Gyroscopic Investing

/rant

I am sick of tipping.

I wish we could just be done with it and price it all in.

I feel like everywhere I go now has a place for a tip that just makes me feel awkward.

Clark Howard brought it up not long ago and it struck home with me:

http://www.clarkhoward.com/clark-strugg ... guidelines

I also saw someone mention Waffle House in the cash thread. That is a place that needs to adopt counter service with no tips and I think the business would double.

Yes please. You know what will end tipping once and for all? Replacing the tipees with machines. You won't tip the touchscreen you order your food on.

Even if you aren't expected to tip, sometimes working with a machine is much easier.  I love the expanded capabilities of ATM machines.  I haven't spoken to a real person at a bank in a LONG time.  For all I know, they may not even be employing humans anymore.

I'm going against the tide here.

I think tipping is the best value for the buck you can get anywhere.

I don't go out just for the steak and wine.  (I'm pretty good at making that myself).
Tip early and often and generously.

Eating out doesn't make any economic sense from a "fuel" standpoint.  You're eating out for the experience.  In my opinion, the experience is enhanced way beyond the extra expense if you are friendly, knowledgable, inquisitive - and tip early and often.

[Addendum]
Thinking about this more...  Part of the pushback on tipping may come from just casual eating at fast food or pizzerias or coffee shops...

Some of those places can provide a nice place to get lost in your thoughts, etc... but if you are just going there for fuel and convenience, I highly recommend just hitting your local grocery store.  Pick up a 1/2 pound of pastrami and a cup of coffee.  No tip required.  Easy, fast, healthy, eat it in your car or walking down the street.

But once you have decided that you are willing to pay a 500% markup for the pleasure of candlelight, a nice cocktail, a beautiful server and a chef that knows what he/she is doing... then adding 20 to 30% on top of that gives you more than linear returns.

I think this even applies to the local coffee shop where you are stopping in for a cup of joe and planning on using the internet for 2 hours.  It's amazing how much better the experience will be if you tip a couple of bucks before settling in for the morning.

I don't mind tipping when I go out to eat at a restaurant and I usually give around 20%, rounded down to the nearest dollar.

What I hate are the awkward situations where you don't know if a tip is expected or not, or it's expected for doing very little. For example, the person who handles your bag as you are checking in on a cruise. They're supposed to get $1/bag. You mean I carry it all the way there myself and then give somebody $1/bag for carrying it the last few feet? Imagine how many bags get checked in on a typical cruise and that's a whole lot of dough for somebody. Ditto with valet parking. I always avoid it when I can but sometimes there isn't any other parking available and I've never known what you are supposed to tip the valet when you end up in that awkward situation.

Mark Leavy wrote: I'm going against the tide here.

I think tipping is the best value for the buck you can get anywhere.

I don't go out just for the steak and wine.  (I'm pretty good at making that myself).
Tip early and often and generously.

Eating out doesn't make any economic sense from a "fuel" standpoint.  You're eating out for the experience.  In my opinion, the experience is enhanced way beyond the extra expense if you are friendly, knowledgable, inquisitive - and tip early and often.

[Addendum]
Thinking about this more...  Part of the pushback on tipping may come from just casual eating at fast food or pizzerias or coffee shops...

Some of those places can provide a nice place to get lost in your thoughts, etc... but if you are just going there for fuel and convenience, I highly recommend just hitting your local grocery store.  Pick up a 1/2 pound of pastrami and a cup of coffee.  No tip required.  Easy, fast, healthy, eat it in your car or walking down the street.

But once you have decided that you are willing to pay a 500% markup for the pleasure of candlelight, a nice cocktail, a beautiful server and a chef that knows what he/she is doing... then adding 20 to 30% on top of that gives you more than linear returns.

I think this even applies to the local coffee shop where you are stopping in for a cup of joe and planning on using the internet for 2 hours.  It's amazing how much better the experience will be if you tip a couple of bucks before settling in for the morning.

Well said - my experience as well. +1

Mark Leavy wrote: Eating out doesn't make any economic sense from a "fuel" standpoint.  You're eating out for the experience.  In my opinion, the experience is enhanced way beyond the extra expense if you are friendly, knowledgable, inquisitive - and tip early and often.

Yes, that makes a lot of sense!  That's why I don't even eat out at fast casual, but take it home.  This is not the kind of experience I want to be having with my memories or food....  fat, dumb, stupid losers eating there (yes I'm aware of the irony), smelly place, greasy tables, order screwups, unclean bathrooms, etc..  It's all very... Charlie Sheen skanky, not a luxurious fluffy pillow.

There's also the tipping that you do once a year at Christmas for the people who do personal service for you.  That's much more of a headache because there isn't a simple guideline.  What do you all do for that? 

