Pros and Cons of Living/Moving to California

[Greg]

I was reading this topic which veered off into speaking about California and it piqued my interest

http://gyroscopicinvesting.com/forum/ot ... class/120/

I myself have for a long whiles been fascinated in California as a state versus a lot of other states in the U.S. To me, it always seems when you meet someone that says "I'm from California", that it's met with positiveness and a bunch of questions (or at least it would be from me, a reasonably rural Pennsylvanian.)

I was thinking about potentially moving to La Mesa near San Diego in California for the nice weather all-year round for growing organic vegetables and such in the garden. Also my wife certainly wouldn't mind having warm weather (but not hot) all year round. This would be further from actual cities to ideally lower the costs of housing, even though San Diego of the major cities in California isn't one of the most expensive.

Also, as an engineer, I would think perhaps there is a good chance of finding a lot of engineering jobs out on the west coast. Not sure if there a bunch of things that I'm not thinking of that would make moving to the West Coast a poor idea, or things I'm not thinking about that are awesome reasons to move out there. Note though that most of my family on both my parent's sides and the wife's sides are in PA and NJ respectively.

Thanks for your thoughts!

UPDATE: Also if it helps for the topic, my wife and are are both in our late 20s, both white non-hispanic, and intending on having a kiddie or two in the next 5 years.

[Pointedstick]

For California in general:

Pros:
* Excellent private sector job opportunities in certain fields and certain locations (e.g. tech -> bay area; porn -> L.A; construction & contracting -> anywhere there are rich people with flimsy houses i.e. everywhere)
* Weather that many people seem to like.
* Beautiful terrain: there are beaches, mountains, forests, and abundant opportunities for skiing, fishing, hunting, etc.
* Food: very fresh produce and seafood, and great authentic Asian food available
* The good neighborhoods have some of the best public schools in the whole country
* Young, hip, college-educated crowd if you stick to the coasts. A major turn-on to many. I'm told the dating scene is good (irrelevant to me, and apparently you too).

Cons:
* Much higher cost of housing the closer you get to any of the good jobs and the more you want to be in a decent neighborhood
* High taxes and fees for everything related to the government. High income tax, high sales tax, high property tax, high car taxes, etc.
* Commuting is horrendously bad
* Laws are generally more restrictive about everything. Check out http://freedominthe50states.org/overall/california
* Extremely heavy political polarization; the coasts are dark blue, and the rest of the state is dark red, and they hate each other
* If you are white, you may have trouble fitting in with your neighbors in many places. In the bay area, most people are Indian or East asian. In L.A. and the vicinity, most people are Hispanic. I lived in a place where a substantial minority of people only spoke Chinese or Hindi or another non-English language, and were therefore impossible to communicate with and get to know.


As an engineer, your best job prospects are likely to be in the bay area, not San Diego. Don't move out there to find a job; get hired while you're still in PA. The firms out there are desperate. I was hired while I was living in New York. If you've got the skills, they'll be practically begging for you, and will pay for your move as well. Be prepared by be staggered by your starting salary as well as the cost of a one-bedroom apartment.

[Tyler]

+Cultural diversity is high.  -Despite the self-congratulatory labeling, tolerance is painfully low.  People are quite judgmental and overly political (I would NEVER eat that / say that / believe that and YOU should not, either).

+There are some very beautiful neighborhoods with great walkscores.  -Housing is insanely expensive.  Like clinically insane.  And the homeowners actively keep it that way, repeatedly blocking new development (especially in NorCal). 

+The coastal areas are absolutely beautiful with lots of outdoor activities.  -To afford living there, you are probably a dual income family working late hours and may not have much time to get outside.

+Lots of engineering jobs and high salaries, with a culture that supports job hopping.  -The average job duration for an engineer in Silicon Valley is less than two years.  It's great when you like change, but after a while the treadmill wears you out and it also makes it difficult to build friendships.

+Lots of parks.  -Lots of taxes, and always growing.  Note that when they recently raised the highest state capital gains tax, they also took the opportunity to make the hike retroactive and nobody flinched. 

......

For me, I think moving to California is like buying a boat.  The two best days of owning one are the day you buy it and the day you sell it.  When I first announced I was taking a job out there, an old boss (who lived there for a while) told me that "everyone should live in California for five years."  In retrospect, I think that's exactly right. 

