Figuring Out Islam

[MachineGhost]

What exactly IS a prophet supposed to mean under Islam?  You don't really hear that as an important touchstone in Judaism or Christianity.

[Libertarian666]

I knew a few Muslim families growing up. They were throughly Americanized, with a slight Muslim flavor to them, in much the same way that a second-generation Indian immigrant might make a lot of curry and wear traditional Indian garb for family events from time to time. Totally non-threatening. That was many years ago, though. I don't think I've ever knowingly met an actual Muslim since then. But if I think about it, the kind of Muslim who would really scare me is one who clearly has more loyalty to his religion than the other aspects of his life, given how violent Islam can be these days and how many seemingly seductive avenues for radicalization abound online. To me this is a different ballpark from a rigid, extremist Christian or Jew or Hindu or Buddhist or whatever because those religions don't have the violent global terrorist connection. I've known a lot of very devout Christians and Jews who clearly had more loyalty to their religion than their country or even their family, but none of those people ever really gave me the impression that they would murder people over it the way extremist Muslims do.

Yes, Christians don't generally kill people based on faith. At least not for the past couple of hundred years.

[MachineGhost]

But then I realized that atheists are the most successful murderers in history.  That was a slightly depressing time in my life!

I'd say it wasn't because of their atheism, but because of ideology.  Religious or or secular, evil finds a way.

[Pointedstick]

PS, that's why I think the original texts have very little to do with it.  Of course the Christians had their Crusades (insert Reub-Obama comment here ;-)), and the Muslims were once a heck of a lot more tolerant of Christians and Jews, both called "The People of the Book." This was, of course, when they were naming stars and inventing chemistry and algebra.

Yeah, that makes sense. The Crusades happened during a period of European poverty and barbarism, and that's just what we see in the middle east today, while the Arab world's intellectual golden age corresponded to a period of peace, prosperity, and trade--enabled by strong central governments subjugating and unifying the warring tribes and giving out large subsidies to scientists and scholars!

[dualstow]

But then I realized that atheists are the most successful murderers in history.  That was a slightly depressing time in my life!

All I would say about that is that we haven't done the final count. Or should I say reckoning.

[screwtape]

What exactly IS a prophet supposed to mean under Islam?  You don't really hear that as an important touchstone in Judaism or Christianity.

If you don't think prophets are an important touchstone in Judaism and Christianity then you don't understand the religions very well (not that this is such a bad thing - but kind of unique considering the circles I've traveled in all my life). Divinely inspired human beings are a major part of both religions. Judaism is about the law and the prophets. Christian apostles are just like prophets but instead of just speaking words from God they are given a job to do (and there were also prophets in the New Testament, BTW).

I'm not nearly as qualified to speak for Islam as I am Christianity but I believe Mohammed saw himself as both Apostle and Prophet and also claimed to be the very last one that God would send.

[MachineGhost]

I'm not nearly as qualified to speak for Islam as I am Christianity but I believe Mohammed saw himself as both Apostle and Prophet and also claimed to be the very last one that God would send.

A violent barbarian and claims to be the pie hole of Allah?  Whoo boy!  Who can argue with that triple dare you logic?  It tops both Jesus and Moses.

What do you think will happen when the "Christ consciousness" reincarnates?

[screwtape]

What do you think will happen when the "Christ consciousness" reincarnates?

Say what? I wasn't expecting any such thing but you can enlighten me if you want.

[Benko]

2.  Spiritually Sufism has wonderful writings (see e.g. Tales of the Dervish) and I've been told that Sufism is part of Islam, but from a quick web search apparently that is controversial.    Hafiz is a wonderful (and wonderfully irreverent) spiritual poet, again perhaps related to islam. 

glad somebody mentioned Sufism, i didn't know there was debate about it being Islam or not.  When i was younger i read a bunch of Sufi story's and descriptions of their mystical practices (Dervish dancing) and found it fascinating beautiful and on par with any spiritual practice, in most ways superior to all the faith based "believer" religions.

Thinking about it, my Islamic former co-worker told me that Sufi's are part of Islam so I suspect that is the correct view.  Sufism provides at least some method (ways to foster transformation of yourself) e.g. Sufi stories which really nice ways to sensitize yourself to various things e.g. The Story of Fire

http://www.howtoconquerlife.com/2012/08/18/the

Note the last paragraph

[Benko]

great story, also a great allegory for religion, and description of how people mess up or loose the message and adopt something different in its place.. if those tribes got together on the internet and debated the subject, i suspect it would seem a bit like our figuring out religion thread...

