Homeownership is Overrated

[moda0306]

The thing is, people usually have a pretty good idea of these things when they are young, which is why they are all apt to buy into the "throwing money away on rent" mantra.  They don't like their rents rising, or their land-lord not fixing stuff, or not being able to upgrade their apartment.

I will never give up the right to have complete control over the place I live in unless it becomes a financial necessity. It may cost me a bit of $ in the long run, but it carries an intangible value that is priceless to me.

That's good that you get that value.  And I'd doubt it would cost you more compared to the apples-to-apples cost of renting a very similar home.

The problem is, the way people position their home within their cash-flow/budget, it controls them more than they control it.  And they justify it with the word "intangible" when they want to justify a decision they've already made.

What things about the place you live are so important for you to control?

[doodle]

Firstly, ownership is just a myth anyways. All property is on lease from the government (society)...if you think you really own your property try not paying taxes on it for a couple of years.

Anyways, that aside I personally prefer homeownership to renting because besides taxes, it allows me to project future expenditures more accurately. I bought a small condo about halfway through the crash...I'm probably 3/4 of the way back to the amount that I paid for it but in the meantime I have had a nice, safe, clean place to live for a steady 700 dollars a month total (250 dollars of which goes towards principal) In the meantime rents downtown where I live have taken off as moving into the city has become much more popular. A similar quality apartment to mine would rent for nearly 1000 dollars.

When I finally get my house built and move out I will sell this place because I don't want to be a landlord but even if I don't recoup all my costs and make a profit on the sale I will still emerge ahead of where I would have been had I been a renter. Also, the fact that I have control over the future house I am building means I can tailor it to my needs. By keeping it small and simple I can control my tax and insurance bill as well as future maintenance costs.

Homeownership is better than renting in my opinion unless your employment situation is unstable or you are unsure about what type of family/lifestyle you want to have. For people that are pretty steady eddy I don't really see much downside.

[MachineGhost]

LOL!  Here's two interesting articles:

The Upsides of Downsizing Your Home
Moving to smaller digs frees you from the cost and time commitment of a house you no longer need.

http://www.kiplinger.com/article/real-e ... -home.html

I found this sentence particularly interesting: "He suggests that they look at newly redeveloped suburban town centers that offer urban amenities."  I'm real skeptical that can be pulled off without it being urban creep, but I could see it happening in all those Midwest pseudo-ghost towns (you know, where Woolworth's used to be).
 

The High Roller, set to make its debut in 2014, and the surrounding Linq “party district,”? opening in stages starting in December, represent Las Vegas’s latest bid to reinvent itself for low-rolling tourists who’ve grown stingy at the blackjack tables. The $550 million project is transforming the neighborhood into a pedestrian-friendly dining, gambling, and shopping experience, anchored by an observation wheel that Caesars says could outdraw the London Eye observation wheel or the Empire State Building. Despite being in one of the Strip’s prime locations, it’s a relatively low-stakes wager that reflects the reduced circumstances of gaming operators.

[emphasis added]

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/20 ... attraction

[MachineGhost]

I think the real point is that everybody needs to find what works best for their own tastes and preferences. Some people like giving up a certain amount of control for others to do things for them, even if it might cost more or the results might be worse. Other people prefer to do things themselves and have some space… even if it might cost more or the results might be worse!

You forgot the ridiculously close proximity to neighbors left right up down so you have to walk an eternal tightrope about noise, put up with offensive and undefinable odors, possibly cockroaches, etc..  So I suppose a suburban stand-alone townhouse-style home packed sardines in a can fashion de jour is still better than living in an apartment.  But generally, people with wealth don't live in cramped, skanky apartment complexes at worst (minorities or lower-middle income types do).  Although I do wonder exactly what kind of people (and how is there so freaking many?) are they that spend $1-$2 million just buying an apartment in downtown urban metro areas.  I feel sooo left out.  Where is all this overwealth coming from when the world has a dearth of intelligent people?!!  Grrr.

