Figuring Out Islam

[MediumTex]

Let me start by saying that if there are any Muslims here, please feel free to share more about your faith, including how you came to believe in it, what it means in your life, and any doubts you might have about it.

If there are no Muslims who choose to share firsthand experiences, what do the rest of you think about Islam as a world religion, as a path to understanding, or as a political tool used by a variety of interests around the world to keep poor people's anger pointed in the desired direction?

I know plenty of Muslims in my community who are perfectly nice and decent people and I don't really think about their religious beliefs at all.  There are obviously people in other parts of the world who are really scary and who believe that being really scary makes them better Muslims.

[Benko]

1.  Of the two islamic co-workers (other MDs) I've known, one is from Egypt and the worlds nicest guy (as are the other 6 people I've met from Egypt).  I can't imagine him hurting anyone.    The other is from India (perhaps "Kashmir" the part India and ?paksitan fought over historically).  I remember agitated discussions with him during the time of the Mohammed cartoons.  He is a funny and personable guy, but I could easily see him planting bombs himself. 

2.  Spiritually Sufism has wonderful writings (see e.g. Tales of the Dervish) and I've been told that Sufism is part of Islam, but from a quick web search apparently that is controversial.    Hafiz is a wonderful (and wonderfully irreverent) spiritual poet, again perhaps related to islam. 

3.  Res Ipsa Loquitur. 

PS's wife narrowly avoided bodily injury from their child:

"It got to the point where he threw a heavy wooden toy at my wife's head yesterday".   

PS is open minded enough to behave appropriately and resolved the issue.  With respect to islam we are determined not to.

[Libertarian666]

Here's the thing about Islam.  And I mean no disrespect.  But when you really look at it, you'll find that it sucks.

Here's the thing about every major Abrahamic religion: They all suck. In different ways, of course.

2. Spiritually Sufism has wonderful writings (see e.g. Tales of the Dervish) and I've been told that Sufism is part of Islam, but from a quick web search apparently that is controversial. Hafiz is a wonderful (and wonderfully irreverent) spiritual poet, again perhaps related to islam.

glad somebody mentioned Sufism, i didn't know there was debate about it being Islam or not. When i was younger i read a bunch of Sufi story's and descriptions of their mystical practices (Dervish dancing) and found it fascinating beautiful and on par with any spiritual practice, in most ways superior to all the faith based "believer" religions.
On the the other hand Islam is currently with out a doubt the the worst of the faith based belief systems ("believer" religions), it is a total mess of foul political ideology and brainwashing built to turn a low IQ pre-modern world humans violent and make them killers and haters. its hard to see much good or anything spiritual coming from Islam at this point in time...

[Reub]

When it comes to Islam I just take my cues from Obama.

[MediumTex]

When it comes to Islam I just take my cues from Obama.

You kill undesirable Muslims with drones?

[Reub]

Just the ones who aren't "JV".

[screwtape]

Now that I think about it I can't actually recall ever knowing a real Muslim personally. I've been trying to learn a little more about it lately. Amazon Prime has several documentaries that I've put on my Wishlist but I haven't gotten around to watching them yet so I don't know how biased they will be one way or the other.

But overall I have to say I have a very negative view of the religion. Given all that's been happening starting with 9/11 how can anybody not have a negative view? Back then you could at least say that Al Qaeda was just a fringe element not representative of the religion but now that we have the gathering storm of ISIS, I don't know how anybody can think that any more.

[moda0306]

1.  Of the two islamic co-workers (other MDs) I've known, one is from Egypt and the worlds nicest guy (as are the other 6 people I've met from Egypt).  I can't imagine him hurting anyone.    The other is from India (perhaps "Kashmir" the part India and ?paksitan fought over historically).  I remember agitated discussions with him during the time of the Mohammed cartoons.  He is a funny and personable guy, but I could easily see him planting bombs himself. 

2.  Spiritually Sufism has wonderful writings (see e.g. Tales of the Dervish) and I've been told that Sufism is part of Islam, but from a quick web search apparently that is controversial.    Hafiz is a wonderful (and wonderfully irreverent) spiritual poet, again perhaps related to islam. 

3.  Res Ipsa Loquitur. 

PS's wife narrowly avoided bodily injury from their child:

"It got to the point where he threw a heavy wooden toy at my wife's head yesterday".   

PS is open minded enough to behave appropriately and resolved the issue.  With respect to islam we are determined not to.

Who is "we?"

What do you mean by "behave appropriately and resolve the issue?"

[Reub]

What do you mean by what do you mean?

[screwtape]

We'd better figure it out soon....

There are about 11,000 in the U.N. pipeline waiting to come to the U.S.

http://www.wnd.com/2015/06/feds-hammere ... -refugees/

I don't know if refugees have to take the oath of allegiance to the U.S. constitution that those applying for normal citizenship do but one thing I have learned about Islam so far is that Mohammed said it is okay to lie to your enemies so there would probably be no point in having them do this any way.

