Gyroscopic Investing

Hey, I need some help thinking through my options in this situation.  We just moved into a new apartment, which is much cheaper than our previous one.  This was an attempt to save money.

Soon after we moved in, there was a noticeable smell of gas in the bathroom.  The gas guy came out and used his instrument to confirm there was gas in the room.  He then turned off the gas in our unit, and watched the meter.  It did not move.  So turned off the gas in the unit above ours, and watched both meters.

At that point one or both of the meters moved, suggesting the gas was leaking.  I do not know all the specifics of what was said at the time, because I was not there personally.  At that point the property manager had somebody replace a pipe, which the gas guy had identified as the problem.

...

Since then, unfortunately, there has been an intermittent odor of gas in the bathroom.  It seems to build up, when the door is closed (usually during the night).  For the past few days we have opened the bathroom door in the morning, to be greeted with the smell of gas, which then dissipates.

On Friday I had the gas guy come out again, to check for leaks yet again.  However this time I think the gas had dissipated from the bathroom before he could use his instrument.  He did turn off the as again, and look at the meter (nothing with the other apartment though).  The meter did not move, though.

...

I have told the property manager about this, and he has offered the theory that the gas smell is something that has built up from the previous leak.  This is not exactly a reassuring theory in itself, since it entails gas building up in some internal space between apartments.  Beside that, the theory doesn't fit with the observation that the smell is intermittent, and seems to accumulate over time.

For the moment, the problem persists.  This morning the smell was not there, but then showed up later in the day.  I am thinking about calling the gas guy out again, and demanding that he turn off the gas in the unit above, before checking the meters.  I am also wondering about my options as far as breaking the lease.  Does anyone have experience with gas problems, or with breaking leases due to landlord negligence?  Thanks.

I think a simple natural gas detector can be bought pretty cheaply. Maybe you should buy one for the bathroom. If it goes off, you have proof for your landlord and the gas company.

Since this is the bathroom, it's also possible that what you're smelling is sewer gas, which can also have a rotten egg smell. This could be caused by leaks in waste pipes, or try traps, or improperly-installed toilets. But it's probably still gas, since you know that was a recent problem.

I agree with MangoMan; you need to insist that they figure this out. One of the (supposed) advantages of living in an apartment is that other people are supposed to take care of things like this. Make sure they do!

MangoMan wrote: What about the unit next door [common wall]?

You don't want to leave that door closed all night, accumulating the gas in a small space like the bathroom where an explosion could be deadly.

Definitely call the gas company again and insist they determine the source of the leak. If you know the approximate time they are coming, maybe close the door 2 hours before hand to intensify the smell.

The likelihood of the smell being due to residual buildup in the walls or ceiling is not high, IMO, but I am hardly an expert. Call someone who is, asap.

I had not thought about the adjacent unit.  I am not clear on the physical relationship of the units, but I assume the gas guy had some reason for checking the above unit.  Thanks for mentioning it.

I have been shutting the bathroom door as a kind of experiment, to see if the smell still builds up or not.  I can see why it would be unwise, however.  I feel trapped in this situation, because it is as if I am obliged to offer others proof that I am not crazy, and that there is really gas in there.  Thanks for the suggestions.

madbean wrote: I think a simple natural gas detector can be bought pretty cheaply. Maybe you should buy one for the bathroom. If it goes off, you have proof for your landlord and the gas company.

Yes, it had occurred to me to buy such a thing, but I assumed it would be expensive.  The device the gas guy had with him was almost twice the size of the typical Fluke multimeter, and it had a long probe on it.  I will check online retail prices, though.  Thanks for the advice.

MangoMan wrote:

Pointedstick wrote: Since this is the bathroom, it's also possible that what you're smelling is sewer gas, which can also have a rotten egg smell. This could be caused by leaks in waste pipes, or try traps, or improperly-installed toilets. But it's probably still gas, since you know that was a recent problem.

I agree with MangoMan; you need to insist that they figure this out. One of the (supposed) advantages of living in an apartment is that other people are supposed to take care of things like this. Make sure they do!

Sewer gas stinks, but it is a distinctly different smell. Plus, the gas co already confirmed it was natural gas the first time out.

Depending on what walls the gas lines run through, the adjacent unit is probably just as likely as the one above you.

Since the problem could be in any one of the neighboring apartments (although the above one is most likely, since it already had a leak) the property manager needs to give the gas company access to all the units.  This may not be so easy to arrange.  I texted him, telling him he needs to let the gas guy into whichever of the apartments, if the intermittent gas smell persists in our bathroom.

