Putin Invades Ukraine II

[dualstow]

..
Russian territory comes fairly close to Turkey but there is a Georgia/Armenia/Azerbaijan strip that means they don't actually share a LAND border with Turkey. Not sure how the territory lines are drawn (ha, ha, good one, barrett!) in the Black Sea
…

I’m ashamed to say I don’t get it

[barrett]

..
Russian territory comes fairly close to Turkey but there is a Georgia/Armenia/Azerbaijan strip that means they don't actually share a LAND border with Turkey. Not sure how the territory lines are drawn (ha, ha, good one, barrett!) in the Black Sea
…

I’m ashamed to say I don’t get it

Well, it wasn't that funny. All I was trying to say is that whatever "agreements" might be in place about which countries control which parts of the Black Sea, Russia would not give a damn if they were to decide to attack Turkey via that route.

Check out this map:

https://www.britannica.com/place/Black-Sea

From Crimea to the north of Turkey is about 160 miles of open water.

[dualstow]

Ohhh! I was placiing too much importance on “Good one Barrett” coming before the Black Sea is mentioned.
It’s funny!

[ppnewbie]

Great video by Jake Tran

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBZ9C8zHkUQ

[seajay]

Great video by Jake Tran

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBZ9C8zHkUQ

Pure Communist propaganda by someone clearly from a communist background/preference.

Russians have a long history of killing children/babies and continue to do so in the present day. Paramount to nuclear indiscriminate devastation via albeit slower conventional weapons and chemical/biological weapons. Liars even to their own citizens, where mass illegal present day murders/genocide is suggested to their own as being images from 'games' or from past history recordings.

No matter. Russia is now widely recognized as a pariah state, finally being called-out for its current and past obscenities against mankind. That will either lead to its demise, or more likely IMO the global doomsday clock striking midnight in which case no one will care. Communist evil would otherwise triumph when good men opted to do nothing.

The USSR and Russia are entirely different entities, where many of the former USSR states opted to move away from Communism in favor of democracy upon having the freedom to choose. But a Chinese person wouldn't understand that, their mental capacity only extends to when being asked to draw a picture their response would be to ask what they should draw.

[yankees60]

Great video by Jake Tran

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBZ9C8zHkUQ

Pure Communist propaganda by someone clearly from a communist background/preference.

Russians have a long history of killing children/babies and continue to do so in the present day. Paramount to nuclear indiscriminate devastation via albeit slower conventional weapons and chemical/biological weapons. Liars even to their own citizens, where mass illegal present day murders/genocide is suggested to their own as being images from 'games' or from past history recordings.

No matter. Russia is now widely recognized as a pariah state, finally being called-out for its current and past obscenities against mankind. That will either lead to its demise, or more likely IMO the global doomsday clock striking midnight in which case no one will care. Communist evil would otherwise triumph when good men opted to do nothing.

The USSR and Russia are entirely different entities, where many of the former USSR states opted to move away from Communism in favor of democracy upon having the freedom to choose. But a Chinese person wouldn't understand that, their mental capacity only extends to when being asked to draw a picture their response would be to ask what they should draw.

Some related questions.

It was often asked why the Jews so seemingly willingly went to their deaths during the Holocaust without putting up more resistance.

The Russians from the point of view of American History taught to us WERE the unsung heroes of World War II. They had, by far, more casualties and deaths than did the United States. Without what they did against Germany we do not know how World War II would have turned out. Certainly questionable on Hitler's part to turn Russia from an ally to a foe. I guess he was after those Russian oil fields?

But Russians have always suffered and been subject to purges by their own government. Getting back to my original statement and the seeming passivity on the part of the Jews in going to their death (though I do know there was many instances of active resistance on the part of the Jew) the same question gets asked of the typical Russian. How has it been possible that their government has been able to kill so many of them without resistance? Could the same ever happen in our country? The police and military from our country are composed of all of us. Which would mean that the police and military would be killing their own.

[ppnewbie]

Is the rise and rapid normalization of extrajudiacially seizing private citizens assets who have not been convicted of any crime a cause for alarm? I am getting a little freaked out.

Very curious about everyone else’s opinion, impression.

[dualstow]

Great video by Jake Tran

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBZ9C8zHkUQ

Pure Communist propaganda by someone clearly from a communist background/preference.

Russians have a long history of killing children/babies and continue to do so in the present day.
...

The USSR and Russia are entirely different entities, where many of the former USSR states opted to move away from Communism in favor of democracy upon having the freedom to choose. But a Chinese person wouldn't understand that, their mental capacity only extends to when being asked to draw a picture their response would be to ask what they should draw.

I haven't watched the video. Just want to say that Tran is not a Chinese name. Probably Vietnamese (where, yes, the Communism stuff still applies);

[ppnewbie]

Great video by Jake Tran

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBZ9C8zHkUQ

Pure Communist propaganda by someone clearly from a communist background/preference.