[MachineGhost]

My response - "I like renting and don't like borrowing money anyway so I don't care, screw them".

Landlords and rental managers check your credit history, so it can seriously affect your ability to not be forced to rent in relatively skankier locations.  There's also official rebuttals that employers are not legally allowed to do so for job applicants, but I wouldn't trust that.  I completely trashed my credit due to the dot.com bubble implosion and had to go underground into hiding...  that was at least a seven LONG years.  Never again.

But yeah, I agree with you.  A lot of what passes for cultural brainwashing nowadays is largely of women's doing, whether conscious or unconscious.  It's just getting worse with the ongoing, relentless effemination of men by the media.  It's fine to be progressive and forward-thinking, but not a pussywhipped beta male!

I'm happier not being responsible for a home and being a bachelor, because I value freedom from constraints, compromise and other people's inane B.S. a lot more than putting up with the suffocating demands of social expectations.  I won't lie and say I don't ever feel left out at times -- I do, but it is still a choice that I was originally free to make.  Even if physical freedom is largely an illusion nowadays, not having a ball and chain or monkey on your back is priceless.  What's the difference between a cubicle monkey and a pussywhipped man?  Nothing.

Women in general are too irrational and cause too much stress, wasted time and sweat the most ridiculous small stuff.  Who needs all that B.S.ing drama?  People like PS are very, very lucky, but he had to find his libertarian wife in the armpit of all places.

[MachineGhost]

To your list, I would add that I don't like doormen watching when we come and go. I'm grateful for the sneaky side exit, even though they're all very nice and friendly. At home there's no guard other than the burglar alarm, no elevator and no waiting. (On the flipside, this building seems to be full of beautiful young women who are always getting ready to jog or are just coming home from jogging. But, I'd still rather be home).

I need to come pay you a visit.  You sure sound like you live in Shangri-La!  Finding an urban location without all the urban negatives is the Holy Grail in my book.

[Mark Leavy]

My response - "I like renting and don't like borrowing money anyway so I don't care, screw them".

Landlords and rental managers check your credit history, so it can seriously affect your ability to not be forced to rent in relatively skankier locations.  There's also official rebuttals that employers are not legally allowed to do so for job applicants, but I wouldn't trust that.  I completely trashed my credit due to the dot.com bubble implosion and had to go underground into hiding...  that was at least a seven LONG years.  Never again.

But yeah, I agree with you.  A lot of what passes for cultural brainwashing nowadays is largely of women's doing, whether conscious or unconscious.  It's just getting worse with the ongoing, relentless effemination of men by the media.  It's fine to be progressive and forward-thinking, but not a pussywhipped beta male!

I'm happier not being responsible for a home and being a bachelor, because I value freedom from constraints, compromise and other people's inane B.S. a lot more than putting up with the suffocating demands of social expectations.  I won't lie and say I don't ever feel left out at times -- I do, but it is still a choice that I was originally free to make.  Even if physical freedom is largely an illusion nowadays, not having a ball and chain or monkey on your back is priceless.  What's the difference between a cubicle monkey and a pussywhipped man?  Nothing.

Women in general are too irrational and cause too much stress, wasted time and sweat the most ridiculous small stuff.  Who needs all that B.S.ing drama?  People like PS are very, very lucky, but he had to find his libertarian wife in the armpit of all places.

The world is a changing...

I live in AirBnB and Hotels.  Online reputation and a functioning debit card are all that I require.  I don't screw anyone over and my debit card always works.  Credit scores will be passé by the time I die.  Public reputation and pay as you go work.

My housing expenses are less than the maintenance and property taxes on the home I owned in Portland.

As far as a good woman goes... yeah.  Very hard to find.  But not impossible.  I agree with Harry.  The primary reason to state your opinion is not to change the world, but to advertise who you are.  Like minded people will pick up on it.  Some of those people are women.

