Gyroscopic Investing

The Cove exposes the slaughter of more than 20,000 dolphins and porpoises off the coast of Japan every year, and how their meat, containing toxic levels of mercury, is sold as food in Japan and other parts of Asia, often labeled as whale meat. The majority of the world is not aware this is happening.

http://www.takepart.com/cove

That's a pretty powerful film.  I watched it a year or so ago.

Killing dolphins for food is sort of like taking a dog that knows how to read the newspaper and killing it for lunch.

There is an arbitrary line somewhere along the intelligence continuum that I think we as humans should mark and say "we shouldn't eat anything that can score above 'x' on an intelligence test."  I know that's the slipperiest kind of slippery slope, but it's weird to think of eating dolphins for the same reason that it's weird to think of eating a chimp.

If you're starving I can understand eating most anything, but in that film I swear some of those dolphins looked smarter than the fisherman who were slaughtering them.

How about refraining from eating animals that exhibit playfulness? Playfulness is one of the more easily observable signs of intelligence.

Dolphins are very playful creatures. So are most dogs and cats.

Cows, chickens, and fish, on the other hand... zero personality. They can't charm their way off of my dinner plate.

MediumTex wrote: That's a pretty powerful film.  I watched it a year or so ago.

I put it on hold at the library, but I'm not sure I can watch it.  Might get too upset.

MachineGhost wrote:

MediumTex wrote: That's a pretty powerful film.  I watched it a year or so ago.

I put it on hold at the library, but I'm not sure I can watch it.  Might get too upset.

No Netflix?

Tortoise wrote: Cows, chickens, and fish, on the other hand... zero personality. They can't charm their way off of my dinner plate.

Have seen playful cows. Definitely playful goats. Not sure I would recognize a playful fish or chicken, but I bet that similar behavior exists and we don't recognize it. Suspect that this criterion has a lot of bias toward that which appears most human.
But when you think about it, we invariably favor those which are most similar to us: family > friends/neighbors > same citizenship or race > humans > apes > higher order or "cute" mammals > other mammals > other vertebrates > invertebrates with 2 eyes, etc.
Where do you draw the line? Buddhists often speak of non-harming of all sentient beings.

BearBones wrote: Have seen playful cows.

Really? What does a cow look like when it's being playful? Any YouTube videos of that?

BearBones wrote: But when you think about it, we invariably favor those which are most similar to us: family > friends/neighbors > same citizenship or race > humans > apes > higher order or "cute" mammals > other mammals > other vertebrates > invertebrates with 2 eyes, etc.
Where do you draw the line? Buddhists often speak of non-harming of all sentient beings.

I guess it's a hard line for some people to draw, but realistically it has to be drawn somewhere. Billions (or is it trillions?) of bacteria live on our skin and inside our bodies. Merely taking a bath or having a bowel movement kills astronomical numbers of those single-celled organisms. And we inadvertently step on ants and other small insects, etc.

Maybe the key is never to intentionally kill another living thing. But then how does one eat? Even being a vegetarian involves killing plants, which some people speculate are actually sentient in their own unique way.

I was being partly facetious in my previous post; I'm really not that mean of a person My own spiritual view of eating is that the important thing is to be appreciative of all living things that have died in order for me to eat. In fact, I view that sense of appreciation as the basis of traditional prayers before meals.

If God created me, and if he wanted to discourage me from eating meat, wouldn't he have made meat taste horrible to me or make me sick or something? Instead, he evidently created me with taste buds that tell me meat tastes delicious. And it is very nutritious for my body as well. What a strange guy, that God is

Tortoise wrote:

BearBones wrote: Have seen playful cows.

Really? What does a cow look like when it's being playful? Any YouTube videos of that?

Not sure if this counts, but it cracked me up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-hWFsM_ ... re=related

BearBones wrote:

Tortoise wrote:

BearBones wrote: Have seen playful cows.

Really? What does a cow look like when it's being playful? Any YouTube videos of that?

Not sure if this counts, but it cracked me up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-hWFsM_ ... re=related

Here is Herbie the Cow playing with a ball.

Herbie looks like a dog in a cow's body.

http://youtu.be/GQvukhDinII

Animals are more libertarian than humans.

http://wellcometrust.wordpress.com/2012 ... e-animals/

MediumTex wrote: Here is Herbie the Cow playing with a ball.

Herbie looks like a dog in a cow's body.

http://youtu.be/GQvukhDinII

LOL. You just saved a life, MT. I cancelled my trip to Shake Shack. Not joking.

dualstow wrote:

MediumTex wrote: Here is Herbie the Cow playing with a ball.

Herbie looks like a dog in a cow's body.

http://youtu.be/GQvukhDinII

LOL. You just saved a life, MT. I cancelled my trip to Shake Shack. Not joking.

Herbie is saving his race from slaughter, one YouTube view at a time.

MediumTex wrote: Here is Herbie the Cow playing with a ball...

http://youtu.be/GQvukhDinII

The best thing I have seen all day! Totally cracked me up. Thanks.

Where to draw the line on the consumption of animals is incredibly subjective and personal.  This should never be controlled by any governmental body because it's a slippery slope to having your dietary habits controlled by PETA.

