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Palestinians are stabbing 70 yr old women, knifing boys in candy stores, shooting diners in restaurants and ramming cars into people at bus stops then bludgeoning the injured with weapons. Who wouldn't root for these people?

Reub wrote: Palestinians are stabbing 70 yr old women, knifing boys in candy stores, shooting diners in restaurants and ramming cars into people at bus stops then bludgeoning the injured with weapons. Who wouldn't root for these people?

What the hell is going on?

They probably see Obama's pathological weakness and the rising strength of Iran and Russia as an opportunity.

MachineGhost wrote:

Reub wrote: Palestinians are stabbing 70 yr old women, knifing boys in candy stores, shooting diners in restaurants and ramming cars into people at bus stops then bludgeoning the injured with weapons. Who wouldn't root for these people?

What the hell is going on?

They are reacting to decades of foreign occupation, colonization and second class citizenship. Not saying the Palestinians haven't contributed to this problem with their stubborn refusal to recognize Israel's right to exist and recourse to terrorism directed at civilians. But there is so much blame to go around that there is no point in even trying to sort out who is at fault. The bottom line is both sides have no use for the other.

The best thing we can do is to is to stay the hell out of it until they get tired of killing each other.

Personally,  I find those stabbing 70 year old women and children in candy stores at fault. But that's just me.

Reub wrote: Personally,  I find those stabbing 70 year old women and children in candy stores at fault. But that's just me.

Fair enough. But there are some who might fault the people who have stolen their land and reduced them to 2nd class citizens under occupation. And there are some who might fault those who kidnapped Palestinian children and burned them to death.

No one has clean hand over there.

Ad Orientem wrote:

Reub wrote: Personally,  I find those stabbing 70 year old women and children in candy stores at fault. But that's just me.

Fair enough. But there are some who might fault the people who have stolen their land and reduced them to 2nd class citizens under occupation. And there are some who might fault those who kidnapped Palestinian children and burned them to death.

No one has clean hand over there.

Lets not get sidetracked.  I'm more concerned about why this sudden explosion of rather personal violence out of nowhere.  Nothing has really changed in real terms other than Russia and Cuba stepping into the vaccuum and actively supporting Syrian stability because OBAMA! is an incompetent monkey.  Why does this visible regime support somehow make a material difference to the Palistinians on the ground thousands of miles away?  All that really changed is the Bullshit.  What, did they think the USA was holding them back before???

One could argue ancient history for another thousand years. I am looking at what's happening today. Now is when emissaries of the religion of peace are stabbing innocent women and children and burning holy sites. Posing as journalists to stab people. Entering restaurants and murdering civilians eating lunch. Attempting to blow up car bombs in busy markets. Elsewhere, chopping off heads and raping young Christian girls. Performing ethnic and religious cleansing. Burning people alive in steel cages. These emissaries, as we are seeing all over the world, find excuses for their subhuman behavior everywhere. They always have a good reason for being animals. If you want to be gullible enough to accept their flimsy excuses then you are being quite naive.

Probably some outlier occurence done by extremists who were condemned, captured and prosecuted for their crimes and not turned into heroes by their govt.

Now Obama's allies (Cuba) have sent military advisors and special forces to Syria to help the Assad regime fend off the Islamists.

What a tangled web.

Ad Orientem wrote:

MachineGhost wrote:

Reub wrote: Palestinians are stabbing 70 yr old women, knifing boys in candy stores, shooting diners in restaurants and ramming cars into people at bus stops then bludgeoning the injured with weapons. Who wouldn't root for these people?

What the hell is going on?

They are reacting to decades of foreign occupation, colonization and second class citizenship. Not saying the Palestinians haven't contributed to this problem with their stubborn refusal to recognize Israel's right to exist and recourse to terrorism directed at civilians. But there is so much blame to go around that there is no point in even trying to sort out who is at fault.

Yes.  Ironically, most Israeli Jewish citizens recognize this fact, if my acquaintances there are any judge.

However, the Palestinians (unlike the rest of the Israelis) have continued to be hemmed into what are effectively concentration camps, with people cut off from water supplies, arable land, jobs, health care etc.  The living conditions in Gaza are reason enough to expect that the desperate actions will continue.

Full disclosure:  My opinions have a lot to do with inside knowledge.  I have extended family in Bethlehem (Palestinian/Eastern Orthodox).

clacy wrote: Now Obama's allies (Cuba) have sent military advisors and special forces to Syria to help the Assad regime fend off the Islamists.

What a tangled web.

And Iran!

I hope Putin is as savvy as he sounds otherwise we're looking at World War III.  I think the USA should have a neutral position and stop backing Sunnis or Shiites of any stripe.  Maybe OBAMA! will do that since he has no balls for anything.

WiseOne wrote: However, the Palestinians (unlike the rest of the Israelis) have continued to be hemmed into what are effectively concentration camps, with people cut off from water supplies, arable land, jobs, health care etc.  The living conditions in Gaza are reason enough to expect that the desperate actions will continue.

Don't they feel like the Palestinians have brought those conditions upon themselves by refusing to co-operate with the Isrealis, who is clearly the superior power in the equation?  I don't know how you can possibly negotiate with ideological extremists, though.  They're just not willing to give an inch.