Russians have a long history of killing children/babies and continue to do so in the present day.
...

The USSR and Russia are entirely different entities, where many of the former USSR states opted to move away from Communism in favor of democracy upon having the freedom to choose. But a Chinese person wouldn't understand that, their mental capacity only extends to when being asked to draw a picture their response would be to ask what they should draw.

I haven't watched the video. Just want to say that Tran is not a Chinese name. Probably Vietnamese (where, yes, the Communism stuff still applies);

I was going to say that as well but then deleted the post. Hopefully the lively and informative thread can continue.

To that end - my view is that Russia and the US both had options. The safest, facing saving option, was to secure the Donbask by offering direct military support without claiming the support.

The US could then be outraged and not do much and hold onto global hegemony for a few more years till I could unwind my stocks and build a bunker.

[I Shrugged]

But Russians have always suffered and been subject to purges by their own government. Getting back to my original statement and the seeming passivity on the part of the Jews in going to their death (though I do know there was many instances of active resistance on the part of the Jew) the same question gets asked of the typical Russian. How has it been possible that their government has been able to kill so many of them without resistance? Could the same ever happen in our country? The police and military from our country are composed of all of us. Which would mean that the police and military would be killing their own.

Solzhenitsyn said he and others used to sit around the gulags asking themselves why they didn’t kill the secret service goons that came to get them.

When it comes time, the police and military will kill you. Because first you will have been vilified. What see Waco, Ruby Ridge, the MOVE people in Philly, and on and on.

That’s why the language being used by American leftists to describe their opposition is downright frightening. They are basically Stalinists.

[ppnewbie]

As a life long democrat. I can’t wait till the midterms to vote for anyone other than a democrat.

[yankees60]

But Russians have always suffered and been subject to purges by their own government. Getting back to my original statement and the seeming passivity on the part of the Jews in going to their death (though I do know there was many instances of active resistance on the part of the Jew) the same question gets asked of the typical Russian. How has it been possible that their government has been able to kill so many of them without resistance? Could the same ever happen in our country? The police and military from our country are composed of all of us. Which would mean that the police and military would be killing their own.

Solzhenitsyn said he and others used to sit around the gulags asking themselves why they didn’t kill the secret service goons that came to get them.

When it comes time, the police and military will kill you. Because first you will have been vilified. What see Waco, Ruby Ridge, the MOVE people in Philly, and on and on.

That’s why the language being used by American leftists to describe their opposition is downright frightening. They are basically Stalinists.

I am quite familiar with all three you cite (and have read books on the first two on your list).

However, two points. From the point of view of today you are citing three things that happened over nearly the last 40 years or so, with the last one happening about 30 years ago? So not exactly a pattern of behavior. Plus, in the case of both Waco and Ruby Ridge the results were not the result of some concerted government effort but the use of poor judgment on part of a few on the ground. Finally, in the case of Waco the government allowed that to go for weeks on end before whoever made the decision to do what eventually happened. And, if I am remembering correctly the decision was based upon faulty information.

Also, I do not remember the Jews having guns in their houses when the Nazi's came to get them. With so many people owning guns in our country it'd not be such an easy task for our government.

And, tangentially, how was Saddam able to act in the way he did with his populace since it seemed that once we were in a war with Iraq that everyone and his brother had an AK-47?

[boglerdude]

We just saw how it happens. 30-50% of the country would have allowed "the unvaxxed" to be taken to camps.

"we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?... The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.”
[Solzhenitsyn , The Gulag Archipelago]

[I Shrugged]

We just saw how it happens. 30-50% of the country would have allowed "the unvaxxed" to be taken to camps.

"we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?... The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.”
[Solzhenitsyn , The Gulag Archipelago]

Great post.

[barrett]

We just saw how it happens. 30-50% of the country would have allowed "the unvaxxed" to be taken to camps.

While the divide and lack of decency between the vaxxers and unvaxxed was troubling at times, I think the above is a huge exaggeration. It's giving too much weight to an ultra-left position that us vaxxed centrists would have shot down.

[yankees60]

We just saw how it happens. 30-50% of the country would have allowed "the unvaxxed" to be taken to camps.

While the divide and lack of decency between the vaxxers and unvaxxed was troubling at times, I think the above is a huge exaggeration. It's giving too much weight to an ultra-left position that us vaxxed centrists would have shot down.

Agree with you!

[dualstow]

I agree, too.
So, what's going on in Ukraine today?

[Benko]

While the divide and lack of decency between the vaxxers and unvaxxed was troubling at times, I think the above is a huge exaggeration. It's giving too much weight to an ultra-left position that us vaxxed centrists would have shot down.

Do you think history validates this i.e. moderates prevent horrible things from happening?

[I Shrugged]

While the divide and lack of decency between the vaxxers and unvaxxed was troubling at times, I think the above is a huge exaggeration. It's giving too much weight to an ultra-left position that us vaxxed centrists would have shot down.

