Gyroscopic Investing

Interesting concept but seems underwhelming to spend $180 per 1000kwh panel upfront only to save $10.67 a year, with 10 panels maximum.

May be a better deal if you can host.

http://www.yeloha.com/

It appears that I could buy prepaid electricity from these people at a very slightly lower overall monthly price than I am currently paying my electric utility. Huh.

Pointedstick wrote: It appears that I could buy prepaid electricity from these people at a very slightly lower overall monthly price than I am currently paying my electric utility. Huh.

Grid parity?  But is saving only a few bucks per month worth the bother of the marginal utility?

I've thought a great deal about solar as it pertains to my life and electricity usage. My electric bill is ludicrously small right now ($20-25/mo) and more than half of it is the base charge. Same with my gas bill during the non-winter months. So the real savings would be if I can get rid of both my gas and electric bills entirely by switching to electric appliances whose usage is entirely provided by site-generated solar PV, which would save me an average of $700 a year. I could offset that cost with $17,500 in the PP, so if the all-inclusive price of installing a 3.5kW array and replacing my gas appliances with electric versions would fall under that amount, I'd come out ahead. But I'd have less liquidity and the electromechanical equipment would have a higher "expense ratio" than PP investments, and it's certainly less portable. However, I would also be eliminating the impact of electricity and gas price inflation from my life, which is nice. And the panels will shade part of the roof, reducing the summer cooling load slightly.

So far, the solar route comes out slightly ahead if I do a lot of the work myself, which I don't have time for at the moment. As the cost falls in the coming years, I expect it will eventually become a no-brainer to hire the whole job out.

Been waiting for this kind of thing.  My roof has shading issues.  I want my local utility to just install a bunch of solar

edit: I don't get it.  It says I can save $212 for 3 years if I spend $180 on a 1KW panel.  So that's a return of 5.6%  And ignores the risks inherent in contracting with this seemingly random company.

Pointedstick wrote:So the real savings would be if I can get rid of both my gas and electric bills entirely by switching to electric appliances whose usage is entirely provided by site-generated solar PV, which would save me an average of $700 a year.

Have you considered propane?  Solar heating?

dragoncar wrote: Been waiting for this kind of thing.  My roof has shading issues.  I want my local utility to just install a bunch of solar

edit: I don't get it.  It says I can save $212 for 3 years if I spend $180 on a 1KW panel.  So that's a return of 5.6%  And ignores the risks inherent in contracting with this seemingly random company.

The whole thing sounds shady to me.  There is not a lot of specific information on their webpage.

... Mountaineer

Pointedstick wrote: My electric bill is ludicrously small right now ($20-25/mo) and more than half of it is the base charge.

How do u manage that? I thought it was very hot in New Mexico so what do you do for A/C or do you do without?

My smallest bill in FL is around $100 and can exceed $200 in the summer months.

MangoMan wrote:

madbean2 wrote:

Pointedstick wrote: My electric bill is ludicrously small right now ($20-25/mo) and more than half of it is the base charge.

How do u manage that? I thought it was very hot in New Mexico so what do you do for A/C or do you do without?

My smallest bill in FL is around $100 and can exceed $200 in the summer months.

Not to presume PS's answer, but you are missing the obvious. AC removes humidity as well as cooling. What makes AC necessary in FL is the humidity. NM is very dry, so AC become s necessary only on extremely hot days. Otherwise a fan would likely suffice.

Yeah, we hear it's not the heat it's the humidity all the time here in Florida but I've been in the desert southwest in the summer and found the "dry heat" to be every bit as oppressive if not worse that what we have here. I suspect most of the folks who live in places like Phoenix have A/C and run them a lot.

MangoMan wrote: Not to presume PS's answer, but you are missing the obvious. AC removes humidity as well as cooling. What makes AC necessary in FL is the humidity. NM is very dry, so AC become s necessary only on extremely hot days. Otherwise a fan would likely suffice.

Indeed.  I turn the A/C fan on at 78F and then the A/C itself comes on at > 80F.  The part I don't like is there doesn't seem to be any thermostats on the market that allow the fan to be automatically turned on/off in regards to a given temperature.  They're all manual control on/off which is Stupid As Hell.

In general, I follow this philosophy:

1. Don't plug in too much stuff
2. Of the things you do plug in, make sure they have a low draw
3. Don't keep them on for very long


Specifically, my electricity bill is so low due to a confluence of deliberate choices:

- Living in a state with relatively low electricity rates ($0.11/kWh)
- Spent a lot of time and money on better windows and insulation to passively keep the house more comfortable without the need for mechanical heating and cooling at all during the spring and fall
- New refrigerator that was as small as I could manage and as energy-efficient as I could find (about 1 kWh/day)
- Evaporative cooler instead of AC (maximum of 3 kWh/day, only need to use it 3 months out of the year
- All LED light bulbs, and only ever used in the evening (negligible daily load)
- Heat pump water heater in conjunction with low-flow showerheads (about 1 kWh/day, often less)
- No huge TV or entertainment system
- No dryer
- Gas oven and furnace (will change in a few years, but the increased draw will be 100% offset by on-site solar generation)
- No other stuff that might use a lot of electricity

PS, The above all sounds very Buddhist to me.

