MediumTex Converts Pointedstick to Christianity

[Pointedstick]

What a story, MT.

I have had the opportunity to participate in that kind of ritualistic activity a few times, but they've never affected me the way your experience did. The latest one was a few years ago while I was in Israel on the Birthright program, which I was attending because I realized I had unmet spiritual needs and I was wondering if Judaism could fill the void. I participated in a pretty emotional ritual at the western wall in Jerusalem, and I was actually bar mitzvah'd. There was dancing, singing, and a lot of the other people there with me got really into it, losing themselves in the ritual the way you described. But I didn't. This was something I was voluntarily participating in, and I wanted to feel something; I was craving that king of connection with something larger, but it just didn't happen. I felt so disappointed afterwards. I don't think that I was too closed off to it; I really felt like I was open to it. Maybe I only felt open to it but wasn't actually, I dunno. But it is a bittersweet memory.

[MachineGhost]

<censored>

[iwealth]

Had an experience like that walking across hot coals at a Tony Robbins convention. Ah the power of a charismatic leader and a supportive crowd. The euphoria lasted for days. I can see why people want that in their lives. I can see how for some religion can provide it. Not sure how it can ever be used to prove the existence of God.

[Benko]

I was craving that king of connection with something larger, but it just didn't happen.

1. It needs to be pointed out that there are a number of people (spiritual is a useful label) who consider Jesus just one of a number of "special" people throughout history others being e.g. Bhudda, Lao Tsu, etc. Much of what is being said in this thread works not only for christianity, but this "belief  system" as well. 

2. If you want an experience, not exactly what you had in mind, but towards that, do one of the meditational exercises I've posted on the board for a few days or a week.  Long enough that you know what the experience is like.  Then find an old CATHOLIC church, it has to be catholic, go when it is not crowded and do the meditational exercise in the church.

3. We are all something much greater than we take ourselves to be (christ consciousness, Bhudda nature, etc).  However society and our upbringing all get in the way of our experiencing this.  Mental activity acts as a shield against experiencing this.  Meister Eckhardt (christian mystic) said something to the effect he likes to be close to god and the closest he could get is being silent.  Philosophers have an iron plated shield.

[doodle]

What a story, MT.

I have had the opportunity to participate in that kind of ritualistic activity a few times, but they've never affected me the way your experience did. The latest one was a few years ago while I was in Israel on the Birthright program, which I was attending because I realized I had unmet spiritual needs and I was wondering if Judaism could fill the void. I participated in a pretty emotional ritual at the western wall in Jerusalem, and I was actually bar mitzvah'd. There was dancing, singing, and a lot of the other people there with me got really into it, losing themselves in the ritual the way you described. But I didn't. This was something I was voluntarily participating in, and I wanted to feel something; I was craving that king of connection with something larger, but it just didn't happen. I felt so disappointed afterwards. I don't think that I was too closed off to it; I really felt like I was open to it. Maybe I only felt open to it but wasn't actually, I dunno. But it is a bittersweet memory.

Why are you looking for spirituality through religion? That perhaps is the problem. Sam Harris (who is a very sober, rational thinker) wrote a book regarding this. You can actually find the whole audio version on youtube for free, but here is the book on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Waking-Up-Spiritu ... 1451636016

[Pointedstick]

Why are you looking for spirituality through religion? That perhaps is the problem. Sam Harris (who is a very sober, rational thinker) wrote a book regarding this. You can actually find the whole audio version on youtube for free, but here is the book on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Waking-Up-Spiritu ... 1451636016

It was convenient, mostly, and I wanted to explore Judaism a bit since that was the tradition I was semi-raised in. It didn't click. I'll check out Harris's stuff, thanks!

[doodle]

Why are you looking for spirituality through religion? That perhaps is the problem. Sam Harris (who is a very sober, rational thinker) wrote a book regarding this. You can actually find the whole audio version on youtube for free, but here is the book on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Waking-Up-Spiritu ... 1451636016

It was convenient, mostly, and I wanted to explore Judaism a bit since that was the tradition I was semi-raised in. It didn't click. I'll check out Harris's stuff, thanks!

The nice thing about Harris is that he is a neuroscientist and is quite familiar with the workings of the brain. He has also spent years in solitary meditation retreats and so has experienced (according to him) some of the things religious people might describe as spiritual moments. Best of all, he is committed to honest science and truth and has little patience for the loose "woo-woo"  that is propagated by Deepak Chopra or other new age mystics. https://youtu.be/hU6TkfCGlX8

[MachineGhost]

2. If you want an experience, not exactly what you had in mind, but towards that, do one of the meditational exercises I've posted on the board for a few days or a week.  Long enough that you know what the experience is like.  Then find an old CATHOLIC church, it has to be catholic, go when it is not crowded and do the meditational exercise in the church.