Wonder how many Tsarnaev's (the Boston Marathon bombing brothers who were also refugees) there are in this group of 11,000?

[Pointedstick]

I knew a few Muslim families growing up. They were throughly Americanized, with a slight Muslim flavor to them, in much the same way that a second-generation Indian immigrant might make a lot of curry and wear traditional Indian garb for family events from time to time. Totally non-threatening. That was many years ago, though. I don't think I've ever knowingly met an actual Muslim since then. But if I think about it, the kind of Muslim who would really scare me is one who clearly has more loyalty to his religion than the other aspects of his life, given how violent Islam can be these days and how many seemingly seductive avenues for radicalization abound online. To me this is a different ballpark from a rigid, extremist Christian or Jew or Hindu or Buddhist or whatever because those religions don't have the violent global terrorist connection. I've known a lot of very devout Christians and Jews who clearly had more loyalty to their religion than their country or even their family, but none of those people ever really gave me the impression that they would murder people over it the way extremist Muslims do.

[moda0306]

What do you mean by what do you mean?

After running a comparison between the actions PS took, I'm assuming there's some action he was suggesting either individuals take or is advocating our government take. 

I am wondering what he is actually advocating on an individual or governmental level. 

[Pointedstick]

What do you mean by what do you mean?

After running a comparison between the actions PS took, I'm assuming there's some action he was suggesting either individuals take or is advocating our government take. 

I am wondering what he is actually advocating on an individual or governmental level.

My post on parenting uh had nothing to do with Islam nor did it contain nor should be taken to imply any societal prescriptions or government policy recommendations. Just sharing an experience.

[Benko]

My post on parenting uh had nothing to do with Islam nor did it contain nor should be taken to imply any societal prescriptions or government policy recommendations. Just sharing an experience.

Of course your post had nothing to with ISlam.  And I apologize if you found my using it in this thread inappropriate.  it just happened to be in my head and also a great example of

A.  realizing one's current way of dealing with an issue is inadequate and looking at alternatives for one which works. and sorry but

B.  realizing that unless you took action your physical well being (or your wife) was in danger and taking action.  I ain't a hawk, but the nature of Islam (see e.g life of Mohammed) is pretty clear and at some point or other it is likely we will have to take action.  And I can't pretend to know what or in what form. 

[moda0306]

Benko,

"We" have been taking action, in the form of secretive, undeclared dirty wars all over the world causing far more innocent deaths than "terrorism" has to us. So I guess I wonder what is in a general thought process that we need to do other than what we are already doing.

My preferred action would be to simply stop Islamic immigration. I can't think of much more that doesn't end up being more of a cost than a benefit and a slap in the face to the rule of law and having a transparent government.

[MachineGhost]

Is there any chance the RIFFF's are emotionally stunted and/or mentally challenged?  I haven't read up on the Boston Bomber's family life (I frankly don't care), but it appears to have been quite dysfunctional.

Violence is always the last refuge when someone's personal power is not able to be expressed productively.  I don't feel the vast majority of Muslims are in that position.  Muslims are not fundamentalists by definition; that belongs to the RIFFF's just as with fundamental Christians or Jews.

Moda, so we're going to start denying refugee status to the persecuted in Arab or African nations even though they're Muslim?  That doesn't seem quite fair.  That's discrimination by religion.  And we already have pretty strict rules about who we allow in; any association or collaboration with persectuion, even innocently, is grounds for denial.  So unless you think judges are overlysympathetic to refugees, I don't see it as a problem that needs to be fixed.

The real problem is our intelligence agencies and immigration policies are simply ineffective.  But that should be no news to anyone.  What government program ever really works all the time?

[screwtape]

And we already have pretty strict rules about who we allow in;

Having strict rules and enforcing them are two different things, especially with Obama when it comes to any form of immigration.

From the website listed below...

13.    A refugee or an asylum seeker must show a “well-founded” fear of persecution on account of a political view or membership in a racial, ethnic, religious or social group.  The definition of a refugee has been widely stretched by all 3 branches of the government – the Judiciary, the Congress and the Administration.

In fact, Congress can name whatever group it wants to be a refugee or asylum seeker.  For instance Congress passed a law declaring China’s one-child policy to be an example of persecution based upon a political view. Not surprising: China now heads up the list of successful asylum seekers.

People may seek asylum in the U.S. based upon domestic abuse, FGM and even lack of services for the disabled.

The government does not publicize rates of admission by category so it is not possible to tell, for instance, if the vague and easy to fake ‘social group’ category is more commonly used than the vague and easy to fake ‘political group’ category.

