Figuring Out Religion

[lazyboy]

I saw a bumper sticker today: "God is Pro Life"  implying that God is Anti Death. God is letting us know which side to be on.
Maybe a more accurate bumper sticker: "God is 50-50 on Life vs. Death". Just looking at the facts, it's obvious that there is no life without death and no death without life. Death and Life are joined at the hip- biologically it's one event, happening within each organism countless times per second. What we call Life, intrinsically includes Death. It's not something God would need to take a stand on.

[Mountaineer]

Vanity of vanities, that is, the greatest and highest vanity of all, total and utter vanity - the seemingly endless loop of life searching for meaning and absolute contentment but never really finding satisfaction.  Vanity of vanities - translated sometimes as “frustration” or “futility,” or "meaninglessness" to reflect the condition of creation, the despair of a world without God. Jesus Christ, by virtue of His cross and resurrection, has redeemed us. Everything that is looked to for meaning in life, including wealth, greatness, wisdom, pleasure, and philanthropy is ultimately meaningless without Christ. Today, we celebrate His birth.

...Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

Welcome to 2016!  May this be the year we all give thanks for everything we have and the source of the gifts.

A most happy new year to all my forum friends. 

... Mountaineer

[Fred]

I couldn't let this thread sink into obscurity.

While I was on Christmas vacation I watched the Frontline documentary called “Escaping ISIS”. It was about ISIS and a group of people in Northern Iraq called the Yazidis who hold fast to an obscure ancient religion that those who belong to any of of the world's major religions would surely label as “pagan”. They are monotheistic however, believe their god is THE true god, and have erected a temple for him in what they believe is the “holy” city of his choice. So, who knows?

As you might well imagine if you've heard about ISIS, these poor souls haven't fared well while ISIS is attacking Iraq, determined to establish a “caliphate”, whatever in the hell that is. They have attacked their cities, killed many of the men, and taken many of them as slaves, mostly the women, the younger the better. The whole story is about a group who works to rescue the women, all of whom had heartbreaking stories to tell about their time in captivity where they were subject to rape and other atrocities. At one point in the story an ISIS member takes a 9 year old slave girl into the restroom to rape her and one of the older captive women tries to stop him. He tells her that his religion permits this and she replies angrily that she doesn't care what his religion says. I said “you go girl”. The little girl gets raped any way.

At the end of the story it shows a large group returning due to the efforts of the rescue team and the first thing they want to do is go to the temple to obtain forgiveness from their god for swearing allegiance to Islam which they were required to do or die.

The documentary also shows some of the treatment of non-slaves in the kingdom of ISIS,  including killing homosexuals by throwing them off the top of buildings and also a very heartbreaking story of a young woman being stoned to death in a stoning pit for committing adultery. Her father attends the event to watch and she begs his forgiveness for bringing shame on the family but he refuses to give it to her. This is actually recorded though it is obscured so you can't get the complete horror of it.

What I was thinking as I was watching the movie is that I already read this book. It's called the “Holy Bible”, mostly the largest part of it known as the “Old Testament” where you can read about “God's Law” stipulating death for homosexuals and stoning to death of adulteresses. As for the Yazidi, they would have probably been worse off than they were with ISIS if Joshua and his merry band of Israelite conquerors had come calling. God commanded the Israelites to do exactly what ISIS did so I have to wonder where they got their ideas (and I think that is exactly where they got them with some refinements by Mohammed, BTW).

Anybody who thinks I'm wrong hasn't read the Old Testament where you will find much worse things than this. If there is any difference between the God of the Old Testament and Allah of ISIS, it has to be in name only as far as I can tell.

And when I saw the woman being stoned for adultery I also thought about the Bible, this time the New Testament in the gospel of John and the famous story of a woman who committed adultery and was brought to Jesus to test him about his adherence to the law that said she should be stoned to death. As the beautiful story goes, Jesus said “he who is without sin let him cast the first stone” and when nobody does he says “neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more”.