Your low-frills lifestyle is an inspiration.

I'll mention that if your AC load is driving your utility bill, there are many things you can do to improve this situation, in order of cost-effectiveness:

1. Meticulously use caulk and spray foam to seal all the gaps and holes in your ceiling/attic floor, and then everywhere else you can find.
2. Plant big, fast-growing trees on the south and west sides of your house
3. Add a radiant barrier under your roof rafters if you can DIY it (and only if you can). Face the shiny side down if it's only shiny on one side.
4. Pile up cellulose insulation onto your attic floor so it's at least 15" thick. DIY this if your attic is big enough to work in without going mad.
5. Replace any incandescent light bulbs with LED bulbs.
6. Replace any AC unit that's SEER 10 or below with a single SEER 20+ ducted central unit, or 2 or more SEER 30+ ductless units.
7. Replace any single-pane windows with modern Low-E double pane vinyl or fiberglass windows with air infiltration (AI) and solar heat gain coefficient (SHGC) values that are as low as you can find. Avoid crap windows that cost less than $200 apiece, or have aluminum frames, or have any exposed exterior wood.
8. When it's time to re-roof, choose a metal roof that's white, light gray, or bare metal. For extra awesomeness, have it installed on ridge-to-eave purlins.

That's terrific, PS.  I'm in awe at the low electricity rates you have.  Juice is 3x as expensive here.  I guess we have some special type of atoms in the air or something.

Just goes to show that the most cost-effective energy savings is "negawatt" energy.  I would do that before going to solar.  Another thing I'd consider first is the Tesla Powerwall.  There's a big cost differential here if you can buy your power at night, and you get some protection from power outages thrown in for free.  I've been talking to my mother about getting one because of just that issue.  It's a lot cheaper than the gas-powered generator she was contemplating.

At your rates, WiseOne, solar grid defection moves into the realm of financial feasibility, even taking into account your much cloudier climate. I imagine the problem for people like you is roof space, though. I would be wary of the Powerwall, though. It will require maintenance and eventual replacement just like the generator does, and not provide as good functionality when there's an outage that lasts for a day or more. I like your idea to use it to reduce costs, but run the numbers. They're not cheap. The payback may exceed the service life of the product, in which case, don't bother.

Thanks for the warning, PS.  What would you expect for service life?

The gas generator with installation was quoted at $11K, and my mother was reluctant to spend that much.  The Powerwall is only about $7K.  It would cover most outages and the lower electricity prices would cut the cost further - there would be no such benefit for the gas generator.  Most outages are a day or less; for the rare (1x/year) longer ones my mother could come and stay with me in the city.  Since she's 80 years old I wasn't thinking too much about service life.

There's not much you can do about alternative energy in an existing cooperative apartment building here, because of state regulatory issues.  It would make a lot of sense for a building to cover its available rooftop with solar panels or windmills, but the words "sense" and "Albany" simply do not go together.  I'd love to see a setup for an apartment where you connect the incoming power line into a small size Powerwall, and feed that from solar window films during the day and the grid at night.

Tesla guarantees 10 years, which I guess is fine if it's for an 80 year-old! The gas generator could last longer than that if it's maintained, less if it's not. $11k seems hellaciously expensive, though. I could have a 4 kW solar array professionally installed for that price (after tax subsidies). Christ, does everything really cost that much in NYC!?

Yes duct sealing is very important if the ducts run in the attic, crawlspace, or unconditioned basement. If this is the case, not only is it important to seal them (with duct mastic, not tape), but you also need to deal with the spaces the ducts are in. An attic with ducts needs a radiant barrier, no question. And the ducts need to be buried in insulation. A crawlspace with ducts in it needs to be sealed and its walls insulated. An unconditioned basement with ducts in it needs to have the ducts or the walls insulated.

Desert, or anyone, could you say a bit more about chimney balloons - I think I get the concept, but this is the first time I've ever heard of them.  I always have kept the damper closed in the summer.  Where do you get the balloons?

... Mountaineer

If anyone is considering upgrades, it may be worth doing a formal energy audit.  My mother did that and qualified for a $10K interest free loan and another $8K in an outright grant.  That let her upgrade insulation and get the highest efficiency heating and a/c system she could find.  Her electric & gas bill was cut in half.  A big chunk of her bill now is the old refrigerator, so that'll be the next project.

Sort of ironic that I'm now considering moving into a cooperative complex with ancient (1924) cast iron casement single pane windows and no electrical submetering.  That means I will have completely opposite incentives:  buy cheap A/Cs & light bulbs, don't pay for energy star appliances, leave lights and A/C on all I want, etc.  Weird!