3. We are all something much greater than we take ourselves to be (christ consciousness, Bhudda nature, etc).  However society and our upbringing all get in the way of our experiencing this.  Mental activity acts as a shield against experiencing this.  Meister Eckhardt (christian mystic) said something to the effect he likes to be close to god and the closest he could get is being silent.  Philosophers have an iron plated shield.

Yes, we don't need no stinkin' religion to experience the "feeling tones" from "God" inside ourselves.

What is so special about a Catholic church?  Pomp and circumstance?  Would an Orthodox church work as well?

[Benko]

What is so special about a Catholic church?

This is not based on theory, this has been my experience and that of others.  I experienced this when visiting a well known catholic church near Sedona with my girlfriend at the time who was catholic.  The difference in my meditation was dramatic.  i asked the person who taught me meditation about it and he commented that old catholic churches usually have nice vibes.  I gather this has  something to do with the sincerity of the people who have visited the church over long periods of time.  I'm not saying there are no other churches with sincere people and  I was in an Episcopalian church few years back and while I didn't meditate while I was there, it did have really nice vibes and might very well have a similar effect.  Most presbeterian churches however?  Not so much. 

Ever walk into a room where people have been fighting?  Even if the room is quiet when you walk in, you can often sense the vibes.  This is kinda the opposite of that.

Would an Orthodox church work as well?

Greek or Russian orthodox?  No idea, but if there have been sincere people visiting over long period of time might very well work.  If you try it, let me know.

[Benko]

I suppose the above says things about christians i.e. catholics vs others, but I'm not and have never been christian and am just reporting what i've experienced and had confirmed by someone very experienced in such things (meditation, spirituality, etc.).

[Pointedstick]

Thank you so much for the book recommendation, Doodle. I've been listening to Sam Harris's audiobook today and it's really making a lot of sense. And I have to say, it sort of vindicates my opinion that Buddhism is a much better gateway religion to the kind of spiritual fulfillment I'm looking for than Christianity or Judaism are. I've got to try Benko's meditation techniques.

[screwtape]

What is so special about a Catholic church?

There are a lot of mystical elements in the Catholic church that you just don't find among the Protestants. You have the priests in robes, the burning of incense, lighting of candles, holy water, and at every mass the miracle of transubstantiation where the bread and wine supposedly gets turned into the "real presence" of Christ. There is nothing like this in Protestant churches but I believe you do do find much the same among the Orthodox.

I'm going to look into meditation myself. Maybe it will fill the void left over from my habit of prayer when I was a Christian.

[Benko]

Thank you so much for the book recommendation, Doodle. I've been listening to Sam Harris's audiobook today and it's really making a lot of sense. And I have to say, it sort of vindicates my opinion that Buddhism is a much better gateway religion to the kind of spiritual fulfillment I'm looking for than Christianity or Judaism are. I've got to try Benko's meditation techniques.

PS,

"Buddhism is a much better gateway religion to the kind of spiritual fulfillment I'm looking for than Christianity or Judaism are"

I would be careful.  There are valid (and helpful) people/teachings in many traditions e.g. Christian mystics e.g. Meister Eckhardt and Anthony DeMello, wonderful Sufi stories from hundreds if not thousands of years of teachings in the middle east, Lao Tsu (Tao Te CHing, etc) and of course teachings of Bhudda/Zen and certain teachers from India (e.g. I am That).  There was a person, now deceased who turned me onto a number of helpful references from various traditions.  I can post a list if there is interest.  There is also a short book chapter (11 pages) which is very relevant which I can forward to anyone interested. 

HOWEVER: Just as there are valid people/teachings from many points of view, there are also MANY MANY misleading points of view with many labels including most certainly Bhuddism.  What I'm saying is that there are many many sources who call themselves Bhuddist who have writings which will mislead you or at best, not be helpful.  I'll try and write up some hints on what to look for and not look for over the weekend.

[Pointedstick]

There are valid (and helpful) people/teachings in many traditions e.g. Christian mystics e.g. Meister Eckhardt and Anthony DeMello, wonderful Sufi stories from hundreds if not thousands of years of teachings in the middle east, Lao Tsu (Tao Te CHing, etc) and of course teachings of Bhudda/Zen and certain teachers from India (e.g. I am That).  There was a person, now deceased who turned me onto a number of helpful references from various traditions.  I can post a list if there is interest.  There is also a short book chapter (11 pages) which is very relevant which I can forward to anyone interested.

Yes please!

HOWEVER: Just as there are valid people/teachings from many points of view, there are also MANY MANY misleading points of view with many labels including most certainly Bhuddism.  What I'm saying is that there are many many sources who call themselves Bhuddist who have writings which will mislead you or at best, not be helpful.  I'll try and write up some hints on what to look for and not look for over the weekend.

Yeah, I agree. All the stuff about reincarnation is interesting, but seems silly to believe in without any scientific evidence. That's not really the part that interests me, anyway.