And then I thought about another verse in the gospel of John where it says “Light has come into the world and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil”.

And so I put the two together and I think that light really has come into the world to dispel the darkness because the story about Jesus and the adulteress is completely made up. Every modern Bible has a footnote in the margin indicating that it wasn't in any of the earliest New Testament manuscripts and is considered by most scholars to be a later scribal addition.

I believe that the darkness that men love more than light and can't let go of is the belief that there is an angry deity in the sky who must be appeased. Christians think of themselves to be better and different from Moslems because of the cruel things that they do to other human beings but those who hold to orthodoxy believe that their God can and will do even worse things after a man is dead.

But light has come into the world to save us. I see it in the scribe who made up the Jesus story.

[Pointedstick]

I believe that the darkness that men love more than light and can't let go of is the belief that there is an angry deity in the sky who must be appeased.

I don't think that's the darkness. The darkness is already within us, looking for excuses and justifications to assert itself. It's just like the story you told: that ISIS fighter didn't say that his god told him to rape the 9 year-old, he said that his god gave him permission. He was the one who wanted to do it. That is the darkness: men who rape 9 year-olds. The impulse in men to steal, rape, and murder is the darkness. Religion (particularly ones that include the Old Testament) gives bloodthirsty and evil people excuses to indulge in their primal desires, but it's not the cause of them, and it's certainly not the only cultural influence goading people to express their darker sides.

[MediumTex]

I saw a bumper sticker today: "God is Pro Life"  implying that God is Anti Death. God is letting us know which side to be on.
Maybe a more accurate bumper sticker: "God is 50-50 on Life vs. Death". Just looking at the facts, it's obvious that there is no life without death and no death without life. Death and Life are joined at the hip- biologically it's one event, happening within each organism countless times per second. What we call Life, intrinsically includes Death. It's not something God would need to take a stand on.

I think that King David would probably say that based on the fact that God killed David's newborn to punish David for his promiscuity, God is closer to the pro-death side than the pro-life side.

What other conclusion can you draw about a supernatural being that would kill a baby to convey displeasure about a man who chooses to sleep around a lot?

[Libertarian666]

I saw a bumper sticker today: "God is Pro Life"  implying that God is Anti Death. God is letting us know which side to be on.
Maybe a more accurate bumper sticker: "God is 50-50 on Life vs. Death". Just looking at the facts, it's obvious that there is no life without death and no death without life. Death and Life are joined at the hip- biologically it's one event, happening within each organism countless times per second. What we call Life, intrinsically includes Death. It's not something God would need to take a stand on.

I think that King David would probably say that based on the fact that God killed David's newborn to punish David for his promiscuity, God is closer to the pro-death side than the pro-life side.

What other conclusion can you draw about a supernatural being that would kill a baby to convey displeasure about a man who chooses to sleep around a lot?

"The Lord works in mysterious ways."

[MediumTex]

I saw a bumper sticker today: "God is Pro Life"  implying that God is Anti Death. God is letting us know which side to be on.
Maybe a more accurate bumper sticker: "God is 50-50 on Life vs. Death". Just looking at the facts, it's obvious that there is no life without death and no death without life. Death and Life are joined at the hip- biologically it's one event, happening within each organism countless times per second. What we call Life, intrinsically includes Death. It's not something God would need to take a stand on.

I think that King David would probably say that based on the fact that God killed David's newborn to punish David for his promiscuity, God is closer to the pro-death side than the pro-life side.

What other conclusion can you draw about a supernatural being that would kill a baby to convey displeasure about a man who chooses to sleep around a lot?

"The Lord works in mysterious ways."

Didn't that quote come from Job when he found out that God had ruined his life to settle a bet with the Devil?

