Gyroscopic Investing

Desert wrote:

madbean2 wrote: You're right. I should check out my failing memory better before spouting off. Mark 16 does start with a brief resurrection story though the earliest manuscripts stop abruptly after verse 8 and the rest is considered a later addition, as most modern Bibles at least acknowledge in the footnotes.

But it doesn't have a birth narrative. It starts with Jesus' preaching and then we get to meet Mary in chapter 3.

3:21 When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”

and then a few verses later....

3:31 Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him.

Forget the part about Jesus' brothers and what it says about the Catholic belief in Mary's perpetual virginity, how is it that Mary can show up here in the first known gospel manuscript thinking Jesus is out of his mind? Isn't that the same Mary that was impregnated by the Holy Spirit,  took a trip down to Bethlehem to give birth receiving gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh from the kings of the Orient,  before fleeing to Egypt because Herod was trying to kill him, shepherds keeping watching over their flocks at night until a multitude of the heavenly host shone round about them,  etcetera, etcetera, according to both Matthew and Luke?

I actually like the parts in the Bible when Jesus's own family doubts him.  It's a lot to believe, even after all that Mary went through.

Those parts give us hope; there is hope for even the most skeptical of doubters.  Everyone abandoned Jesus at the cross - it had to be that way for Jesus to take on the sin of the world and take it to the grave.  Everyone is dead in their sin - DEAD.  Thanks be to God for Jesus' resurrection and the promise that all will be resurrected to stand and be judged - some will live forever in the presence of a glorious God, some not.

... Mountaineer

Buddha was asked, “What have you gained from meditation?” He replied, “Nothing! However,” Buddha said, “let me tell you what I lost: Anger, Anxiety, Depression, Insecurity, Fear of Old age and Death.”

MachineGhost wrote: Buddha was asked, “What have you gained from meditation?” He replied, “Nothing! However,” Buddha said, “let me tell you what I lost: Anger, Anxiety, Depression, Insecurity, Fear of Old age and Death.”

This brings up a super important point.  We are all born with Christ consciousness, Bhudda nature, whatever you want to call it*.  The process of growing spiritually is one of subtraction i.e.  subtracting things that are not us.  The problem is we are all very clever people and have never encountered anything before that works this way.  We want to understand it, learn it like you'd learn about a physics problem or how to make a cake.  It doesn't work that way.  It took me years to get this.  I'll do my best to post things that will point you in the right direction.  Your mind can not help you enjoy a sunset.  In fact if you are watching a sunset your mind likely will produce thoughts which will interfere with your ability to enjoy the sunset.  Lao Tzu says "the way is so simple that complicated minds cannot get it"

Meditation: there are many many kinds of meditation.  Many are literally spiritually valium i.e. they make you feel good for the time you are doing it and relax you.  In the sense that most people walk around tense, this can be helfpul.  However these kinds of meditation don't help you grow spiritually.  There is also a very popular form of meditation which would be wonderful if anyone could actuallly perform it.  Most people can't (through not fault of their own) and don't know they are not.  This can go on for decades.



*"All beings are from the beginning Bhuddas..." 

Ken introduced this as "The Lion's Roar".  I have a better translation somewhere at home, but here are two:

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/ ... _Zazen.htm

Benko wrote:

MachineGhost wrote: Buddha was asked, “What have you gained from meditation?” He replied, “Nothing! However,” Buddha said, “let me tell you what I lost: Anger, Anxiety, Depression, Insecurity, Fear of Old age and Death.”

This brings up a super important point.  We are all born with Christ consciousness, Bhudda nature, whatever you want to call it*. 

Can we at least spell BUDDHA correctly?

Desert wrote: I actually like the parts in the Bible when Jesus's own family doubts him.  It's a lot to believe, even after all that Mary went through.

Say what?

It says in Luke that she was visited by the angel Gabriel before being impregnated by the Holy Spirit. Where did she think the baby came from if she was doubting when Jesus started preaching?

This seems like a perfect example of different thought processes in believers and unbelievers.  I ask the rational question of what this says about a historical Jesus and the authenticity of the birth narratives in the later manuscripts. You and Mountaineer say it's a wonderful thing that gives hope to all those who doubt.

I'm thinking it's getting kind of pointless to even have these sorts of discussions though I suspect we will continue. A lot of people seem interested.

madbean2 wrote:

Desert wrote: I actually like the parts in the Bible when Jesus's own family doubts him.  It's a lot to believe, even after all that Mary went through.

Say what?

It says in Luke that she was visited by the angel Gabriel before being impregnated by the Holy Spirit. Where did she think the baby came from if she was doubting when Jesus started preaching?

This seems like a perfect example of different thought processes in believers and unbelievers.  I ask the rational question of what this says about a historical Jesus and the authenticity of the birth narratives in the later manuscripts. You and Mountaineer say it's a wonderful thing that gives hope to all those who doubt.

