Figuring Out Religion

[Mountaineer]

Moved this answer here from the evolution thread.

To refresh you, a god is what you put your trust and identity in or derive meaning and security from; when you worship at the throne of envionmentalism or evolution, that is your religion.  In our postmodern culture, those who put their trust in themselves and not an external source of right and wrong, have really made themselves their own god - and thus their thoughts are their own religion.

I can't really make anything of that. I don't worship at the throne of environmentalism or evolution. I just think using science is the best and most adaptable way to figure out how things came along. I don't put my trust in it or derive my identity from it (well, on some level I do of course, say when I drive my car). Maybe next year they figure out things were different all along and that's fine, so be it. Meaning and security? I see no meaning, meaning in which way? Security in what? Not much security nowadays either. Identity? Seems a bit flexible, some people think I'm a nice guy, but then some can't stand me, so which one is it? You're born, you live, you die. Make the best of it.

Thanks for keeping the discussion going, it is very interesting to see how others see events.  Recognize, as I'm sure you do, that I may see things through a different lens than many others.  That said, from interpreting your response, I'd say "science" might be your god and you want it or depend on it to be able to explain pretty much everything from the material world to the "faith - in the broadest sense" world.  And you just might be searching, albeit unconsciously, for increased meaning and security, since as you point out - there is not much of that available in the world around us.  I may have that completely wrong however, so forgive me if I'm off base. 

In response to your comment about how others see you, you seem like a nice guy to me, but I've never met you that I know of.    And, I agree we are born, live, and die a physical death.  I just do not wish to die the second death since there is way not to do that.  Christianity does hinge on the resurrection, and since there is so much evidence to support it and none that disproves it (at least in the 2000 years since it happened), I also put my trust in the claim that Jesus was resurrected and in the promises of Jesus that I will be resurrected too on the Last Day, as will everyone from all time for judgement by Jesus per God's Word.

... Mountaineer

[Jan Van]

That said, from interpreting your response, I'd say "science" might be your god and you want it or depend on it to be able to explain pretty much everything from the material world to the "faith - in the broadest sense" world. 

Guess that's true, though I'd say I don't really "believe" in anything else but the material world. Are there unexplained things, yes, will they always be unexplained, I hope not. But I'll be long gone...

And you just might be searching, albeit unconsciously, for increased meaning and security, since as you point out - there is not much of that available in the world around us.  I may have that completely wrong however, so forgive me if I'm off base. 

I'm not looking for meaning, as I don't think there is or needs to be meaning. That's probably the influence of a Zen background.

Christianity does hinge on the resurrection, and since there is so much evidence to support it and none that disproves it (at least in the 2000 years since it happened)

My guess would be that's not science-based evidence?

Thanks for keeping the discussion going, it is very interesting to see how others see events.

yes, it is! Thank you too 

[Mountaineer]

That said, from interpreting your response, I'd say "science" might be your god and you want it or depend on it to be able to explain pretty much everything from the material world to the "faith - in the broadest sense" world. 

Guess that's true, though I'd say I don't really "believe" in anything else but the material world. Are there unexplained things, yes, will they always be unexplained, I hope not. But I'll be long gone...

And you just might be searching, albeit unconsciously, for increased meaning and security, since as you point out - there is not much of that available in the world around us.  I may have that completely wrong however, so forgive me if I'm off base. 

I'm not looking for meaning, as I don't think there is or needs to be meaning. That's probably the influence of a Zen background.

Christianity does hinge on the resurrection, and since there is so much evidence to support it and none that disproves it (at least in the 2000 years since it happened)

My guess would be that's not science-based evidence?

Thanks for keeping the discussion going, it is very interesting to see how others see events.

yes, it is! Thank you too 

You would be right.  It is more along the lines of eye witnesses [ http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/12groups.htm  and  http://biblocality.com/forums/showthrea ... -John  ] with the documentation (various Books in the Scriptures) written and circulated while many of those eyewitnesses would still have been alive and able to dispute it if it were not true.

Bottom line.  I am very much like you in the sense that is seems we are both seeking truth.  We just have different ways of determining what is truth. 

Thanks again for an interesting conversation.


... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

Below is a link to an internet radio show "The Apologetics of Judaism" that I found to be quite interesting.  The host interviews Kevin Parvitz, a Jew by birth who married a "lapsed" Lutheran.  Kevin tells of his long journey to Jesus that began when his heart was touched by their very young daughter walking across the dining room table to tell daddy something.  I learned a lot about Judaism that I was not previously aware of.  The audio program is 54 minutes long and can be listened "live" on the webpage or downloaded for later listening.

http://www.kfuoam.org/2014/08/18/cd-2014-08-18/

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

Suggestion: If you have not read the previous Letters, posted earlier in this thread, I suggest you do so prior to reading subsequent Letters.  Each Letter, a short chapter in the book "What They Need to Hear" by Klemet Preus tends to build on prior material.  They begin with "Preface" in my August 6 post; the preface discusses the purpose of the book.

Letter 36 - Back to the Name
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ey6fr6cbqe601 ... 20Name.pdf

Letter 37 - The Benediction
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ocanj6350pqam ... iction.pdf

Letter 38 - Wagons of God's Love
https://www.dropbox.com/s/t0bc6mwsiyagn ... 20Love.pdf


... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

Suggestion: If you have not read the previous Letters, posted earlier in this thread, I suggest you do so prior to reading subsequent Letters.  Each Letter, a short chapter in the book "What They Need to Hear" by Klemet Preus tends to build on prior material.  They begin with "Preface" in my August 6 post; the preface discusses the purpose of the book.

Letter 39 - True Faith: Having
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hkf8x4u4rpcw7 ... Having.pdf

Letter 40 - True Faith: Knowledge
https://www.dropbox.com/s/umcna5h393ykn ... wledge.pdf

Letter 41 - True Faith: More About Knowledge
https://www.dropbox.com/s/szeu5we6v2d8n ... wledge.pdf


... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

The Christian Bible

I recently read this and thought it worth sharing with this group; it seems pertinent to the "Figuring Out Religion" discussion and perhaps helps address the question of "Why Christianity instead of all those other religions?".

... Mountaineer

During a question and answer session at a recent speaking engagement, a university student asked me, "Why do you believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God?" Now this is a very interesting question; and probably one of the most important questions any Christian could ask themselves. What is so special, so unique about the Bible that Christians believe it is literally the inspired word of God? In answering this student's question, I encouraged him to consider the following facts about the Bible:

First, the Bible is not just one single book. This is a more common misconception than many people realize, especially with people who do not come from a Judeo-Christian background. Rather than being a single book, the Bible is actually a collection of 66 books, which is called the canon of scriptures. These 66 books contain a variety of genres: history, poetry, prophecy, wisdom literature, letters, and apocalyptic just to name a few.

Second, these 66 books were written by 40 different authors. These authors came from a variety of backgrounds: shepherds, fishermen, doctors, kings, prophets, and others. And most of these authors never knew one another personally.

Third, these 66 books were written over a period of 1500 years. Yet again, this is another reminder that many of these authors never knew or collaborated with one another in writing these books.

Fourth, the 66 books of the Bible were written in 3 different languages. In the Bible we have books that were written in the ancient languages of Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic; a reflection of the historical and cultural circumstances in which each of these books were written.

And finally, these 66 books were written on 3 different continents: Africa, Asia, and Europe. Once again, this is a testament to the varied historical and cultural circumstances of God's people. Think about the above realities: 66 books, written by 40 different authors, over 1500 years, in 3 different languages, on 3 different continents. What's more, this collection of books shares a common storyline- the creation, fall, and redemption of God's people; a common theme- God's universal love for all of humanity; and a common message- salvation is available to all who repent of their sins and commit to following God with all of their heart, soul, mind and strength. In addition to sharing these commonalities, these 66 books contain no historical errors or contradictions. God's word truly is an amazing collection of writings!