[Mountaineer]

http://m.deseretnews.com/top/802/2/The- ... rases.html

[MediumTex]

http://m.deseretnews.com/top/802/2/The- ... rases.html

I wasn't suggesting that "the Lord works in mysterious ways" was Biblical; I was just suggesting that it is an accurate statement based upon His overall body of work.

[lazyboy]

I couldn't let this thread sink into obscurity.

While I was on Christmas vacation I watched the Frontline documentary called “Escaping ISIS”. It was about ISIS and a group of people in Northern Iraq called the Yazidis who hold fast to an obscure ancient religion that those who belong to any of of the world's major religions would surely label as “pagan”. They are monotheistic however, believe their god is THE true god, and have erected a temple for him in what they believe is the “holy” city of his choice. So, who knows?

As you might well imagine if you've heard about ISIS, these poor souls haven't fared well while ISIS is attacking Iraq, determined to establish a “caliphate”, whatever in the hell that is. They have attacked their cities, killed many of the men, and taken many of them as slaves, mostly the women, the younger the better. The whole story is about a group who works to rescue the women, all of whom had heartbreaking stories to tell about their time in captivity where they were subject to rape and other atrocities. At one point in the story an ISIS member takes a 9 year old slave girl into the restroom to rape her and one of the older captive women tries to stop him. He tells her that his religion permits this and she replies angrily that she doesn't care what his religion says. I said “you go girl”. The little girl gets raped any way.

At the end of the story it shows a large group returning due to the efforts of the rescue team and the first thing they want to do is go to the temple to obtain forgiveness from their god for swearing allegiance to Islam which they were required to do or die.

The documentary also shows some of the treatment of non-slaves in the kingdom of ISIS,  including killing homosexuals by throwing them off the top of buildings and also a very heartbreaking story of a young woman being stoned to death in a stoning pit for committing adultery. Her father attends the event to watch and she begs his forgiveness for bringing shame on the family but he refuses to give it to her. This is actually recorded though it is obscured so you can't get the complete horror of it.

What I was thinking as I was watching the movie is that I already read this book. It's called the “Holy Bible”, mostly the largest part of it known as the “Old Testament” where you can read about “God's Law” stipulating death for homosexuals and stoning to death of adulteresses. As for the Yazidi, they would have probably been worse off than they were with ISIS if Joshua and his merry band of Israelite conquerors had come calling. God commanded the Israelites to do exactly what ISIS did so I have to wonder where they got their ideas (and I think that is exactly where they got them with some refinements by Mohammed, BTW).

Anybody who thinks I'm wrong hasn't read the Old Testament where you will find much worse things than this. If there is any difference between the God of the Old Testament and Allah of ISIS, it has to be in name only as far as I can tell.

And when I saw the woman being stoned for adultery I also thought about the Bible, this time the New Testament in the gospel of John and the famous story of a woman who committed adultery and was brought to Jesus to test him about his adherence to the law that said she should be stoned to death. As the beautiful story goes, Jesus said “he who is without sin let him cast the first stone” and when nobody does he says “neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more”.

And then I thought about another verse in the gospel of John where it says “Light has come into the world and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil”.

And so I put the two together and I think that light really has come into the world to dispel the darkness because the story about Jesus and the adulteress is completely made up. Every modern Bible has a footnote in the margin indicating that it wasn't in any of the earliest New Testament manuscripts and is considered by most scholars to be a later scribal addition.

I believe that the darkness that men love more than light and can't let go of is the belief that there is an angry deity in the sky who must be appeased. Christians think of themselves to be better and different from Moslems because of the cruel things that they do to other human beings but those who hold to orthodoxy believe that their God can and will do even worse things after a man is dead.

But light has come into the world to save us. I see it in the scribe who made up the Jesus story.

I believe that the darkness that men love more than light and can't let go of is the belief that there is an angry deity in the sky who must be appeased.