The vibe out there is unquestionably energetic.  The things I experienced are fun and memorable.  My career took off by leaps and bounds in ways that it never would have before.  But over time, I found the overall culture to be unsustainable on an individual level.  It wore me out.  Today I'm happy to visit California, but I'm no longer as keen on living there. 

On a positive note, I feel like I played the career arbitrage game extremely well.  Moving from Texas to California, I doubled my salary in a few short years and gained skills that I could not have received elsewhere. And when I left California for Texas five years later, my salary fell by only a small amount while my expenses were cut in half.  Ultimately, I likely would not be financially independent today had I not made both decisions.  I wouldn't change a thing.

[flyingpylon]

For me, I think moving to California is like buying a boat.  The two best days of owning one are the day you buy it and the day you sell it.  When I first announced I was taking a job out there, an old boss (who lived there for a while) told me that "everyone should live in California for five years."  In retrospect, I think that's exactly right.

This is funny because I lived in California for five years ('93 - '98) and I would totally agree!  Though I enjoyed my time there and did very well career-wise, I got extremely tired of the constant crush of people and the high cost of just about everything.

I moved to the Indianapolis area in '98 for a job with a start-up and have been here ever since (though I work for a much different company now).  Haven't missed California at all really, and have only been back for business a few times since then.

If someone is interested in moving to California for some period of time to have the experience and understands what they're getting into, then I say go for it.  But keep a next step in mind in the event it doesn't work out for various reasons.

[Pointedstick]

That's funny, I was there for almost five years as well. Seems that's about the maximum length of time a person can stand it who is not a natural Californian.

[Stewardship]

My family is from Southern California and I was born and raised there (San Bernardino and Victorville.)  I would never move back.  Mostly because of the cons that Pointedstick listed.  Primarily government run amok, which can be blamed for just about any problem there.  One example is water shortages.  There is also a great exodus from California, which is never a good sign.

[Libertarian666]

I think the answer to the original question is that California is a great place to be from.

[WildAboutHarry]

if you want jobs bring skills, education, and experience, unskilled labor is getting hard to find (full time is becoming an employment dinosaur) and the pay for it is awful compared to the cost of living.. a work your way up from the bottom learn and grow on the job type of employment has also become very elusive...

Yes to all of the above.

I'm a second-generation California native, and my most recent sentence began in 1991.  Went from CA to NC, TX, IA, NM, and then back to CA.  I am in transition out of CA for WA.

Victor Davis Hanson has written extensively on how screwed up things are in CA, especially contrasting the Central Valley to the coastal communities.

The place is overtaxed, over-regulated, intolerant, provincial, etc.

The weather is nice.

[Greg]

Thanks to all for the replies thus far. This is giving me a lot of food for thought for potential moves out there. I've also toyed with the fact that since I'm a civilian working for the federal government, that I could always transfer to a job out in California for a few years, then when I get bored/want to get closer to family again when kiddies come along, I could transfer back to an east coast job.

I'm also interested a lot in the biotech/biomedical field, and San Diego at least has a large assortment of Medical manufacturing companies down there.

I'd certainly also consider other places other than California if I could find a nice Mediterranean climate area for most of the year.

[WildAboutHarry]

Greg,

I live/lived in the Sacramento area.  I wouldn't say it is a "nice Mediterranean climate" during summer, but it isn't too bad.  Semi-big city (at least an NBA team), relatively reasonable housing costs (compared to San Diego, LA, or the Bay Area), and good geography (2 hours to the Bay Area, 2 hours to Tahoe).  Foothills are nice as well (Grass Valley, Nevada City, Placerville, etc.).

Of all the places I've lived, I would choose Texas.  Wife played the trump card on me, however.

What kind of an engineer are you?

[Greg]

Greg,

I live/lived in the Sacramento area.  I wouldn't say it is a "nice Mediterranean climate" during summer, but it isn't too bad.  Semi-big city (at least an NBA team), relatively reasonable housing costs (compared to San Diego, LA, or the Bay Area), and good geography (2 hours to the Bay Area, 2 hours to Tahoe).  Foothills are nice as well (Grass Valley, Nevada City, Placerville, etc.).

Of all the places I've lived, I would choose Texas.  Wife played the trump card on me, however.

What kind of an engineer are you?

What type of trump card from your wife?