Because of the privacy rights accorded the new arrivals, we have no idea which category was used by Tamerlane Tsarnaev’s parents to gain admission to the world’s most generous immigration program.

https://refugeeresettlementwatch.wordpr ... ct-sheets/

[Greg]

Coincidentally I was looking up a website the other day for information on why Islam is the true religion (also a tangent to that was trying to determine what "truth" is. Other than Jesus saying is the truth, it's very difficult to find "truth").

http://christiananswers.net/q-aiia/aiia ... bible.html

I was interested in getting more viewpoints as to why someone would believe Islam over Christianity if they believe in an Abrahamic religion. For me, simplistically:

1.) Judaism came first of the three Abrahamic religions, they didn't believe Jesus was the messiah and are still waiting for him. Old School.
2.) Christianity, Jesus came, pronounced going from old school to new school, and Christianity split off of Judaism (with a bunch of splits after that for Orthodox, Catholicism, Protestants, Great Schism, Martin Luther, etc.) Stated that Judaism was incomplete and that Christianity was the now true religion.
3.) Islam, came some 500 years after Christianity started with Mohammed as a prophet. Believed Christianity and Judaism were flawed and that Islam is the true religion and New New School.

So Judaism, Old Testament,
Superseding Judaism by Christianity with the new Testament,
Superceding Christianity with Islam with the new new Testament (Quran, etc.)

I'd like to understand why someone chose Islam over Christianity for instance.

[screwtape]

I'd like to understand why someone chose Islam over Christianity for instance.

If it was like it is in some Muslim countries today you'd better choose Islam over Christianity or they'll chop off your head.

[dualstow]

I always wonder whether moderate Islam will take hold, at least in the West.
Or has it already, and I haven't noticed because the extremists get all the camera time?
I honestly don't know.

it is hard to undo or separate from the right-wing fear mongering.. but the "question a random Muslim" polls and interviews i see conducted in the US seem to point to a surprisingly high acceptance/support of radicalized and decidedly un-western, anti freedom ideas and ideology...

[dualstow]

I do think it will be awhile before mainstream Muslims can be accepting of homosexual relationships. But I have no data to back that up.

it is hard to undo or separate from the right-wing fear mongering.. but the "question a random Muslim" polls and interviews i see conducted in the US seem to point to a surprisingly high acceptance/support of radicalized and decidedly un-western, anti freedom ideas and ideology...

it may be a while before a lot of christian can accept homosexual relationships...
some of the radicalized and decidedly un-western, anti freedom ideas and ideology i had in mind were justified killing, limiting free speech, hurting cartoonists, cutting hands off thieves, beating wives and so on.. way out of the Americana mainstream , far more than i would expect anyway..

[Pointedstick]

I always wonder whether moderate Islam will take hold, at least in the West.
Or has it already, and I haven't noticed because the extremists get all the camera time?
I honestly don't know.

The problem, I think, is that with Islam there's a lot more you need to ignore in order to moderate it compared to Christianity. Jesus was a wandering hobo who preached tolerance and let himself be murdered by the government; Mohammed was a military warlord who slew his enemies and forcibly converted the survivors on pain of death. The "history book" part of the Quran is a lot more brutal in its pronouncements of what believers are supposed to do on the earthly realm than the New Testament is.

Than again the Old Testament is full of horrible barbarism too and for the most part Jews don't go around doing that stuff. But Judaism as a religion is mostly dying outside of Israel as Jews become more secular over time, so I guess anything's possible. Perhaps similarly, "moderate Islam" will depend on Muslims ignoring more and more of the tenets of their faith until they're basically slightly Muslim-flavored atheists. But this seems to depend on a certain amount of success and prosperity, as such populations appear to eschew religion more than impoverished ones, and unfortunately I don't see a great deal of prosperity on the horizon for middle-eastern countries.

[screwtape]

I do think it will be awhile before mainstream Muslims can be accepting of homosexual relationships. But I have no data to back that up.

I think you just hit on a great idea. Why not ask any Muslims wanting to immigrate to this country whether they believe in homosexual marriage or not, since it's fast becoming a bedrock of our own belief system? If they answer no, petition denied.

[dualstow]

PS, that's why I think the original texts have very little to do with it.  Of course the Christians had their Crusades (insert Reub-Obama comment here ;-)), and the Muslims were once a heck of a lot more tolerant of Christians and Jews, both called "The People of the Book." This was, of course, when they were naming stars and inventing chemistry and algebra.

The extremists know damn well that God doesn't approve of their raping and kidnapping. I don't think they're even religious.

At the same time, non-murderous religous people, be they Jewish or Muslim or Catholic, who pick and choose what's acceptable in secular society and try to point to a religious text for back up, *that* irks me.

As was pointed out in that Proposition 8 video, eating shrimp is ok, Leviciticus be damned, but gays are going to burn in hell. Unfair cherry picking.

madbean, I like it. We can give them a stick-figure visual that looks like an official traffic or restroom sign, with a checkbox, just in case English is not their strong suit.

EDIT: found!

[screwtape]

madbean, I like it. We can give them a stick-figure visual that looks like an official traffic or restroom sign, with a checkbox, just in case English is not their strong suit.

Thinking more about it, it probably isn't such a good idea. We'd just be filtering out the honest Muslims from the dishonest ones and I suspect it's the latter who intend to do us harm. As I said in an earlier post, Mohammed taught that it is okay to lie to the infidels.