Simon,

If you want an allegory for religion this is a great one, but one has to be open to the possibility that as the saying goes
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. - Hamlet (1.5.167-8),"

http://www.mojud.com/

NB the last two lines

[Benko]

Benko,

"We" have been taking action, in the form of secretive, undeclared dirty wars all over the world causing far more innocent deaths than "terrorism" has to us. So I guess I wonder what is in a general thought process that we need to do other than what we are already doing.

My preferred action would be to simply stop Islamic immigration. I can't think of much more that doesn't end up being more of a cost than a benefit and a slap in the face to the rule of law and having a transparent government.

Moda,

I am NOT advocating our current form of taking action.  But perhaps it would be good to take action before bombs start going off in shopping malls. 

"My preferred action would be to simply stop Islamic immigration"
Good.  This shows you are willing to be decisive (and think out of the box).  I'm not sure this would work, unless you plan to never let anyone islamic into the US even for short periods of time, but if people that dedicated and openminded to solving the problem are the majority I suspect answer(s) can be found.  I wish I had easy answers, but I don't.  Perhaps for a start the isreali's system of airport security. 

[Mountaineer]

Re. Sufi-ism.  I studied Gurdjieff's teachings for quite a while - has a Sufi connection.  His system (as presented and/or modified by some others like Bennett and Ouspensky) has some very good points, especially for organizational development.  However, it also has many really bizarre points such as his reported "strengths" - like being able to levitate a cow from a distance.  I came to the conclusion he was mostly a quack and one strange dude, although he probably did really believe he had a mission.  One can learn from anyone if you keep an open mind - sometimes what to do, sometimes what not to do, sometimes just for entertainment.

http://ggurdjieff.com

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Gurdjieff

... Mountaineer

[MachineGhost]

Levitating a cow from a distance is nothing to sneeze at.

"What work do you do?"
"I'm a standup philosopher."
"Oh. A bullshit artist."
"*Grumble*"
"Did you bullshit anyone this week?"
"No."
"Did you try to bullshit anyone this week?"
"Yes."
—Mel Brooks, History of the World, Part I, at a Roman unemployment office

[Mountaineer]

Levitating a cow from a distance is nothing to sneeze at.

Correct.    But what about a bull and its droppings? 

... Mountaineer

[Benko]

Re. Sufi-ism.  I studied Gurdjieff's teachings for quite a while - has a Sufi connection.  His system (as presented and/or modified by some others like Bennett and Ouspensky) has some very good points, especially for organizational development.  However, it also has many really bizarre points such as his reported "strengths" - like being able to levitate a cow from a distance.  I came to the conclusion he was mostly a quack and one strange dude, although he probably did really believe he had a mission.  One can learn from anyone if you keep an open mind - sometimes what to do, sometimes what not to do, sometimes just for entertainment.

http://ggurdjieff.com

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Gurdjieff

... Mountaineer

A is kinda like B (Gurdjieff's teachings ...has a Sufi connection) and B is kinda weird (levitating cows), so A must be kinda weird? 

Someone I knew who had a wide knowledge of spiritual things had a positive things to say about Gurdjief.  I know nothing more about him aside from the fact that this person commented that Gurdjeff had no one who came after who could pass on Gurdjeff's "teachings".  But sufism has a long history.  Long enough that Jesus (as a living person) is in some of the sufi stories (as a person, not what he became).  So I would not judge sufism by  Gurdjief.

[MediumTex]

Re. Sufi-ism.  I studied Gurdjieff's teachings for quite a while - has a Sufi connection.  His system (as presented and/or modified by some others like Bennett and Ouspensky) has some very good points, especially for organizational development.  However, it also has many really bizarre points such as his reported "strengths" - like being able to levitate a cow from a distance.  I came to the conclusion he was mostly a quack and one strange dude, although he probably did really believe he had a mission.  One can learn from anyone if you keep an open mind - sometimes what to do, sometimes what not to do, sometimes just for entertainment.

http://ggurdjieff.com

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Gurdjieff

... Mountaineer

Assuming that he continues down the path he is on, do you think that the fellow above will go to Hell and suffer for eternity when he dies?

[screwtape]

Watched "Inside Islam" for free on Amazon Prime last night and thought it was pretty good. It's basically a summary of a Gallup Poll that was taken among Muslims worldwide shortly after 9-11 to see what they really think.