I've been interested in Texas too. I'm interested for my wife and I to be able to have a nice vegetable garden and having it not get too hot during the summer, not be too humid, and not be freezing cold during the winters.

As for my education, is a bachelors and masters in mechanical engineering (Penn State and Georgia Tech respectively) and I just happen to like focusing on biomedical/biomechanical-based products like exoskeletons, prothetics, orthotics, medical equipment, etc. Mechanical structures that ultimate benefit humans to add value to their lives gives me so much enjoyment.

[Tyler]

Texas has a pretty robust collection of medical device companies.  Probably not as many as SoCal but plenty to keep you busy.  Winters are nice, but if heat is a concern Texas in general will take some getting used to.  I'd personally avoid Houston because of the humidity. 

[Libertarian666]

Texas has a pretty robust collection of medical device companies.  Probably not as many as SoCal but plenty to keep you busy.  Winters are nice, but if heat is a concern Texas in general will take some getting used to.  I'd personally avoid Houston because of the humidity.

Yes, I have said many times that if Houston wants a scary sports team name, "Houston Humidity" would do the job, at least for anyone who has spent any time there!

[Tortoise]

Greg,

I've lived in California my whole life. Mainly Southern California, a couple of years in the Bay Area, and currently on the Central Coast. My brother has lived in San Diego for years. I might be moving to San Diego later this year.

I really like Southern California. If I had to boil it down, there are three main reasons: (1) Mediterranean-style weather, (2) lots of entertainment options, and (3) proximity to family and friends. I'll elaborate a little on each of these.

First, the weather. You can't beat it. Southern California coastal weather is wonderfully sunny and mild, basically Mediterranean-style. Notice I said coastal; that's key. If you go more than a few miles inland from the ocean, it rapidly becomes hot and dry since most of California is a desert like Nevada and Arizona. If you want Mediterranean-style weather, you'll need to make sure you live within maybe 4 or 5 miles of the ocean. Those neighborhoods tend to be populated by well-educated white and Asian people, have low crime, and are quite expensive. The hotter, more affordable inland neighborhoods have large, poor Hispanic populations and often have gang problems, graffiti, and trash in the gutters--i.e., they look very much like parts of Mexico, if you've ever visited that country. So yeah... stay near the coast, and you're good.

Second, the entertainment options. Just about all parts of Southern California are within a 1- or 2-hour drive of each other. For outdoorsy types, there are beaches, mountains, forests, and deserts and all the activities that go along with them. And if you like cities and being around other people, there are tons of good restaurants, bars and pubs, comedy clubs, theaters, concerts, malls, etc. Southern California is very densely populated, so you can find that stuff everywhere.

Third, proximity to family and friends. Unlike the previous two items, this one pertains specifically to my own situation. So it's not really a general benefit, but rather an important factor that everyone should consider. My wife and I moved away from Southern California a couple of years ago to pursue a job opportunity, but after we moved, it quickly became apparent that my wife really missed her parents and cousins--especially her parents since she's an only child. And it steadily got worse, not better. Almost entirely because of that, we're planning on moving back down to Southern California fairly soon.

As far as the negatives: Yes, the traffic is legendarily bad, but if you live fairly close to where you work (perhaps sacrificing some space or certain amenities in order to do so), you won't have to spend so much time in it. Yes, housing is a lot more expensive and taxes are higher, but salaries are also higher and there are a lot more job opportunities than in flyover country. Yes, there are lots of gang-infested areas, but the good and bad areas of California are very segregated and it's easy to steer clear of the bad ones once you know where they are.

This goes for any location, not just San Diego, but I highly recommend visiting the area in person before deciding to move there. Drive around, walk around, see what the people and general vibe are like, see what the entertainment options are like, see what the rush hour traffic is like, etc. My wife and I visited Silicon Valley a few years ago when I was interviewing for a job there, and I turned down the offer because we just didn't get a good vibe from the area. After spending a few days there, we just felt very "meh" about the whole valley and didn't want to move there. So we were very glad we went to check it out in person.

[WildAboutHarry]

[quote=1NV35T0R (Greg)]What type of trump card from your wife? [/quote]

Something like, "You can go to Texas...alone."  And she liked Texas.  Her family is mostly located on the west coast, though.

[barrett]

What type of trump card from your wife?

Something like, "You can go to Texas...alone."  And she liked Texas.  Her family is mostly located on the west coast, though.