I think I am going to have to continue doing my experiments, closing the door at times, and smelling.  I won't do it overnight though.  I did check online for gas detectors.  The cheapest seems to be $30.00.  I might be able to rent one at Home Depot.

So far, it sounds like you've done all the right things. I don't know what you should do, but I know that if were me, I would seriously consider breaking the lease if they don't figure this out and fix it fast. Gas is muy dangeroso.

Funny, last night I had to put up with a smoky smell in the house, which is almost certainly due to neighbors' chimneys. Some of the other neighbors smell it, too. I just did a massive renovation and we're not leaving. I'll just have to get a powerful air purifier to run in winter, right next to my face. I'm glad the wife is out of town and not subjected to this.

Lowe wrote:

MangoMan wrote:

Pointedstick wrote: Since this is the bathroom, it's also possible that what you're smelling is sewer gas, which can also have a rotten egg smell. This could be caused by leaks in waste pipes, or try traps, or improperly-installed toilets. But it's probably still gas, since you know that was a recent problem.

I agree with MangoMan; you need to insist that they figure this out. One of the (supposed) advantages of living in an apartment is that other people are supposed to take care of things like this. Make sure they do!

Sewer gas stinks, but it is a distinctly different smell. Plus, the gas co already confirmed it was natural gas the first time out.

Depending on what walls the gas lines run through, the adjacent unit is probably just as likely as the one above you.

Since the problem could be in any one of the neighboring apartments (although the above one is most likely, since it already had a leak) the property manager needs to give the gas company access to all the units.  This may not be so easy to arrange.  I texted him, telling him he needs to let the gas guy into whichever of the apartments, if the intermittent gas smell persists in our bathroom.

I think I am going to have to continue doing my experiments, closing the door at times, and smelling.  I won't do it overnight though.  I did check online for gas detectors.  The cheapest seems to be $30.00.  I might be able to rent one at Home Depot.

I think I'd probably spend the $30 before I broke the lease, otherwise it's your landlord's testimony versus what your nose is telling you. I've watched Judge Judy enough times to know she would probably tend to believe you over the landlord if you had a receipt for the gas detector.

And on the other hand, if it doesn't detect any gas you can stop worrying about it.

dualstow wrote: So far, it sounds like you've done all the right things. I don't know what you should do, but I know that if were me, I would seriously consider breaking the lease if they don't figure this out and fix it fast. Gas is muy dangeroso.

Funny, last night I had to put up with a smoky smell in the house, which is almost certainly due to neighbors' chimneys. Some of the other neighbors smell it, too. I just did a massive renovation and we're not leaving. I'll just have to get a powerful air purifier to run in winter, right next to my face. I'm glad the wife is out of town and not subjected to this.

I am hoping that the manager's theory of lingering gas smell is correct.  Maybe he has had experience with this kind of thing, but there's no telling.  I only met him a month ago or so.  He manages at least one other small property than this one, and he is a licensed realtor.

We recently moved from a much larger and nicer building, and I am hoping I made the right decision moving to a smaller property for the sake of a smaller rent check.  It sounds like you are committed to your current place, and me not so much.  But I know it would be a huge hassle to get out of here.  I think I would rather sell all our stuff than move any of it again.

madbean wrote:

Lowe wrote:

MangoMan wrote: Sewer gas stinks, but it is a distinctly different smell. Plus, the gas co already confirmed it was natural gas the first time out.

Depending on what walls the gas lines run through, the adjacent unit is probably just as likely as the one above you.

Since the problem could be in any one of the neighboring apartments (although the above one is most likely, since it already had a leak) the property manager needs to give the gas company access to all the units.  This may not be so easy to arrange.  I texted him, telling him he needs to let the gas guy into whichever of the apartments, if the intermittent gas smell persists in our bathroom.

I think I am going to have to continue doing my experiments, closing the door at times, and smelling.  I won't do it overnight though.  I did check online for gas detectors.  The cheapest seems to be $30.00.  I might be able to rent one at Home Depot.

I think I'd probably spend the $30 before I broke the lease, otherwise it's your landlord's testimony versus what your nose is telling you. I've watched Judge Judy enough times to know she would probably tend to believe you over the landlord if you had a receipt for the gas detector.

And on the other hand, if it doesn't detect any gas you can stop worrying about it.

Yes, my nose is not the greatest sensing device in creation.  Just to be sure there was no lingering scent left in the bathroom itself, we washed and dried all the towels and hand-towels, and the bath mat.  This morning, though, the smell had returned briefly.