The most interesting observation to me was that contrary to what many people believe, most Muslims do aspire to American ideals of democracy and freedom. They just see America as being hypocritical about it in propping up authoritarian governments in Muslim countries for our own self-interest. Probably a correct observation in my book. The House of Saud would be one of the prime examples.

Unsurprisingly America had the greatest unfavorability rating among all countries, followed by Great Britain. France came out pretty good. Interestingly Canada had one of the lowest unfavorability ratings. Since U.S. culture is nearly identical to Canada's this would seem to disprove the "they hate us for our freedoms" theory.

[MediumTex]

Since U.S. culture is nearly identical to Canada's this would seem to disprove the "they hate us for our freedoms" theory.

It's obvious that if they hate us it's because of our foreign policy, not our freedoms.

I always thought that was one of Bush's especially moronic comments.  When he said it I pictured terrorists all over the world stopping their work and giving each other "WTF?" looks.  Why on earth would someone give an oink about the freedoms of someone who lives on the other side of the world?  If they hate us it's because of something they are feeling in their own societies that they believe we are responsible for, and in many cases they are right.  That doesn't justify blowing up buildings, but it does help explain why there might be anger directed toward the U.S. among the poor in certain Muslim countries.

In Iraq, for example, I am sure that there is a whole generation of children who lost one or more parents to U.S. bombs and bullets (and maybe a family home as well) who we may be hearing from in the future as they move into adulthood.

[dualstow]

Unsurprisingly America had the greatest unfavorability rating among all countries, followed by Great Britain. France came out pretty good. Interestingly Canada had one of the lowest unfavorability ratings. Since U.S. culture is nearly identical to Canada's this would seem to disprove the "they hate us for our freedoms" theory.

I know it's a worldwide poll, but the fact that so many choose to live in the U.S. must count for something.

[screwtape]

Unsurprisingly America had the greatest unfavorability rating among all countries, followed by Great Britain. France came out pretty good. Interestingly Canada had one of the lowest unfavorability ratings. Since U.S. culture is nearly identical to Canada's this would seem to disprove the "they hate us for our freedoms" theory.

I know it's a worldwide poll, but the fact that so many choose to live in the U.S. must count for something.

Yes, I think that was one of the findings, that many would like to at least visit the U.S. and be educated here. My own theory for why that is, despite the hostility, is because by growing up under non-democratic and authoritarian regimes they tend to not equate the actions of the government with the will of the people as much as we do.

[Libertarian666]

Unsurprisingly America had the greatest unfavorability rating among all countries, followed by Great Britain. France came out pretty good. Interestingly Canada had one of the lowest unfavorability ratings. Since U.S. culture is nearly identical to Canada's this would seem to disprove the "they hate us for our freedoms" theory.

I know it's a worldwide poll, but the fact that so many choose to live in the U.S. must count for something.

I don't "choose" to live in the US. I have to live in the US, as there is no viable alternative for me at present.

[MachineGhost]

I don't "choose" to live in the US. I have to live in the US, as there is no viable alternative for me at present.

Why does anyone "have" to live in the US?

[Libertarian666]

I don't "choose" to live in the US. I have to live in the US, as there is no viable alternative for me at present.

Why does anyone "have" to live in the US?

I just answered that.

[moda0306]

If we're setting the precedent that "having no viable alternatives" means we are not "free," then we have to liberalize our view of "freedom" away from the negative rights violations view held by anarcho-capitalists and libertarians.  Does a child have "viable alternatives" if they work a factory job and get no education as a child?  No.  So they are a "slave" to their wage because they must eat to survive.

But if we're going to take the "negative rights" view of freedom, we can't complain about having "no viable alternatives" as a violation of our rights, because nobody owes us "viable alternatives" in the absence of our ability to pay for it via economic exchange.

Or am I viewing this juxtaposition incorrectly??

[Libertarian666]

If we're setting the precedent that "having no viable alternatives" means we are not "free," then we have to liberalize our view of "freedom" away from the negative rights violations view held by anarcho-capitalists and libertarians.  Does a child have "viable alternatives" if they work a factory job and get no education as a child?  No.  So they are a "slave" to their wage because they must eat to survive.

But if we're going to take the "negative rights" view of freedom, we can't complain about having "no viable alternatives" as a violation of our rights, because nobody owes us "viable alternatives" in the absence of our ability to pay for it via economic exchange.

Or am I viewing this juxtaposition incorrectly??

Yes, you are viewing it incorrectly. The difference is that governments use force to restrict choices, whereas non-governmental agents cannot do that without being subject to prosecution for criminal action.

Hope that helps.