Do you think history validates this i.e. moderates prevent horrible things from happening?

No.

[I Shrugged]

This is a few days old, but it describes the best-case end to the Ukraine war.

Here are the first 2 of 12 points:

I’ll stick my neck out and make several prognostications:

Russia is heading for an outright defeat in Ukraine. Russian planning was incompetent, based on a flawed assumption that Ukrainians were favorable to Russia and that their military would collapse immediately following an invasion. Russian soldiers were evidently carrying dress uniforms for their victory parade in Kyiv rather than extra ammo and rations. Putin at this point has committed the bulk of his entire military to this operation—there are no vast reserves of forces he can call up to add to the battle. Russian troops are stuck outside various Ukrainian cities where they face huge supply problems and constant Ukrainian attacks.
The collapse of their position could be sudden and catastrophic, rather than happening slowly through a war of attrition. The army in the field will reach a point where it can neither be supplied nor withdrawn, and morale will vaporize. This is at least true in the north; the Russians are doing better in the south, but those positions would be hard to maintain if the north collapses.

https://www.americanpurpose.com/article ... or-defeat/

I hope I’m wrong but I’ll take the other side. Putin will double down, and bomb the crap out of the cities trying to force a solution that he can sell to his country.

[Vil]

Yes, indeed guys - keep commenting the ultra-lefts and do not bother about things you hardly understand. It's like I do comment the Super Bowl or the quality of Texas veal. The war is the same as it was 3 weeks ago - man dying and their families are spread around Poland, Moldova, Romania and Bulgaria. Haven't heard much of a Russian speech since my childhood, but now that's fact - immigrants from Ukraine will(are already?) be approximately the size of the 4th or 5th Bulgarian city. But Poland is really hit massively by the immigrant wave.

[dualstow]

How do you see this conflict ending, Vil? You know more than most of us, and I respect your opinion.

[pp4me4]

Just thought I'd drop in to comment on this thread but not staying long.

Here is a post I'll title as "Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God"...



Also, I read somewhere today about a museum of mustard somewhere, I think it was in Wisconsin and I couldn't help but wonder why we should have anything against the folks who make mustard or the vodka in Russia. Then I watched this over and over and wondered if we both push the nuclear buttons, were we really that much different. And for the record I think their anthem is much more beautiful than ours.

https://youtu.be/VJcnuZB4Xt4

[Benko]

Yes, indeed guys - keep commenting the ultra-lefts and do not bother about things you hardly understand. It's like I do comment the Super Bowl or the quality of Texas veal. The war is the same as it was 3 weeks ago

The war is horrible and going on.

Covid is still killing people.

But what else is going on? Unlike pre-covid,, the ones who do not believe in conspiracy theories....

[Vil]

How do you see this conflict ending, Vil? You know more than most of us, and I respect your opinion.

Of course, nobody knows the what the future brings (that's why there is such a gyro forum ). Though certainly the smell of this war has been floating around since several years and many people had the feeling it's just a matter of time. It's rather complex to be honest, as its the battle of 2 enormous propaganda machines. And if someone is telling me his/her opinion is not a product of any sort of propaganda, yeah .. you know. I will tell you a bit of my personal story and why this is not always black and white and more complex than it seems on the surface. To start from the very beginning... My father has a kind of a Russian name, which is definitely not one of the traditional names we use here in the nearby geographical region. My grandma liked it while reading Russian book (of course), and the story began. My father was born and raised in country (I know I am repeating myself) that was considered the 16th state of USSR as our government was so loyal to Moscow. So he grew with that propaganda all around him. While he was (and still is) extremely intelligent person, he still believes that the tens of tomes Большая советская энциклопедия (Great Soviet Encyclopedia, one should have shelves of massive wood in order to hold that load of a book...) are still up-to-date and better place for obtaining any information than Wikipedia. While certainly this huge work of the Russian academics is worth, you can imagine - all the information inside.. comes with .. yes, you got it - another portion of propaganda. FFWD to nowadays, I just had a brief talk with him during the first days of the war, and as you can imagine he was stating -

well, Russian folks cannot keep having all those rockets just 15 minutes flight away from their biggest cities, they have to take precautionary measures to let Ukraine know about that

...
On the other hand you have me - my English is way better than my Russian and I was mostly wearing Nikes/Reeboks than Russian leather shoes in my life. Can keep giving the arguments about it for longer, but I am sure you get the idea - I am just a product of another propaganda machine that came after the Communist government fell.
As Carlos Castaneda insightfully concluded - there is little to none reason to argue with an adult that is well over his/her middle-age. That's why I don't do it with my father. Only thing I am sure about - there are other possible approaches of making your way through (and getting your voice heard), and that certainly exclude killing people... However, if you have the Russian TV turned on for 5 minutes, you will get that according to Putin there were no other means to have their voice heard. So we're back to square A1.