I imagine most of you don't have doormen, superintendents, porters etc to deal with, but you do have mail carriers, house cleaners etc who deserve a little extra love once a year.

WiseOne wrote: I imagine most of you don't have doormen, superintendents, porters etc to deal with, but you do have mail carriers, house cleaners etc who deserve a little extra love once a year.

Just don't be like the greedy evil capitalist twin of the Koch Brothers who writes a check and never delivers it personally.   And it's not for very much, either.

As a customer, I appreciate the opportunity to tip.  I also dislike being expected to tip and find it presumptuous.  I factor these things in when deciding how and where to spend money.  Kinda simple.

MangoMan wrote: Not that this is pertinent to the conversation, but how can you use pastrami [a fatty, cured, red meat] and healthy in the same sentence?

Maybe he means an uncured, nitrate-free pastrami???

Well, if we're going to talk about pastrami in a thread about tipping I guess I can interject something that is a little closer to the topic. Call me an asshole if you want, but I don't like it very much when you buy something at the store and they ask you if you would like to donate something to charity.

WiseOne,

As I wander  Manhattan, for 15 years I have been asking doormen what is the expected Christmas tip.  (THe NY Times gave ridiculous amounts.  So clarification was needed). 

Finally, Last year a doorman on West 57th Street by Columbus Circle leveled and told me a bit.  I started by saying I am a teacher and cannot "fork it over 'big time.'"  He responded a teacher might give $300 to $500 @ Christmas.  What I neglected to ask if that was to be split among all the 24 hour staffers.

I imagine the door guys know who makes more than the teachers and they expect more from the better off.  This particular doorman seemed fairly at ease with the conversation and all the residents, good tippers or not.  I am happy to not be living in a doorman building, BTW.

I pursued this tipping info as I was always told to tip well.  Further, when traveling in the rural areas, I tip more as New Yorkers (and HBPP people!) seem to do better.  It seems a chance to help out and I am not near being homeless yet.

Further and in summary (but with reason to continue tomorrow), these stores that put out tip cups for what amounted to routine service in my lifetime are being obnoxious.  I feel no need to drop $$$ in a tip cup for Chinese takeout.  If a vendor were to get snotty, I would not return. 

BUT…there is a sit-down coffee shop 2 blocks from home.  There is no table service but we toss monet in their tip cup as we are using their tables.  They stay behind the counter and we even pick up after ourselves.  Curious, yes, but we are treated well over 19 years and the provided amenity is nice.  And remember New Yorkers do better than the counter jockeys.

Hope I can tell you more.

I've always found it strange that some delis have a tip jar while others don't. No table service. I wish there could be a standard.

I like tipping extra at the few places that I go to all the time, where the waitstaff all know my face and name. I hope to never end up like that couple that ended up with a little something extra in their soda cup at Chili's (in the news this week).

dualstow wrote: I like tipping extra at the few places that I go to all the time, where the waitstaff all know my face and name. I hope to never end up like that couple that ended up with a little something extra in their soda cup at Chili's (in the news this week).

Interesting melodrama: http://abcnews.go.com/US/cops-dna-analy ... d=31495378

MachineGhost wrote:

MangoMan wrote: Not that this is pertinent to the conversation, but how can you use pastrami [a fatty, cured, red meat] and healthy in the same sentence?

Maybe he means an uncured, nitrate-free pastrami???

I actually have nothing against nitrates (or wood smoke or salt or spices).
Anyone that tells you to eat your greens shouldn't be against nitrates either.

It's not a huge part of my diet (which is mostly uncured fatty red meat), but grabbing some pastrami for a quick meal now and then is perfectly healthy (in Mark's bizarre belief system)

Mark Leavy wrote:

MachineGhost wrote:

MangoMan wrote: Not that this is pertinent to the conversation, but how can you use pastrami [a fatty, cured, red meat] and healthy in the same sentence?

Maybe he means an uncured, nitrate-free pastrami???

I actually have nothing against nitrates (or wood smoke or salt or spices).
Anyone that tells you to eat your greens shouldn't be against nitrates either.

It's not a huge part of my diet (which is mostly uncured fatty red meat), but grabbing some pastrami for a quick meal now and then is perfectly healthy (in Mark's bizarre belief system)

As long as we're getting off topic didn't the preservation of meat down through centuries past involve "nitrates', aka salt?

I think (hope at least!) that the $300-500 is spread around the staff, but I think it's a bit on the low side.  My building has a fairly low ratio of staff to residents, and I tipped in the $500-$600 range.  For luxury buildings with more staff, the expectations are higher.

I'm with steward about voluntary, as opposed to coerced, tipping.

WiseOne wrote: My building has a fairly low ratio of staff to residents, and I tipped in the $500-$600 range.

This is so, so hard for me to fathom. Are these people not paid or something!?!

