that won the election to be the president. It just so happens there is 0 proof submitted to the courts that it was Trump that won the election.Don wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:26 pmThe problem is that even though many Democrats know that the election was stolen away from Trump in the middle of the night they just don't care.Libertarian666 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:29 am "But, Joe Biden’s problems are not simply because many Republicans believe the election was stolen. It’s true that the poll showed a significant partisan divide on this issue: 75 percent of Republicans believe it is very likely (61 percent) or somewhat likely (14 percent) that the election was stolen from Trump. But, according to the poll, while 69 percent of Democrats say it is not at all likely (61 percent) or not very likely (8 percent) that the election was stolen from Trump, 30 percent of Democrats believe it is very likely (20 percent) or somewhat likely (10 percent) that it was.
Let me repeat, nearly a third of Democrats believe it is likely that the election was stolen from President Trump. That’s a remarkable number. Huge, in fact."
https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/m ... p-n1160882
Lack of a moral compass, perhaps?
Not only that, but WOMEN!Ad Orientem wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:01 pm I hate to admit this, but I think I have found the evidence of fraud that Trump and his surrogates have been referring to. And I'm fairly certain the video footage was not doctored. Assuming the video is legitimate, then it is pretty much damning. In all three of the contested states, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Georgia... they let black people vote.
I think it would take time to document and process some proof, but not all proof. There should be something out by now. What do I see? A bunch of small court cases being laughed out of the courts (even by right wing judges) specifically for "lack of evidence". We are not guilty until proven innocent in this country. It is on Trump to prove the guilt of the Democratic Party, not on the Democratic Party to prove its innocence. The lack of evidence is in itself the very argument for innocence. So, I think we all should operate from the viewpoint of the evidence at hand... and that evidence says Biden won, and should be allowed to begin his transition just like every single president before him was allowed to start their transition. We can always stop that transition in a few weeks if evidence is really brought up. We should not alter our operations as a country in any way when there is no proof to suggest altering them in any way.Simonjester wrote: would you accept that it might take time to collect document and present "real" proof and that enough time hasn't passed yet?
FWWIW i haven't seen any real proof yet either, but i see mountains of indication of foul play, and do accept the above.. i will also accept that it may not be provable, and possibly may not exist...
What mountains of indication of foul play that have merit? Sure there are plenty of allegations, and conspiracies. It's easy to shout that Dominion rigged the vote tabulations in Philadelphia as that video you posted yesterday did, however Dominion wasn't even involved in tabulating the votes in Philadelphia. I assume we need to rely on our court system to separate the wheat from the chaff. Up until this point all allegations have been tossed out as complete nonsense.Simonjester wrote: would you accept that it might take time to collect document and present "real" proof and that enough time hasn't passed yet?
FWWIW i haven't seen any real proof yet either, but i see mountains of indication of foul play, and do accept the above.. i will also accept that it may not be provable, and possibly may not exist...
This HAS been the Republican playbook for quite some time now. From the book on Hillary I'd prior referenced today...pmward wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:19 pm Would Republicans like it if all a Democrat had to do was make an allegation against a Republican with no proof to get their role altered in any way? Like what if during the Trump impeachment fiasco they removed Trump from power until it was all over? Would that have been fair? Of course not. An accusation is not enough, and should not ever be enough, to change anything.
How ironic I say this just a couple hours ago. Biden just got the go ahead for the official transition to begin.pmward wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:45 pm By the way I should also mention I think Biden has taken this whole thing very well considering. He has said he wishes he could begin his transition officially, but that he is willing to be patient and that he is not going to try to fight for it in the courts. He is not trying to fight Trump in a social media PR blitz. He doesn't seem to feel any need to defend himself. He doesn't really seem phased in any real way by all of Trumps accusations and actions. He is really just kind of sitting back, doing the best he can with what is available, and letting the evidence speak for itself. All things considered, I think that the way he has handled this craziness is admirable. You know Trump wouldn't show that kind of patience, low-key confidence, and restraint if the roles were reversed. The difference in professionalism between Biden and Trump is striking.
pmward wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:21 pmHow ironic I say this just a couple hours ago. Biden just got the go ahead for the official transition to begin.pmward wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:45 pm By the way I should also mention I think Biden has taken this whole thing very well considering. He has said he wishes he could begin his transition officially, but that he is willing to be patient and that he is not going to try to fight for it in the courts. He is not trying to fight Trump in a social media PR blitz. He doesn't seem to feel any need to defend himself. He doesn't really seem phased in any real way by all of Trumps accusations and actions. He is really just kind of sitting back, doing the best he can with what is available, and letting the evidence speak for itself. All things considered, I think that the way he has handled this craziness is admirable. You know Trump wouldn't show that kind of patience, low-key confidence, and restraint if the roles were reversed. The difference in professionalism between Biden and Trump is striking.
