A Good Argument for Safe Deposit Boxes

[dualstow]

Man lost wife to cancer, then thieves stole her ashes

burglars invaded Mogck's home and carted off a bedroom safe. It contained Mogck's collection of rare gold and silver coins, $4,000 in cash and all his important documents.
...
The morning of the theft, a man knocked on Mogck's front door and said the city had hired him to trim trees limbs near power lines. The man wanted to inspect the property line behind Mogck's house. Up the block, a tree service was loudly running chopped branches through a wood chipper. Mogck never thought to ask for identification.

"I heard the trucks. I assumed he was with them," he says. "I should've asked for proof."
...

"I blame myself," he says. "My concentration hasn't been good."

How could it be, for a man still mourning the love of his life? His shoulders sag in shame. For 40 years, he'd been a roofer, a careful man proud of his ability to assess risk then plan wisely. It wasn't like him to allow a stranger into his house. He is bewildered by his own actions.

Heartbreaking story. Well, have a nice day. And get yourself a box at the bank.
http://articles.philly.com/2013-02-08/n ... work-ashes

[notsheigetz]

I actually think the saddest part of that story was ...

"Her ashes are all I care about"

I lost my wife to cancer about 13 years ago. Call me heartless but I gave her ashes to my kids. They sprinkled them over Lake Buena Vista at Disneyworld. She always liked it there.

To all the thieves out there, I don't have any gold but if I did it would be in a safety deposit box at the bank just like the title of this post suggests so there is no point in looking in my house. And if you decide to look any way you will find all the gold in the safe in my bedroom along with a large stash of cash so please grab it and run.

[Reub]

Likewise, notsheigetz. I think it might not be a bad idea to keep one or two inexpensive safes around and fill them with some junk so that the burglars are thrown off the scent.

For me, a safe deposit box is the only option. But not too close to the ocean!

[dualstow]

Likewise, notsheigetz. I think it might not be a bad idea to keep one or two inexpensive safes around and fill them with some junk so that the burglars are thrown off the scent.

I have daydreamed about that, too. But what if they come back angry?

[Pointedstick]

Likewise, notsheigetz. I think it might not be a bad idea to keep one or two inexpensive safes around and fill them with some junk so that the burglars are thrown off the scent.

I have daydreamed about that, too. But what if they come back angry?

Not likely given typical criminal psychology. But if they do, a dog and a gun will serve nicely. In fact, I'd wager that combination would likely prevent the initial break-in, too.

[notsheigetz]

Likewise, notsheigetz. I think it might not be a bad idea to keep one or two inexpensive safes around and fill them with some junk so that the burglars are thrown off the scent.

I have daydreamed about that, too. But what if they come back angry?

Well, how about a safe that explodes when opened leaving nobody left to come back angry.

Perhaps someone can think of a less violent surprise waiting inside that might be almost as effective.

[AgAuMoney]

Well, how about a safe that explodes when opened leaving nobody left to come back angry.

Perhaps someone can think of a less violent surprise waiting inside that might be almost as effective.

You need to be careful leaving "booby traps".  In many jurisdictions they are illegal even if a crime must be committed to reach them (e.g. trespass).  In the U.S. even if not illegal in your jurisdiction they are typically very damaging in a civil liability case.  Don't count on liability insurance if you set a booby trap. Some liability policies even have explicit clauses denying coverage if a booby trap is present.  In other policies it is implicitly covered in deliberate hazard or even via attractive nuisance clauses.

But at least in my area, nobody would think twice if a rarely accessed container were found to be colonized by german yellowjackets (Vespula germanica).  In much of the southern U.S. africanized honeybees may also pose a colonization problem.

[dualstow]

I have daydreamed about that {home safes full of junk as a decoy}, too. But what if they come back angry?

Not likely given typical criminal psychology. But if they do, a dog and a gun will serve nicely. In fact, I'd wager that combination would likely prevent the initial break-in, too.

Well, the initial "break-in" in this case was socially engineered. The only defense would have been to not grow old and develop confusion or dementia. ;-) But, it would certainly help thwart a return visit.

Booby traps: Many years ago some guy was in the paper because a thief kept breaking into a shed he had out in the woods, despite padlocks and chains. He finally booby-trapped it with a shotgun or some long gun and then posted a clear warning about the trap. Thief broke in, got shot in the chest, died. Shed owner was arrested.

There was quite an uproar afterwards, with most citizens supporting the shed owner. I'm not sure what the final outcome was.

[MediumTex]

I have daydreamed about that {home safes full of junk as a decoy}, too. But what if they come back angry?

Not likely given typical criminal psychology. But if they do, a dog and a gun will serve nicely. In fact, I'd wager that combination would likely prevent the initial break-in, too.

Well, the initial "break-in" in this case was socially engineered. The only defense would have been to not grow old and develop confusion or dementia. ;-) But, it would certainly help thwart a return visit.

Booby traps: Many years ago some guy was in the paper because a thief kept breaking into a shed he had out in the woods, despite padlocks and chains. He finally booby-trapped it with a shotgun or some long gun and then posted a clear warning about the trap. Thief broke in, got shot in the chest, died. Shed owner was arrested.

There was quite an uproar afterwards, with most citizens supporting the shed owner. I'm not sure what the final outcome was.

