Why own a gun?

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Pointedstick
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Why own a gun?

Post by Pointedstick »

barrett wrote: I'd be happy to donate. One bit of unaccomplished business I have is that PS is supposed to convince me that gun ownership is a good thing! But that is for another thread.

Drumroll please… gun ownership isn't a good thing; it is highly mixed, and individuals must determine for themselves whether it is a net benefit for them. I used to be really gung-ho about guns but I've mellowed a lot. After a couple of years of going through other hobbies, moving, and having kids, I feel like now my position is a lot less firm than it was before.

Now, this is a forum for libertarian-leaning PP owners, so I'm going to approach this predominately from an individual perspective, not whether or not my ownership of guns is bad for society at large. Lots of things I do may be bad for society. My use of a gasoline-powered motor vehicle and consumption of natural gas, for example, and my purchase of factory-farmed animal meat. The list goes on. No question. But those would be irrelevant to a discussion of the merits of personal car ownership, which furnace is best, or the health benefits of humanely-raised animal meat. Same with guns. I'm also going to assume that if you're asking the question at all, that shooting as a hobby doesn't have real appeal to you. So I won't talk about how much fun the hobby is.


Let's start: guns are a pain in the neck to own. They're dangerous weapons, and hold inherent interest for thieves and children, so you have to devise a way to secure them from these people while simultaneously leaving them accessible enough for use in an emergency. This turns out to be a surprisingly difficult task, because burglars can easily destroy a weak safe, while children have all the time in the world to try out all the combinations on the lock (especially popular Simplex locks, which allow fast access but only have about 1,000 possible combinations) or disable the lock on a cheap, poorly-designed safe. Storage of all the associated stuff is a pain, too. Ammo is heavy. Cleaning supplies are dangerous chemicals. Etc. Owning more than a few guns becomes a storage and security nightmare, especially if your guns require many different calibers, which means more ammo, different sets of cleaning tools, etc.

Guns are also expensive. Typically $400-1500 each after taxes and fees, and ammunition is a lot pricier than you might expect. $0.20 per round, and often more… often much more for large calibers and premium defense or hunting ammunition. So actually shooting them is expensive too. Same with going to the range. Picture $10 an hour or more, and you'll have to drive there, often 20-40 minutes each way since shooting ranges aren't exactly common and they're typically far away from population centers or zoned into the bad parts of town where you hopefully don't live (for underground ranges in urban areas). Each range trip can easily cost $100 or more counting gas, wear-and-tear on your car, ammo, and range fees. If you don't have a car, it's even more annoying, because many cities ban guns (even secured guns in locked cases) on public transit for some reason, and even if they don't, you'll be obviously traveling with a gun and and any low-lives riding with you may try to follow you when you get off and steal it. It's locked in a case, remember? You're not going to be able to use it to protect yourself against such an attack; you'd better be concealed-carrying another gun!

In many ways, the gun-free life is simpler and cheaper. You don't have these expenses or worries.


So why own a gun? Simple. If you feel that the advantages outweigh these drawbacks. What are the advantages? There's really only one: a gun offers you the best chance to save your life or the lives of people you care about (or who are under your protection) if you have one available when someone else wants to injure or kill you or others. Against a serious attack, martial arts, improvised weapons, small knives, or pepper spray are a joke. Only a gun has the power to instantly and reliably halt an imminent attack before it even begins or disable the attacker once it has started.

Obviously, one's risk of being the victim of violence is a highly personal determination. Some people worry a lot about physical violence and others don't at all. Some people live in "safe" neighborhoods and others don't. Some people have relatively risky lifestyles and other people are troglodytic turtles. And so on. But the fact remains: at some point in your life, someone might just try to hurt to kill you, or your wife, or your husband, or your children, or your friend who you're out having tea with. It can happen. It's not likely, but it's possible. Because it happens to people all the time. People who thought they weren't going to be targeted or become victims. People who see the best in others, people who don't think about danger and risks, people who didn't deserve it. If your number comes up, and you're without a firearm, you have a much, much higher chance of being dead meat than if you are well-armed. If you have a family, the odds go up; 4 people are 4 times as likely to have on of them become the victim of violent crime as a single person. How would you feel if a member of your family was victimized and you were unable to prevent it?