I'm not surprised on the refusal to concede. I mean we all knew back in 2017 that if he lost in 2020 he wouldn't concede. Doesn't matter the circumstances. That's just the kind of classy guy he is.Ad Orientem wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:24 pmpmward wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:21 pmHow ironic I say this just a couple hours ago. Biden just got the go ahead for the official transition to begin.pmward wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:45 pm By the way I should also mention I think Biden has taken this whole thing very well considering. He has said he wishes he could begin his transition officially, but that he is willing to be patient and that he is not going to try to fight for it in the courts. He is not trying to fight Trump in a social media PR blitz. He doesn't seem to feel any need to defend himself. He doesn't really seem phased in any real way by all of Trumps accusations and actions. He is really just kind of sitting back, doing the best he can with what is available, and letting the evidence speak for itself. All things considered, I think that the way he has handled this craziness is admirable. You know Trump wouldn't show that kind of patience, low-key confidence, and restraint if the roles were reversed. The difference in professionalism between Biden and Trump is striking.
I just saw a report that Mr. Trump, while refusing to concede, has given permission for his people to begin formal cooperation with the incoming administration. That's probably as much as we can hope for between now and January 20.
My theory on stuff like that is that lots of people all over the world believe the ends justify the means. They believe in the nobility of their cause so much that it doesn't matter what it takes to achieve it. I think those people are much more likely to identify as liberals or democrats because that group is all about achieving some social "good" (equality or whatever, nobody having their feelings hurt etc.) at ANY cost. Violence, fraud, theft, are all justifiable to get what they want. They see Trump as so evil for some reason that to them it's morally wrong NOT to commit fraud or violence to get him out.
Thanks!!!! I promise to use those powers only for good!MangoMan wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:42 amClick on the user's name in the left column to view their profile. Then click 'add foe'.SomeDude wrote: ↑Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:24 pmI've looked around but i don't see how to do that. Can you give me a quick tip please? It's necessary on every forum to not feed the trolls. ThanksLibertarian666 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:15 am
Just block the lunatics and it will look as it did before.
Btw, welcome to the forum.
SomeDude wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:39 pm...The evidence of coordinated fraud is so obvious the only way to claim it doesn't exist is to be ignorant of any facts or be intellectually dishonest. I mean for God's sake between the dead people voting, the massive 4AM dumps of hundreds of thousands of biden votes in dem cities without even the down ballot races selected, the exclusion of observers in those cities (only one reason for that), the fact Trump could draw 50,000 in a rural area and joe couldn't fill a parking lot in a major city. The software and statistical anomalies in the voting data alone make the whole thing a joke.
I thought they have hundreds of affidavits of people testifying they were obstructed from observing the ballots, being told to back date ballots, observing batches of ballots being run over and over, video footage millions of people have now seen showing workers filling out ballots with ummmm.....just one name on them, crazy things like 80k votes with only Biden's name on them in GA and just 700 like that for Trump, multiple instances of ballots found that favor Trump that were misplaced on election night on some flash drives, biden winning 100% of the votes of people over 120 years old. The list goes on and on.Ad Orientem wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:49 pmSomeDude wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:39 pm...The evidence of coordinated fraud is so obvious the only way to claim it doesn't exist is to be ignorant of any facts or be intellectually dishonest. I mean for God's sake between the dead people voting, the massive 4AM dumps of hundreds of thousands of biden votes in dem cities without even the down ballot races selected, the exclusion of observers in those cities (only one reason for that), the fact Trump could draw 50,000 in a rural area and joe couldn't fill a parking lot in a major city. The software and statistical anomalies in the voting data alone make the whole thing a joke.
Except... most of that never happened outside of the fever swamps of the internet. If it did, Trump's lawyers would have walked into court with so much evidence they would have needed an army of staff to carry in the boxes of paper records and digital records. Instead they walked into court holding their dicks, and that was about it.
Why have these "facts" not made it into court? Oh that's right, because they aren't true and Trump would be tried for perjury if he submitted them. The moment these things get submitted and accepted into court we can discuss them. Until then, it's purely conjecture, your argument is laughably weak, and it has no legs at all to stand on. Accusation is not guilt. You need to prove guilt. Your argument does not prove guilt in any way. If/when there is evidence that proves guilt, I will agree with you. Until that point, sorry to tell you but nobody here that hasn't drank the Trump Kool-Aide (aka Tech and Don) takes your argument seriously. The real, legally submitted evidence (or lack thereof) is my opinion. Unless the evidence changes, my opinion doesn't change.SomeDude wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:39 pmMy theory on stuff like that is that lots of people all over the world believe the ends justify the means. They believe in the nobility of their cause so much that it doesn't matter what it takes to achieve it. I think those people are much more likely to identify as liberals or democrats because that group is all about achieving some social "good" (equality or whatever, nobody having their feelings hurt etc.) at ANY cost. Violence, fraud, theft, are all justifiable to get what they want. They see Trump as so evil for some reason that to them it's morally wrong NOT to commit fraud or violence to get him out.
