Designated Hitter

[yankees60]

Are you allowed to live in MA and not be a BoSox fan?

If you do go to Cleveland (motto: hey, it's better than Detroit!) I highly recommend the pro football hall of fame in Canton (1 hour drive). One of the best museums I have ever been to.

I am an independent in many way! I choose to root for who I want to root for. That said, I am a Boston Celtics fan.

But I am THE Yankees fan in many people's eyes around here!

And, I always get comments when I'm wearing both Celtics and Yankees clothing at the same time!

Since I have only seen one football game since the famous Namath / Unitas Super Bowl game 51 years ago the football Hall of Fame would not be of interest. I do live only 45 minutes from the NBA Hall of Fame / Museum, which is of great interest. And, have been to the Baseball Hall of Fame nearly 10 times.

Vinny

[yankees60]

Are you allowed to live in MA and not be a BoSox fan?

If you do go to Cleveland (motto: hey, it's better than Detroit!) I highly recommend the pro football hall of fame in Canton (1 hour drive). One of the best museums I have ever been to.

Also has one of the best symphony orchestras in the world. [Edit: Cleveland, I mean, not Canton]

And the DH is still terrible: if you're swinging a bat, you need to be playing in the field, and vice versa. If that puts the NL at a disadvantage, then fine, at least they're actually playing baseball.

Why do not then football players stay on the field for ALL plays? When we were kids playing pickup football we always played both ways.

Vinny

Pro football is just a little rougher and more strenuous than 5th grade touch football in the street.

To keep the analogy. Once you become a professional baseball player, being a pitcher is way more demanding than on the none-professional level Therefore, all the focus on the professional level is on pitching, with the hitting aspect being left behind.

Vinny

[yankees60]

Are you allowed to live in MA and not be a BoSox fan?

If you do go to Cleveland (motto: hey, it's better than Detroit!) I highly recommend the pro football hall of fame in Canton (1 hour drive). One of the best museums I have ever been to.

Also has one of the best symphony orchestras in the world. [Edit: Cleveland, I mean, not Canton]

And the DH is still terrible: if you're swinging a bat, you need to be playing in the field, and vice versa. If that puts the NL at a disadvantage, then fine, at least they're actually playing baseball.

Why do not then football players stay on the field for ALL plays? When we were kids playing pickup football we always played both ways.

Vinny

Pro football is just a little rougher and more strenuous than 5th grade touch football in the street.

To keep the analogy. Once you become a professional baseball player, being a pitcher is way more demanding than on the none-professional level Therefore, all the focus on the professional level is on pitching, with the hitting aspect being left behind.

Vinny

Yes, but just bc you pitch doesn't mean you don't have the energy or ability to swing a bat once every 3 innings. After 8 downs on offense, it would be tough to keep up with the other team then on defense.

You are overlooking the part wherein if you are a starting pitcher you are only going to be in one out of five games and, only, on the average, be in 2/3's of those games. So, at best you are going to get about 60 at bats a season. And, the relievers would only get a handful. Therefore, pitchers are in no way on an equal playing level when it comes to position players who focus some of their practice on defense but probably 90% on offense. Pitchers probably spend 99% of their practice time on pitching, leaving a tiny 1%, if that, for hitting practice.

It's just silly to have pitchers in a batting order.

Do National League fans really get excited / pay money to see a pitcher hit?

The quality of baseball went way up in the American League with the advent of the designated hitter as you no longer had the 8th hitter trying to get a walk to be on base so the pitcher could attempt a sacrifice bunt. You had the height of dullsville for not an insignificant portion (22%) of your offensive lineup.



Vinny

[Xan]

Dullsville is having 9 sluggers waiting to hit a homerun. No double switches. No strategy.

Dullsville is aging hitters (note: NOT baseball players) who no longer have the skills to play in the field unfairly extending their careers.

None of your points are valid because they apply evenly to both teams. Or should, anyway. Do I pay to see a pitcher bat? Yes! Because, for one, I pay for baseball players to play baseball, not for hitters to hit and pitchers to pitch. And because some pitchers ARE good at hitting, and that talent should be rewarded, and because when a pitcher does get a hit or hit a homerun or something, it's just the best.

[yankees60]

Dullsville is having 9 sluggers waiting to hit a homerun. No double switches. No strategy.

Dullsville is aging hitters (note: NOT baseball players) who no longer have the skills to play in the field unfairly extending their careers.

None of your points are valid because they apply evenly to both teams. Or should, anyway. Do I pay to see a pitcher bat? Yes! Because, for one, I pay for baseball players to play baseball, not for hitters to hit and pitchers to pitch. And because some pitchers ARE good at hitting, and that talent should be rewarded, and because when a pitcher does get a hit or hit a homerun or something, it's just the best.

Pitchers are just a totally different breed of baseball player. We have regularly seen position players change positions in a game / during their careers. It is rare that we see a position player pitch or a pitcher anywhere in the field except for pitching. In the game of baseball a pitcher is an EXTREME specialist. Pitching only. NO hitting!