It's a real fat tail risk: unlikely, but devastating if it happens. And if you use the PP, you already know how dangerous un-prepared-for fat tail risks can be. Now it's true that hedging against them can be a pain. Physical gold ownership has many of the same problems as gun ownership, for example. And our asset allocation can be costlier and more complicated compared to a simple two-fund stock/bond portfolio. But it's worth it to us because we worry about those fat tail risks. It's for this very reason that I own firearms. A physical attack against myself, my family, or my friends (while in my company) may be exceptionally unlikely, but if it did happen, and I was helpless to stop it, I don't think I could forgive myself--if I survived in the first place.
Last edited by Pointedstick on Tue May 05, 2015 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why own a gun?

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I've mellowed a lot on the gun issue also, but from the other direction.  I used to be very anti-guns, but now I have lots of friends with guns, and I'm starting to feel that they are not so bad if treated with the proper respect.  That said, I still don't see myself ever owning a gun.  I figure if anyone ever breaks into my house and threatens my family, they are going to have to use whatever gun they have to stop me from beating them to a pulp, and for their sake, they better have a big one. 

One other point I want to bring into this discussion is mental health.  From what (little) I've read, suicides are more common when firearms are around.  That's one reason I won't own a gun.  I coudn't forgive myself if I came home one day and my teenage kid had killed himself with it, just because they were feeling down.  I remember being a teenager.  It's not always easy.  If my family had had guns around when I was that age, I'm not 100% sure I would be here writing this.
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Re: Why own a gun?

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stuper1 wrote: I've mellowed a lot on the gun issue also, but from the other direction.  I used to be very anti-guns, but now I have lots of friends with guns, and I'm starting to feel that they are not so bad if treated with the proper respect.  That said, I still don't see myself ever owning a gun.  I figure if anyone ever breaks into my house and threatens my family, they are going to have to use whatever gun they have to stop me from beating them to a pulp, and for their sake, they better have a big one.
The problem with this kind of chest-beating machismo is that it's not representative of reality. If someone has a gun and you attack them with your bare hands--especially if you are not a trained fighter--there's like a 95% chance that you're just going to get yourself killed. It's easy to imagine ourselves rising to the occasion in such a scenario but such things are rare. Guns beat fists. A lot of men like to imagine that if their house was broken into they would be able to pick up a baseball bat or a frying pan or something to beat back the attacker. For the most part it's just not true, and it comes from a position of insecurity IMHO--you imagine the situation, and you envision how terrifying it would be to be helpless in the face of such an attack, so you want to imagine you would have the capacity to do something, but for other reasons, you can't imagine having a firearm, so your mind tries to convince you that you don't need one. But your mind is lying to you. You probably do need one if the situation you're imagining came to pass.

stuper1 wrote: One other point I want to bring into this discussion is mental health.  From what (little) I've read, suicides are more common when firearms are around.  That's one reason I won't own a gun.  I coudn't forgive myself if I came home one day and my teenage kid had killed himself with it, just because they were feeling down.  I remember being a teenager.  It's not always easy.  If my family had had guns around when I was that age, I'm not 100% sure I would be here writing this.
It's true. This is why secure storage is so important. You need to make the guns more dangerous to potential attackers than they are to actual friends and family members. It's definitely possible, but like I said, it's not the easiest or cheapest thing in the world, and you need to put some real thought into it.
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Re: Why own a gun?

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Each person has to weigh the various risks and decide what's best for them.

I'm not quite following your reasoning around the word "insecurity".  IMHO, gun ownership is more often associated with insecurity than the other way around.  I'm secure in two facts.  First, I don't want a gun around.  Second, I don't need a gun around; nor do I need a baseball bat or a frying pan; my bare hands will do just fine.  I guess what I'm saying is that I'd rather die fighting for my family than see myself or someone I love die in a gun accident. 
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Re: Why own a gun?

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As many people much smarter than me have observed, people are so stupid about risk.  If you really want to decrease your risks in life, there are two main things to do.  One, eat a healthy diet and get lots of exercise.  Two, drive very defensively; your odds of dying in a crash double for every 10 mph over 50 mph.