It is gone right now, but I think I will buy a small natural gas detector from Home Depot.  There is one in my area, and there is a $25 detector in stock there.

Lowe wrote:   I think I would rather sell all our stuff than move any of it again.

I hear you on that. I kept wishing that a sinkhole would swallow everything after I ended up moving a lot of our stuff on foot. (Sinkhole didn't happen, so I had to move the rest). And here I am agonizing every day over the few items that got lost, simply because I don't yet know the extent of what's lost. Sometimes I think it would be better to start over.

you might want to look into the location of your, and your neighbors water heaters as well, when you are looking for gas smells, work the order of likelihood for a leak tends to be
1 flex line between hard lines and appliances
2 shut off valves
3 pilot light problems
4 buried hard lines
5 hard lines in walls (not likely but it can happen)

where ever it is, the owner is responsible for getting it fixed... just prey your building doesn't have buried lines, an underground/under cement leak is costly and not something any landlord or tenant wants to deal with..

I think the "lingering gas smell" theory is a load of hooey that can roughly be translated as property manager-speak for "Screw off."  The property managers in my building have a similar mindset.  The only approach that works with them involves either a lawyer or a phone call to the Dept of Buildings.  Putting up with the problem is what happens 90% of the time, but it's not an option here.

I got to see a similar process in action when our building (built 1926) was undergoing a hallway remodel.  The contractors were breaking old ceiling soffits and removing old wallpaper with no lead abatement measures in place.  The property managers & board director proclaimed that there was no reason to be concerned.  A family with 2 small children bought a lead test kit and ran several tests in different places in the hallways and nearly all were positive.  They called the city, posted a warning to residents in the mailroom, and eventually wrote a letter threatening legal action.  That finally resulted in a snarky letter to residents from the board and more reasonable containment procedures.  For my part, I duct taped my door and kept the windows open & fans going the whole time.

I agree with dualstow:  if your property manager doesn't respond appropriately, you are best off getting out of there, as painful as it is.  Unfortunately there's probably a reason why the place was cheap.  It may be the gas leak now, but next month it may be a water leak, then the heater breaking, then a roach infestation, etc.  Definitely call the gas company again and keep the property manager informed.  Also keep a diary of when you smell the gas vs when you're home.  Sensor is a nice touch also...I was curious so I checked on Amazon and there's one for $17.

Good luck!

See, this is the kind of thing people need to keep in mind when "rent vs buy" comparisons come up. On the one hand, if it's your own place, you'd be on the hook for the repair work. On the other hand, you can make sure it gets done right without some knucklehead letting gas build up in your bathroom or dumping lead paint into common areas. Jeez, man. We all have stories like this. For example:

The last apartment I lived in, pigeons started roosting in the (naturally open, uninsulated) vented cathedral ceiling right above my place. They made a lot of noise and shat all over my balcony. It was disgusting. I complained to the management and what did they do? Eventually, they had the maintenance man staple wire mesh grilles in place to prevent the pigeons from getting in... but by that point, there was a baby pigeon living up there that the parents were cut off from. So for a day, there was endless flapping and screeching as the traumatized parents and baby tried to reach one another. Finally I removed the grille to end the racket, but of course then there were still pigeons making noise in the ceiling and shitting on my balcony. The management was non-responsive; as far as they were concerned; they had taken care of the problem. So I got a BB gun and shot the pigeons. They survived, flew away, and never came back. Problem solved.

Personally, I much prefer to deal with these kinds of hassles myself or with my own money rather than depending on others. One of the major perks of home ownership in my book is being able to take responsibility for problems and maintenance issues rather than relying on salaried third parties not paid by the job who don't give a crap.

WiseOne wrote: I think the "lingering gas smell" theory is a load of hooey that can roughly be translated as property manager-speak for "Screw off."  The property managers in my building have a similar mindset.  The only approach that works with them involves either a lawyer or a phone call to the Dept of Buildings.  Putting up with the problem is what happens 90% of the time, but it's not an option here.

i agree the lingering smell theory is crap, and they do need to look into it in a reasonable time!!! but before jumping into full frontal assault mode it is worth taking a "more flies with honey" approach to getting a resolution. landlords see tenants with imaginary problems and watch them fly off the handle at the smallest delay in getting them addressed, i do have some sympathy for the large number of truly ridicules accusations and requests landlords and apt managers get... that being said your problem is real and your concerns are legitimate, if polite concerned requests get blown off or ignored then the gas company can be your allie (an apartment with a measured leak might be considered uninhabitable) and if it is not fixed having proof of it can give you some good leverage.