[Kshartle]

My response - "I like renting and don't like borrowing money anyway so I don't care, screw them".

Landlords and rental managers check your credit history, so it can seriously affect your ability to not be forced to rent in relatively skankier locations.  There's also official rebuttals that employers are not legally allowed to do so for job applicants, but I wouldn't trust that.  I completely trashed my credit due to the dot.com bubble implosion and had to go underground into hiding...  that was at least a seven LONG years.  Never again.

But yeah, I agree with you.  A lot of what passes for cultural brainwashing nowadays is largely of women's doing, whether conscious or unconscious.  It's just getting worse with the ongoing, relentless effemination of men by the media.  It's fine to be progressive and forward-thinking, but not a pussywhipped beta male!

Yeah it's a small bill, I have zero debt, plenty of assets, excellent credit otherwise, good income. It's just annoying.

Men have backed down and let women take the lead role in a lot of areas. I think this has been to everyone's detriment and I think it has to do with women no longer needing men for support because of the state. Now they no longer need men who are put together and responsible and manly to care for them, so guys no longer aspire to that because it doesn't really help you get laid.

[dualstow]

I envy you, Mark, but don't you get tired of checking in and checking out all time?

To your list, I would add that I don't like doormen watching when we come and go. I'm grateful for the sneaky side exit, even though they're all very nice and friendly. At home there's no guard other than the burglar alarm, no elevator and no waiting. (On the flipside, this building seems to be full of beautiful young women who are always getting ready to jog or are just coming home from jogging. But, I'd still rather be home).

I need to come pay you a visit.  You sure sound like you live in Shangri-La!  Finding an urban location without all the urban negatives is the Holy Grail in my book.

Honestly, the house is the real Shangri-La, even if it's practically surrounded by bad neighborhoods. The apartment is convenient, with perks like email notifications when you get a package. However, it's not nearly as quiet with regard to traffic. I'm twenty floors up and I can hear sirens and construction. I look forward to returning to the house, where I hear birds instead of car alarms. (Sometimes there's noise when neighbors are remodeling, but finally *I'm* the culprit this year).

[WiseOne]

Heh, whoops.

Let me of course say that I'm not against home ownership. I own a mortgage-free home that I very much enjoy living in and working on.

REALLY?  When did you buy, PS?  I must have missed that.  Good for you.

Ownership has definitely worked out well for me - but it has nothing to do with the price of real estate.  Instead, it's the math of monthly costs of owning vs renting.  For owning, it's total costs (mortgage, insurance, maintenance, taxes) minus what you pay into equity minus tax reimbursements.  In my case, the amount of money that goes out the window each month, never to return, is something on the order of half what I'd be spending on rent for an equivalent place, even though the actual monthly outlay is greater than rent.  (It would actually be less even before the aforementioned exclusions if I hadn't gone for a 15 year mortgage).

The math of renting may work out better in some cases if you have your equity invested in something that beats real estate price increases over time.  But it's really hard to make predictions, especially about the future 

[WiseOne]

Women in general are too irrational and cause too much stress, wasted time and sweat the most ridiculous small stuff.

Ummm...Moderator please???

[moda0306]

Women in general are too irrational and cause too much stress, wasted time and sweat the most ridiculous small stuff.

Ummm...Moderator please???

I simultaneously second both your comments.



If this helps, guys (on average) are emotional and irrational/stupid in different ways. 

We all let emotions drive our decisions and justify it with $hitty logic after the fact.  A guy might buy a house on a bunch of land as a "logical investment to hedge against inflation & the coming apocolypse" or whatever, but it's obviously a response to his emotional desire to "conquer" something, shoot his gun when he wants, and have a feeling of autonomy.  Financially, I could easily show him his decision had a lot of holes in it, and risks galore.

Not to get too raw, but...

Women will "just not feel it" because the room is painted the wrong f*kin' color or you implied you didn't like her $250 hair-cut/color a few days ago.  You tell a guy you don't like his hair, he'll respond, "you still wanna b@ng though, right?"