I don't think that's the darkness. The darkness is already within us, looking for excuses and justifications to assert itself. It's just like the story you told: that ISIS fighter didn't say that his god told him to rape the 9 year-old, he said that his god gave him permission. He was the one who wanted to do it. That is the darkness: men who rape 9 year-olds. The impulse in men to steal, rape, and murder is the darkness. Religion (particularly ones that include the Old Testament) gives bloodthirsty and evil people excuses to indulge in their primal desires, but it's not the cause of them, and it's certainly not the only cultural influence goading people to express their darker sides.

Here's another point of view about this current orgy of darkness- worth a serious read in it's entirety.
http://quillette.com/2016/01/07/origina ... xtremists/

"Religion has nothing to do with immortal souls. It’s about bodies. Especially women’s bodies. Religion is concerned with sex and with violence, in that order. Men want sex from women; men fight over women to get it. The resulting children may or may not be allowed to live, depending on whose they are—and how much they grovel. That’s all there is to it. Everything else is just window-dressing. There’s no great supernatural lawgiver running the show. There are only evolutionary imperatives built into our DNA which those memeplexes that are religions ruthlessly exploit to their own benefit. At the dark throbbing heart of faith lies patriarchy."

The Vulcan heart was forged out of barbarism and violence. We learned to control it, but it is still part of us. To pretend it does not exist is to create an opportunity for it to escape.

—Lt. Tuvok, Star Trek Voyager episode “Cold Fire.”

[jafs]

Fred. Stephen Mitchell wrote a book called "The Gospel according to Jesus", in which he believes the adultery story to be true, based on some interesting reasoning.

It's a pretty good, short book you might be interested in.

[Mountaineer]

http://m.deseretnews.com/top/802/2/The- ... rases.html

I wasn't suggesting that "the Lord works in mysterious ways" was Biblical; I was just suggesting that it is an accurate statement based upon His overall body of work.

MT,

"The Lord works in mysterious ways" may not be a direct quote from Scripture, but I agree with you it certainly appears to be an accurate statement, at least from the vantage point of a creature trying to understand its creator.  I posted the 9 misquoted statements just for fun - it is interesting how many times I've heard these bits of wisdom quoted as Scripture.  I think it demonstrates the impact the Bible has had on all of us, and we often do not even realize it.

On a separate topic, I'm still carrying the Spyderco Delica 4 you recommended; I think it is the best pocket knife I've ever owned - very versatile and really holds an edge.  Thanks again.

... Mountaineer

[Maddy]

"Religion has nothing to do with immortal souls. It’s about bodies. Especially women’s bodies. Religion is concerned with sex and with violence, in that order. Men want sex from women; men fight over women to get it. . ."

You didn't think the serpent was really a serpent, did you?

[Fred]

"The Lord works in mysterious ways" may not be a direct quote from Scripture, but I agree with you it certainly appears to be an accurate statement, at least from the vantage point of a creature trying to understand its creator.

I know it's not specifically stated in the Bible but you do see it over and over again.  If you do evil in this life, you will suffer for it because God will punish you and you will reap what you have sown. If you do good, then you will still suffer for it because God works in mysterious ways and may need to test you as in the book of Job.

In other words it's  "Heads, God wins. Tails you lose."

Eventually sane people have to decide if they want to keep playing this game.

[Fred]

Fred. Stephen Mitchell wrote a book called "The Gospel according to Jesus", in which he believes the adultery story to be true, based on some interesting reasoning.

It's a pretty good, short book you might be interested in.

Sounds interesting. I put it on my reading list.

Personally, I don't think it will ever be possible to re-discover the historical Jesus and decide for sure what sayings and stories in the Bible are truly authentic. If you are a fundamentalist/literalist/whatever you want to call it/ kind of Christian who thinks the Bible is the revealed Word of God and and it is all inspired and completely historically accurate then I'm rooting for you to find proof that the beautiful story in John is true.