I'm thinking it's getting kind of pointless to even have the discussions though I suspect we will continue.

What would BUDDHA say? 

Oh, Grasshopper, you have so much to discover.

What would BUDDHA do?

Patience, Grasshopper, patience.  They will come to understand.

What would Jesus do?

He already has done it.  On the cross.  For all.  Forever. 

What would man do?

Resist the gift.

... Mountaineer

Mountaineer wrote:

madbean2 wrote:

Desert wrote: I actually like the parts in the Bible when Jesus's own family doubts him.  It's a lot to believe, even after all that Mary went through.

Say what?

It says in Luke that she was visited by the angel Gabriel before being impregnated by the Holy Spirit. Where did she think the baby came from if she was doubting when Jesus started preaching?

This seems like a perfect example of different thought processes in believers and unbelievers.  I ask the rational question of what this says about a historical Jesus and the authenticity of the birth narratives in the later manuscripts. You and Mountaineer say it's a wonderful thing that gives hope to all those who doubt.

I'm thinking it's getting kind of pointless to even have the discussions though I suspect we will continue.

What would BUDDHA say? 

Oh, Grasshopper, you have so much to discover.

What would BUDDHA do?

Patience, Grasshopper, patience.  They will come to understand.

What would Jesus do?

He already has done it.  On the cross.  For all.  Forever. 

What would man do?

Resist the gift.

... Mountaineer

Cute. Whatever it means. I am looking forward to the day when I don't have the compulsion to deconstruct Christianity in my own mind any more. I don't know why ex-Christians feel the need to do this but I think it is kind of like divers who need to decompress slowly before coming to the surface.

What is the deal with Buddha and the swastika?  I don't get it.

... Mountaineer

https://www.google.com/search?q=buddha+ ... =438&dpr=2

The swastika was a traditional Hindu symbol, I think. The Nazis appropriated it.

Desert wrote:

madbean2 wrote:

Desert wrote: I actually like the parts in the Bible when Jesus's own family doubts him.  It's a lot to believe, even after all that Mary went through.

Say what?

It says in Luke that she was visited by the angel Gabriel before being impregnated by the Holy Spirit. Where did she think the baby came from if she was doubting when Jesus started preaching?

This seems like a perfect example of different thought processes in believers and unbelievers.  I ask the rational question of what this says about a historical Jesus and the authenticity of the birth narratives in the later manuscripts. You and Mountaineer say it's a wonderful thing that gives hope to all those who doubt.

I'm thinking it's getting kind of pointless to even have these sorts of discussions though I suspect we will continue. A lot of people seem interested.

I think about it this way:  Humans have tended to disbelieve or forsake God throughout history.  The Israelites went and made a golden calf to worship, which sounds really ridiculous, until you compare that with modern humans.  We see Mary, even with all the information she received, doubting a bit that this son of hers was really God.  And now we have modern, civilized, advanced, sophisticated humans that have managed to convince themselves that the unimaginable complexity in this world just happened due to unguided natural processes.  We simply have a hard time believing without being hit over the head with the truth.  And unfortunately, sometimes, like children, we only really see clearly when confronted with pain in our lives.

In regards to the accuracy of the Israelite story of the golden calf and the wandering in the wilderness I won't bother going there for now.

The psychology of Mary's doubting about her son Jesus when he starts his ministry is another thing altogether if we are to believe the accounts in the gospels of Matthew and Luke (which are totally contradictory, BTW - pretty sure that's true even given my faulty memory).

The prophesied Son of God starts preaching and doing miracles and she doubts? After the angel Gabriel appeared to her and told her that the Holy thing that was born inside of her even though she was a virgin would be called the "Son of God" and he would "Save His People from their Sins" at a time when many people were expecting the messiah? Just where, in the darkness of her unbelief, could she have possibly believed that Jesus came from and how could she doubt when Jesus started preaching given all this? Any normal person would have jumped at the thought that all of those things were finally coming true.

(And she never told Jesus' brothers in all those years growing up that, "Oh Yes, your brother was born when I was a virgin and the Angel Gabriel told me he was the Son of God?)

Makes absolutely no sense to me.

madbean2 wrote:

Desert wrote:

madbean2 wrote: Say what?

It says in Luke that she was visited by the angel Gabriel before being impregnated by the Holy Spirit. Where did she think the baby came from if she was doubting when Jesus started preaching?

This seems like a perfect example of different thought processes in believers and unbelievers.  I ask the rational question of what this says about a historical Jesus and the authenticity of the birth narratives in the later manuscripts. You and Mountaineer say it's a wonderful thing that gives hope to all those who doubt.

I'm thinking it's getting kind of pointless to even have these sorts of discussions though I suspect we will continue. A lot of people seem interested.