Also, I'm curious if the Palestinians ever target Israeli Arabs?  Are they indiscriminate or are they selective?

Well, the concentration camps happened first, which would reasonably cause the Palestinians not to "cooperate".  Not sure what that word means in this context exactly.  If they stopped all anti-Israel aggression I doubt anything would change.  I do think the Palestinians could learn a lot from Gandhi's approach, though.

Quick correction of the usual revisionist history.  In 1948, Palestinians living in Israel were forced out of their homes en masse, and had the choice of packing into camps or fleeing the country.  Some villages were flat out destroyed.  Other homes were simply taken over by arriving Jews who still live in them today and consider themselves as the owners.  For example, my mother's uncle chose to flee to Guatemala.  He & family (wife & 3 children) lost nearly everything they owned including their bank savings (which were also claimed by the Israeli state).  His home in Jerusalem was claimed by Jewish settlers and is still there.

Fast forward 60+ years.  The camps are still there.  I'd say the violence is not hard to understand.  Doesn't make it right - just understandable.

MachineGhost wrote:

I hope Putin is as savvy as he sounds otherwise we're looking at World War III.  I think the USA should have a neutral position and stop backing Sunnis or Shiites of any stripe.  Maybe OBAMA! will do that since he has no balls for anything.

I totally agree.  Right now, it's impossible to tell friend from foe.  Obama has no clue what he wants his strategy to be.  He is a loud talker, who won't back up his mouth, so it's better if he just stays out of it.

And there's just as much blame to be placed at Bush's feet.  Frankly, if we could hit the reset button and put Sadam, Mubarak, Asad and Gaddafi back in place, that would be the most optimal outcome but their fates were sealed when Bush created a giant power vacuum in the ME. 

I'm ashamed to admit that I was in favor of invading Iraq.  What a debacle this has become. 

But WiseOne, isn't that just part of the story? For the past month or so, I've read virtually nothing but the opposition (which in my case, means the Palestinian side, Gideon Levy, and likeminded Jews).

But along side the narrative of seized land (which I don't doubt), there is also what I have read for 25+ years: that many Palestinians sold the Jews worthless wasteland at exorbitant prices, all the while planning to return after Israel's neighboring countries made good on their promise to wipe out Jews in the area once in for all. Only it didn't work out.  Or do you not accept that? I believe in both the land sales and the seized land.

Also, British mandate hasn't been mentioned. It may be like PS expressed it (if I remember correctly), that the British gave the Jews land & access where they didn't really have to right to give anything. But that fact that this British Mandate existed means, that the Jews who were fleeing Europe (and earlier, expelled from Iran + Arab nations) did have permission for their influx, whether or not we see it in 2015 as a legitimate grant. And of course, it's been colored in our modern eyes by a lot of illegitimate settling.

I don't have my old books, but there's this. See, for example, the Third Aliyah: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... .80.931929

Speaking about the most current events, since it's a bit late to move Israel to, say, a small part of Germany, I think that we will not see a solution in our lifetimes. Not even in Ryan Melvey's-- I'm picking the youngest member I know.

The Israelis could stop the settlements and cede land annexed in the 60s back to the Palestinians, and it would just provide more places from which to launch rockets and build tunnels, low-tech and seemingly harmless weapons that in reality make ordinary life a living nightmare. No peace dividend.

On the other side, if the Palestianians stopped their attacks, I can still see them being harrassed and delayed at checkpoints, and I would not see it translated into less aggressive settlements by Jewish extremists. Perhaps if one side was nice to the other for over 100 years, something would change. What is the likelihood of that occurring?

WiseOne wrote: Quick correction of the usual revisionist history.  In 1948, Palestinians living in Israel were forced out of their homes en masse, and had the choice of packing into camps or fleeing the country.  Some villages were flat out destroyed.  Other homes were simply taken over by arriving Jews who still live in them today and consider themselves as the owners.  For example, my mother's uncle chose to flee to Guatemala.  He & family (wife & 3 children) lost nearly everything they owned including their bank savings (which were also claimed by the Israeli state).  His home in Jerusalem was claimed by Jewish settlers and is still there.

Fast forward 60+ years.  The camps are still there.  I'd say the violence is not hard to understand.  Doesn't make it right - just understandable.

This is true, but leaves out a couple of key facts, like the one where the Palestinian political leadership rejected the UN partition plan and called on surrounding Arab nations to invade and kick out the Jews to prevent the establishment of any type of Jewish-controlled state in the area. The Arab nations answered the call and began a war to determine the owner of the disputed territory militarily. And for a variety of unexpected reasons, the Jews won, and founded a new country. I'll also note that those same Arab nations have consistently denied the fleeing Palestinian refugees citizenship, full participation in their societies, etc. It's quite a dick move: heed their call by trying for a land grab, then when it fails, piss all over the refugees your war created. Jordan, the one country that actually succeeded at gaining territory in that war, took the West Bank for itself instead of handing it over the the Palestinians. Later they handed it over to the Israelis instead of, again, giving it to the Palestinians.