The evidence of coordinated fraud is so obvious the only way to claim it doesn't exist is to be ignorant of any facts or be intellectually dishonest. I mean for God's sake between the dead people voting, the massive 4AM dumps of hundreds of thousands of biden votes in dem cities without even the down ballot races selected, the exclusion of observers in those cities (only one reason for that), the fact Trump could draw 50,000 in a rural area and joe couldn't fill a parking lot in a major city. The software and statistical anomalies in the voting data alone make the whole thing a joke.
This is a very good point. I usually equate it to yelling at a rain cloud to stop raining.Libertarian666 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:36 am
However, arguing with stage 4 TDS victims is like arguing with a washing machine.
Do you really believe Biden-Kamala got 10M more votes than Obama in 2012? Biden did much worse with non-whites, worse in FL and Ohio, and basically every state and area outside of these major cities in the swing states where they kicked out all the observers.pmward wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:10 amWhy have these "facts" not made it into court? Oh that's right, because they aren't true and Trump would be tried for perjury if he submitted them. The moment these things get submitted and accepted into court we can discuss them. Until then, it's purely conjecture, your argument is laughably weak, and it has no legs at all to stand on. Accusation is not guilt. You need to prove guilt. Your argument does not prove guilt in any way. If/when there is evidence that proves guilt, I will agree with you. Until that point, sorry to tell you but nobody here that hasn't drank the Trump Kool-Aide (aka Tech and Don) takes your argument seriously. The real, legally submitted evidence (or lack thereof) is my opinion. Unless the evidence changes, my opinion doesn't change.SomeDude wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:39 pmMy theory on stuff like that is that lots of people all over the world believe the ends justify the means. They believe in the nobility of their cause so much that it doesn't matter what it takes to achieve it. I think those people are much more likely to identify as liberals or democrats because that group is all about achieving some social "good" (equality or whatever, nobody having their feelings hurt etc.) at ANY cost. Violence, fraud, theft, are all justifiable to get what they want. They see Trump as so evil for some reason that to them it's morally wrong NOT to commit fraud or violence to get him out.
The evidence of coordinated fraud is so obvious the only way to claim it doesn't exist is to be ignorant of any facts or be intellectually dishonest. I mean for God's sake between the dead people voting, the massive 4AM dumps of hundreds of thousands of biden votes in dem cities without even the down ballot races selected, the exclusion of observers in those cities (only one reason for that), the fact Trump could draw 50,000 in a rural area and joe couldn't fill a parking lot in a major city. The software and statistical anomalies in the voting data alone make the whole thing a joke.
How do you explain the many non-presidential elections on all levels won by the Republicans?SomeDude wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:17 amDo you really believe Biden-Kamala got 10M more votes than Obama in 2012? Biden did much worse with non-whites, worse in FL and Ohio, and basically every state and area outside of these major cities in the swing states where they kicked out all the observers.pmward wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:10 amWhy have these "facts" not made it into court? Oh that's right, because they aren't true and Trump would be tried for perjury if he submitted them. The moment these things get submitted and accepted into court we can discuss them. Until then, it's purely conjecture, your argument is laughably weak, and it has no legs at all to stand on. Accusation is not guilt. You need to prove guilt. Your argument does not prove guilt in any way. If/when there is evidence that proves guilt, I will agree with you. Until that point, sorry to tell you but nobody here that hasn't drank the Trump Kool-Aide (aka Tech and Don) takes your argument seriously. The real, legally submitted evidence (or lack thereof) is my opinion. Unless the evidence changes, my opinion doesn't change.SomeDude wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:39 pmMy theory on stuff like that is that lots of people all over the world believe the ends justify the means. They believe in the nobility of their cause so much that it doesn't matter what it takes to achieve it. I think those people are much more likely to identify as liberals or democrats because that group is all about achieving some social "good" (equality or whatever, nobody having their feelings hurt etc.) at ANY cost. Violence, fraud, theft, are all justifiable to get what they want. They see Trump as so evil for some reason that to them it's morally wrong NOT to commit fraud or violence to get him out.
The evidence of coordinated fraud is so obvious the only way to claim it doesn't exist is to be ignorant of any facts or be intellectually dishonest. I mean for God's sake between the dead people voting, the massive 4AM dumps of hundreds of thousands of biden votes in dem cities without even the down ballot races selected, the exclusion of observers in those cities (only one reason for that), the fact Trump could draw 50,000 in a rural area and joe couldn't fill a parking lot in a major city. The software and statistical anomalies in the voting data alone make the whole thing a joke.
Do you really believe the Biden-Harris vote totals in Philly, Detroit, Atl, Pittsburg are legitimate? Why would they kick out the republican observers if there was no funny business? Why would turn-out in those cities be completely disproportionate to anywhere else in the country? Why would there be hundreds of thousands of votes that show up late in massive batches that are 100% for Biden, and just have his name and none of the down ballot ticket selected?
This just scratches the surface. I'm hopeful the mountains of evidence they are gathering (which would probably take years normally to compile), will make it impossible for the Supremes to ignore like these state judges, and the "results" in these states will be thrown out.