It's true enough for me if my own belief that people have been making up their own Jesus as they go along is true. Seems like positive evolution to me. I think the angry, vengeful God in the sky probably served his purpose at one time but that time is past. And if you want to call this realization "Jesus" that's fine with me. Maybe the historic Jesus really does embody that idea.

[Mountaineer]

A brief teaching moment on what it means to have abundant life - from Proverbs 8:32-36 by Pastor Bryan Wolfmueller.  This great chapter of Proverbs teaches us the abundant life that Jesus comes to give. “Whoever finds me finds life … all who hate me love death.”

http://www.worldvieweverlasting.com/201 ... bs-832-36/

... Mountaineer

[MediumTex]

A brief teaching moment on what it means to have abundant life - from Proverbs 8:32-36 by Pastor Bryan Wolfmueller.  This great chapter of Proverbs teaches us the abundant life that Jesus comes to give. “Whoever finds me finds life … all who hate me love death.”

http://www.worldvieweverlasting.com/201 ... bs-832-36/

... Mountaineer

The bolded words sound like something Donald Trump would say. 

[Mountaineer]

A brief teaching moment on what it means to have abundant life - from Proverbs 8:32-36 by Pastor Bryan Wolfmueller.  This great chapter of Proverbs teaches us the abundant life that Jesus comes to give. “Whoever finds me finds life … all who hate me love death.”

http://www.worldvieweverlasting.com/201 ... bs-832-36/

... Mountaineer

The bolded words sound like something Donald Trump would say. 

LOL!  In Proverbs 8, it is Wisdom speaking, i.e. Jesus, those bolded words.  I doubt that Trump would have the insight to compare himself to Jesus ... but who knows, he certainly would have the cajones.  After all, there is nothing new under the sun (Ecclesiastes). 

... M

[Mountaineer]

I came across an interesting podcast hosted by Pastor Bryan Wolfmueller (and the corresponding text) that compares religion and philosophy.  After the introductory material, the first session discusses Plato's "The Cave".  Those interested in philosophy and/or religion might like this.  It was a good refresher for me, I had not read "The Cave" for quite some time.

Master Metaphors of Philosophy, An Introduction?
What is the "Great Conversation", and how do we engage in it?
Philosophy is the cousin of theology. It is, or at least it should be, the pursuit of truth. I've spent some time reading and studying theology, but not much time with Philosophy at all. During a recent Doxology event I crossed paths with Rev. Dr. Gregory Schulz who, among other things, teaches Philosophy at Concordia University, Mequon, WI. In the course of the conversation he mentioned a list of "Master Metaphors of Philosophy," ten images brought to us from philosophy which, if considered and meditated on, cracked the door open to engaging in the Great Conversation of the West.  Read more at this link:
http://www.whatdoesthismean.org/master- ... troduction

Plato's Cave, Master Metaphor # 1
Imagine being chained to a wall of a cave. Your head is shackled so that you can only look to the back of the cave where shadows cast by a fire illuminate the wall. This is what you know, it is all you know. But then you are loose. You turn around and see the fire and the things making the shadows. You leave the cave and are blinded by the light of the sun. Your eyes adjust and at last you can see the things around you and the sun itself. Now, with this new understanding of reality, your return to tell your fellow prisioners what is true.
This is the metaphor of Plato's cave.   Read more at this link:
http://www.whatdoesthismean.org/master- ... metaphor-1

Pastor Wolfmueller says this will be a series that discusses all 10 Master Metaphors over the coming weeks.  Stay tuned!

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

Great article by the President of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod. 

http://blogs.lcms.org/2016/how-shall-we ... -the-bible

<snip>

How shall Christians regard and understand the Bible? The common narratives of Western culture are evaporating, especially knowledge of the Bible. Someone told me recently she was ordering a cake and wanted it decorated with a depiction of Noah’s Ark. The clerk had no idea what she was talking about.

Christians may still have some modicum of familiarity with the Bible, but today, we ought be very clear about what the Bible is and what it teaches so we are not swept away by the cesspool of biblical ignorance (i.e., pop culture, pop religion, pop psychology).