Pointedstick wrote: So I got a BB gun and shot the pigeons. They survived, flew away, and never came back. Problem solved.

You meanie!!!

MachineGhost wrote:

Pointedstick wrote: So I got a BB gun and shot the pigeons. They survived, flew away, and never came back. Problem solved.

You meanie!!!

Reality is cruel to the bleeding hearts.

Pointedstick wrote:

MachineGhost wrote:

Pointedstick wrote: So I got a BB gun and shot the pigeons. They survived, flew away, and never came back. Problem solved.

You meanie!!!

Reality is cruel to the bleeding hearts.

PS, I expect you are a member of PETA (People Eating Tasty Animals). 

You missed an opportunity for some good eats.  http://honest-food.net/wild-game/dove-pigeon-recipes/

... Mountaineer

Mountaineer wrote:

Pointedstick wrote:

MachineGhost wrote: You meanie!!!

Reality is cruel to the bleeding hearts.

PS, I expect you are a member of PETA (People Eating Tasty Animals). 

You missed an opportunity for some good eats.  http://honest-food.net/wild-game/dove-pigeon-recipes/

... Mountaineer

No way, city pigeons are filthy animals! If I had been out in the country though, it would have been my .22 instead of the BB gun for sure.

ERE != White Trash. 

l82start wrote: you might want to look into the location of your, and your neighbors water heaters as well, when we look for gas smells in the complex where i work the order of likelihood for a leak tends to be
1 flex line between hard lines and appliances
2 shut off valves
3 pilot light problems
4 buried hard lines
5 hard lines in walls (not likely but it can happen)

where ever it is, the owner is responsible for getting it fixed... just prey your building doesn't have buried lines, an underground/under cement leak is costly and not something any landlord or tenant wants to deal with..

We have not had any problems with the stove, that I can tell.  So I do not think it is anything related to the pilot lights.

The smell might have faded somewhat, by now.  My girlfriend tends to think it may not be a big issue, but I am not sure what to think.  It still shows up only occasionally.  Always just in the bathroom.

The property manager told me a few days ago that the gas guy, on his initial visit, did check all the units that are connected to the same (main) gas line.  Apparently he only found a leak in the unit above ours.  I think it was one of the flex lines, but I am not 100% on that.

WiseOne wrote: I think the "lingering gas smell" theory is a load of hooey that can roughly be translated as property manager-speak for "Screw off."  The property managers in my building have a similar mindset.  The only approach that works with them involves either a lawyer or a phone call to the Dept of Buildings.  Putting up with the problem is what happens 90% of the time, but it's not an option here.

I got to see a similar process in action when our building (built 1926) was undergoing a hallway remodel.  The contractors were breaking old ceiling soffits and removing old wallpaper with no lead abatement measures in place.  The property managers & board director proclaimed that there was no reason to be concerned.  A family with 2 small children bought a lead test kit and ran several tests in different places in the hallways and nearly all were positive.  They called the city, posted a warning to residents in the mailroom, and eventually wrote a letter threatening legal action.  That finally resulted in a snarky letter to residents from the board and more reasonable containment procedures.  For my part, I duct taped my door and kept the windows open & fans going the whole time.

I agree with dualstow:  if your property manager doesn't respond appropriately, you are best off getting out of there, as painful as it is.  Unfortunately there's probably a reason why the place was cheap.  It may be the gas leak now, but next month it may be a water leak, then the heater breaking, then a roach infestation, etc.  Definitely call the gas company again and keep the property manager informed.  Also keep a diary of when you smell the gas vs when you're home.  Sensor is a nice touch also...I was curious so I checked on Amazon and there's one for $17.

Good luck!

I found a detector for $25 at Home Depot, and brought it home a few days ago.  I tried walking around in the bathroom with it, but did not get any hits.  After that we put it up next to the oven, while releasing gas purposefully.  It only detected something when it was right on top of the "leak."  So I am not sure the device is much use for what I have in mind.

I sort of figured that the property manager would make up whatever story he had to, to make this not his problem.  I'm not sure what to make of it, though.  I can't see breaking the lease unless this persists for some time.

If it is really a situation where you can't prove it, you don't want to break the lease, the smell is intermittent, you don't want to/can't pay for the fix yourself, you're sure it's not sewer gas...

Just maintain positive pressure in the bathroom.  Put a fan in the window or door.

Keep thinking about your next move.

A gas leak is scary as hell.  But in reality, if it isn't large enough to declare with certainty, a fan will cover you until you have figured out your priorities/finances enough to move on.

Sometimes a duct tape solution is good enough while you work through the bigger issues.

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