Pointedstick wrote: Yes duct sealing is very important if the ducts run in the attic, crawlspace, or unconditioned basement. If this is the case, not only is it important to seal them (with duct mastic, not tape), but you also need to deal with the spaces the ducts are in. An attic with ducts needs a radiant barrier, no question. And the ducts need to be buried in insulation. A crawlspace with ducts in it needs to be sealed and its walls insulated. An unconditioned basement with ducts in it needs to have the ducts or the walls insulated.

If you live in a house and the ductwork is in the attic, get a couple of roles of aluminum tape and start with the filter boxes and go through the whole attic looking for actual or potential air leaks and tape them up.  The blower in the attic will almost certainly have leaks in any number of places.  Tape them up.

Mastic is great too, but it's messy and doesn't work well for some kinds of air leaks.  Aluminum tape will seal up almost anything as long as you have a clean surface to work with.

I took all of my ceiling vents down and aluminum taped the inside of the vent boxes so that there are no leaks between the end of the duct and the vent, and there also isn't any porous surface for anything to stick to (or grow on) between the end of the duct and the vent.  I did the same thing to the inside of the filter boxes.  They look like something NASA might have built now.

Aluminum tape is cool stuff.  Be careful, though, it's easy to slice your fingers on the edges of the tape.  Also, make sure you place it on a relatively clean surface if possible.

While you're in the attic, check the drains on your attic units.  There will be a primary drain and an overflow drain that drips outside if the primary is clogged.  Put a little bleach in the primary drain once a year to help control algae growth (it's a small line and gets clogged easily).

Think about the filters you are using in your AC system.  You don't want the cheapest because they don't really filter much and you usually don't want the most expensive because they are so restrictive your unit ends up running more because it is moving a smaller volume of air due to the filter restriction.  I buy the cheapest 3M Filtrete filters I can find on Amazon.

If it works with the exterior style of your home, sturdy glass storm doors are nice.  One of the benefits of storm doors that I am shocked more survivalist-types don't talk about is that they add a huge level of security to door entrances to your home because you can't kick a storm door in (they open out), and getting through a storm door is a noisy process that will leave a lot of sharp edges behind, and once you're through the storm door, you still have the primary door to worry about. 

My parents used to have these amazing storm doors with two panes of glass in each and double keyed deadbolt locks on them.  They were much better quality than the stuff I see at Home Depot.  I used to look at them and wonder how I would get past one if I were a bad guy and the key wasn't in the inside lock of the storm door deadbolt.  Even if I broke all the glass out of the storm door, I would still have the storm door frame in the way and it would still be locked, which would make it very hard to be able to kick in the door because the storm door frame would be blocking the sweet spot on the right edge of the door for kicking it in.

Only in Texas are people crazy enough to put AC units in attics where it gets up to like 140 degrees. And yes, storm doors are the shit. Careful, though: on a southern or western exposure, if you get a storm door with a lot of glass that seals well, you're creating create a greenhouse between the storm door and the entry door. In my neighborhood, people with this setup have had steel and fiberglass doors warp from the intense heat.

Pointedstick wrote: Only in Texas are people crazy enough to put AC units in attics where it gets up to like 140 degrees. And yes, storm doors are the shit. Careful, though: on a southern or western exposure, if you get a storm door with a lot of glass that seals well, you're creating create a greenhouse between the storm door and the entry door. In my neighborhood, people with this setup have had steel and fiberglass doors warp from the intense heat.

A radiant barrier in the attic is a must.

Best is to install radiant decking when building the house or replacing the roof.  It lowers the temp in the attic by 30-40 degrees.

If you have pull-down attic stairs, you can create a little radiant barrier blanket for the inside of the attic door that will help keep the attic entrance from leaking too much heat into the living area during the summer.

If you are building a house, consider using radiant sheathing.  We did this when we built our home and it's awesome stuff.  Tape the seams with aluminum tape if you can.  I was concerned that it would affect radio reception in our home, but it really hasn't.  Before they bricked and shingled our house, it looked like a spaceship.

Our house is 15 years old now with 12 SEER AC units and about 3,000 square feet.  Our combined electric and gas bill is equalized and costs $313.00 per month, which I think is really good, considering that we keep the thermostat on about 71 degrees 24 hours a day year round.

Pointedstick wrote: Only in Texas are people crazy enough to put AC units in attics where it gets up to like 140 degrees. And yes, storm doors are the shit. Careful, though: on a southern or western exposure, if you get a storm door with a lot of glass that seals well, you're creating create a greenhouse between the storm door and the entry door. In my neighborhood, people with this setup have had steel and fiberglass doors warp from the intense heat.

Not just Texas. I had one in my attic in Florida. It was a water-cooled heat pump which meant I not only needed power to run the A/C but also to pump water from the well up into the attic. Electric bills were running me around $250/month back then and that was about 20 years ago, so I'm pretty happy with my few months of $200 bills nowadays.

MediumTex wrote: If you live in a house and the ductwork is in the attic, get a couple of roles of aluminum tape and start with the filter boxes and go through the whole attic looking for actual or potential air leaks and tape them up.  The blower in the attic will almost certainly have leaks in any number of places.  Tape them up.

Over on another thread I think you asked what is the difference between being 46 and 66. Well there you have one.