Obviously this is all quite unfair for the Palestinian civilians who had no input into the political process and maybe accepted the partition plan, but this is just the kind of sucky thing that happens to people living in disputed territory in violent parts of the world, sadly. Had the Arab nations won, it could be Jews living in ghettoes around the state of Palestine.

It sounds like the Palistinians have become the neo-Jews.  Why don't we just relocate them somewhere else as we did the Jews?  It doesn't sound like they have much to lose.

MachineGhost wrote: It sounds like the Palistinians have become the neo-Jews.  Why don't we just relocate them somewhere else as we did the Jews?  It doesn't sound like they have much to lose.

Too strong ties to the land. It's where they're from. (Not that Jews are from Miami or anything). Even the ones born in Switzerland feel strongly about it.
(I don't. I just feel strongly about the people there. Would love to move every Israeli Jew to Alaska, like in that novel, or someplace. Not gonna happen).

That's another great post, PointedStick. Unfortunately, 10,000 people could write something similar on a daily basis and the majority is still going to believe and repeat something similar to what Ad O wrote: "They stole their land." No offense, but it's just an ignorant statement when written in isolation.

dualstow wrote: That's another great post, PointedStick. Unfortunately, 10,000 people could write something similar on a daily basis and the majority is still going to believe and repeat something similar to what Ad O wrote: "They stole their land." No offense, but it's just an ignorant statement when written in isolation.

There is some truth to it, though. The inhabitants of the region were predominately Arabs and had been for thousands of years. There were some Jews living there, yes, but most of the Jews to arrive in the area came there after England promised to give them enough land in Palestine to build a homeland for themselves if they fought on the Allied side in WWI. And while this was a totally legit thing for the British to promise since if they won they would legally control that territory, morally it's somewhat questionable since giving Jews a homeland in Palestine would by necessity entail carving it out of the land currently inhabited by people who were not Jews and might not like Jews.

Now, it's true that this land was hardly a Palestinian homeland since it had been controlled by non-Arab Ottoman Turks for 400 years, but after the Turks were defeated in World War I and their territory transferred over to European powers, it was the British who let in all the Jews. Without that, there might be a state of Palestine with a substantial Jewish minority--or maybe that territory would be controlled by another Arab nation and have a loud and unruly Palestinian minority (highly likely). But it probably would not have been a Jewish country there if not the the British promising the Jews that they could live there.

dualstow wrote: That's another great post, PointedStick. Unfortunately, 10,000 people could write something similar on a daily basis and the majority is still going to believe and repeat something similar to what Ad O wrote: "They stole their land." No offense, but it's just an ignorant statement when written in isolation.

Since we're ultimately talking about property rights here, was all steps of legal due process really followed in how the land was taken from the Paleistinians?

But one thing that struck me is Israel WON THE WAR. (!!!)  Where else do we have a similar situation where the vanquished don't accept their defeat?

MachineGhost wrote:

dualstow wrote: That's another great post, PointedStick. Unfortunately, 10,000 people could write something similar on a daily basis and the majority is still going to believe and repeat something similar to what Ad O wrote: "They stole their land." No offense, but it's just an ignorant statement when written in isolation.

Since we're ultimately talking about property rights here, was all steps of legal due process really followed in how the land was taken from the Paleistinians?

But one thing that struck me is Israel WON THE WAR. (!!!)  Where else do we have a similar situation where the vanquished don't accept their defeat?

The Palestinians had not owned the land in hundreds of years. It was controlled by foreign invaders (the Ottoman Turks) and transferred to the people who beat them (The British). When you're talking about wars and territorial annexation, I'm not really sure property rights and due process apply. It's "might makes right" all the way.

Pointedstick wrote: The Palestinians had not owned the land in hundreds of years. It was controlled by foreign invaders (the Ottoman Turks) and transferred to the people who beat them (The British). When you're talking about wars and territorial annexation, I'm not really sure property rights and due process apply. It's "might makes right" all the way.

I think we're seeing that now as China's military might surpasses that of Japan. It will ultimately matter more than who received what island after World War II.
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Pointedstick wrote:

dualstow wrote: That's another great post, PointedStick. Unfortunately, 10,000 people could write something similar on a daily basis and the majority is still going to believe and repeat something similar to what Ad O wrote: "They stole their land." No offense, but it's just an ignorant statement when written in isolation.

There is some truth to it, though. The inhabitants of the region were predominately Arabs and had been for thousands of years.

Yes. Like I said earlier, I believe in both the land sales and the land seizures. I just don't think the statement adds up to much in isolation.

it was the British who let in all the Jews.
...
it probably would not have been a Jewish country there if not the the British promising the Jews that they could live there.

But that's what I wrote earlier. And, I also said that I can understand why that doesn't mean much to the Palestinians. But it does contribute to making the simple statement that the Jews stole Palestine far from true.

MachineGhost wrote: ... (earlier question answered by PS)
But one thing that struck me is Israel WON THE WAR. (!!!)  Where else do we have a similar situation where the vanquished don't accept their defeat?

Hey, I'm still waiting for Roger Waters to wage his BDS war on Japan until the Ainu are back in full control.