After I had shared the above facts with this student, I offered him the following challenge: I said to him, "If you do not believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, if you do not believe that the Bible is of a supernatural origin, than I challenge you to a test." I said to the student, "I challenge you to go to any library in the world; you can choose any library you like, and find 66 books which match the characteristics of the 66 books in the Bible. You must choose 66 books, written by 40 different authors, over 1500 years, in 3 different languages, written on 3 different continents. However, they must share a common storyline, a common theme, and a common message, with no historical errors or contradictions." I went on to say, "If you can produce such a collection of books, I will admit that the Bible is not the inspired word of God." The student's reply was almost instantaneous, he emphatically stated, "But that's impossible!" "But that's impossible!" It truly is impossible, for any collection of human writings. However, the Bible passes this test. The Bible contains 66 books, written by 40 different authors, over 1500 years, in 3 different languages, on 3 different continents, with no historical errors or contradictions. The entire Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, bears the mark of Divine inspiration.

The next time you encounter someone who asks you why you believe the Bible is the inspired word of God, try sharing this challenge with them. Better yet, don't wait until you're asked, just go ahead and share this challenge with a friend today. You don't even have to mention the Bible up front, just ask them if they think it would be realistic to assemble such a collection of books. After they say, "But that's impossible!" you've got a ready-made opportunity for sharing the truth of God's word with somebody!

[Jan Van]

But the Koran and Mormon bible also built on The Bible. But some don't seem to think those count.

[moda0306]

Mountaineer,

You claim the Bible has no inconsistencies, which is probably a matter of interpretation, but I'd have to disagree.

More obvious though is the historical errors... or the implication of believing that there are none...

Do you really believe every story in the Bible is accurate, historically?  All the Adam & Eve stuff?  Samson & Delilah... with his devine hair?  Jonah & the whale?  Noah building an ark, getting two of every animal on board, and God flooding the Earth?  Moses parting the Red Sea?

I'm sure there's others, and I'm sure you've said this before, but you actually believe all these stories verbatim?

[Mountaineer]

Do you really believe every story in the Bible is accurate, historically?  All the Adam & Eve stuff?  Samson & Delilah... with his devine hair?  Jonah & the whale?  Noah building an ark, getting two of every animal on board, and God flooding the Earth?  Moses parting the Red Sea?

I'm sure there's others, and I'm sure you've said this before, but you actually believe all these stories verbatim?

moda,

Good questions, and very common ones.  God says the accounts you mention are true.  I have no reason to belive I'm smarter than God.  Can I understand how all these things happened, or prove them from science?  No, no more than I can understand how God can "speak" the universe into being, or spit in the mud and rub it on a blind man's eyes and cure his blindness, or how Jesus was resurrected from the dead when we mortals can't even create a live ant or a blade of growing grass.  If I could understand it all, there would not be much reason for faith, would there?  And, without faith, no eternal life with Jesus.  After all the study that I've done, I consider the Bible to be one of the most internally consistent, comforting, and full of truth books that I've ever read.  It is when we try to take things out of context or cherry pick verses without understanding the whole Bible message that we get mislead or into trouble.  I finally have a smidgen of understanding of what Jesus means when he says "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through me".  But, as I've said before, the Bible tells us all we need to know to be saved, just not everything we want to know.

... Mountaineer

Edited to add link and description: 

This is a much longer explanation of the inerrancy and authority of Scripture, see Section IV,  in case my brief answer above is insufficient to answer your questions.

http://www.lcms.org/doctrine/scripturalprinciples

[Mountaineer]

Be ready at all times!  Wing-suiter meets his maker.

http://safeshare.tv/w/kLlmcNCGBk

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

Here are the latest Letters.  Each Letter, a short chapter in the book "What They Need to Hear" by Klemet Preus tends to build on prior material.  They begin with "Preface" in my August 6 post; the preface discusses the purpose of the book.

Letter 42 - True Faith: Knowing God
https://www.dropbox.com/s/53ocl64oz5ceo ... d.pdf?dl=0

Letter 43 - True Faith: Assent
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jmjjbpcdhxlmf ... t.pdf?dl=0

Letter 44 - True Faith: Trust
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fiss6x2b7gsvp ... t.pdf?dl=0

Tomorrow, the Letters will discuss "rationalism" and "reason" - suitable topics for the intelligencia of this forum 

... Mountaineer

[doodle]

I was listening to an Alan Watts lecture this morning where he made the statement, "all belief in God expresses a lack of faith".... In other words attaching to a "God" has a clinging quality that expresses ones lack of faith in the "grand plan" so to speak. One who is truly at peace wouldn't cling to any book, image, idea etc. they would simply let go. and drift with the stream.