I personally draw the line at animals that show evidence of being self aware.  Anything else is game.  For example, I personally oppose the killing of dolphins and whales, but only think the international community should step in and stop it to prevent populations from dropping below sustainable levels.  Even in this case it's only because they represent a truly global population and one nation/people shouldn't be wiping them out (perfect example is bluefin tuna).

RuralEngineer wrote: Where to draw the line on the consumption of animals is incredibly subjective and personal.  This should never be controlled by any governmental body because it's a slippery slope to having your dietary habits controlled by PETA.

Amen to that.

I personally draw the line at animals that show evidence of being self aware.  Anything else is game.

So...in other words, you only eat insects? Or you're a pescetarian? I hate that octopi (and now squid) have been shown to be so intelligent. They're both quite tasty. But I eat them less often than I used to, and only for ethical reasons.

dualstow wrote:

RuralEngineer wrote: Where to draw the line on the consumption of animals is incredibly subjective and personal.  This should never be controlled by any governmental body because it's a slippery slope to having your dietary habits controlled by PETA.

Amen to that.

I personally draw the line at animals that show evidence of being self aware.  Anything else is game.

So...in other words, you only eat insects? Or you're a pescetarian? I hate that octopi (and now squid) have been shown to be so intelligent. They're both quite tasty. But I eat them less often than I used to, and only for ethical reasons.

I forgot to qualify that the animals must both be self aware and fast enough to evade me.  Being smart enough not to take the piece of food on the shiny metal hook helps too.

EDIT: Squid pass the mirror test?

RuralEngineer wrote: I forgot to qualify that the animals must both be self aware and fast enough to evade me.  Being smart enough not to take the piece of food on the shiny metal hook helps too.

EDIT: Squid pass the mirror test?

I don't know, but they're quite intelligent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cephalopod_intelligence
http://www.sciencedaily.com/articles/c/ ... igence.htm

RuralEngineer wrote: Where to draw the line on the consumption of animals is incredibly subjective and personal...

I personally draw the line at animals that show evidence of being self aware.  Anything else is game...

Good a line as any, I guess. But it is still choosing that which we most closely identify with being human-like, right? What if others chose to draw the line at blue eyes and blond hair? Should government stay out of that?

BearBones wrote:

RuralEngineer wrote: Where to draw the line on the consumption of animals is incredibly subjective and personal...

I personally draw the line at animals that show evidence of being self aware.  Anything else is game...

Good a line as any, I guess. But it is still choosing that which we most closely identify with being human-like, right? What if others chose to draw the line at blue eyes and blond hair? Should government stay out of that?

It probably depends on what you want to eat.  I'm okay with the government saying no to Soylent Green.

RuralEngineer wrote: I forgot to qualify that the animals must both be self aware and fast enough to evade me.  Being smart enough not to take the piece of food on the shiny metal hook helps too.

EDIT: Squid pass the mirror test?

Humans deliberately exterminated other self-aware humans numbering in the millions in the last century. Seems kind of strange to expect the species to show compassion to another species when they have not yet learned to show it to their own.

notsheigetz wrote:

RuralEngineer wrote: I forgot to qualify that the animals must both be self aware and fast enough to evade me.  Being smart enough not to take the piece of food on the shiny metal hook helps too.

EDIT: Squid pass the mirror test?

Humans deliberately exterminated other self-aware humans numbering in the millions in the last century. Seems kind of strange to expect the species to show compassion to another species when they have not yet learned to show it to their own.

True, and they didn't even bother to eat them. Well, mostly.

dualstow wrote:

notsheigetz wrote:

RuralEngineer wrote: I forgot to qualify that the animals must both be self aware and fast enough to evade me.  Being smart enough not to take the piece of food on the shiny metal hook helps too.

EDIT: Squid pass the mirror test?

Humans deliberately exterminated other self-aware humans numbering in the millions in the last century. Seems kind of strange to expect the species to show compassion to another species when they have not yet learned to show it to their own.

True, and they didn't even bother to eat them. Well, mostly.

Yeah, I remember that movie where the plane crashed in the Andies and they had to eat human flesh. They could have at least told us whether it tasted like chicken or not.

notsheigetz wrote:

dualstow wrote:

notsheigetz wrote: Humans deliberately exterminated other self-aware humans numbering in the millions in the last century. Seems kind of strange to expect the species to show compassion to another species when they have not yet learned to show it to their own.

True, and they didn't even bother to eat them. Well, mostly.

Yeah, I remember that movie where the plane crashed in the Andies and they had to eat human flesh. They could have at least told us whether it tasted like chicken or not.

Alive. Letterman joked that what most people don't know is that the survivors had a choice between the flesh of their teammates and the regular airplane food.

I think the definining characteristic ought be as to whether or not we would treat such animals as pets.  If they are pet worthy, they we should treat them with the same accord as we do the elderly and prisoners, i.e. not eat them.

MachineGhost wrote: I think the definining characteristic ought be as to whether or not we would treat such animals as pets.  If they are pet worthy, they we should treat them with the same accord as we do the elderly and prisoners, i.e. not eat them.

It's a nice idea, but it presents a conundrum. I love my burgers and my humanely raised grass fed steaks, but Herbie (in MT's linked video) seems pretty pet-worthy to me. Pigs are intelligent and pet-worthy, too, while simultaneously being fantastically delicious.

My own solution is to eat less of them than I used to, and to vow to switch to DuPont beef and bacon when it's invented. Half-hearted, I know, but there it is. That's all I'm willing to offer.