The problem with booby traps is that in criminal law a self-defense defense relies upon a determination of the killer's state of mind (Did he feel threatened?  Did the force used align with permitted uses of force under the state's self-defense statutory provisions?) .  With a booby trap it's technically impossible to have the necessary state of mind for a self-defense argument because the trap acts without thinking, and thus it's very hard to fit a booby trap scenario into traditional criminal law categories, even if the end result seems justified. 

Usually, a grand jury will decline to indict or the prosecutor will decline to pursue a case if the facts are obviously in favor of the use of some kind of force, but technically a booby trap that results in death (and which was designed to deliver deadly force) would always be an offense that would minimally be considered voluntary manslaughter and could rise to the level of premeditated murder with no self-defense arguments available to the accused.

There are also very good public policy reasons to discourage the use of booby traps, principally based upon the fact that children, livestock (booby traps are often deployed in remote rural areas where livestock is present) or other innocent parties could easily be harmed by them.

[notsheigetz]

The problem with booby traps is that in criminal law a self-defense defense relies upon a determination of the killer's state of mind (Did he feel threatened?  Did the force used align with permitted uses of force under the state's self-defense statutory provisions?) .  With a booby trap it's technically impossible to have the necessary state of mind for a self-defense argument because the trap acts without thinking, and thus it's very hard to fit a booby trap scenario into traditional criminal law categories, even if the end result seems justified. 

I would never actually do what I suggested due to the potential for collateral damage. And even if I could know for sure that only the thief would be killed or injured it does tend to violate the "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" principle of justice. Death and maiming for stealing my gold would probably not be proportional.

A better option would be a fake exploding device with an LED display that would start ticking down the seconds as soon as the safe was opened - accompanied with a video recording device that would immediately upload the thief's reaction to a youtube video and a GPS tracking device that would alert the police. 

[Pointedstick]

A better option would be a fake exploding device with an LED display that would start ticking down the seconds as soon as the safe was opened - accompanied with a video recording device that would immediately upload the thief's reaction to a youtube video and a GPS tracking device that would alert the police.

You could probably add a sprayer that doused the thief with that indelible purple ink they use to prevent fraud in elections elsewhere in the world.

[WildAboutHarry]

You could probably add a sprayer that doused the thief with that indelible purple ink they use to prevent fraud in elections elsewhere in the world.

Or see the bank robbery get-away scene in Raising Arizona.

[Ad Orientem]

Conceding that there is no infallibly safe storage method, I am a big champion of safe deposit boxes for all but really large quantities of gold. They are the lowest risk form of storage that I have run across so far. If you have the good fortune to be very wealthy then I'd probably stop after filling a couple of SDBs (at separate banks) and put the rest in either a bullion account or just use IAU.

[rickb]

If you have the good fortune to be very wealthy then I'd probably stop after filling a couple of SDBs (at separate banks) and put the rest in either a bullion account or just use IAU.

You're talking VERY wealthy here.  A standard (small) 3x5 box will hold something like 50 tubes of 1oz coins (1000 coins) worth $1.6M (and weighing nearly 70 pounds) - so two boxes is enough for a $10M portfolio.  Even with "only" that much, I'd probably spread it around among more than two banks (and more than one city).  I'd think 10 boxes in different banks and at least 2 different cities would be fairly manageable for up to a $50M portfolio.  Beyond that other arrangements would need to be made.  Of course, maybe that's what you meant by "very wealthy".

[rocketdog]

I think it might not be a bad idea to keep one or two inexpensive safes around and fill them with some junk so that the burglars are thrown off the scent.

Maybe put the "decoy" safe somewhere easy to find and toss in a handful of counterfeit coins.  If you're ever confronted again by the thiefs (highly unlikely), you can express your natural dismay as you realize for the first time that you had been ripped off long before the burglars ever arrived on the scene. 

[MediumTex]

A wise merchant appears penniless.

[Ad Orientem]

If you have the good fortune to be very wealthy then I'd probably stop after filling a couple of SDBs (at separate banks) and put the rest in either a bullion account or just use IAU.

You're talking VERY wealthy here.  A standard (small) 3x5 box will hold something like 50 tubes of 1oz coins (1000 coins) worth $1.6M (and weighing nearly 70 pounds) - so two boxes is enough for a $10M portfolio.  Even with "only" that much, I'd probably spread it around among more than two banks (and more than one city).  I'd think 10 boxes in different banks and at least 2 different cities would be fairly manageable for up to a $50M portfolio.  Beyond that other arrangements would need to be made.  Of course, maybe that's what you meant by "very wealthy".

It's a judgment call on where to draw the line. Personally I would likely keep no more than a couple of million in SDB's before switching to a bullion account or IAU. And I agree that you don't want to overload an SDB with too many coins.

[murphy_p_t]

i fully agree w/ not keeping any valuables near your person or residence.

[Coffee]

Likewise, notsheigetz. I think it might not be a bad idea to keep one or two inexpensive safes around and fill them with some junk so that the burglars are thrown off the scent.

I have daydreamed about that, too. But what if they come back angry?

Not likely given typical criminal psychology. But if they do, a dog and a gun will serve nicely. In fact, I'd wager that combination would likely prevent the initial break-in, too.

A dog and a gun?  How about a gun and a shovel??

By the way: I keep all of my gold-- literally boxes and boxes-- at MediumTex's house.