Is Trump doing a good job?

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dualstow
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by dualstow » Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:56 pm

I think we should *always* use the system, Vinny. But why even make length of sentence a competition? Everyone gets a trial (or, in most cases these days, a plea deal). Eventually, a sentence should be handed out that should fit the crime(s).

I often think about the judge that presided over the Brock Turner rape case. Easy to hate Turner, but the judge gave a sentence in accord with a pre-set standard and a recommendation. The masses didn’t like it, and now he’s out of a job. I, too, was initially upset with what seemed like a very light sentence, too, until I read the details. Well, in the end, the armchair judges got the better of the real judge.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by vnatale » Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:04 pm

dualstow wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:56 pm
I think we should *always* use the system, Vinny. But why even make length of sentence a competition? Everyone gets a trial (or, in most cases these days, a plea deal). Eventually, a sentence should be handed out that should fit the crime(s).

I often think about the judge that presided over the Brock Turner rape case. Easy to hate Turner, but the judge gave a sentence in accord with a pre-set standard and a recommendation. The masses didn’t like it, and now he’s out of a job. I, too, was initially upset with what seemed like a very light sentence, too, until I read the details. Well, in the end, the armchair judges got the better of the real judge.
It's been awhile since I read the details. But my best memory from having read those details is that the judge erred in his decision.

I do remember that aside from Brock's crime his father made some particularly odious comments.

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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by dualstow » Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:53 am

vnatale wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:04 pm
dualstow wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:56 pm
I often think about the judge that presided over the Brock Turner rape case.
<snip>

It's been awhile since I read the details. But my best memory from having read those details is that the judge erred in his decision.
Incorrect.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by sophie » Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:45 am

dualstow wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:53 am
vnatale wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:04 pm
dualstow wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:56 pm
I often think about the judge that presided over the Brock Turner rape case.
<snip>

It's been awhile since I read the details. But my best memory from having read those details is that the judge erred in his decision.
Incorrect.
Not so clear. The minimum sentence for the three counts of sexual assault was 2 years in prison, whereas the judge cut this to 6 months citing Turner's demeanor, lack of criminal record, and expressed remorse. The remorse part though was total fiction...he never admitted anything and in fact lied about the incident during the trial. In my book this should have disqualified him from getting any amount of leniency. And, (unlike the case with Brett Kavanaugh's accuser) the victim was evaluated in hospital under a rape protocol and there were injuries consistent with a non-consensual attack. There was also a perception that race and privilege played a role.

If you compare this to the 9 years that Roger Stone got...well, everyone is entitled to their opinion and following procedure is important, but I still think something is wrong with that picture. Also in the case of Stone, the temporal proximity to the impeachment trial gave the appearance that it had some impact on the recommended sentence. Kind of the mirror of the Turner case. When there is the possibility of such shenanigans, I think it makes sense for a review to be conducted by some mechanism that doesn't involve a formal appeal.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by Cortopassi » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:11 am

If you listened to the 60 minutes interview of the woman he raped and read her story, Turner should have gotten much more than the time he did. If I was king...

I've been drunk many times in my college years and doing something like that never, ever, crossed my mind. And certainly not when sober. I really wonder how brains are wired to allow yourself to do something like that.

I can certainly see me killing someone in self defense, or for another justified reason. But rape, man, I don't get it.

Back to Trump... could he in theory, go to a mic and say he's pardoning all 150K+ federal prisoners? Wonder what would happen. No obvious safeguard against that except a quick impeachment or assessment of incompetence or something. But if it takes effect the second it is said?
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by Kbg » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:33 am

How do you get a Trump pardon...be a rich disgraced criminal. I read the pardon list in the morning paper. I'm completely done with this guy.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by dualstow » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:56 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:11 am
If you listened to the 60 minutes interview of the woman he raped and read her story, Turner should have gotten much more than the time he did. If I was king...

I've been drunk many times in my college years and doing something like that never, ever, crossed my mind. And certainly not when sober. I really wonder how brains are wired to allow yourself to do something like that.

I can certainly see me killing someone in self defense, or for another justified reason. But rape, man, I don't get it.