I imagine that the risk of you or a family member being killed in a homicide is on the order of, or probably less, than the risk that one of you will be hurt in a gun accident/suicide.  If you want to own a gun, go for it, but I imagine that most people own them because they enjoy shooting them, rather than due to an accurate calculation of the risks involved.

I don't like guns.  Nor do I like motorcycles.  Unfortunately, I do like driving fast in cars, and I do like junk food, so I have my own issues to work on.
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Re: Why own a gun?

Post by sixdollars »

Dan Carlin has some interesting views on this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vxf9XBevkQ&t=6m0s
Last edited by sixdollars on Tue May 05, 2015 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why own a gun?

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stuper1 wrote: As many people much smarter than me have observed, people are so stupid about risk.  If you really want to decrease your risks in life, there are two main things to do.  One, eat a healthy diet and get lots of exercise.  Two, drive very defensively; your odds of dying in a crash double for every 10 mph over 50 mph.

I imagine that the risk of you or a family member being killed in a homicide is on the order of, or probably less, than the risk that one of you will be hurt in a gun accident/suicide.
You're mostly right. From 1998-2003, the homicide rate was 5.85 per 100k people, and the rate of gun suicide was 5.92 per 100k people. The rate of gun accidents, on the other hand was only 0.22 per 100k. The risk is suicide, not accident.

http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_us.html

Obviously these are averages; statistically, if you're black, the risk of homicide is greater, and if you're male, then the risk of suicide is greater. There's some interesting data there.

And you're right that this is an individual thing. Personally, I don't see suicide as a "risk;" I see it as the tragic end to a long process that could be stopped anywhere along the way in any number of ways. Homicide, on the other hand, can be truly random.
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Re: Why own a gun?

Post by FarmerD »

I seem to be the only libertarian here who refuses to have a gun in the house.  If I felt the need for greater home security I would much rather have a peppers spray gun like the one linked below.  There are many problems with a gun in the house.  As noted above, if you have kids you're supposed to store the gun and the ammo separately or have the gun locked in a safe.  In either case this means it's not immediately available to you in a crisis when seconds count. 

Just as important is the hesitation factor.  Suppose some intruder stumbles in our house, do you shoot him immediately?  Or are you worried you might be shooting the neighbors drunken teenager who bumbled into he wrong house.  The hesitation may cost you your life if it's a bad guy or if you react too fast you may shoot the teen neighbor.  With the pepper spray blaster you won't be causing permanent injury so there need be no hesitation.  Blast him.  The intruder will be incapacitated, then call the cops and let them sort it out.  And with the pepper spray there is no need to secure it from the kids - just leave it on the bedstand or by the door where it's instantly available for use.  Also it's well known people inexperienced (most wives) with a gun will panic, fire blindly, and miss.  With the pepper spray fogger, you only have to aim in the general direction of the intruder to take him out. 
   
http://www.thehomesecuritysuperstore.co ... shu-sub=61
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Re: Why own a gun?

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For some reason I've decided that my trap shooting hobby is both 1) something I can do as a schmoozy career-networking type of activity (sounds smarmy, but that's how the real world works), and 2) replaces golf (which I suck at), so I actually look at my gun ownership as a net positive financially for me, but that's probably mostly very convenient rationalization hard at work.

I think at the very least, a 12-gauge shotgun can be a no-brainer for someone who isn't stressed about gun ownership, as it:

1) has pretty cheap ammo (that you can reload yourself, if you want to buy the setup)

2) Can shoot either slugs for deer or bird shot for birds... although somebody raised the great point that if we really do have an EOTW scenario, there won't be a deer or bird in sight.  People would CLEAN them out. 

3) Is fun as hell to go shoot trap with.

4) Is at least serviceable at defending your room, and possibly your home (though I think most people here are right that an AR would be far more ideal).

5) They're cheap... you can get a decent one for like $300 last time I checked.

6) They're probably the least likely to come under government fire.