WAH, You are confusing 'trump card' with 'opportunity'!

Greg, This has been implied in earlier posts but if you like to see stuff grow (you mentioned that a garden is important to you), keep in mind that most of SoCal is heartbreakingly dry for years at a time.

[ochotona]

Speaking seismologically, the threat of earthquakes is underestimated by almost all. It is the "black swan" in this case. The vast majority of people would survive a California earthquake, due to building codes... and most of them in the affected areas would end up bankrupted. Earthquakes will be life-destroyers for a few, and wealth destroyers for many.

[WildAboutHarry]

[quote='Sacramento News 10']A bill to allow "beer bikes" to operate on city streets in California would also give cities a green light to decide if alcohol is allowed on board.

The bill passed the state Senate unanimously Monday and was moving on to the assembly.

"Our real hope is that people can sample a little bit of beer while they're on the bike and just sample local stuff." said Sac Brew Bike owner Chris Ferrin-Cirino Monday.

The bill, sponsored by State Senator Richard Pan, (D) Sacramento, would bring uniform regulations for the design and operation of the bikes.

"The purpose of this bill is actually to set standards to ensure people are safe," Pan said. "There would be someone who's actually driving the bike who's paying attention to the road. There's someone involved who's serving, who, of course, monitors the passengers on there."

Passengers have long complained they can't sip a beer or another alcoholic drink while riding the bikes from pub to pub.

"Not all of us have enough time to drink it at the bar, so getting back on the bike and drinking while we're pedaling would be cool," said Kimberly Gonzalez of Ridgecrest, as she sat sipping a brew on her second stop of the day.

"People have asked why we can't. You know, limousines do it, party buses do it...so why not have us be able to have a little bit of beer on the bike," Ferren-Cirino said.

Ferren-Cirino started out with just one beer bike a year ago and now has three. He's thinking of adding another soon.

"People love it. People want to celebrate birthdays, bachelor parties, graduations," he said. "We're drawing people from the Bay Area. We're drawing people from San Francisco, who are coming to visit us in Sacramento."

Senate Bill 530 is not expected to face opposition in the assembly.[/quote]

I may have to reconsider moving out of the state.

[Libertarian666]

A bill to allow "beer bikes" to operate on city streets in California would also give cities a green light to decide if alcohol is allowed on board.

The bill passed the state Senate unanimously Monday and was moving on to the assembly.

"Our real hope is that people can sample a little bit of beer while they're on the bike and just sample local stuff." said Sac Brew Bike owner Chris Ferrin-Cirino Monday.

The bill, sponsored by State Senator Richard Pan, (D) Sacramento, would bring uniform regulations for the design and operation of the bikes.

"The purpose of this bill is actually to set standards to ensure people are safe," Pan said. "There would be someone who's actually driving the bike who's paying attention to the road. There's someone involved who's serving, who, of course, monitors the passengers on there."

Passengers have long complained they can't sip a beer or another alcoholic drink while riding the bikes from pub to pub.

"Not all of us have enough time to drink it at the bar, so getting back on the bike and drinking while we're pedaling would be cool," said Kimberly Gonzalez of Ridgecrest, as she sat sipping a brew on her second stop of the day.

"People have asked why we can't. You know, limousines do it, party buses do it...so why not have us be able to have a little bit of beer on the bike," Ferren-Cirino said.

Ferren-Cirino started out with just one beer bike a year ago and now has three. He's thinking of adding another soon.

"People love it. People want to celebrate birthdays, bachelor parties, graduations," he said. "We're drawing people from the Bay Area. We're drawing people from San Francisco, who are coming to visit us in Sacramento."

Senate Bill 530 is not expected to face opposition in the assembly.

I may have to reconsider moving out of the state.

Just wait until they legalize pot; that can't be more than a few years off. Then they will be able to have "pot bikes" too!

[PP67]

I grew up in Orange County during the early 60's when it was a truly laid-back beach community.  I left in 1978 when it got "too crowded" but my family remained and so I came back to visit at least once a year every year since. 