Back to Trump... could he in theory, go to a mic and say he's pardoning all 150K+ federal prisoners? Wonder what would happen. No obvious safeguard against that except a quick impeachment or assessment of incompetence or something. But if it takes effect the second it is said?
I sympathize with your position and I feel almost exactly the same *except* that the judge was then "tried" as if he were the rapist.He was recalled.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by Tyler » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:00 am

sophie wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:45 am
If you compare this to the 9 years that Roger Stone got...well, everyone is entitled to their opinion and following procedure is important, but I still think something is wrong with that picture.
The important detail most people are intentionally omitting is that the Stone prosecutors reportedly lied to their DOJ superiors about the sentence they were going to seek before unilaterally lengthening the recommended sentence in the official filing. Combine that with the mass resignation and fawning media coverage, and the entire episode feels like a scripted political stunt.

"The department was shocked to see the sentencing recommendation,” the official, who requested anonymity to speak about the department's internal deliberations, said. “This was not what had been briefed to the department and the department thinks the recommendation was extreme, excessive and grossly disproportionate to Stone’s offenses and the department will clarify its position later today at the court.”
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/prosecu ... d=68893294
Last edited by Tyler on Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by dualstow » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:08 am

sophie wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:45 am
dualstow wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:53 am
vnatale wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:04 pm
dualstow wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:56 pm
I often think about the judge that presided over the Brock Turner rape case.
<snip>

It's been awhile since I read the details. But my best memory from having read those details is that the judge erred in his decision.
Incorrect.
Not so clear. The minimum sentence for the three counts of sexual assault was 2 years in prison, whereas the judge cut this to 6 months citing Turner's demeanor, lack of criminal record, and expressed remorse. The remorse part though was total fiction...he never admitted anything and in fact lied about the incident during the trial. In my book this should have disqualified him from getting any amount of leniency. And, (unlike the case with Brett Kavanaugh's accuser) the victim was evaluated in hospital under a rape protocol and there were injuries consistent with a non-consensual attack. There was also a perception that race and privilege played a role.
Yes, there was a perception that race and privilege played a role, hence the mob. This is the age we're living in. I think we can all agree that Turner is despicable. Even before but especially reading the words of Doe (real name now out), mafia justice even invades the mind.

But...the system. If it's a problem, rewrite the system. Don't recall a judge with a reputation for fairness and then wipe him out with legal fees for following a court recommendation when sentencing.

I see Cevallos' comments about it on wikipedia, but I'm still looking for the article I read on it that changed my perception.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by technovelist » Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:05 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:11 am
If you listened to the 60 minutes interview of the woman he raped and read her story, Turner should have gotten much more than the time he did. If I was king...

I've been drunk many times in my college years and doing something like that never, ever, crossed my mind. And certainly not when sober. I really wonder how brains are wired to allow yourself to do something like that.

I can certainly see me killing someone in self defense, or for another justified reason. But rape, man, I don't get it.

Back to Trump... could he in theory, go to a mic and say he's pardoning all 150K+ federal prisoners? Wonder what would happen. No obvious safeguard against that except a quick impeachment or assessment of incompetence or something. But if it takes effect the second it is said?
C'mon man, that's a rookie hypothetical!
What if Trump launched nukes against Nancy Pelosi's district? Now that's a serious hypothetical!
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by technovelist » Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:06 pm

Kbg wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:33 am
How do you get a Trump pardon...be a rich disgraced criminal. I read the pardon list in the morning paper. I'm completely done with this guy.
You mean like this rich disgraced criminal? https://www.npr.org/2018/06/06/61751306 ... -in-prison

Or these? https://www.justice.gov/pardon/pardons- ... #Feb182020

Just going by that list, I would say that most of those pardoned or whose sentences were commuted weren't rich.
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Re: Is Trump doing a good job?

Post by Kbg » Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:28 pm

technovelist wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:06 pm
Kbg wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:33 am
How do you get a Trump pardon...be a rich disgraced criminal. I read the pardon list in the morning paper. I'm completely done with this guy.
You mean like this rich disgraced criminal? https://www.npr.org/2018/06/06/61751306 ... -in-prison

Or these? https://www.justice.gov/pardon/pardons- ... #Feb182020

Just going by that list, I would say that most of those pardoned or whose sentences were commuted weren't rich.
Guess you should dig a little deeper...not saying none of the list was pardon worthy. However,

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/19/politics ... index.html

Granted, I'm not a CNN fan either so let's not argue over easily verifiable backgrounds.

But I will retract and rephrase my statement. How do you get a Trump pardon...usually be a rich disgraced criminal or have strong support from his far right base.
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