7) They speak "I'm a man" to your conservative friends without scaring your wife and your liberal friends. (for what this is worth)


And for those trying to preserve the 2nd Amendment, I truly believe that getting non-gun-owning fence-sitters to try trap shooting (or perhaps tagging along on a hunting trip, if they're so inclined) is the BEST way to do your little part to reduce the fear and distrust of gun-enthusiasts.  I know I've converted some downright anti-gun gals I know into excited-to-go-trap-shooting enthusiasts who are now much more tribally aligned to be sympathetic to the concerns of gun enthusiasts.

I still think the teen suicide thing should be a concern for parents (not government... parents).  For all the "if someone wants to kill themselves, they'll find a way to do it" banter out there, I think there's a lot more to whether someone is actually going to be motivated to do the final deed.  Teenagers do go through a lot of emotional drama, and whether they should put the emotional weight that they do on their social status in middle school or high school.  I'm not sure what the perfect solution is, if you also want them to have respect and knowledge of guns.

I wonder what the rate of teen suicide with a gun at home is compared to the rate of successful defense of a home invasion by using a gun is... not trying to imply a gov't policy preference here... just analyze it from a family risk standpoint.
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Re: Why own a gun?

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moda0306 wrote: I wonder what the rate of teen suicide with a gun at home is compared to the rate of successful defense of a home invasion by using a gun is... not trying to imply a gov't policy preference here... just analyze it from a family risk standpoint.
According to the CDC, between the years of 1999-2013, 11,399 people aged 15-19 killed themselves with firearms, for a rate of 3.59/100k. That's actually less that I would have expected; less than 1,000 per year in a country with more than 310 million people living in it.

I don't know of any source for the number of home invasions over this time period, let alone the number that were successfully resisted using firearms. According to this dubious source, there were 3,600,000 home invasions per year between 1994 and 2000. If we assume that figure is inflated by 100x (!), that still means 36,000 per year, or 36 times as many home invasions as successful teen gun suicides.
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Re: Why own a gun?

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And of course those are just averages; not every teen has an equal risk of being suicidal and not every house has an equal risk of being invaded. The risk of me being suicidal as a teen was basically zero, for example, but my sister had suicidal tendencies for a period of time. Being a teenager--especially a girl--is rough. If I had a suicidal kid, I'm quite sure that I would remove all the firearms from the house during that period of time or keep them in the kind of safe that not even CSI could get open.
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Re: Why own a gun?

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PS,

Thanks for doing the easy digging I refused to. 

I find that shocking (so few suicides).  I personally knew (acquaintences, not friends), at least a handful of people who have shot themselves.  All within that timeframe.  A couple in highschool, a distant cousin, a friend's dad (lost a bunch of money in the stock market and home value in 2008), a quasi-friend in college, a super wealthy early-retired paranoid investor (conservative paranoia pretty much drove him to suicide.  Left behind a pregnant wife and young kid.  Sad as hell.).  I almost can't believe that nation-wide there have only been 11,000 of these events.

The other statistic also seems a bit skewed, but you realized that and allowed for it very richly. :)

I still question a reasonable ability to defend your home in a break-in scenario.  You're either 1) not there, 2) not able to get your gun before the guy gets you, or 3) you get it and fail.  Now obviously this doesn't mean "don't get a gun" or "don't develop a gun-based contingency."  It just means that we have more work to do if we REALLY want to reduce our ultimate exposure to the catastrophic consequences a break-in.  Of course, it's a lot less fun if you're a gun-enthusiast to pay $600 per year for a security system or buy better doors for your home as it is to use that $600 once to buy an AR-15. :)

I'm sure there's probably a good source on the best ways to prevent exposure to violence (theft is negligible to me.  It's the risk of harm to my person that truly concerns me.  Theft is usually minimal or insured against.  I'm not going to go Rambo for a flat screen).

It'd be interesting to see a tree of all the scenarios and statistics that present themselves.  Like a sweet infographic.

Get on that, would you? :)
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Re: Why own a gun?

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Source: http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_us.html

Those 11,000 gun suicides are only of teenagers. The number of gun suicides during that time period for ALL age groups is a shockingly higher 270,000. Wow. Breaking it down by age, it looks like the gross number of suicides peaks at age 50-54 (26,640 total during that time period, with a rate of 8.70/100k) and the rate peaks at age 80-84 (11,050 total during that time period, with a rate of 13.37/100k).