As far as SoCal goes, I can attest to the previous comments about the incredible Mediterranean weather (second to none if as advised you live within 4-5 miles of the coast), the incredible housing costs (so either have an well paying job or marry a SoCal native), the gridlock traffic (so live where you do not have to take a freeway to commute), the high (and going higher) taxes and extremely intrusive and liberal government (unless you live in Orange County that was once the bastion of John Wayne and the Republican I-got-mine party).  If illegal immigration rights and entitlement are your passion, you will be increasingly comfortable there.  My folks bought their house there in 1965 for $65k and it was sold in 2007 for $1MM…  Obviously, this is no country for old men or young families unless you are extremely fortunate…  Yet, despite all its shortcomings, as long as the summers are hot in Texas and my family and friends still live in SoCal, we will make the annual pilgrimage to the beach to take in the best of what remains.  My long-term goal when I retire is to spend the 4 hottest months in SoCal but retain our primary residence in Texas for the other 8 months where most my kids are now settling down…

[MachineGhost]

* Excellent private sector job opportunities in certain fields and certain locations (e.g. tech -> bay area; porn -> L.A; construction & contracting -> anywhere there are rich people with flimsy houses i.e. everywhere)

LOL!  LA is actually the entertainment industry.  All those numerous ancillary jobs that aren't for Beautiful A-List Actors have to be filled by someone.

* Weather that many people seem to like.

I understand this is called Mediterranean which basically means its like a dry oven with horrendous glare, oppressive heat (but not as bad as Phoenix where its unwise to go outside) and low humidity...  great for growing olives as in the real Mediterranean, but not for people living in my book.  To keep it tolerable, you must live closer to the coast for the cold ocean air and moisture to tone it down.  And keep global warming in mind...  Vancouver, BC will be like SF today in another decade or two.  Imagine what SF, LA and SD will be like then.  I guess the current tip of Texas is a good indication.  Coastal living is also unbelievably expensive, naturally.  Another major downside is unless you're talking about like mansions in Bel Air (I jest), you don't necessarily get a lot of land/backyard for your house.  On the coast, probably none at all.  Newer houses are built very squeezed together here (townhomes seem to be all the rage lately).  I'm pretty sure the older a house is, the more land will be  associated with it.  Basically, it'll cost you for more land space.

* Beautiful terrain: there are beaches, mountains, forests, and abundant opportunities for skiing, fishing, hunting, etc.

That applies more to NorCal which is not a Mediterranean climate.  The area starting at Ventura or San Luis Obisbo and going north all the way (including SF) to Alaska is whatever the Pacific Northwest terrain is famous for being.  Depending on the location, you must drive or transport several hours to get to anything but a desert and you have to compete with everyone else doing exactly the same thing.  I used to watch CHiPs and I never imagined in my wildest dreams I would ever be living in California in that TV show one day.  The great thing about TV shows is you get to turn it off; not so in reality.

* The good neighborhoods have some of the best public schools in the whole country

Definitely doesn't apply to SoCal at all, except perhaps in the white enclaves (obviously).

As an engineer, your best job prospects are likely to be in the bay area, not San Diego. Don't move out there to find a job; get hired while you're still in PA. The firms out there are desperate. I was hired while I was living in New York. If you've got the skills, they'll be practically begging for you, and will pay for your move as well. Be prepared by be staggered by your starting salary as well as the cost of a one-bedroom apartment.

Beware.  The median home price in the SF area is $1.2 million.

[MachineGhost]

The vibe out there is unquestionably energetic.  The things I experienced are fun and memorable.  My career took off by leaps and bounds in ways that it never would have before.  But over time, I found the overall culture to be unsustainable on an individual level.  It wore me out.  Today I'm happy to visit California, but I'm no longer as keen on living there. 

I wish people wouldn't equate NorCal with "California".  Its a different planet.  But I agree.  Five years then get the hell out.  I've been here 14 years and I can only deal with it by minimizing my exposure to it.

[Greg]

The vibe out there is unquestionably energetic.  The things I experienced are fun and memorable.  My career took off by leaps and bounds in ways that it never would have before.  But over time, I found the overall culture to be unsustainable on an individual level.  It wore me out.  Today I'm happy to visit California, but I'm no longer as keen on living there. 

I wish people wouldn't equate NorCal with "California".  Its a different planet.  But I agree.  Five years then get the hell out.  I've been here 14 years and I can only deal with it by minimizing my exposure to it.

Why would you say North California is a different planet compared to South California?

[Pointedstick]

Northern California has a different climate, different employment environment, different racial composition, and different prevailing culture.

[Greg]

I understand the first three. How would you say it has a different culture?