[Mountaineer]

Here are the latest Letters.  Each Letter, a short chapter in the book "What They Need to Hear" by Klemet Preus tends to build on prior material.  They begin with "Preface" in my August 6 post; the preface discusses the purpose of the book.

Letter 45 - American Idol: Reason
https://www.dropbox.com/s/b6drbekwklwp7 ... n.pdf?dl=0

Letter 46 - Rationalism
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7pz9hxpl8f20l ... m.pdf?dl=0

Letter 47 - The Trinity and Reason
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p1rlu5ml1ew1t ... n.pdf?dl=0

... Mountaineer

Tomorrow's topic:  Feelings

[Mountaineer]

Here are the latest Letters.  Each Letter, a short chapter in the book "What They Need to Hear" by Klemet Preus tends to build on prior material.  They begin with "Preface" in my August 6 post; the preface discusses the purpose of the book.

Letter 48 - Americal Idol: Feelings
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kdaorbw314l5t ... s.pdf?dl=0

Letter 49 - The Feelings of Heros
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hqkymd8d9g13e ... s.pdf?dl=0

Letter 50 - Feelings or Suffering?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/pkupaqdcd0nl8 ... F.pdf?dl=0

Tomorrow's topic:  Will

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

Here are the latest Letters.  Each Letter, a short chapter in the book "What They Need to Hear" by Klemet Preus tends to build on prior material.  They begin with "Preface" in my August 6 post; the preface discusses the purpose of the book.

Letter 51 - American Idol: My Will
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jke4j4m2wmser ... l.pdf?dl=0

Letter 52 - Revelation 3:20
https://www.dropbox.com/s/w2qjwirpg4rne ... 0.pdf?dl=0

Letter 53 - Do We Believe in God's Eternal Choice?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rpmf1ppgskzcz ... F.pdf?dl=0

... Mountaineer

Tomorrows topic: Faith

[Mountaineer]

Here are the latest Letters.  Each Letter, a short chapter in the book "What They Need to Hear" by Klemet Preus tends to build on prior material.  They begin with "Preface" in my August 6 post; the preface discusses the purpose of the book.

Letter 54 - American Idol: Faith
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qibdajyj9fyc6 ... h.pdf?dl=0

Letter 55 - The Faith That Jesus Comments - The Centurion
https://www.dropbox.com/s/t57bigosv4p3m ... n.pdf?dl=0

Tomorrow's topic: More on Faith Jesus Commends

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

Here are the latest Letters.  Each Letter, a short chapter in the book "What They Need to Hear" by Klemet Preus tends to build on prior material.  They begin with "Preface" in my August 6 post; the preface discusses the purpose of the book.

Letter 56 - The Faith That Jesus Commends: The Sinful Woman
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nc2cwm8w4b1dd ... 0Woman.pdf

Letter 57 - The Faith That Jesus Commends: The Canaanite Woman
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gehne822y0qkz ... 0Woman.pdf

Letter 58 - The Second Most Important Teaching in the Bible
https://www.dropbox.com/s/s485wm8gtt1b9 ... aching.pdf

Topic for Tomorrow: The Law

... Mountaineer

Note: I am still having trouble with Dropbox in their changes in the way links are sent.  I would appreciate it if someone would let me know if these links open to a readable page.  Thanks.

[Mountaineer]

Here are the latest Letters.  Each Letter, a short chapter in the book "What They Need to Hear" by Klemet Preus tends to build on prior material.  They begin with "Preface" in my August 6 post; the preface discusses the purpose of the book.

Letter 59 - The Law Knocks Us Down - Part One
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1ktylld00r6sy ... wn%201.pdf

Letter 60 - The Law Knocks Us Down - Part Two
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bdx0wuubu6p40 ... wn%202.pdf

Tomorrow's Letters, more on the Law.

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

Here are the latest Letters.  Each Letter, a short chapter in the book "What They Need to Hear" by Klemet Preus tends to build on prior material.  They begin with "Preface" in my August 6 post; the preface discusses the purpose of the book.