We're both stupid at times.  Just in very different ways.  And we both like to rationalize it after the fact.  Men, more than women, because they see themselves as more stoic than women... unbothered by certain things.  Except they're bothered in irrational ways by things women are not, usually. They like houses too, but for different reasons.  It's a sense of ownership, accomplishment, and a sense that we've conquered something.  Not something to decorate and nest in.

[Kshartle]

Women in general are too irrational and cause too much stress, wasted time and sweat the most ridiculous small stuff.

Ummm...Moderator please???

What he meant was you guys express your emotions more freely, take care of all the details that we guys miss and that we stress sometimes because we want you to be happy.

And most of us like it when ladies sweat....even if it is over small stuff! 

[dualstow]

Ummm...Moderator please???

Where is Mr L anyway? He didn't leave us for Yahoo!Message Boards, did he?

[WiseOne]

Maybe having to explain his moderator gig to Mrs. L?

Women are as perfectly capable of being rational AND irrational as men.  That said, I think I'll go back to being irrational now.  It's definitely more fun than rationality, especially if it annoys the guys.

[Lowe]

Women in general are too irrational and cause too much stress, wasted time and sweat the most ridiculous small stuff.

Ummm...Moderator please???

I simultaneously second both your comments.



If this helps, guys (on average) are emotional and irrational/stupid in different ways. 

Yeah, like when they went and invented calculus, air conditioning, and civilization.  Clearly men and women are equally irrational.

[dragoncar]

Maybe having to explain his moderator gig to Mrs. L?

Women are as perfectly capable of being rational AND irrational as men.  That said, I think I'll go back to being irrational now.  It's definitely more fun than rationality, especially if it annoys the guys.

Interesting avatar for someone who gets upset about gender sterotypes

[Pointedstick]

If this helps, guys (on average) are emotional and irrational/stupid in different ways. 

Yeah, like when they went and invented calculus, air conditioning, and civilization.  Clearly men and women are equally irrational.

And the brass bull, and the atom bomb, and slavery, and genocide, and ...

This isn't where we want to go, guys. Don't fight gender wars. There are no winners.

[dragoncar]

If this helps, guys (on average) are emotional and irrational/stupid in different ways. 

Yeah, like when they went and invented calculus, air conditioning, and civilization.  Clearly men and women are equally irrational.

And the brass bull, and the atom bomb, and slavery, and genocide, and ...

This isn't where we want to go, guys. Don't fight gender wars. There are no winners.

How are you supposed to know? Fucking men like you built the hydrogen bomb. Men like you thought it up. You think you're so creative. You don't know what it's like to really create something; to create a life; to feel it growing inside you. All you know how to create is death.

[dualstow]

Only in this forum will a thread about Homeownership vs Rental included a quote from Terminator 2.

[WildAboutHarry]

[quote=dualstow]Only in this forum will a thread about Homeownership vs Rental included a quote from Terminator 2.[/quote]

And include signatures with obscure Steely Dan lyrics

[Pointedstick]

Terminator 2 is the best. Anytime you're thinking poorly of women, I suggest watching it and paying particular attention to Sarah Connor.

[Kshartle]

Looks good with an AK

[moda0306]

Terminator 2 is the best. Anytime you're thinking poorly of women, I suggest watching it and paying particular attention to Sarah Connor.

Her character transformation from 1 to 2 is wonderous.

[WiseOne]

There you go!  Now THAT is decisive action.

Let me be clear here:  I asked for the anti-female rhetoric to be toned down in order to keep this forum welcoming to women who might want to participate in an online investing and financial forum focused (positively) on the Permanent Portfolio.  I'm sure you have all noticed how few women post here, and it seems to be getting worse not better.  I am sure the comments were not at all intended to be misogynist but I'm equally sure you can appreciate how they might be taken that way.

And no, I'm not asking for "political correctness" in all things, just a little sensitivity to who might be reading your posts.