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Three Reasons Gold Will Go to $800: RBC Strategist

Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:26 am
by Coffee
[Oh, Crystal Ball... Crystal Ball...]

When you're right, you're right, and Edward Lashinski of RBC Capital Markets was right on when he predicted that gold would go to $1,225. The yellow metal hit his bearish year-end price target in Wednesday trading. So where does the director of global strategy and execution for RBC's Futures Group see gold going next?

"I believe that most of the headwinds that were present remain, so I believe ultimately we could go to $800 to $900 an ounce," he said on Thursday's "Futures Now."

He then went on to outline the three reasons that gold could lose another third of its price.


Deadpoet88 | Flickr Open | Getty Images
One: Rising Rates Will Crush Gold

Lashinski said that "a large part" of the weakness in gold is due to the Fed's "changing interest rate expectations."

In general, as interest rates rise, traders lose interest in gold, because gold yields nothing. And while the difference between a yield of 0 percent and of 0.53 percent (the low the five-year Treasury made last July) is pretty negligible, the difference between 0 percent and the 5 percent that five-year Treasurys could yield (a level we exceeded in 2006 and 2007) is highly significant.

If the Fed exits the bond market, and yields begin to rise even higher than they have already, gold could look much less worthwhile.

Two: The Fed Will Reduce the Supply of Money

Along with the rise in rates, Lashinski predicted a change in "the supply of dollars," which is "associated with the changing stance of QE in terms of the Fed balance sheet."

A big reason people own gold is to hedge against inflation. And as the Federal Reserve embarked on quantitative easing, many expected inflation to be the result, leading people to buy into gold. Unfortunately for those gold bulls, the massive inflation warned about never came to pass.

As the Fed actually ends the program, Lashinski expects gold's losses to accelerate. And if that exit causes deflation, gold priced in dollars will look like an unbelievably bad place to park money. After all, as the value of each dollar rises, it will take fewer of them to buy gold, making the gold price cheaper. At that point, it would be much better to keep dollars under the mattress than use them to buy gold.

Three: Emerging Markets Will Become a Headwind

Emerging markets have provided gold with a significant boost over the past few years, Lashinski said. "The demand from China and from others" has been "one of the primary supports for the gold market."

But emerging markets appear to be weakening. For example, the iShares MSCI Emerging Markets Index has fallen some 14 percent this year.

Those markets, no longer a tailwind, will actually become a headwind, Lashinski said. "The actual growth of the emerging markets space being curtailed also will be mitigant to the price of gold," he added.

All in all, between the Fed and emerging markets, Lashinski sees another $300 to $400 of downside before the carnage in gold is over.

Re: Three Reasons Gold Will Go to $800: RBC Strategist

Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:44 am
by MediumTex
Coffee wrote: All in all, between the Fed and emerging markets, Lashinski sees another $300 to $400 of downside before the carnage in gold is over.
And what happens when the gold carnage is over?

I guess that will be in the next report.

I wonder if he knows who will win on the next season of Survivor.  It would be cool if he did a report on that.

Re: Three Reasons Gold Will Go to $800: RBC Strategist

Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:31 am
by Reub
That's easy, MT. When the carnage is over there will be no more carnage. :)

Re: Three Reasons Gold Will Go to $800: RBC Strategist

Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:40 am
by buddtholomew
Coffee wrote: [Oh, Crystal Ball... Crystal Ball...]

When you're right, you're right, and Edward Lashinski of RBC Capital Markets was right on when he predicted that gold would go to $1,225. The yellow metal hit his bearish year-end price target in Wednesday trading. So where does the director of global strategy and execution for RBC's Futures Group see gold going next?

"I believe that most of the headwinds that were present remain, so I believe ultimately we could go to $800 to $900 an ounce," he said on Thursday's "Futures Now."

He then went on to outline the three reasons that gold could lose another third of its price.


Deadpoet88 | Flickr Open | Getty Images
One: Rising Rates Will Crush Gold

Lashinski said that "a large part" of the weakness in gold is due to the Fed's "changing interest rate expectations."

In general, as interest rates rise, traders lose interest in gold, because gold yields nothing. And while the difference between a yield of 0 percent and of 0.53 percent (the low the five-year Treasury made last July) is pretty negligible, the difference between 0 percent and the 5 percent that five-year Treasurys could yield (a level we exceeded in 2006 and 2007) is highly significant.

If the Fed exits the bond market, and yields begin to rise even higher than they have already, gold could look much less worthwhile.

Two: The Fed Will Reduce the Supply of Money

Along with the rise in rates, Lashinski predicted a change in "the supply of dollars," which is "associated with the changing stance of QE in terms of the Fed balance sheet."

A big reason people own gold is to hedge against inflation. And as the Federal Reserve embarked on quantitative easing, many expected inflation to be the result, leading people to buy into gold. Unfortunately for those gold bulls, the massive inflation warned about never came to pass.