Letter 61 - The Law Knocks Us Down: Part Three
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2pn9q2zmih05h ... 3.pdf?dl=0

Letter 62 - The Law Knocks Us Down: Part Four
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gwwl9oysk408v ... 4.pdf?dl=0


Tomorrow:  The Gospel, Miracles

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

Published on Aug 29, 2014
Christians believe in talking snakes and the virgin birth. Penn Jillette wants to know how normal people, who in every other way seem to be reasonable, can believe such crazy things. Pastor Fisk takes a full 30 minutes to address Penn’s honest questions and shows him what the “key”? is to unlock all this apparent craziness.

Doodle, if you are still watching this thread, you might have interest in this episode.  Penn Jillette, an honest atheist, has many of the same "questions about and/or objections" to Christianity that you have expressed. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhgD8IA2 ... l=Revfiskj

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

Here are the latest Letters.  Each Letter, a short chapter in the book "What They Need to Hear" by Klemet Preus tends to build on prior material.  They begin with "Preface" in my August 6 post; the preface discusses the purpose of the book.

Letter 63 - The Gospel
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7huvbgryaargf ... l.pdf?dl=0

Letter 64 - Analyzing Miracles
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ixv160345tpqy ... s.pdf?dl=0

Tomorrow:  Miracles

... Mountaineer

[doodle]

I watched a bit of that video, but I couldn't get past the daily question about whether suicide will prevent one from reaching heaven. He says it comes down to belief....that makes no sense.

I cannot force myself to believe anything anymore than I can force myself to love. I can fake belief, I can pretend but that is just lying.

I'm sorry Mountaineer, Christianity as a dogmatic religion makes no sense to me. I think Jesus was a spiritually enlightened man with some great ideas. I don't believe in all the hocus pocus etc etc. I am an honest and decent person and recognize that I'm not perfect. Although I agree in spirit with many things in the New Testament, I will never buy into the organized Christian religion. It's not in my nature. If it makes you a better person to believe in that stuff I have no problem with that with the exception of one small thing, the fact that you believe God will condemn to eternal hell all those who don't believe exactly as you do. Sorry, that small point right there makes me lose all respect for your beliefs.

[Mountaineer]

I watched a bit of that video, but I couldn't get past the daily question about whether suicide will prevent one from reaching heaven. He says it comes down to belief....that makes no sense.

I cannot force myself to believe anything anymore than I can force myself to love. I can fake belief, I can pretend but that is just lying.

I'm sorry Mountaineer, Christianity as a dogmatic religion makes no sense to me. I think Jesus was a spiritually enlightened man with some great ideas. I don't believe in all the hocus pocus etc etc. I am an honest and decent person and recognize that I'm not perfect. Although I agree in spirit with many things in the New Testament, I will never buy into the organized Christian religion. It's not in my nature. If it makes you a better person to believe in that stuff I have no problem with that with the exception of one small thing, the fact that you believe God will condemn to eternal hell all those who don't believe exactly as you do. Sorry, that small point right there makes me lose all respect for your beliefs.

Doodle,

Thanks for the feedback.  I respect you for caring enough to do that.  The Penn Jillette thing is the bulk of the program and it follows a very short intro on suicide where Fisk refers to the Issues Etc. topic for more detail.  And, for what it is worth, don't pay any attention to what I believe about hell, or for that matter what any human believes about hell; our beliefs are irrelevant as far as you are concerned.  The absolute truth is the only thing that should matter to you.

Have a great Labor Day weekend.

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

A "Top O' The Morning" Labor Day to all you current and former laborers. 

Here are the latest Letters.  Each Letter, a short chapter in the book "What They Need to Hear" by Klemet Preus tends to build on prior material.  They begin with "Preface" in my August 6 post; the preface discusses the purpose of the book.

Letter 65 - Faith in the Blood
https://www.dropbox.com/s/o5sjzhwxogu0m ... d.pdf?dl=0

Letter 66 - If God Can Do One Miracle
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mfnii5t9wh0vj ... ..pdf?dl=0

Letter 67 - Miracles Are Objective
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2gxl9aj8ftyu3 ... e.pdf?dl=0

A quote from Letter 67:  "Christians haven't lost their scientific objectivity - unbelievers have."

Tomorrow:  Creation

... Mountaineer