[MachineGhost]

MT, I think you're losing control here.  It sounds as if Pointedstick is converting to Buddhism instead of Christianity.

I think Benko stole MT's thunder.   What will MT do to fight back?  News at 11!

[MachineGhost]

Yeah, I agree. All the stuff about reincarnation is interesting, but seems silly to believe in without any scientific evidence. That's not really the part that interests me, anyway.

I think we have evidence for reincarnation with the 14 iterations of the Dalai Lama?  They certainly do have a "scientific" way of determining if it really is the reincarnate.

[Pointedstick]

Well hey, if we can actually prove reincarnation, that would certainly be cool.

[MediumTex]

I was craving that king of connection with something larger, but it just didn't happen.

1. It needs to be pointed out that there are a number of people (spiritual is a useful label) who consider Jesus just one of a number of "special" people throughout history others being e.g. Bhudda, Lao Tsu, etc. Much of what is being said in this thread works not only for christianity, but this "belief  system" as well. 

2. If you want an experience, not exactly what you had in mind, but towards that, do one of the meditational exercises I've posted on the board for a few days or a week.  Long enough that you know what the experience is like.  Then find an old CATHOLIC church, it has to be catholic, go when it is not crowded and do the meditational exercise in the church.

3. We are all something much greater than we take ourselves to be (christ consciousness, Bhudda nature, etc).  However society and our upbringing all get in the way of our experiencing this.  Mental activity acts as a shield against experiencing this.  Meister Eckhardt (christian mystic) said something to the effect he likes to be close to god and the closest he could get is being silent.  Philosophers have an iron plated shield.

That's a great post.  Thanks.

[MediumTex]

MT, I think you're losing control here.  It sounds as if Pointedstick is converting to Buddhism instead of Christianity.

My plan is spinning out of control.

[MediumTex]

MT, I think you're losing control here.  It sounds as if Pointedstick is converting to Buddhism instead of Christianity.

I think Benko stole MT's thunder.   What will MT do to fight back?  News at 11!

I will change his avatar to this:

[MediumTex]

PS,

What do you think Carl Jung was experiencing that he described as contact from God?

[screwtape]

i was curious where this thread was going to end up and i kinda kept my mouth shut so i wouldn't steal any thunder or drop any spoilers.. but i had a funny feeling that a bunch of logical, rational, freedom lovers were going to end up heading toward a gnostic, mystic, spiritual, interpretation or understanding as apposed to the faith and fear based version of Christianity being dissected in the other thread..

Yes, PointedStick's soul hangs in the balance, so we probably ought to all back off and let MT do his thing.

[Benko]

Any beliefs regarding reincarnation are irrelevant.

Misinformation under the guise of Bhuddism takes many forms but a common one is "do gooderism".  Neither Bhudda nor Jesus was mother Theresa.  Bhudda started out by leaving his family/the people who loved him.  This "selfish" act was aboslutely needed as part of his particular path.  When Bhudda and Jesus grew to be the historical figures that we knew they became much more caring, compassionate, etc.,  but they didn't start that way.  Imitating mother theresa, etc may make you feel good, but it will not do anything for you spiritually.  As you grow spiritually you will naturally, without trying become more caring, compassionate, etc. As someone who started out super selfish, I can vouch for this from personal experience (not that I'm approaching Bhuddahood anytime soon).  How does this work?  I can point you to something which will give you some clues, but  like much of this stuff, it cannot be understood.  But if you experience benefits, does it matter if you understand how they happened?  No faith or beliefs are required, but it does require effort to grow spiritually.


Which leads to this wonderful Sufi  story:


The Man with the Inexplicable Life

http://www.mojud.com/


Note well the next to last sentence: 

because all saints must have their story, and the story must be in accordance with the appetite of the listener, not with the realities of life

[Pointedstick]

PS,

What do you think Carl Jung was experiencing that he described as contact from God?

Like you said, something internal to himself that he just needed an outside catalyst to unlock. I like this way of looking at it. Certainly Jung's "God" doesn't seem to be anything like the being described in the Bible.

[Pointedstick]

I'm really enjoying your perspective, Benko. You have a lot of wisdom on this subject. I think it's interesting that the whole "you naturally become more compassionate as a result of becoming more spiritually aware" is similar to things that Christians have echoed in the other thread: that once you let go and trust in Jesus, you sort of transform into a person who wants to do good things. It all seems to be part of the idea of giving up control. Once you "surrender" to whatever it is that's the keystone of your spirituality--be it Jesus, or enlightenment, or whatever--the psychological freedom you gain from this sort of re-orders your mind in positive ways. It's something I can very much see and understand, and it doesn't seem to require any kind of mysticism to explain it, either; Sam Harris says that modern neuroscience backs all of this up from a purely biological, medicinal perspective.