As the Fed actually ends the program, Lashinski expects gold's losses to accelerate. And if that exit causes deflation, gold priced in dollars will look like an unbelievably bad place to park money. After all, as the value of each dollar rises, it will take fewer of them to buy gold, making the gold price cheaper. At that point, it would be much better to keep dollars under the mattress than use them to buy gold.

Three: Emerging Markets Will Become a Headwind

Emerging markets have provided gold with a significant boost over the past few years, Lashinski said. "The demand from China and from others" has been "one of the primary supports for the gold market."

But emerging markets appear to be weakening. For example, the iShares MSCI Emerging Markets Index has fallen some 14 percent this year.

Those markets, no longer a tailwind, will actually become a headwind, Lashinski said. "The actual growth of the emerging markets space being curtailed also will be mitigant to the price of gold," he added.

All in all, between the Fed and emerging markets, Lashinski sees another $300 to $400 of downside before the carnage in gold is over.
Lashinski can turn in his notice and begin his writing career. It doesn't matter whether his next predictions are wrong, he was right once and that is 100% more than any one else who predicted gold at 2000.

Re: Three Reasons Gold Will Go to $800: RBC Strategist

Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:57 pm
by MediumTex
Reub wrote: That's easy, MT. When the carnage is over there will be no more carnage. :)
So that means buy gold when it reaches $800, right?

What if it only goes down to $900, though?

Re: Three Reasons Gold Will Go to $800: RBC Strategist

Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:10 pm
by murphy_p_t
regarding points 1 & 2...IF those come to pass, his thesis may be correct.

I would put the likelihood of 1 & 2 occuring (not just jawboning) 2b < 1%

Re: Three Reasons Gold Will Go to $800: RBC Strategist

Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:23 pm
by annieB
So now he is making four predictions.
5% on the five year treasury.

Re: Three Reasons Gold Will Go to $800: RBC Strategist

Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:23 pm
by Libertarian666
Right, and we know about the gold crash that happened when interest rates went up in the 1970's!
Oh, wait...

Re: Three Reasons Gold Will Go to $800: RBC Strategist

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:44 pm
by Austen Heller
I wonder if the cost of production would help to stabilize the gold price if it did indeed drop by another $300-400.  The miners would slow down production at that price level, wouldn't they?

This article indicates that current cost of production is around $941/ounce:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-02-2 ... ities.html

New gold reserves are being mined at a rate of 2600 metric tons per year, which is added to the 160,000 metric tons of gold already above ground, resulting in an per annum increase of 1.6%:
http://www.bullionvault.com/guide/gold/Why-gold

I'm not sure that taking away the 1.6% of new gold would make much difference in the price, but maybe this would provide some headwinds to further price drop past the $941 level.

I like the concept of the Permanent Portfolio, but in practice, I have found that I tend to trade in and out of the investments based on price levels.  For instance, 3% yields on the long term treasuries put me on the sidelines, since the risk/reward was no good for me.  Likewise, I have been bit light on gold for some time now since it was trading up in the $1600-1700 area, but am slowly increasing exposure at the current levels.  At the $800-900 level, I think the risk/return is pretty good especially if there is a price floor provided by the miners decreasing production.

Re: Three Reasons Gold Will Go to $800: RBC Strategist

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:25 pm
by buddtholomew
Of course you "knew" that gold at 16-1700 was too high and the 30-year yield below 3% was too low. So, you lowered your gold allocation to some percentage and did not have any long-term treasury exposure. What was your exposure to equities and cash? Are you a PP investor or trader that dabbles in equities, gold and treasuries?

Re: Three Reasons Gold Will Go to $800: RBC Strategist

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:55 pm
by Austen Heller
buddtholomew wrote: Of course you "knew" that gold at 16-1700 was too high and the 30-year yield below 3% was too low. So, you lowered your gold allocation to some percentage and did not have any long-term treasury exposure. What was your exposure to equities and cash? Are you a PP investor or trader that dabbles in equities, gold and treasuries?
I certainly did not "know", I perceived extreme valuations, so I exited my positions; honestly, this probably only works out in my favor half the time.  You can call me a trader, since I am definitely not running a conventional PP at this point, though I do enjoy following the posts on this forum.  I just don't have the stones to maintain the 4x25 portfolio through thick & thin like most of you, but y'all probably sleep better at night than me.

The point of my above post was to indicate that due to the cost of production for the miners, I hypothesize that a gold price of $800-900 would be another extreme valuation, and gold would be a strong buy.

Re: Three Reasons Gold Will Go to $800: RBC Strategist

Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:56 am
by Pointedstick
Austen Heller wrote: I certainly did not "know", I perceived extreme valuations, so I exited my positions; honestly, this probably only works out in my favor half the time.  You can call me a trader, since I am definitely not running a conventional PP at this point, though I do enjoy following the posts on this forum.  I just don't have the stones to maintain the 4x25 portfolio through thick & thin like most of you, but y'all probably sleep better at night than me.
This is certainly true for me. I'm going through a lot right now but it's been a huge weight off my shoulders not to have to worry about losing all my money on top of everything else. This recent decline is nothing compared to 2008...