I think about it this way:  Humans have tended to disbelieve or forsake God throughout history.  The Israelites went and made a golden calf to worship, which sounds really ridiculous, until you compare that with modern humans.  We see Mary, even with all the information she received, doubting a bit that this son of hers was really God.  And now we have modern, civilized, advanced, sophisticated humans that have managed to convince themselves that the unimaginable complexity in this world just happened due to unguided natural processes.  We simply have a hard time believing without being hit over the head with the truth.  And unfortunately, sometimes, like children, we only really see clearly when confronted with pain in our lives.

In regards to the accuracy of the Israelite story of the golden calf and the wandering in the wilderness I won't bother going there for now.

The psychology of Mary's doubting about her son Jesus when he starts his ministry is another thing altogether if we are to believe the accounts in the gospels of Matthew and Luke (which are totally contradictory, BTW - pretty sure that's true even given my faulty memory).

The prophesied Son of God starts preaching and doing miracles and she doubts? After the angel Gabriel appeared to her and told her that the Holy thing that was born inside of her even though she was a virgin would be called the "Son of God" and he would "Save His People from their Sins" at a time when many people were expecting the messiah? Just where, in the darkness of her unbelief, could she have possibly believed that Jesus came from and how could she doubt when Jesus started preaching given all this? Any normal person would have jumped at the thought that all of those things were finally coming true.

Makes no sense to me.

There were many years of inactivity by Jesus (according to what is in the Scriptures).  Who knows?  If I heard something fantastic about my yet unborn son and did not see anything happen for years (Jesus' ministry started in earnest when he was 30 or so?), I just maybe, might, maybe not believe in his special powers, being a sinful human that is born to fight with God.  And that is me.  Just think how moda would take it, no rock solid proof and all.  Maybe Mary really did think Jesus had a brick or two missing from the building and tried to protect him or their family from embarrassment. 

... Mountaineer

Desert wrote: Unfortunately, I have to disagree with the sentence bolded above.  In fact, my experience indicates that quite the opposite is true.

VERY interesting comment. Would love to know more.

madbean2 wrote: Makes absolutely no sense to me.

What makes no sense to me is a virgin giving birth.  Surprisingly, no one seems to harp on that little factoid.  It's like not being able to get pregnant if raped.

MachineGhost wrote:

madbean2 wrote: Makes absolutely no sense to me.

What makes no sense to me is a virgin giving birth.  Surprisingly, no one seems to harp on that little factoid.  It's like not being able to get pregnant if raped.

Oh, I don't know. I suspect there have been a lot of women who would have liked to claim virginity regardless of obviously being pregnant. It's just that no one would believe them!

MachineGhost wrote:

madbean2 wrote: Makes absolutely no sense to me.

What makes no sense to me is a virgin giving birth.  Surprisingly, no one seems to harp on that little factoid.  It's like not being able to get pregnant if raped.

Personally, I think the resurrection of Jesus has very strong evidence for happening with all the eye witnesses accounts.  The virgin birth has no external to Mary confirmation.  Both require faith to believe.  Same as the creation account requires faith to believe.  I think you either believe it all, that is believe that God's Word is what it says it is, or none.  Just like pregnancy - you either are or you are not - no in between wishy washy state.  If you don't believe in the miracles, the Scriptures become just another set of entertaining (maybe) stories and a pretty good self-help guide like most bookstores are full of.  And, why would anyone want a non-miraculeous God?  Just go to your local bar and self-medicate with friends while telling the latest "fish that got away" story.  If church is just the place to go hang out with friends on a Sunday morning and not where you go to receive the gifts of God, you can probably find better entertainment than a wannabe praise band and the latest "want to be revelant" preacher telling you how wonderful you will become if you follow his advice, and send in large quantities of money to him. 

... Mountaineer

Desert wrote: And now we have modern, civilized, advanced, sophisticated humans that have managed to convince themselves that the unimaginable complexity in this world just happened due to unguided natural processes.  We simply have a hard time believing without being hit over the head with the truth.  And unfortunately, sometimes, like children, we only really see clearly when confronted with pain in our lives.

Isn't "unimaginable complexity" relative? Given the pace of advancing human knowledge, why do we draw the line on this point and fall back on religion? What makes these unguided natural processes so much more unimaginably complex than anything else we're only just now starting to understand? And I'm sorry if I totally misread your statement, but what does any of that have to do with pain in our lives?

I think that sometimes people who are converted to Christianity don't actually believe any of it for certain when they first start out, but they want to believe it and they think that once they are converted they will start seeing and feeling the things that people told them about when they were trying to convert them.

The point above is not as dumb as it sounds, and we all do that with many things in life--i.e., we start off with faith and gradually the faith is shown to have been justified by the results that one gets from doing things like living a healthy lifestyle or getting more education, even though you might have started down those roads in the first place based mostly on faith, frequently when you were still a child.