On my recent trip to Italy it was refreshing to see that tips were not expected at restaurants there. Evidently they feel that waiters do valuable work and pay them better up front.

PS,

Ya gotta move to New York City.  That is a good tip.

For instance, doormen are paid to check the visitors coming in and out of the building, to be sure that no unauthorized people enter the building.  But they actually do much more than that.  The tenants often use them as their personal servants, to take deliveries and put them away for the tenants, including food from food delivery services and other huge and heavy boxes.  They even are obliged to chase out rats that roam into the building from Central Park and other areas that attract rodents to the building. They are obligated to assist and entertain the residents' children when they arrive early home from school, and to take messages for tenants, They generally deal with all of the "pain in the neck"  things that drive people crazy.  So when the holidays roll around, it is expected that the residents tip the doormen, as their salaries does not compensate for all the extra duties that they are expected to perform.

bedraggled wrote: PS,

Ya gotta move to New York City.  That is a good tip.

Actually, for four years, I lived nearby (Bronxville) and visited often. For one year, I worked in the city. I discovered that it's not the place for me.

I'm still not sure I follow, really. I get that there are a lot of extra duties not listed in the job description. But every job involves this. I don't get a tip when I get assigned weird projects not even remotely in my area of expertise in addition to all the normal stuff I still have to do. And $300 is a lot of money for a tip. How do you pay it? Cash? A check? I dunno, it's just hard for me to imagine the whole thing not seeming terribly awkward, not to mention leaning on the doorman in the way you describe.  I suspect it's one of those many New York things I'll just never understand.

Not sure I understand it either :-)  It's kind of a time honored NYC custom, like the Rockefeller Christmas tree, and the level of service you get has a lot to do with how much you tip.  They're paid minimum wage or close to it.

What bedraggled said was correct - they help me with packages, take care of little things on request, even had a concierge wait up for me when I was flying back from Europe and was coming in late.  Also doormen, concierges, and porters make it possible to live independently in New York for far longer than one might be able to in the suburbs.  There have been a few residents in my building who were disabled or very elderly (e.g. one died a while ago at the age of 100), and the staff would check up on them regularly or let them hang out in the lobby.

Life here is definitely unique.  You get a support staff and easy access to great public spaces but no central A/C, washer/dryer, back yard, or extra bedrooms.  I think the total expenses are probably about the same in the suburbs across the river, but I'd hate the commute and the isolation, so I'm happy with the city package and all it entails.

WiseOne wrote: Not sure I understand it either :-)  It's kind of a time honored NYC custom, like the Rockefeller Christmas tree, and the level of service you get has a lot to do with how much you tip.  They're paid minimum wage or close to it.

What bedraggled said was correct - they help me with packages, take care of little things on request, even had a concierge wait up for me when I was flying back from Europe and was coming in late.  Also doormen, concierges, and porters make it possible to live independently in New York for far longer than one might be able to in the suburbs.  There have been a few residents in my building who were disabled or very elderly (e.g. one died a while ago at the age of 100), and the staff would check up on them regularly or let them hang out in the lobby.

Life here is definitely unique.  You get a support staff and easy access to great public spaces but no central A/C, washer/dryer, back yard, or extra bedrooms.  I think the total expenses are probably about the same in the suburbs across the river, but I'd hate the commute and the isolation, so I'm happy with the city package and all it entails.

Totally. I completely understand the appeal of the area. There is a magic to New York City that no other American city I've been in can match. It's indescribable.

That said, I do take issue with the idea that you can't have it all, that it's a binary dichotomy between space, isolation, and car-dependency vs high density, community life, and car-freedom. I live in what I guess is technically a suburb, but I know all my neighbors and there is an active community life. My neighborhood is so close to the city center that I can walk to a park, a library, multiple grocery stores, a (locally-owned!) hardware store, a variety of restaurants, a post office, a UPS store, and even a DMV. Yes that's right, I walk to the DMV. And not only that, it's not even a DMV, it's this private company that New Mexico allows to offer DMV services for a markup, so naturally you can be in and out in like 10 minutes. Oh, and a two-year registration is less than $100. It's amazing. And all of this with a washer and dryer, 3 bedrooms, central HVAC, half an acre, and a cost so low I could afford to pay cash.

But no, never mind, I take it back, the coasts are truly the only bearable places to live! Don't come here! It's awful! You'll hate it! We only just recently developed the technology for outhouses and clay tablets! It really is the underdeveloped pit the coastal media outlets make it out to be!  Stay away!

More later but these doormen jobs are union jobs.  I am not sure of the pay.  I think the pay is OK as they are always pleasant.  The union often threatens a strike.  The situation is always settled nicely for the doormen.

PS,

Bronxville?  Nice place.  In Westchester.  Westchester is very crowded, so I guess people like it there.  There is no real public transportation there.  Thank God for NYC's subway and bus system

Later.