Agnosticism is more popular than ever. It’s the faddish pseudo-religion that asserts in absolute terms (ironically) that we can’t make any absolute assertions about “God” or religion. Behind the masquerade of a religiously uncommitted “high ground” — claiming all religion is the same, etc. — lurks a chasm of ignorance about what the Bible and genuine Christianity teach.

The best place for us to get hold of what the Bible is and how we should understand it is found in the person of Jesus Himself. How does Jesus regard the Bible?

<snip>

... M

[Fred]

Great article by the President of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod. 

http://blogs.lcms.org/2016/how-shall-we ... -the-bible

<snip>

How shall Christians regard and understand the Bible? The common narratives of Western culture are evaporating, especially knowledge of the Bible. Someone told me recently she was ordering a cake and wanted it decorated with a depiction of Noah’s Ark. The clerk had no idea what she was talking about.

Christians may still have some modicum of familiarity with the Bible, but today, we ought be very clear about what the Bible is and what it teaches so we are not swept away by the cesspool of biblical ignorance (i.e., pop culture, pop religion, pop psychology).

Agnosticism is more popular than ever. It’s the faddish pseudo-religion that asserts in absolute terms (ironically) that we can’t make any absolute assertions about “God” or religion. Behind the masquerade of a religiously uncommitted “high ground” — claiming all religion is the same, etc. — lurks a chasm of ignorance about what the Bible and genuine Christianity teach.

The best place for us to get hold of what the Bible is and how we should understand it is found in the person of Jesus Himself. How does Jesus regard the Bible?

<snip>

... M

That baker should have gone and read the Bible and then made a cake showing an angry God drowning all the men, women, children, and animals in a flood. The look on the Christian's face when he picked it up would have been priceless.

[Mountaineer]

Great article by the President of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod. 

http://blogs.lcms.org/2016/how-shall-we ... -the-bible

<snip>

How shall Christians regard and understand the Bible? The common narratives of Western culture are evaporating, especially knowledge of the Bible. Someone told me recently she was ordering a cake and wanted it decorated with a depiction of Noah’s Ark. The clerk had no idea what she was talking about.

Christians may still have some modicum of familiarity with the Bible, but today, we ought be very clear about what the Bible is and what it teaches so we are not swept away by the cesspool of biblical ignorance (i.e., pop culture, pop religion, pop psychology).

Agnosticism is more popular than ever. It’s the faddish pseudo-religion that asserts in absolute terms (ironically) that we can’t make any absolute assertions about “God” or religion. Behind the masquerade of a religiously uncommitted “high ground” — claiming all religion is the same, etc. — lurks a chasm of ignorance about what the Bible and genuine Christianity teach.

The best place for us to get hold of what the Bible is and how we should understand it is found in the person of Jesus Himself. How does Jesus regard the Bible?

<snip>

... M

That baker should have gone and read the Bible and then made a cake showing an angry God drowning all the men, women, children, and animals in a flood. The look on the Christian's face when he picked it up would have been priceless.

Fred, I feel your pain but do not understand it.  You seem really anchored in the God of wrath.  Thanks be to God that Jesus came to forgive our sins, all of them, for those who believe, and to be our advocate in front of the God of wrath.  Believers will get a "free pass" on judgement day because of Jesus.  I hope that someday you are able to see the God of forgiveness and mercy.  We walk by faith and not by sight on this side.

Blessings and God forgive us all,  ... M

[Mountaineer]

Where do good and evil come from?  Something to think about.  5 minute video.

https://www.prageru.com/courses/religio ... -evil-come

... M

[Greg]

Where do good and evil come from?  Something to think about.  5 minute video.

https://www.prageru.com/courses/religio ... -evil-come

... M

Good stuff. I'm adding some of the links from this huge thread to my Comparative Religions powerpoint I'm still building.