And that's only with guns, which account for about half of all successful suicides. If you add in all the other methods, then the highest rate of suicide belongs to the 50-54 age group.

Not at all what I would have expected. A lot of depressed middle-aged and elderly people. Not the kind of thing you can really prevent by keeping guns out of your home since you may be the owner yourself. And the other half of people who manage to kill themselves don't use guns and manage to get the job done. Sad stuff all around, but it doesn't exactly make me feel like guns are this humongous teen suicide risk factor--especially when properly secured.

As for violent home invasions, again it's the kind of thing where I feel like having a gun available just can't hurt. Maybe it won't help you, but it's probably not going to hurt. And yes, other methods are definitely preferred. Reinforced doors, motion-sensitive lights, a loud dog and something as simple as a door alarm system that just makes noise are probably going to protect you more from this risk than an AR-15.

To be completely honest, writing all these posts on this thread has made me reconsider whether I should own any long guns. I'm not going to get rid of my pistol any time soon because its small size makes it easy to secure, and I can carry it around with me outside the house, which especially makes me feel more secure when I'm conducting Craigslist transactions with strangers that may involve hundreds of dollars worth of money and goods changing hands.

But none of the long guns can do that, and I've sort of gotten out of the hobby due to lack of time and its high cost. I wish we lived closer and could go trap shooting. That would be a blast. ;D My AR-15, if I'm really honest with myself, is the kind of thing that is only likely to be useful in a SHTF situation, but in that case, I could easily build an AR-15 pistol that's much smaller, more compact, easier to maneuver, and easier to secure, with 90% of the hitting power and range.
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Re: Why own a gun?

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PS,

How much are you charging for those pistols!!??

If we ever do have a PP party, we ought to work in some sporting clay shooting!

BTW, I recently had a trip to Cabo in Mexico... then proceeded to drive 1.5 hours east along the coast to my uncle's place in a small gringo town.  Did a lot of mountain biking in the desert.  I'm starting to fall in love with the dry hot days and cool nights!  Sorta jealous of your New Mexico pad.

Similar to our survivalist threads, though, it appears that that while a gun can be useful, it's a pretty over-romanticized option over simply having good neighbors in a good neighborhood, and having truly preventative measures in place (dog, alarm, reinforced doors, and lights!).  It's good to include, but is probably well-behind other planning considerations that will be of higher effectiveness.
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Re: Why own a gun?

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Desert wrote: Wow, 270K suicides.  That's a lot higher than I would have guessed also. 

That got me wondering about Japan's suicide rate, known to be one of the highest in the world, despite their gun-free society. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... icide_rate

The U.S. is number 30 on this list.  Note that male suicide rate is much higher than female.  I've read in the past that the number of attempts is similar, but that men have a higher "success" rate. 

Anyway, back to guns:  It would be interesting to see if there is any correlation between gun ownership rates and suicide rates.  By a quick glance at the countries on this list though, I'm guessing there is no positive correlation.
My understanding is that the greatest correlation with suicide risk is divorce, for males. Not for females, though, where being divorced doesn't increase suicide risk.
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Re: Why own a gun?

Post by Libertarian666 »

MangoMan wrote:
Libertarian666 wrote:
Desert wrote: Wow, 270K suicides.  That's a lot higher than I would have guessed also. 

That got me wondering about Japan's suicide rate, known to be one of the highest in the world, despite their gun-free society. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... icide_rate

The U.S. is number 30 on this list.  Note that male suicide rate is much higher than female.  I've read in the past that the number of attempts is similar, but that men have a higher "success" rate. 

Anyway, back to guns:  It would be interesting to see if there is any correlation between gun ownership rates and suicide rates.  By a quick glance at the countries on this list though, I'm guessing there is no positive correlation.
My understanding is that the greatest correlation with suicide risk is divorce, for males. Not for females, though, where being divorced doesn't increase suicide risk.
Are you sure those stats are for suicide and not murder?  :P
Yep. The murder would be instead of the divorce, not after it. :P
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