I think I know enough about football to ask if I am correct about this question. In professional football (or even in college) does the kicker do anything else but kick? Does he also regularly play either offense or defense? Forgive the ignorance of a question asked by someone who has seen exactly one football game on any level in any way in the last 51 years.

Vinny

[Xan]

I don't understand the football argument. Do you really want to have a separate offense and defense in baseball? You'd certainly have better hitting and better defense. But that isn't baseball. Why go down that road at all?

[yankees60]

I don't understand the football argument. Do you really want to have a separate offense and defense in baseball? You'd certainly have better hitting and better defense. But that isn't baseball. Why go down that road at all?

Not saying that at all. Just saying that in the case of the pitchers there some similarity to football.

As a professional baseball player you are in one of two camps - you are either a pitcher or you are a position player.

The main role of a position is to hit and play defense. But never pitch. The main role of a pitcher is to pitch and he should never be seen with a bat in his hands.

Vinny

[Kriegsspiel]

I don't understand the football argument. Do you really want to have a separate offense and defense in baseball? You'd certainly have better hitting and better defense. But that isn't baseball. Why go down that road at all?

I recently heard about a form of basketball that girls played in the midwest until it lost popularity. It was 3 on 3, but 3 girls only played on the offensive half court, and the other 3 played defense, and they couldn't cross half court. It sounds kinda neat but I couldn't find any videos of it.

[yankees60]

I don't understand the football argument. Do you really want to have a separate offense and defense in baseball? You'd certainly have better hitting and better defense. But that isn't baseball. Why go down that road at all?

I recently heard about a form of basketball that girls played in the midwest until it lost popularity. It was 3 on 3, but 3 girls only played on the offensive half court, and the other 3 played defense, and they couldn't cross half court. It sounds kinda neat but I couldn't find any videos of it.

I remember reading that in the old days - possibly 60s, or even earlier, certain amount of the girls on the team were not allowed to go over the half court line, similar to what you are describing. But it was my understanding that that was the rules for girls basketball EVERYWHERE, not just in the Midwest.

This looks like it is addressing what we each have in mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-on-six_basketball.

Vinny

[Kriegsspiel]

I don't understand the football argument. Do you really want to have a separate offense and defense in baseball? You'd certainly have better hitting and better defense. But that isn't baseball. Why go down that road at all?

I recently heard about a form of basketball that girls played in the midwest until it lost popularity. It was 3 on 3, but 3 girls only played on the offensive half court, and the other 3 played defense, and they couldn't cross half court. It sounds kinda neat but I couldn't find any videos of it.

I remember reading that in the old days - possibly 60s, or even earlier, certain amount of the girls on the team were not allowed to go over the half court line, similar to what you are describing. But it was my understanding that that was the rules for girls basketball EVERYWHERE, not just in the Midwest.

This looks like it is addressing what we each have in mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-on-six_basketball.

Vinny

Yea that was it.

"Beginning in 1958 the Office of Civil Rights started looking at banning six-on-six high school girls basketball."

[bedraggled]

Vinny,

I've argued against the DH previously.


TennPaGa is a great contributor to this thread.

IT's getting late but I'll be contributing more in a day or2.

Looks like Xan and I are on the same page re the DH.

Cheers.

[yankees60]

Vinny,

I've argued against the DH previously.


tennpagais a great contributor to this thread.

IT's getting late but I'll be contributing more in a day or2.

Looks like Can and I are on the same page re the DH.

Cheers.

Yes, as I do in all the prior Topics I've visited I read just about all that is in them. So, have your arguments against.

Vinny

[bedraggled]

Vinny,

A post from July, 2017:

And in 1955, second year Detroit Tigers outfielder Al Kaline was being heckled by fans in the Yankee Stadium right field, field level seats

The taunt was: "Hey, Kaline, you're not half as good as Mantle."

Kaline's response was "Nobody is."

Keep in mind that Kaline hit .340 that year with 200 hits and 27 HRs- the batting average and hits were the league's best.

I saw Mantle during his decline. People who saw young Mantle said he was beyond. Must have been something to witness.

[yankees60]

Vinny,

A post from July, 2017:

And in 1955, second year Detroit Tigers outfielder Al Kaline was being heckled by fans in the Yankee Stadium right field, field level seats

The taunt was: "Hey, Kaline, you're not half as good as Mantle."

Kaline's response was "Nobody is."

Keep in mind that Kaline hit .340 that year with 200 hits and 27 HRs- the batting average and hits were the league's best.

I saw Mantle during his decline. People who saw young Mantle said he was beyond. Must have been something to witness.

Mantle is on the Yankees Mount Rushmore of all-time greatest Yankees along with DiMaggio, Ruth, and Gehrig.

His average season was comparable to Alex Rodriguez's greatest seasons.

Mike Trout is today's Mickey Mantle. Too bad he plays on the West Coast and on a team that has only made the post season once.

In the first 14 years of Mantle's career he was in the World Series every one of those years except for two. Therefore he got to play on baseball's greatest stage in all of those years. There was no other post season series so back then the World Series got the FULL attention of baseball fans.

Vinny

[bedraggled]

Vinny,

Since you profess the Yankee faith of a True Believer, you might understand my evaluation, as follows:

Derek Jeter is a Hall of Famer. There was a particular great play he was involved in and my spontaneous, knee jerk reaction was "Jeter really is as good as Munson."

Since the Yankees have a legitimate history, consider that history as an atom with Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Ford and Mantle in the nucleus- and Berra. (I am now vague on the 1936-1939 World Series winners. Wanna put Bill Dickey and a couple of others in the nucleus)? Other great players are placed in the first ring of electrons around the nucleus. That first ring includes Munson, Richardson and Jeter. Include Rizzuto there. Are Guidry, Lyle and Gossage in the first ring? I'm inclined to put Elston Howard in the first ring. Whaddya think?

BTW, Mariano Rivera must get serious consideration for being in the nucleus.

That Munson is not in the Hall may be a moral offense. I can argue Guidry's absence, too. Speaking of moral offenses... the designated hitter!

[bedraggled]

Vinny,
Regarding modern baseball, I find I can let it be. Then along comes Aaron Judge and it's fun again. I feel like Michael Corleone: "Just when I think I'm out, they drag me back in again."

Imagine today's starting pitcher looking to be relieved after 5 innings. Ewwww! How pedestrian.

Did you see my post about Warren Spahn vs. Juan Marichal and the 15 inning game?

Can you arrange to trade Gary Sanchez for Mike Trout? Please.

[yankees60]

Vinny,

Since you profess the Yankee faith of a True Believer, you might understand my evaluation, as follows:

Derek Jeter is a Hall of Famer. There was a particular great play he was involved in and my spontaneous, knee jerk reaction was "Jeter really is as good as Munson."

Since the Yankees have a legitimate history, consider that history as an atom with Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Ford and Mantle in the nucleus- and Berra. (I am now vague on the 1936-1939 World Series winners. Wanna put Bill Dickey and a couple of others in the nucleus)? Other great players are placed in the first ring of electrons around the nucleus. That first ring includes Munson, Richardson and Jeter. Include Rizzuto there. Are Guidry, Lyle and Gossage in the first ring? I'm inclined to put Elston Howard in the first ring. Whaddya think?

BTW, Mariano Rivera must get serious consideration for being in the nucleus.

That Munson is not in the Hall may be a moral offense. I can argue Guidry's absence, too. Speaking of moral offenses... the designated hitter!

Of those you name here is how I would arrange them...

Mantle, DiMaggio, Gehrig, Ruth
Yogi Berra
Derek Jeter
Whitey Ford
Mariano Rivera
Bill Dickey
Phil Rizzuto
Ron Guidry
Thurman Munson
Elston Howard
Goose Gossage
Sparky Lyle
Bobby Richardson

[yankees60]

Vinny,
Regarding modern baseball, I find I can let it be. Then along comes Aaron Judge and it's fun again. I feel like Michael Corleone: "Just when I think I'm out, they drag me back in again."

Imagine today's starting pitcher looking to be relieved after 5 innings. Ewwww! How pedestrian.

Did you see my post about Warren Spahn vs. Juan Marichal and the 15 inning game?

Can you arrange to trade Gary Sanchez for Mike Trout? Please.

I read everything here so I must have read it.

It is far more difficult to pitch now than then. Hitters are far more patient and realize the value of getting on base, i.e., walking and making the pitcher work. Plus, in the American League, as you know they don't have the luxury (as they still in the National League) of essentially having 22.2% of the lineup being composed of essentially non-hitters.

Vinny

[bedraggled]

Vinny,

I must digest you thoughts on pitchers. I am impressed that you mentioned 22.2% of the lineup was easy. I always said the 8th and 9th batters allowed the pitcher a chance to breathe.

Since you understand better than many, factor nutrition into pitcher breakdowns. Skittles and diet cola, anyone?

[bedraggled]

Vinny,

I'll post in the "Baseball?" thread only.

[yankees60]

Vinny,

I must digest you thoughts on pitchers. I am impressed that you mentioned 22.2% of the lineup was easy. I always said the 8th and 9th batters allowed the pitcher a chance to breathe.

Since you understand better than many, factor nutrition into pitcher breakdowns. Skittles and diet cola, anyone?

You remember the 1967 Red Sox "Impossible Dream" season and all of Carl Yastrzemski's heroics on his way to winning the MVP. Hitting 44 home runs that year? Way more than he ever had previously.

That winter got into a weight lifting program which significantly increased in strength, leading to all those home runs.

Back in those days all other player were anti-weight lifting, saying it would make them "muscle bound".

Also, players did not make that much money back then and almost all of them also had winter jobs. They did nothing to keep themselves in shape during the off-season. Therefore they did have to get back in shape during Spring Training. Now it is Headlines if ONE players comes to Spring Training NOT in shape!

Vinny